Romance in S5

[LadyLavinia]

I was reading Jenoff's review of "The Girl in Question". I ignored the Spike/Angel arc about Buffy, because frankly I wasn't intersted. But the discussion on Wes and Fred/Illyria did grab my interest.

I have never . . . never understood Wesley's love for Fred - even after he had regained his memories of Season 4. I will never understood why Whedon tries and tries to make Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker a screen team. Nor could I understand why Wesley had continued to mope over Fred, even after he had regained his memory of the conversation they had in S4's "Players" (the conversation began with the topic of Connor and Cordelia), when he seemed to have an ephipany that Fred was not the woman for him.

Why? And why are so many people ga-ga over this pairing? Is this a sign that people, in general, harbor immature ideas about love?

[Jacklyn]

Could you please explain to me what is immature about Wesely and Fred's relationship? I've never understood your issue with them and I'm curious to understand.

[Hitome]

LadyLavinia, I am so glad that I finally found someone else on this board who dislikes the Wesley/Fred pairing.

I think I understand Wesley's feelings for Fred and frankly they are scary. Wesley is obsessed with her. When Fred was dating Gunn, Wesley became openly hostile to him. In other words Wesley thought because he wanted Fred no one else should have her. That’s treating a woman like a possession in my book.

Even when he was dating Lilah, Wesley was obsessed with Fred. When Lilah dressed up like Fred to tease him and get him to say that he like her better, Wesley told her to “leave the glasses on” and then ripped Lilah’s shirt open. He was fanaticizing about screwing Fred while having sex with Lilah. Personally I find that very disturbing.

Also, Wesley has an authoritarian edge. He thinks that he is always right and doesn’t listen to other people’s opinions or ask for their advice. Personally, having dealt with someone with similar tendencies I can say that Wesley has the potential to get very possessive and controlling in a relationship. Since he already thought Fred was “his” before he started dating her, their relationship disturbs me immensely. I’m afraid that if they stayed together he would try to control her life after the first weeks of giddy love ended. Fred and Gunn was a much more mature relationship than Fred and Wes in my opinion. I like Wesley but the last thing he needs is to get Fred. Unless Wesley gets over his obsession that relationship can only end in pain, also I’m not sure how much he can love Fred if he is fixated on her.

If Wesley was to grow as a character he required a mature relationship. Lilah was good because she needed him and loved him and I think he loved her although he was afraid to admit it. I even would not have minded Wesley and Illyria. Even if Illyria has Fred’s soul, and I think she does, she isn’t Fred, and Wesley can’t harm her the same way he can Fred. In my opinion, Illyria loved him. The only way I wanted to see a Wesley/Fred relationship is if he dated Illyria. Why don’t you like Wesley/Fred, LadyLavinia?

[LadyLavinia]

Hithome,

You explained it perfectly. May I also add that neither Wesley or Fred seemed to really understand each other. They had immature and romanticized visions of each other. Actually, Fred had romanticized visions of all the men she was in love with - including Angel and Gunn. Every time that Fred was confronted with Wes' dark side, she dismissed it. Pretended that it didn't exist. See "Billy" and "Lineage". And she had reacted childishly to the knowledge of Wes' affair with Lilah. I got the feeling that after five years of being alone in Pylea, Fred was desperate to be with someone . . . to beat back the loneliness. Watch her reaction to Gunn's brief death in "Ground State". She practically said it herself.

As for Wes, he put Fred on a pedestal. His feelings for Fred seemed to be a disturbing mixture of idolized love, adolescent love and paternal love. If it weren't for the fact that they weren't related, one could easily view Wes' feelings for Fred as incestuous. Watch how he is with her in "A Hole in the World". Very paternal.

Personally, I believe that either Lilah Morgan or Virginia Bryce would have made a better mate for Wes. Lilah understood him better than anyone else (although not completely). And Virginia seemed like the right mixture of Lilah and Fred . . . and perfect for him.

What a waste that after all of that character development by late Season 4, Wes' memory of his conversation with Fred in "Players" was wiped away. In the end, it regressed him back to that disturbing and obssessive love he had for Fred.

[*Screw Destiny*]

Okay, if you two really want to know why so many people are "ga-ga" over Wes/Fred, maybe I can clear it up. I'm a HUGE Fresley shipper, so I can explain.

Okay, I liked Fred/Gunn pretty well, but there was no emotion after a while. It was cute at first, but then it sort of faded off the radar for us. After about six or seven episodes, you baresly knew they were a couple anymore. The only way you knew was by the way Gunn hated Wesley. Gunn was super jealous and he didn't trust Fred. Wes had a poiint in Soulles when he said, "I didn't realize Fred came with a deed." Gunn thought that just because they were dating, Fred couldn't even be nar Wes. That made the couple a lot less attravtive to me, at least.

Also, Wesley always loved Fred. They were so much the same in many ways. They were both smart and they both had the same interests. After Waiting in The Wings I was a bit mad at Fred for picking Gunn. I though that she would be more compatable with Wesley, but it didn't happen that way. Wesley would never hurt Fred, because he worships the ground she walks on. If Fred wanted, she could walk all over him, but she isn't that kind of person.

Wesley would do anything for Fred, including shoot his own father. Wesley has always been there to help Fred when she needed him, and she always went to him and not Gunn. Trust is a key factor in all of this. Trust and feeling Safe. She must have trusted and felt safe with Wesley, or she would not have gone to him. Why didn't she go to Gunn? I think it's because she knew he would go insane. He tends to blow things up past what they are.

I was thrilled in Smile Time because they were finally together, but then it was destroyed by Knox. A Hole in the World proved, to me, that they were meant for each other. When Fred was dying, Wesley held her and did everything he could for her. He really loved her, and that made a lot of people like that couple. He and Lilah were more of an agressive couple, but it wasn't love. If it had time, it may have been, but Wes's feelings for Fred got in the way of that. He really loved Fred.

We really didn't have enough time to see how Fred felt about Wesly, but we know she had feelings for him or she would have never kissed him in Smile Time. If it had lasted, she may have loved him, too. She obciously felt safe with him. The real moment I knew they should be together was when Fred said, "Will You kiss me?" and Wes kissed her, and she said, "Would you have loved me?" That, along with Wesley's answer, made it so clear to me, and many people.

As far as getting his memories back, I don't think it would have changed how he felt about Fred. He had always loved Fred, no matter what happened with Connor. That may have changed the others views of him, but he still loved Fred.

Illyria, to me, made the whole Fred/Wes thing seem settled at the end of the last episode. I'll put this in Sooiler, in case anyone hasn't seen it yet.

She knew Wesley had loved Fred, so when Wesley lay dying in her arms, she brought Fred to life and used Fred's memory to comfort him. She told him Fred had loved him and that they would be together in the end. That made me love Illyria, and so many others did, too. I think they will be together somewhere else, and they will be together in the end.

I hope that clears some of it up for you two. That's my view on things and I think other Fresley shippers can follow what I'm saying.

[Kay]

You all make some really good points, I like Fred/Wesley but I prefer Wes/Lilah because Fred/Wesley seemed a bit fairytale-ish to me, it reminded me of Buffy/Angel. It was sweet but a bit too perfect for my liking.

[LadyLavinia]

The main reasons I never liked Wes/Fred, was because they a) rather adolescent in their romantic view of each other, and that seemed sad for a pair of adults; b) never really understood each other; c) have very little chemistry together, in terms of romance - did make a pair of good friends; d) two introverts as a romantic couple is boring as hell.

The reason Fred trusted Wes? Because she was too stupid to acknowledge his darker side. She had always deliberately closed her eyes to his true nature. And Wes never bothered to her real nature. That was made apparent in his dream, in either episode 5.17 or 5.18.

[*Screw Destiny*]

What do you mean? Fred saw Wesley's darker side, because she has a dark side, too. Might I bring up her professor? But she knew that even with that darkness, he was still a good man. Just like she is still a good woman. If you want to discuss dark sides, you should think about Gunn's dark side, too. Gunn isn't a completely good guy. He means well, but we all have those dark sides. I don't think you can call Fred stupid for knowing that. She trusted Wes because she knew he wouldn't perposely hurt her. In Shiny Happy People, she went to Wesley with the truth about Jasmine. Why not Gunn? She knew she could trust him. How ever, under Jasmine's influence he turned her over, but that wasn't really him. I'm just saying that so many people love them because he was truly and deeply in love with her.

I don't theink it was fairy taleish at all. In a fairy tale it would have been happily ever after, but instead they both died. I don't see that in a disney movie. Also, if it were perfect, she would have picked him to begin with. It wasn't perfect, but they were meant for each other. They brought the best out of each other. It was meant to be.

[Hitome]

The only way you knew was by the way Gunn hated Wesley. Gunn was super jealous and he didn't trust Fred. Wes had a poiint in Soulles when he said, "I didn't realize Fred came with a deed." Gunn thought that just because they were dating, Fred couldn't even be nar Wes. That made the couple a lot less attravtive to me, at least..

I see your point there although I never read Gunn like that. Watch Wesley during the begining of Fred and Gunn's relationship again if you can. I'm not saying that Gunn doesn't have flaws but Wesley is scary. He stares at Fred and assumes he has some kind of right to her because he "loves" her. Then if anyone confronts him he shots off an snide comment in a superior-type voice. His behavior shocked me when I first watched it. I hadn't realized Wesley was such a dark and flawed character.


A Hole in the World proved, to me, that they were meant for each other. When Fred was dying, Wesley held her and did everything he could for her. He really loved her, and that made a lot of people like that couple. He and Lilah were more of an agressive couple, but it wasn't love. If it had time, it may have been, but Wes's feelings for Fred got in the way of that. He really loved Fred.

Really, It proved to me that Welsey was a self-important chauvinist who thought that he had to shield Fred from the reality of he condition. She was dying. He couldn't change that so he conforted her and treated her like a silly child instead of talking to her as an adult and a partner and confronting the situation. You say Wesley did everything he could for her. Why didn't he put her on that plane to the well? At least then he could know that anything there that could help her would be able to help her in time. Long distance rituals usually don't work without strong magic and none of Angel's group is strong magically. More importantly Wesley never talked to Fred about what to do if she died. Instead, he just kept a concealed ax. I personally would like to know that my lover would prevent the demon that is killing me from entering the world if I died. Why then did Wesley not tell Fred about his plan? He wanted her to be "happy" while dying. He didn't trust her to understand. He didn't consider her strong enough to talk about her own death. He didn't respect her as an equal. Instead, he tried uselessly to protect his image of Fred. That's why I don't like Wesley dating Fred or any other woman who is not assertive enough to handle his authoritarian tendencies.

[LadyLavinia]

So, Fred Acknowledges Wes' dark side, huh? After reading the following, I have grave doubts:


From "Billy" (S3):


Fred: "Wesley, you gotta come back to work."

Wes: "How can I?"

Fred: "What do you mean? How can you not? You're the boss. We need you. - You took a few days off. That's good. We all did. - But now it's time to come back."

Wes quietly: "Fred, I tried to kill you."

Fred smiles and shakes her head: "That wasn't you."

Wes: "How can you know that? Something inside me was forced to the surface. Something primal, something..."

Fred: "Do you wanna kill me?"

Wes: "Oh, God, no."

Fred: "It wasn't something in you, Wesley. It was something that was done to you."

Wes: "I don't know what kind of man I am anymore."

Fred: "Well, I do. - You're a good man. - Will I see you back at the office?"



From "Lineage" (S5):

WESLEY (noticing Fred) If you're here to tell me about
how you killed your parents... perhaps it could wait for another time.

FRED What? No. They're fine.(walks toward
Wesley) It's not like you killed your dad, either.

WESLEY Right.

FRED Part of you knew. Even if you can't admit it to
yourself, part of you knew it wasn't him.

WESLEY No. I was sure it was him. You were there. I
killed my father.

FRED He was threatening your friends.

WESLEY (turns to look at her) He was threatening you.
He pointed a gun at you, Fred... so I shot him.

FRED (searching his expression) Wesley...I...


In "Billy", Fred absolutely refused to acknowledge that part of Wes' inner personality had been exposed by Billy's blood. She treated it as if he had been possessed.

In "Lineage", two years later, she tried to dismiss Wes' shooting of RogerBot, by explaining that "somehow" he knew that Roger was a fake. She couldn't even acknowledge that he was willing to commit murder for her. To her relief, Knox appeared before they could talk any further.

Sadly, Fred was just as blind to Wes' darker nature, as Wes was blind to her true nature. If their relationship had continued, sooner or later, both would have been exposed to their true selves . . . and the romance would have probably ended. In fact, I suspect that Fred would have made the first move by doing exactly what she had done to both Gunn and Knox - quietly pushing him away, until he is forced to end the relationship himself.

After "Lineage", I suspect that a part of Fred was thrilled that Wes was still madly in love with her. If there is one thing that Fred loved, it was being the center of someone else's life. Which is why she was so disappointed that Angel did not share her feelings. I'm not going to get into Wes, because I seriously believe that if it were not for the mindwipe, he would have never entered a romance with Fred.

[Jacklyn]

I see some of your points, but I wanted to ask you what part of Fred's nature do you feel Wesley did not understand?

[xtrustno1x]

I was sitting here sifting through this thread and realized that, no matter how many times I hear the pros and cons of Wes/Fred, I'm still undecided. Both sides make absolute sense, however insane that sounds, depending on how you look at it. I think a lot of it has to do with your own personal views on life and love, too. I don't know if I'll ever be able to determine for myself whether or not I liked Wes/Fred. There's this fantasy-driven, "aww"-inducing element to it that makes some people all happy inside. But, there's a dark side to it as well, a dirty little underbelly that neither of them are willing to admit. Maybe that's what makes this all so complicated. Kind of like a mix of Fred/Gunn's fun, puppy-love relationship with Wes/Lilah's twisted relationship in some weird way. I think Wes had the propensity for the kind of sane love most are used to. A lot of people are hung up on his - and her - past actions, but those past actions are an integral part of who we are. Hmmm...all this made more sense in my head, I think...

[LadyLavinia]

I could never get into the "awww" element of Wes and Fred's relationship. I found it too immature for my tastes. And that kind of love seemed too unreal - even for fiction. Like Wes told Fred in "Players" - it (namely love) isn't always about holding hands. Unless one was reading romance for teenagers. And quite frankly, Wes and Fred seemed too old to be constantly acting like a pair of teenagers in love.

I've always regretted that ME never allowed Fred and Gunn to develop their relationship to a more adult level, after their conversation about Siedel's death. Talk about a missed opportunity. Couldn't do anything about Wes and Lilah, since the latter was dead.

[xtrustno1x]

I agree with the love not always being about holding hands. One of the major reasons why I always loved Wes and Lilah. Honestly, I think after awhile, the Wes/Fred relationship would become an utter bore, like Fred/Gunn did. I never really minded that Fred was killed. Made for some good angst. Plus, kick-ass Illyria.

[LadyLavinia]

I agree with the love not always being about holding hands. One of the major reasons why I always loved Wes and Lilah. Honestly, I think after awhile, the Wes/Fred relationship would become an utter bore, like Fred/Gunn did. I never really minded that Fred was killed. Made for some good angst. Plus, kick-ass Illyria.

Actually Fred and Gunn became more interesting, post-Symmestry. It's a shame that ME didn't allow them to develop into a more mature relationship.

I could have done without Illyria. Too Seven-of-Nine for my tastes.

[xtrustno1x]

We just seem to disagree on almost everything, don't we? (well, except for Wes/Lilah)...:P But, I will agree with you that Fred/Gunn would have become more interesting if things had progressed even further than they were allowed to after Symmestry. Personally, I think it was too late for me to get interested in them as a couple by that time anyway, but it still would have made for some interesting viewing.

[LadyLavinia]

It wasn't too late for me. This is why the romances featured in S5 were so disappointing. There were no interesting couples. All we had were Angel and Nina (which barely got off the ground), and Wes and Fred (which was so damn boring and adolescent).


Here's an interesting clip that I came by:


With_You (http://With_You)