Charles Gunn's Intelligence

[LadyLavinia]

I had come across this statement from the Tea at the Ford site:

I also forgot to mention Fred's intelligence. That's one thing that really suits Wesley, and that over and over in season 4, Gunn finds himself jealous about – the intellectual suitability of those two for each other.

- alcibiades (Sun 2004.02.29 at 03:37 pm EST)

You know, this really pisses me off. It really annoys me that many Jossverse fans assume that Wesley is better for Fred because he is supposed to be her intellectual equal.

First of all, why do many Jossverse fans view Gunn as someone simple-minded in compare to Wes and Fred? ANGEL had established that Charles Gunn is a very intelligent character. He simply did not receive the same amount of education that Wes and Fred had. Yet, the fans continue to persist in this - rather insulting - view that he is intellectually simple. Whedon and ME certainly didn't establish this. They keep pointing out that Gunn is a very intelligent person - to the extent that a character like Gwen Raiden has to say so, aloud in Season 4's "Players". What ME was establishing was the fact that Gunn had an inferiority complex about his intelligence. Yet, Jossverse fans like the one who had made the above statement seem to wallow in the illusion that he isn't intelligent at all. Like I said, this really pisses me off.

[Allycat]

I don't think he's unintelligent, but would rather say he's uneducated. While Fred and Wesley would converse about Milton or Quantum-theory, Gunn would be left on the side, puzzled.

Moreover, Gunn may be intelligent compared to the average Joe, but does that automatically put him at the same level as Fred and Wesley?

[eponinethen]

I don't think Gunn is unintelligent at all. He obviously has a different kind of intelligent than Fred and Wesley though. But the reason I think that Wes and Fred are way better together than Gunn and Fred, has got nothing to do with intelligence...

[Mulder22]

Gunn is definitly VERY street smart. Like you all mentioned he just lacked the higher education of Fred and Wes. There were so many times throughout the show when it was Gunn who came up with a solution or plan to save the day that goes somewhat unnoticed. I think his lack of respect comes from the fact that everyone has their expertise. Gunn's expertise was fighting or the "muscle". Wes's was translating scrolls and languages, plus vast knowledge of the demon world. Fred had the science type game and other smart stuff. I guess because of this Gunn gets overlooked.

[LadyLavinia]

I don't think he's unintelligent, but would rather say he's uneducated. While Fred and Wesley would converse about Milton or Quantum-theory, Gunn would be left on the side, puzzled.

Moreover, Gunn may be intelligent compared to the average Joe, but does that automatically put him at the same level as Fred and Wesley?

Maybe. Maybe not. But we'll never know the answer, because Charles never received an education on a level similar to Fred and Wesley.

I don't think Gunn is unintelligent at all. He obviously has a different kind of intelligent than Fred and Wesley though. But the reason I think that Wes and Fred are way better together than Gunn and Fred, has got nothing to do with intelligence...

This is probably a topic that we'll never agree on.

[WatcherWes]

I concur with what the others have said. Education was the difference. Doesn't make Wes and Fred better than Gunn. In fact, I have more respect for Gunn, who got a really hard lot in life, and has been just as effective a hero as Wes and Fred.

[Xin Rong]

Both Wes and Gunn are suited for fred based on intelligence, afterall wesleys book smart, whereas gunn is smart and freds a bit of both, even so intelligence isn't really anything to do with love or isn't really a good indicator for match making potential

[LadyLavinia]

Both Wes and Gunn are suited for fred based on intelligence, afterall wesleys book smart, whereas gunn is smart and freds a bit of both, even so intelligence isn't really anything to do with love or isn't really a good indicator for match making potential

I think that Gunn was capable of being "book" smart, just as much as Wesley or Fred. He simply didn't receive any educational opportunites in his early life.

Also, I never would have had trouble with Gunn becoming a brilliant lawyer. I think he was capable of being one . . . if he had taken the trouble. Nor do I believe it was necessary for him to return to his old neighborhood, near the end of the series. I'm still wondering why the ME writers thought it was necessary.

[SpikedBuffy]

Hmm. I never ever took account any intelligences for Fred relationships. I don't think it every played a part here. There were many things that attracted Fred and Gunn together, as with Fred and Wes.

Gunn is a very street smart individual, he has the common sense needed to be considered intelligent. And you could tell that he definitely had a conflict with not being intelligent, because of his major freak out when he started losing the stuff that was implanted. I think Gunn is the one who cared more about intelligence than Fred. And not because he wanted Fred to like him. He just wanted to be worthwhile to the team, instead of just being the 'tough guy'.

[LadyLavinia]

Interesting that it all started with Fred labelling Charles as the "muscle" of the group in early S3. Talk about irony. But that's Fred for you . . . judging others, based upon superficial reasons.

[Mulder22]

Interesting that it all started with Fred labelling Charles as the "muscle" of the group in early S3. Talk about irony. But that's Fred for you . . . judging others, based upon superficial reasons.


Damn. I never thought about that. Good Point. That is very ironic.

[Caritas]

There is no reason to believe Gunn is uneducated either. In fact, though he may not have been educated in the particular feilds Fred or Wes were, he certainly, long before the W&H upload displayed some pretty keen knowledge in many areas... not just simple street smarts or latent intelligence... he actually seems to be at the very least well read. Like many have said so far, the essence is Gunn's own perception of the issue of his intelligence. He perceives himself as 'the muscle' becuase he thinks that's all the group thinks he's good for. He wants to mean more to them. It's similar to the issue with Lorne. W&H play on Gunn's insecurity to get him to do the law upload, but he's always been an asset and not just in the sense of hitting things. This is something dealt with a lot in season five, the idea of the things people are fearful or insecure about being ways of taking them down the pathe to darkness. Gunn's flaw is never a lack of intelligence, it's his lack of confidence in his intelligence.