Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?

[Emma Caulfield]

I was thinking, Angel was "cursed" with a soul but Spike "won" his soul back. Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?

[eponinethen]

Not really. Spike was "cursed" in a way too, I mean it's not like he chose to have that chip and start fighting vampires and demons instead of humans. If the Initiative had never put that chip in his head he'd never chosen to get his soul back and he had still been that evil vampire. Though I see what you're saying, Spike "turned" good while he was still a vampire without a soul, you could say that he chose to become good, in a way, but not really.. But I don't know if that makes him a better vampire or not..

[Wicca]

spike has a history of doing the craziest things to impress his women, getting a soul for buffy was somewhere on that list as well. there was not a single heroic aspect to him getting himself a soul. he thought he would have better chance in getting through toher this way because angel had a soul. truth is, spike had no ideawhat he was getting himself into. it was an impolsive decision done for the wrong reasons only. you can hardly glorify him after this.

[berkeled]

yes, spikes better his humanity always shone thru even in season 2 he got his soul voluntarily and did a hell of a lot to get , sure you could write it off as something to impress buffy but it was also for himself to be a better man sur he didnt ask for the chip ---- but that just put em' on his intended path ( I hope somebody gets what I'm saying)--- so yaeh I think spikes betta hell sopmebody should...

[Wicca]

well yeah, sure one could "write it off" like he did it for buffy, except for that... that won't be necessary as that was already said on *both* shows (by spike himself among others).

something i thought i should add:

beneath you:

Spike: It's what you wanted, right?
Buffy: Tell me what happened.
Spike: Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her.
Buffy: Your soul. You got your soul back.

get it done:

Spike: Holding back? You're blind. I've been here, right in it - fighting, scrapping...
Buffy: Since you got your soul back?
Spike: Well, as a matter of fact, I haven't quite been relishing the kill the way I used to.
Buffy: You were a better fighter then.
Spike: I did this for you. The soul, the changes - it's what you wanted.
Buffy: What I want is the Spike that's dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill me when we met.

never leave me:

Buffy: How did you do it? How'd you get your soul back?
Spike: Saw a man about a girl. I went to seek a legend out. Traveled to the other side of the world, made a deal with a demon.
Buffy: Just like that?
Spike: No, not just like that. There was a price. There were trials, torture, pain and suffering... of sorts.
Buffy: Of sorts?
Spike: Well, it's all relative, isn't it?
Buffy: Meaning?
Spike: Meaning I have come to redefine the words pain and suffering since I fell in love with you.

destiny:

Spike: Well, that's just it. I am. And you know it. You had a soul forced on you - as a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you'd done. But me... I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do. It's my destiny.
Angel: Really? Heard it was just to get into a girl's pants.

[eponinethen]

truth is, spike had no ideawhat he was getting himself into. it was an impolsive decision done for the wrong reasons only. you can hardly glorify him after this. I agree that he had no idea what he was getting himself into. And sure, he did it for Buffy. But he didn't do it so that he could say "hey Buffy, I've got a soul, love me now". He did it so he could be a better man, the kind of man she deserved. Not just so that she would like him, but so that he would be more worthy of her. Not saying that means he did it to save the word or anything, but he wanted to do good, he wanted to be a "real" man.

[berkeled]

I can do whatever I want to its my opionion, he did it so he would not hurt buffy after he realized his actions and to be a better man---- I'm sure he knew what he was getting into seeking out a legend and going thru a hell of a lot of pain ---- he worked for it , and it should not be thrown under a rug as many people but not all think of Spike sure the ending in Grave it confusing --- but hell what else would have he got cause he could alraedy hurt buffy ---- :


+ I take anything angels says to one not knowing the whole story and jealosy---+ Spike had already gotten into her pants what he wanted even while intheir sexual relationship was to get into her heart ::heart:: wich he did!

[eponinethen]

(When I said he didn't know what he was getting himself into, I didn't mean what he had to do to get his soul back. I meant, he had no idea what would happen to him when he got his soul back, he had no idea what having a soul (again) meant, and what it would feel like. Didn't mean that made him less "brave" (definetly not the right word, heh), or whatever..)

[Wicca]

I can do whatever I want to its my opionion,

ahuh. we're all entitled to have opinions, but i for one, when and if i want mine to be taken seriously, i tend to base it on the cannon (aka facts) instead of ignoring it to make something look better/different.

[Cordelia]

Please stay on topic. We are all entitled to our own opinions. It's pretty much been established here numerous times. Thanks :D

[Slayer,The]

No because he did it for the wrong reasons.

And did Spike even want his soul back? Because personally I thought it looked like he was going to get something to do some damage to Buffy. Especially with his shock when the demon tells him he is going to receive his soul back.

SPIKE: Yeah. I seek you.
DEMON: Something about a woman. The slayer.
SPIKE: (nods, barely concealed anger) Thinks she's better than me. Ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell.
DEMON: And you want to return to your former self.
SPIKE: Yeah.

Close on the green glowing eyes as the demon laughs evilly.

SPIKE: What?
DEMON: Look what she's reduced you to.
SPIKE: It's this bloody chip-
DEMON: You were a legendary dark warrior, and you let yourself be castrated. (Spike looking angry) And you have the audacity to crawl in here and demand restoration?
SPIKE: I'm still a warrior.
DEMON: You're a pathetic excuse for a demon.
SPIKE: (angry) Yeah? I'll show you pathetic. Give me your best shot.
DEMON: You'd never endure the trials required to grant your request.
SPIKE: Do your worst. But when I win ... I want what I came here for.

Spike never says anything about wanting a soul. And if you look at the words in context, it seems like he wants his chip back or something so he can kill Buffy. That is just how I interpreted it though.

[~angelic slayer~]

I don't think that Spike getting his soul makes him a better vampire than Angel really. I mean, Angel didn't really have a choice when he got his soul (he didn't have a say in whether he got it or not) and even though it's obvious that Angel does want to keep his soul so does Spike so I don't think you can use that to say which is a better vamp.

I think they're both just different aspects of a vampire; they're both vamps, same "family", both used to like distruction, both had a thing for Buffy but they're like total opposites. Angel's usually quiet- Spikes louder, Angel broods a lot- Spike, not so much, Angel has dark hair- Spike is a bleach blonde.

But as far as who's a better vamp goes, since vampires are "suppossed" to be evil, blood-thirsty, slayer- killing, creatures of the night I think (to a vampire of course, NOT my opinion!) they'd be kinda "insulting" to the vampire race. (Post souls)

[Jenny]

I have to say, I originally thought he 'might' have been the better vampire for going through the trials, AND for doing it out of love (even though he had no sould when he made the decision to do so).

But after reading some of the other arguments stating he isn't, I'm kind of leaning that way now.

Thanks a bunch guys ;)

[Emma Caulfield]

Spike never says anything about wanting a soul. And if you look at the words in context, it seems like he wants his chip back or something so he can kill Buffy. That is just how I interpreted it though.

Really? I always thought of that as a tease, it made you belive he wanted to become the fully fledged vampire he was before when really he wanted his soul so Buffy could love him like she loved Angel.

[Cookie Dough]

No because Angel and Spike were vampires without souls for over 100 years and neither fought to get their souls back. It took Spike falling in love to do that. So your questions is sort of like "Are people who fall in love better than people who don't fall in love?"

Falling in love makes a person want to be a better person, so naturally Spike would want his soul back.
But Angelus had developed an obsession with Buffy too, the way Spike started out. He wasn't around long enough, maybe he would have fallen with her as well..
So it's unfair to compare because Spikeus was around Buffy a lot longer than Angelus was. We don't know what he would have ended up doing or feeling.

[phoenixrising]

No offense meant, but Angelus' obsession with Buffy was torturing the living s**t out of her cause of the way she made him feel when he had a soul (self-loathing was a part of Angel's character with or without the soul). He just wanted to cause her as much pain as possible before killing her (much like he did with Drusilla).

The thing that has to be remembered was that Spike started to change and do good before he got his soul back. Whether that makes him better than Angel, I don't know, but it definitely gets him a few bonus points.

[Wesley's Sylyna]

Just because Angel had his soul first doesn't mean anything.
Angel was the worst of people/vampires before he gained a soul, he cared about nothing but himself.

Spike cared about others when he didn't have a soul. And he was a good man when he was being all evil. And he choose to have a soul because he wanted balence and to be a better man/demon.

[Buffy Summers]

Spike cared about others before he had a soul? Who was there following Angel around in his nasty days? lol

[Cookie Dough]

Just because Angel had his soul first doesn't mean anything.
Angel was the worst of people/vampires before he gained a soul, he cared about nothing but himself.
he choose to have a soul because he wanted balence and to be a better man/demon.


But not to stop killing people, just to get buffy to love him. i would say that is selfish too.

[eponinethen]

No he didn't do it because he was selfish. He did it so he would become the kind of man Buffy deserved, whether she would choose to be with him or not, he wanted to be the kind of man she deserved. Not saying Spike did it just to be good, he had plans, but he did it to be a better man.

[Anne Summers]

No because he did it for the wrong reasons.

And did Spike even want his soul back? Because personally I thought it looked like he was going to get something to do some damage to Buffy. Especially with his shock when the demon tells him he is going to receive his soul back.



Spike never says anything about wanting a soul. And if you look at the words in context, it seems like he wants his chip back or something so he can kill Buffy. That is just how I interpreted it though.

I think that if he wanted his chip out, he wouldn't have gone to a demon to take it out. He would have tried to force a doctor take it out. I think he went to get his soul back for Buffy.

[Buffy Summers]

No he didn't do it because he was selfish. He did it so he would become the kind of man Buffy deserved, whether she would choose to be with him or not, he wanted to be the kind of man she deserved. Not saying Spike did it just to be good, he had plans, but he did it to be a better man.
I'm just saying if you're going to say that Angel was a bad guy before he had a soul, you can't say Spike was a saint lol

[eponinethen]

Hehe, Spike certainly was no saint. He did lots of evil stuff too, like killing slayers, eh..

[Wesley's Sylyna]

spike didn't stop killing people because of buffy.
it started when he got the chip and could only feel on bagged blood.

and angel was no better than spike, he was just as evil or more so when he didn't have a soul. who do you think taught spike. NOT dru, she has trouble taking care of herself. darla, hell no. she's self absorbed, all she wanted was to feed, nice clothes, nice places to stay and to f*** angelus at all hours when they weren't hunting.

angelus taught spike how be like he is. and spike learned well. spike just doesn't broad like angel does. angel probably broads because he misses some of the times he use to do with no soul and misses being a demon without a care in the world.

[LadyLavinia]

What is this thread about, anyway?

Is this about who was the most evil vampire, or who was the better souled vampire?


By the way, Angel brooded, because of the curse on his soul.

[Cordelia]

What is this thread about, anyway?

Is this about who was the most evil vampire, or who was the better souled vampire?


By the way, Angel brooded, because of the curse on his soul.


The original question was regarding if Spike was a better (more benevolent) vampire than Angel because he won his soul back rather than it being forced upon him.

[Wesley's Sylyna]

The original question was regarding if Spike was a better (more benevolent) vampire than Angel because he won his soul back rather than it being forced upon him.

Yes that is what the topic is about.

But most people aren't considering is, what they where like before they got there soul or what where they like before they where turned. You need to look at it from all angles before you decide for yourself who was better.

[LadyLavinia]

One, Spike never really struck me as a benevolent vampire. I've always felt that he saved lives because he found it exciting, he did it for Buffy's love, or for companionship with the Fang Gang, or it kept him from being bored. But I don't think his heart is really into being a "champion".

On the other hand, if the gypsies and later, Willow, had never souled Angel against his will, I seriously doubt that he would have spent some of his undead life being a "champion". Worse, it took Whistler to convince him to help Buffy in Sunnydale; and later, Doyle to convince him to do the same in L.A. He's not very good at making the decision to help others on his own. There is always some external force - whether through the influence of others or the effect of his curse - which leads him to make that choice. As long as Angel has never made the choice to be ensouled in the first place, this doesn't make him a "champion" anymore than Spike, as far as I'm concerned.

[Wicked]

Angel was cursed but spent years living alone as far from humans as possible. in fact at first he still killed humans to try to win back Darla.
Spike only got his soul back to impress Buffy.

Spike would have still been a bad guy, however, if he had never got the chip. either he would have killed Buffy or left Sunnydale, so he would never have fallen in love with Buffy so would never try to be good.

You know you'd think I'd have a point here.

To be honest its not fair to say. doesnt really matter how they got their souls. neither seems to be any better than the other.
Yeah, that was my point :S

[Mango]

I am very conflicted about this whole situation. It's strange because I was watching the Angel episode 'Destiny', today, and it got me thinking about this. I think that Spike's humanity has shone through since he got the chip in his head. I mean sure, he would never have stopped killing if they hadn't put the chip in his head, but when the initiative put the chip in his head, it gave him a chance to see what being good is all about. When he found that he couldn't kill humans anymore, he learnt to connect with them and discover that they are more than just 'food'. He got to experience humanity because of the chip. Also though, he did not realise that it was his soul he was fighting for when he was undergoing those tasks, so....I don't know....

I have always seen Angel as just a mask for Angelus though. I mean I like Angel's character, but Angelus is his true nature. Angel is and always will be just a curse IMO, but Spike was more than that.

[Drusilla's_Evil]

Hmmm, I'm not sure who's the better vampire between Spike and Angel. I mean, I personally like Spike more than Angel, but that's just a preference, it's not because I think Spike's the better vampire. Angel was cursed with a soul, and Spike voluntarily got a soul, but if not for the chip in his head, and him starting to team up with Buffy, then I doubt he would have gone to get his soul. It's confusing, and I'm torn between which one is the better vampire, so I'm just gonna say that they are both equally vampires!! : grinyes

[Edgeoforever]

I was thinking, Angel was "cursed" with a soul but Spike "won" his soul back. Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?

Uh, working for redemption versus chip in the head. The depth of the 2 stories is contrasting enough to make a sublime vs ridiculous pair - and that's how the association of the two works so well for me. Angel and his parody made season five!

[Angelus 114]

I always liked Spike better than Angel. Spike was so funny, but angel was boring and did nothing in his spare time but brood.

[PrincessZombie]

The original question was regarding if Spike was a better (more benevolent) vampire than Angel because he won his soul back rather than it being forced upon him.

Wow. That's not how I took the question at all. ;)

I guess they both suck at being vampires, since they have souls and do good deeds.

But if you're asking who is more benevolent, not who makes a better vampire...I'd have to say neither of them. Angel was cursed with his soul and brooded for several decades and completely avoided people. He didn't do anything redemption-worthy until Whistler came along. And then he only helped people to get redemption from the powers, not because he wanted to.

Spike got his soul back for love, to be a better man (even though he isn't and never will be a man) for Buffy. Some people call that selfish, but I think love is an excellent reason to strive to be more than you are. He didn't get his soul to make Buffy love him, but to be worthy of her. But that hardly makes him more benevolent. He saved people, sure, but not just because he liked them or anything.

So neither of them are really benevolent, they both do good deeds for different, mildly selfish, reasons.

An off-topic note: Some people said that Spike wasn't as evil before he was souled, and I agree. Spike could love, while Angelus could only hate. Spke did help save the world before he was chipped or souled, while Angelus tried to destroy it. Again, Spike did it for selfish reasons, but like that big blue demon said, Spike had disgusting amounts of humanity in him. Angelus didn't. Sorry, that was really off-topic, but other people talked about it too. ;)

[Wesley's Sylyna]

Spike cared about others before he had a soul? Who was there following Angel around in his nasty days? lol


He loved Dru!
He only put up with Angelus because of Drucilla.

[Wesley's Sylyna]

But as far as who's a better vamp goes, since vampires are "suppossed" to be evil, blood-thirsty, slayer- killing, creatures of the night I think (to a vampire of course, NOT my opinion!) they'd be kinda "insulting" to the vampire race. (Post souls)

Only in the since that they kill there own kind, turned there back on there own kind, fell in love with the slayer. Oh and they both have those shiny pesky souls.

[VisionGuy]

I have a question about the whole Spike getting his soul thing.Did Spike even know he was getting a soul after those trials.I thought he just wanted to get that chip off his head.Isn't that why he went to Africa.

[Wesley's Sylyna]

By the way, Angel brooded, because of the curse on his soul.

No Angel broods for another reason, not sure what though.
Because look at Spike he was a wreck after he got his soul, but he didn't brood afterword.

[Wesley's Sylyna]

I have a question about the whole Spike getting his soul thing.Did Spike even know he was getting a soul after those trials.I thought he just wanted to get that chip off his head.Isn't that why he went to Africa.

We don't know. It's how they did the show that always leaves you guessing.
But I think it was to get the chip removed.

[Angel kitty]

I think it was to get the chip removed too.

[PrincessZombie]

I'm pretty sure that Spike meant to get a soul when he went to Africa. He wanted a soul to be the man that Buffy deserved.

[cindy]

Here are some quotes that make it clear that Spike went to get his soul (at least, clear IMO :)). You can find where these quotes were compiled as part of a really interesting essay about this question. The essay can be found on the More Than Spike board on this page:
http://www.allaboutspike.com/africa.html

The quotes are from Laura's essay, and she goes on to list, at that link, the dialogue from Season 7 which supports what Joss, David (who wrote the last episode of Season 6 titled "Grave" in which Spike gets his soul), and Jane say.

"Spike's quest was, and ALWAYS WAS, to get his soul restored for Buffy, despite any misleading leaks we may have put out that you fell for." - David Fury on the Bronze Beta, 11/19/02

"Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a soul .... We did a big ole mislead on you all, where we wanted you to think he gonna go get the chip out. We knew, the whole time, from the very beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he says I want Buffy to have what she deserves, he means a lover with a soul." - Jane Espenson, Buffy writer
Radio interview on the Succubus Club, 5/22/02

Moderator: "At the end of the finale, I thought Spike wanted to get the chip out, not get his soul back?"
Joss Whedon: "Noooo.... but you were meant to think that. I personally devised something called a plot twist."
At the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences panel "Behind the Scenes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer," 6/18/02

[VisionGuy]

This really cleared up a lot of stuff.It makes better sense now.Thanks Cindy.

[cindy]

This really cleared up a lot of stuff.It makes better sense now.Thanks Cindy.
You're welcome. :) When you read the dialogue from Season 7 that Laura has in her essay, along with those quotes that I included in the previous post, it does make more sense. Of course, Joss had to tease about personally creating the device called the plot twist, but that is what they used to fool the fans. They did such a good job of it, along with James' very convincing acting, that some fans didn't believe them even after they revealed that it was indeed a plot twist, and that Spike had meant to get his soul. :D

[Caritas]

Well, I don't think it was ever a question of better or worse. Angelus was much more purely evil than Spike. Look at their dialogue at the end of 'Destiny' and Spike's famous quote from Buffy season 2 ('We like to talk big... vampires do. "I'm going to destroy the world." That's just tough-guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got...dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Good-bye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester-bloody-Square.'). But Joss seems to go with a swicthed around version of CS Lewis' old saying 'the brighter the angel the darker the devil'. Spike with a soul is pretty much still in it for the kicks, though he is obviously a lot more concerned with doing the right thing.

The only real difference is that Spike's transformation was gradual. I think the argument that he was never legitimately doing good before he had a soul because of the chip, or that any good doesn't count because of the chip is silly. it was classic Joss Whedon... all about redemtion. It's very similar to the Faith story, but Spike has the advantage over Faith in that all of his atrocities were commited while he had no soul. We do often catch glimpses of vamprie's who are not quite as evil as Angelus so it stands to reason that even without a soul they can be good. Look at Harmony's role on Angel for example. But it's also important to note what Harmony eventually does. Without a soul they can never be truly redeemed. Spike may have gone and gotten his soul for mostly selfish reasons, but he had no soul at the time. And in any event the reason is not purely selfish. He wanted to give Buffy what she deserved, even if he thought it would be good for him as well, he had SOME good intentions.

Angel had a soul forced upon him and it drove him crazy for years, until finally he found the courage to fight, but when he did he became much more of a 'champion' as the Buffy people are fond of calling it. Angel is more concerned with doing what's right than his own glory (most of the time) where as Spike tends to be at least a bit more selfish.

I'd say these facts make it a tie. I personally prefer Spike, but I don't hate Angel like many Spike fans I've met do.

[THE BLUE]

I was thinking, Angel was "cursed" with a soul but Spike "won" his soul back. Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?


I don't think he won it. It wasn't his intention. He went there to become his former self which is a chip-free Spike.

[Wicked]

I think thats what we were led to believe at the time but he really went to get his soul back.

[Ethereal Warrior]

I was thinking, Angel was "cursed" with a soul but Spike "won" his soul back. Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?

This is a difficult question. I don't really want to compare Angel and Spike because their characters and circumstances are quite different. And I really don't think that either one of them is "better" than the other one.

But I do think that because Spike sought out his soul and Angel was cursed with one, that Spike's soul has more "weight" to the idea of him being good.

Angel has worked very hard to do good in this world even against his nature. And I think he has done his best to make up for what he did in the past. He is justified in being called a champion because I think that he's done a lot of good, almost in ways that outweigh the bad things he did.

But Spike--I think he grew and developed much more as a character, even before the soul. He seemed to keep a tiny bit of humanity in him, at least in my opinion. And when he got his soul, I almost think that though he did not necessarily have a willingness to be good (at least at first), this act of getting a soul showed that he was different from Angel and that he, perhaps, might have been a better man in the long run or at least become a better man a lot quicker than Angel did.

Angel could still become Angelus if the soul was ever taken away. Spike has a soul and could either choose to be good or evil. But where Spike is different from Angel is that both his bad and good qualities are merged together whereas Angel's will always be separate. And I guess that's one of the reasons I sometimes tend to see Spike getting as soul a good deed.

[drtroy]

How did he DO it for the wrong reasons? He wanted to become a better man..forget about Buffy..he wanted to prove it to himself ALSO.

[drtroy]

Spike isn't better..than Angel..Angel isn't better than Spike..they are ...way too different to compare. Not a fair comparism.

[spuffy]

I wondered about that as well... I can't really tell but I think that they both did good to the world all that was different was Spike got his soul to change from what he used to be just like Buffy says in never leave me
he faced the demon inside and fought him so he gets to be a better souled vampire to me!!

[Wicked]

postmortem disagrees: "Make me the once once I was" doesn't qualify with having a soul.

First of all..what?

Second of all, I said that back in December.

Third of all (asuming you mean what I think you mean) yes it does. Or at least THAT IS MY OPINION. You cannot disagree with an opinion. If I said it was fact, then you could say it wasnt.

Also, assuming you meant "make me the man I once was", Spike had a soul once. So my point still stands.

[eponinethen]

He does say "make me the man I once was", doesn't he? (Sorry I can't remember cause my head is empty.) If he meant "the vampire I once was" he probably wouldn't have chosen the word man..

[angeldarla]

i dont think that this makes spike a better vampire than angel. the both of them have souls the only difference as you have said is that spike wanted it becAuse of buffy and angel was cursed by the gipses. and in my opinion angel is definitely a better vampire than spike. i dont know but i think is that bacause we saw the worst side of spike ( and angel too) but im an angel fan.

[Wicked]

Bored of the Dead agrees: You can disagree with an opinion.....but only when the opinion is wrong...yours wasn't

Ok, what I should ahve said was

you cant tell me Im wrong because its an opinion :p

Besides like someone else said, Joss and the writers said he went to get his soul back. So therefore it is true!

[Angel's vision]

spike didn't stop killing people because of buffy.
it started when he got the chip and could only feel on bagged blood.

and angel was no better than spike, he was just as evil or more so when he didn't have a soul. who do you think taught spike. NOT dru, she has trouble taking care of herself. darla, hell no. she's self absorbed, all she wanted was to feed, nice clothes, nice places to stay and to f*** angelus at all hours when they weren't hunting.

angelus taught spike how be like he is. and spike learned well. spike just doesn't broad like angel does. angel probably broads because he misses some of the times he use to do with no soul and misses being a demon without a care in the world.

Angel never missed the times when he had no soul his biggest fear was turning evil agian.He brooded because he was wraked with guilt for the bad things he did as Angelus.Angel's situation was more unique then Spikes because he was the worse vamp then Spike and being the ultimate evil vampire of all,being cursed with a soul made him want to do good deeds in way that Spike couldn't it had more impact on Angel. I can't say that either are better than the other they both have their own reasons for seeking redemption.On a more personal note i'd say Angel is a better vampire than Spike.

[Angel's vision]

I don't understand what you mean by "On a more personal note"... my own opinion, personal thought from my perspective ...etc...

[Angel's vision]

all was my own opinion and the cats perspective lol......

[zombie.apparatus]

I dont see how Spike is a better vamp than Angel... they both have a soul.. are both champions and good... and Buffy loves them both.. equals...

BUT Spike and Buffy match better than Angel and Buffy now... but in Buffy's teenage years is when it was the Bangel era :silly:

Both Spike and Angel have done some pretty bad stuff in their pasts.. but they arent those people anymore... they are good and all soul like... and they both did save the world... a lot

[Slayergal]

No. Because he got his soul back for the wrong reasons. He thought that by getting his soul back that would make Buffy love him.

[VisionGuy]

No. Because he got his soul back for the wrong reasons. He thought that by getting his soul back that would make Buffy love him.

Spike wanted his soul back so he could be a better man. Angel was cursed and stuck with a soul because he killed some gypsy girl.

[Buffy Summers]

See I still maintain that Spike didn't intentionally get his soul back ;)

[eponinethen]

Really? Oh I thought we – as in most fans – were pretty much agreeing that Spike meant to get his soul back. If you think he wanted to be a vampire, he definitely wasn't a better man. Now, I'm not saying he necessarily was – but I do think he wanted his soul back, that he wanted to be a man good enough for Buffy.. Doesn't he basically tell her that in season 7? (When burning on the cross?)

[zombie.apparatus]

He wanted to get his soul to be a better man, not for the wrong reasons.. spike wanted to be treated as a man, and buffy wouldnt have given him that... well not compared to angel.. the difference people is.. spike chose to get a soul.. angel didnt!

[Wicked]

If Spike wanted to get his soul back for the wrong reasons (not that I believe he did) what about Angel? He didnt ask for it at all. In fact he rejected it as much as he could.

[Angel's vision]

How..?^^^ Angelus/Angel separate beings sharing the same body...Liam's soul was to punish Angelus and i believe it punished Liam aswell for the bad things he did.Angel rejected it as much as he could..? well he never tried to go evil ever in the show..so you must mean Angelus but even Angelus never forsaw a soul being thrust on him.Angel brooded for sure after having a soul put on him the guilt was soo much he felt he was a monster as stated in an eppy....( i can't remmeber it might have been s2 "Darla" or "Dear boy")
So he stays outta humans way afraid he'll be a danger, he overwhelms himself in the guilt he feel's short of self flagelation.Till Whistler shows him Buffy who teaches him to be a part of the good fight.

[Wicked]

Yes, I was talking about Angelus. And if you recall, when he got his soul back he still killed people (yeah, it was bad guys, but still) and still tried to stay with Darla. This, to me, is rejecting the fact that he had a soul. He wanted to stay evil and be with Darla. He didnt want his soul.

[eponinethen]

What exactly do you guys mean when you say that Spike wanted his soul back for the "wrong" reasons? (Sorry if I'm slow..)

When Angel becomes a champion, he wants to feel atoned, redeemed. To have his sins washed clean. There is a difference between doing what is good, and what is right. Angel ONLY makes that distinction near the latter end of season 5. Spike understands the difference BEFORE he gets his soul.
I agree about Angel, but am not sure if either of the vampires with a soul really understand this. Well finally they do, but I don't think Spike got it before he got a soul.

[zombie.apparatus]

yeah but angel and spike arent better than each other.. the outcomes still the same.. if you get what i mean

[Black Eye Guy]

Well you would have to accurately define what is 'right', what is 'good', what is the difference between the two and when one matters more.

Spike enjoyed being an evil vampire, he enjoyed the "crunch" it was a party to him. Getting a soul is clearly making a sacrifice.

He thinks Buffy deserves a man. To Spike being a vampire is a profound experience, having no rules, doing what you want. An eternal lifelong party. Becomming a man is a step down, a step backwards.

Spike isn't doing good by it, but its the right thing to do.

Angel sacrificed his life to do right, Spike sacrificed his happiness.

Yeah if Spike had gone and gotten a soul before season 4 he would have been sacrificing his happiness, but at the time he did it he was not happy.

He was a vampire that couldn’t do what made him happy! Getting a soul was like an out for him, He was stuck in the middle of being good and being Evil and he couldn't be either.

[Angel's vision]

Angel did sacrifice his happiness for the greater good too Buffy, Conner.
In i will remember you and Home, because it was what Conner wanted a home, family, and what BEG said.

[white avenger]

The thing that makes Spike a better man than Angel is that, even before he won his soul, he knew the difference between right and wrong and, over time, began to fight on the side of right just because it was the right thing to do. Granted, after the chip, he only helped Buffy and her friends for either protection or money, and at first he only fought demons to satisfy his need for violence, but in the end, before the soul, he genuinely loved buffy and Dawn, and at least tolerated the others. Angel, on the other hand (or Angelus, to make the distinction) was always evil and self serving. Could any of us imagine Buffy asking an unsouled Angel(us) to take care of Dawn before she went out for her final confrontation with Glory, or asking him to protect her mother and sister from the same Big Bad? Remimber, she intended for Spike to protect Dawn once more even AFTER the rape attempt. There is simply no comparison between the two vampires. Spike is h hero, the man who the Slayer chose as her Champion. Angel is only a temporary condition imposed on an evil being who constantly struggles to reassert his dominance.

[Black Eye Guy]

Would Buffy have asked Spike from season 2? - Because that’s the only person we can compare Angelus too.

Spike wasn't some vampire that saw the error of his ways and made a decision to change, He was a product of adaptation! The chip was installed in his head and he was forced to change.

But you are right to say we can't compare the too, because Angel didn't have a way to change like spike did when he was a vampire. You could only compare them if angel had been given a chip too. spike would have continued being Evil if it hadn't been for the chip!

The thing that makes Spike a better man than Angel is that, even before he won his soul, he knew the difference between right and wrong and, over time, began to fight on the side of right just because it was the right thing to do.

The last thing spike did before getting a soul was attempt to rape Buffy, he clearly wasn't able to see right from wrong!

[white avenger]

Sorry to disagree, Black Eye, but the last thing Spike did before attempting to get a soul was to STOP HIS ATTACK on the Slayer, and before you say that she fought him off, review the scene and look at the look of shock on Spike's face when he realized what he had been attempting to do. An evil amoral monster would have renewed the attack if that was his intention. A caring, moral man would come to his senses. What would Angelus have done under those circumstances? Both are soulless monsters, right? You can't compare an ensouled Angel with a soulless Spike and get a true picture of either man. Spike is the same, regardless of whether he has a soul or not. Angel/Angelus most certainly is not.

[Wicked]

Sorry to disagree, Black Eye, but the last thing Spike did before attempting to get a soul was to STOP HIS ATTACK on the Slayer, and before you say that she fought him off, review the scene and look at the look of shock on Spike's face when he realized what he had been attempting to do. An evil amoral monster would have renewed the attack if that was his intention. A caring, moral man would come to his senses. What would Angelus have done under those circumstances? Both are soulless monsters, right? You can't compare an ensouled Angel with a soulless Spike and get a true picture of either man. Spike is the same, regardless of whether he has a soul or not. Angel/Angelus most certainly is not.

A caring moral man wouldnt have attempted rape in the first place.

[Black Eye Guy]

Sorry to disagree, Black Eye, but the last thing Spike did before attempting to get a soul was to STOP HIS ATTACK on the Slayer, and before you say that she fought him off, review the scene and look at the look of shock on Spike's face when he realized what he had been attempting to do.
Spike absolutly did not stop his attak on Buffy!! She kicked him off, and then he realised what he was doing, but he did not make a concious decision to stop the attack!

What would Angelus have done under those circumstances? Both are soulless monsters, right? You can't compare an ensouled Angel with a soulless Spike and get a true picture of either man. Spike is the same, regardless of whether he has a soul or not. Angel/Angelus most certainly is not.

Thats not true, Spike in season 2 is the only version of Spike you can compare with anglus! The chip changed spike, because he had no other choice!!

[Wicked]

See I still maintain that Spike didn't intentionally get his soul back ;)

Well Im currently watching season 7. Beneath You just finished and Spike admited to Buffy that he deliberatly went to get his soul back.

[Jules]

Spike was not a man before he got his soul. He was a vampire, he was a demon and creature of evil. The fact that he couldn't kill humans wasn't a choice of his in the beginning, it was forced on him, much like Angel's soul. The fact that he was still bloodthursty was shown by the fact that he started to hunt and kill his own kind because the demon in him needed a kill.

I think Spike's actions before he got a soul don't make him a good man, they make him a pathetic demon.

And I got the impression that Spike sought the demon to loose his chip not gain his soul. To me it came across as if the demon tricked him. The demon probably knew Spike's subcounscious wishes, but I don't think it was Spike's motivation to seeking the demon.

But anyway, say Spike did got to gain his soul, he didn't go there because he wanted to save the world, he did it for Buffy. And even though it was a noble gesture it doesn't make him a better person. I find that people who change for other people don't generally stay changed. For example, say you have a smoker who quits smoking for a loved one, and say that loved one leaves (for whatever reason) the person who quits has no more motivation to stay not smoking. Spike's motives would have been better if he had sort his soul for himself, not to show Buffy he could be what she needed.

That doesn't mean I think he's less of a champion than Angel.

I do think Spike's less of a vampire though. Angelus was evil right up to the end and he was punished for his actions with a soul. Spike's demon just went soft :)

[Wicked]

My god. How many times o people have to say it before people understand? It has be proven that Spike went to get his soul back on purpose.

For example the POst before yours and the fact that the writers have told us so. How can you argue with the writers? They wrote it.

[Buffy Summers]

You could argue that, what is he really going to say to her. "Hi Buffy, I went to get my demonic, human-killing ways back"?

[Jules]

And how many different ways can I type this:

''And I got the impression that Spike sought the demon to loose his chip not gain his soul. To me it came across as if the demon tricked him. The demon probably knew Spike's subcounscious wishes, but I don't think it was Spike's motivation to seeking the demon.''

Meaning that when I watched the show, I thought the above. I made my own decisions from what I saw. I did not wait for someone else to explain it to me, or watch the commentary before coming to a decision.

[Wicked]

Well then, I guess you thought wrong :p

[Jules]

Aww, you poor little thing, did you not understand the show? There there.

When Buffy came back from the dead in season 6, did you instantly know she had been in Heaven? No. Its called creating a story, building suspense. Making it believable.

Don't be too perturbed you belong to a large group of fans who missunderstand aspects of the show. Its difficult for you, I know, to understand something as vast and complex as..Buffy...

Ok, so let me see if I'm understanding your post.

Your saying that the writters make the show and they expect every single person who watches it to think exactly the same way they do, that if they take something different away from the show then its wrong...

Then if your thinking that way then all these discussions are actually pointless because people's individual understandings of the show are pointless...right...let me know if I'm understanding you.

Also, if you have a disagreement with one of my posts then let me know and I'll discuss with you were I get my opinions from...without quoting the writters. I'll give you my opinion :) But your above post just seems slightly pointless and sarcastic....

[Wicked]

We understood that you thought Spike went to get his chip out. But we have told you that he didnt. You dont seem to understand our posts.

[Jules]

And your misunderstanding me. You can tell me till your blue in the face that the writters have said that Spike went to get his soul. But in my opinion I thought he went to get his chip removed. He may have subconsciously wanted his soul, but when I watched the show I didn't get that impression.

I'm entitled to my opinion...as I watched the show (before I knew what the writters said) that's what I thought. Its hard to change my mind.

And I seriously doubt that Joss minds if people think differently about different parts of his show...that's why so many different people like Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Different people relate to it differently.

[Wicked]

I keep telling you I know what youre saying. Its not difficult to figure out.

I know thats your opinion. You keep saying that. What I dont understand is how you can still think that when you know otherwise. Thats just stupid.

[Jules]

Clearly you don't get what I'm saying.

My opinion wont change if its different to what the writters wanted to original say.

If everyone agreed with everything life would be incredibly dull.

[Wicked]

But how can you still think that when you have proof against it? It makes no sense!

If I think something and Im proven wrong, I dont still think it!

[Jules]

But how can you still think that when you have proof against it? It makes no sense!

If I think something and Im proven wrong, I dont still think it!

Tell me its black and I'll argue its white, if I believe it strongly enough.

Are you kidding? Do you understand art, at all? Interpretation does not lend itself to calling a painting a sculpture, or vice versa.

If I believe that Buffy was actually a man, are you suggesting I would be right because I have a different opinion? Your argument really is preposterous.

You are mistaking 'meaning' for 'plot'. I don't think deliberately, I think you really are just that deficient.

You know, I've been back at the boards a couple of days and I already don't like you. I like a good debate as good as the next person but I really dislike how you belittle peoples opinion. If you want to debate stuff with me thats fine, but stop calling me deficient.

I keep forgetting that you must be all knowing on the subject of Buffy, and of course everyone elses opinions are just wrong.

But anyway, we are way off topic on this one...so I'll leave it there...

[Wicked]

Tell me its black and I'll argue its white, if I believe it strongly enough.

Well then youre f***ing stupid.

Im so sick of arguing this point. Me and Whatshisname both tell you how it is and you just cant accept that. Thats your problem.

[VisionGuy]

From Buffyverse Dialogue Database

Here Spike tells Buffy he went to get his soul. He calls it the spark.
SPIKE: Hello.

BUFFY: What the hell are you--?

SPIKE: (tossing his shirt away) It didn't work. Costume. Didn't help. Couldn't hide.

BUFFY: No more mind games, Spike.

SPIKE: No more mind games. No more mind.

BUFFY: (reaching for his scarred chest) Tell me what happened to you.

SPIKE: Hey, hey, hey! No touching. Am I flesh? Am I flesh to you? Feed on flesh. My flesh. Nothing else. Not a spark. Oh, fine. Flesh then. Solid through. (starts unzipping his pants) Get it hard; service the girl.

BUFFY: Stop it!

SPIKE: Right. Girl doesn't want to be serviced. Because there's no spark. Ain't we in a soddin' engine?

BUFFY: Spike, have you completely lost your mind?

SPIKE: (lucidly) Well, yes. Where've you been all night?

BUFFY: You thought you would just come back here and... be with me?

SPIKE: First time for everything.

BUFFY: This is all you get. I'm listening. Tell me what happened.

SPIKE: I tried to find it, of course.

BUFFY: Find what?

SPIKE: The spark. The missing... the piece that fit. That would make me fit. Because you didn't want... (starts to cry) God, I can't... Not with you looking. (drags himself into shadows)

SPIKE: I dreamed of killing you. I think they were dreams. So weak. Did you make me weak, thinking of you, holding myself, and spilling useless buckets of salt over your... ending? Angel--he should've warned me. He makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me, all the time. The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it. They put the spark in me and now all it does is burn.

BUFFY: Your soul.

SPIKE: Bit worse for lack of use.

BUFFY: You got your soul back. How?

SPIKE: It's what you wanted, right? (looking at the ceiling) It's what you wanted, right? And--and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did...everyone I-- and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath--beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go... go... to hell.

BUFFY: Why? Why would you do that--

SPIKE: Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev-- (chokes up) to be a kind of man. (approaching the alter & a giant cross) She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved. So everything's OK, right? (rests on the cross, his flesh starts to smoke) Can--can we rest now? Buffy...can we rest?
-Beneath You

Here the First as the Mayor tells Spike that he thought wrong if he thought his soul would fix things.
SPIKE: (crouched on the floor) The thing is...I had a speech. I learned it all. Oh, God. She won't understand, she won't understand.

MORPHING EVIL THING (as WARREN): Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything...useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. More than flesh...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as GLORY):..more than blood. I'm... you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me. Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips, assuming their lips haven't been torn off. But not just yet. That's alright, though...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as ADAM): ...I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you, Number 17. You're right where you belong.

MORPHING EVIL THING (as THE MAYOR): So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man, and I respect that, but...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as DRUSILLA): ...you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark with me, singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them, right from the beginning. And that's where we're going...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as THE MASTER): ...right back to the beginning. Not the Bang... not the Word... the true beginning. The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic schmuck, if it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you. Trying to do what's right, just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right, not about wrong...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as BUFFY): ...it's about power.
-Lessons

Here Spike tells Buffy he got his soul back for her.
SPIKE: As daft a notion as "Soulful Spike the Killer" is, it is nothing compared to the idea that another girl could mean anything to me. This chip, they did to me. I couldn't help it. But the soul, I got on my own... for you.-Sleeper

There probably are more but I don't really feel like digging them out now.

[Jules]

Just answer this one question: If its my opinion that Buffy is actually a man, would I be wrong?

You can't debate/ have an opinion on that. Its an actual physical thing...not prone to a person's interpritation. It just is a definate answer. Someone's actions and their reasoning being it can be debated, people can reason out different meaning from it.

[Wicked]

But Jesse just showed you proof. Therefore its definate. You cant argue that.

[Jules]

Thanks, bigot. Go tell that to thousands of people who are born of one sex but believe themselves to be another. You just prove that you don't believe your own point, you are not entering the debate with an open mind, or any objective reasoning.

Now your picking a fight and don't start name calling because I can guarantee you'll come worse off...you asked was Buffy a man...and I said that can't be debated...your now saying it can and that Buffy could be linked with those thousands of people who are born one sex but have the emotions of the other.

Its as if your purposely trying to not see my point.....

So I think it would be best....before this starts to get really ugly...that things are just left as they are...you think one thing and I don't agree and vice versa, we're both not going to agree with each other no matter what's said!

[Black Eye Guy]

Can we loose the name calling and insults people, and keep on topic! :)

[Bored of the Dead]

I really don't see how people can argue what Spike went for.
Like stated, its debatable why he went for his Soul, but the fact that the people who created the show implicitly state this shows that was the intention.

Having an opinion based on open text is one thing, but to totally disregard closed text leaving no room for interpretation is, quite frankly, as silly as the Silliest Man from Sillyshire doing a silly walk down silly street on the silliest day of the year wearing a silly costume made from silly string while its raining.

[nerd4hire]

I'm going to close this as it goes over the posting per thread limit.

Post another if you like though. When it stayed on-topic it was an interesting discussion.