Lorne and Androgeny

[Caritas]

I think an integral part of the character of Lorne is his somewhat undefined sexuality. A lot of people who speculate like to simplify Lorne to a simply 'homosexual' character, but to me he's somewhat more symbolic than that. Notice that they've taken great pains not to make his sexual preference a big issue, though we know Joss and the Buffy people are not shy about that type of thing at all. Also, after seeing his family and everything it becomes clear that the entire gender structure of his race of demon is quite different than the human one.

I tend to see Lorne as an important challenge to a lot of the specified ideas about gender in society. To tell the truth, though the pronoun 'he' is used in reference to Lorne, I don't think Lorne is actually male in the same way that, say Gunn is.

Of course I am sure I'm reading too much into this (I tend to), but I kind of think of Lorne as representing the principle of androgyny, and not just in the 'Ziggy Stardust' sense. I think Lorne is the wave of the future... people who's gender identity isn't 95% bassed on their genitalia.

[THE BLUE]

Undefined? He is gay.

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Undefined? He is gay.
Lorne isn’t gay… he acts gay but its more like he’s being flamboyant, he’s just a demon I don’t really think he was attracted to either sex (human ones anyway).

He did love Fred, but I don’t think it was romantically.

[THE BLUE]

I think he loved Angel more, but that's just me. :D

[Caritas]

Undefined? He is gay.

Okay, let me rephrase then... sure he's gay. He seems to be male and there is a definite implication that he likes boys so yes, that would make him gay. But I think it's about more than being 'gay' or 'straight'... I think there is something to Lorne that even trancends sexuality. Don't get me wrong, it would be fine for him to just be a gay character, all I'm saying is I think his siginifgance is more than Joss Whedon and the writters just saying, 'yes America, some people are gay and it's perfectly normal, deal with it!' I mean they've really already smade that statement that with Willow. I think that Lorne just means something... let's not say more, I think that probably not what I mean to say and is very missleading... something other than JUST homosexuality (I don't mena to say he's not gay, all I meant was that they never explicitly said it or showed it as they did with Willow, though I thought it was implied). Look at Lorne's mother... basically seems to be a man. His entire race is androgynous it seems and I just think there could be an important message there. Maybe it's just because I support androgyny and despise traditional gender roles.

[Wicked]

I dont even think he was gay. the way he acted to angel was just playful. but i dont think he ever actually liked him like that.
He liked him the same way he liked fred.

Dont think he really liked either.

I agree with the original point. He wasnt straight or gay in the strictest sense. His mum appeared to be a man after all. dont think it works the same way for his race.

[Caritas]

But what i'm wondering is, does anyone think Lorne could have a symbolic importance? Maybe not even intentionally, but I mean does anyone else see it?

[Wicked]

I think everything on the two shows can be interpreted as something important. doesnt mean they are. depends on the person watching.

[VisionGuy]

I always saw Lorne as metrosexual. I mean he did say things to Angel playfully like muffincake and honeybuns but he also called Cordy hot-o-rama and I'm sure I heard him refer to other girls as well.

I just think that Lorne isn't gay or straight. Maybe his race sees man and woman as different than humans do.

[Wicked]

My point :)

[eponinethen]

I pretty much agree about what's been said. I don't think you should even try to label Lorne like that, it's simply not possible. In a way it's a bit sad, because we never see Lorne getting romantically involved with anyone, and I have a hard time trying to picture that (uh, I don't mean like, hm, nvm).. Just saying, he likes a lot of people, male and female.. just can't actually see him falling in love with someone for real..

[Caritas]

I'm raelly depressed by the fact that this has to be a discussion about gay and straight. That is not what this thread was even about. Can we please, maybe somehow, try to have an intelectual discussion instead of it being celebrity-gossip-esque 'is Lorne gay?' I wasn't asking if anyone thought Lorne was gay. I don't honestly care if you think he is or not. Someone please read my original post and actually reply to it. No one has taken the time to even say anything about it. Please, can someone get on topic for me.

[Wicked]

im fairly sure i did like vision guy :s

[Caritas]

I always saw Lorne as metrosexual. I mean he did say things to Angel playfully like muffincake and honeybuns but he also called Cordy hot-o-rama and I'm sure I heard him refer to other girls as well.

I just think that Lorne isn't gay or straight. Maybe his race sees man and woman as different than humans do.

Since you decided to comment on my post I just wanted to point out what I'm talking about. I realize I said something about having an intelectual conversation, but I'm not saying your post was stupid... in fact it would be great if I asked whether anyone thought Lorne was gay or not. But DAMN! I don't know how many times I have to say this. I was never talking about whether Lorne was gay or straight. I don't care. I don't give a damn. NO ONE obviously is reading my original post. I already said in almost every post that it looks as if male and female are different for his race. I get that, what I'm asking for is for someone to comment on what they think that means. At the very least say, 'well, it doesn't mean anything to me because I don't even try to think about it.' I just don't understand how anyone an read my original post and then sit here and debate gay or straight or bi or metro. I DON'T CARE TO TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE'S GAY! I already know what I think about that.

Is there anyone who would like to actually talk about my original post? I don't know how many times I have to ask this question. I don't know why everyone persists in ignoring the point of this whole thread. I don't care if you think he's gay or straight. I don't care if you think he's 'metrosexual'. Will anyone take the time to read over my original post and see that I wanted to put gay and straight aside and talk about ANDROGYNY? Will anyone on this board do that for me?

[Caritas]

im fairly sure i did like vision guy :s

Fine, but all you did is opt out mof the discussion. It was like saying, 'I have no opinion.' That's cool. That's fine. Because you didn't say 'well I think he's metrosexual'. I don't give a rat's ass if he's metro. Do you see what I'm saying. Everyone is talking about whether he's gay or not and I have consistently over and over, since the first post been saying I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about something very specific that it seems like only you actually understood. I would really like to at the very least get responses like yours, but honestly I would really prefer if someone would actually say something about it more than just 'sure it can mean that if you want to'. I mean I even said in my first post that it might not be something Joss or the writters intended, but that it could still mean something signifigant to people who want to interpret it that way. So does anything have anything to say about that?

[Wicked]

but i do have an opinion. i guess i forgot to say it. oops :s
anyway, i doubt it was meant in anyway. people interpret as a whole thig as a gender issue. and to be fair you were the one who mentioned the whole thing about them not being male or female which i mentioned in my post. you mentioned the sexuality thing. which i also mentioned. what exactly was you point then?

[Caritas]

but i do have an opinion. i guess i forgot to say it. oops :s
anyway, i doubt it was meant in anyway. people interpret as a whole thig as a gender issue. and to be fair you were the one who mentioned the whole thing about them not being male or female which i mentioned in my post. you mentioned the sexuality thing. which i also mentioned. what exactly was you point then?

I know I said your post was fine. I just didn't want the whole thing to turn into a discussion about his sexuality. I brought up his sexuality in the first post to disuade people from talkng about it... to say set it aside and look at another issue. I gave my opinion on it later because THE BLUE pretty much didn't say anything but 'he's gay' which was never what I wanted to talk about.

Like I said, your posts have been fine, but I would like it if someone would talk about what it means (not really even what Joss and the writters meant by it, but what it means to them, what they might take from it personally) that Lorne's sex (not even just his sexuality, his gender in general) is so non-specific. I realize I'm probably reading a lot into it, but I don't think Joss meant anything one way or another, so it ought to be open to interpretation then. I just want to know if anyone else has a similar, or even very different interpretation. I see now, I guess, how maybe the issue of his sexuality could come up in that, but that's not what anyone was doing. They were all just arguing about whether he was gay, or more precisely, THE BLUE argued that he was gay and everyone else said 'no he's not'. I just want people to respond to the actual topic instead of one sentence THE BLUE said and one I said in reply. Notice in my reply to THE BLUE where I was trying to steer the discussion. THAT was my original intent for this thread.

[Caritas]

So this thread is a bust, I'm sorry folks.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Having FINALLY read this entire threa, i do believe i can offer my own personal 'evaluation' of the Lorne Character, and his meaning, to me, in the World of Angel.

Lorne was born in a season loosely based on the 'musical'(Reading Angel goes into this side more). His role, at first, has somewhat of an Androgynous part, that does offer the whole 'sexuality' angle, while at the same time, doesnt answer what he is. THIS is the confusing factor, to me, that has this thread working so hard.
HAD we been able to clarify with certainty Lornes sexuality, and say 'twas 'Heterosexual', THEN, the significance of his actions would have further impact on people, simply because they could place his actions in one of two groups of 'the norm', in Character for a Straight man(or the universal acceptance of what a 'straight' man should do) or out of character for a straight man(universal acceptance....yadda yadda yadda).
Now, his actual sexuality does play a significant part of this conversation, simply because of its ambiguity.
Here we have a demon, whose initial introduction is that of 'high camp' value, yet often we are given the impression, this could be simply part of who he is, and thus leads us to a safe conclusion that Lorne isn't defined by a sexuality.
We then, begin to believe that this is possibly an attribute of his demon heritage.
HOWEVER, we are given a sign that again, Lorne is set apart from his own people, with the introduction of 'Landok', a fierce warrior of Lornes people, one who, by appearance is of the same 'sex' as Lorne.
This forces us to believe that maybe Lorne is again based on a misconception of Sexuality, as Landok is a fierce Warrior, and Lorne, is not.
We again begin to question Lornes sexuality, BUT this is quickly put into further dispute when we meet Lornes 'life giver'.
His 'mother' has something that Landok has, that Lorne does not.....facial hair.
Now, this could be simply a trait that both sexes(if there are two in this senario) have the ability to grow facial hair, OR could it be, that Lorne and Landok, though seemingly similar are infact different sexes.

Another point to this, the parent is refered to as the 'Life Giver' while never actually being discussed what role in that process, as an argument could be given to suggest a father is too considered a giver of life.
Again, added to this, we are never told of two parents, but one single parent, one whos sex is as ambiguous as the other two people we know of this Clan.

Its assumed Lorne is male, simply because he wears masculine clothes, is refered to as 'he' by the others, and to an extent, because he is played by a Male actor.
But heres the conundrum, what is Lorne.
To fully answer your question Caritas, we need to have a full definition of his species sex and sexuality.

The Character, while these definitions are not there, will be treated as a male. If this is the case, then, we can assume he is typical of others of his species, simply because we have seen, an opposite(His 'mother'). IF this is the case, then i think, from my own personal standpoint, that he is indicitive of a person, lost from his world, adaptive to a new set of surroundings, who integrates into society the best way he sees fit, sexually ambigous. He is a representation of a type of male that has to define his nature, while seeking a comfortable level of who he is.

His placing, and description, could not be a mistake, or an over sight, andi have to believe that it was always to be his 'destiny' to remain this ambigous, due to the lengths the writers have gone to, to keep his sexuality 'masked'. While his sex and sexuality are masked we are allowed to garner our own interpretation of his actions and his comments.
So, to me, his lack of definition is possibly a pretense, for a commentary on the Human acceptance of person OVER sex/sexuality.


I know i waffled on, and probably made no sense, but i hope i stayed in with your initial topic....lol.

[eponinethen]

I'm raelly depressed by the fact that this has to be a discussion about gay and straight. That is not what this thread was even about. Can we please, maybe somehow, try to have an intelectual discussion instead of it being celebrity-gossip-esque 'is Lorne gay?' I wasn't asking if anyone thought Lorne was gay. I don't honestly care if you think he is or not. Someone please read my original post and actually reply to it. No one has taken the time to even say anything about it. Please, can someone get on topic for me.
Sorry if I'm not intellectual enough for you, I'm not very good at that...
But the thread sort of turned into a sexuality-discussion, so I don't think it was completely wrong to comment on that, and I do think that's got to do with Lorne being androgyne or not. As I mentioned before, I don't know if I'd see Lorne fall for a male or a female (or either).. but with that I didn't mean to say I think he's bi.. I don't think you can label him like that (as I'm quite sure I said in my last post as well).. and by "label" I also meant the male/female thing. If he was a guy wh liked guys (or girls) it would all be pretty simple, wouldn't it.. I'm just saying I think Lorne is more complicated than that.. and that it's sad in a way.. that he'd probably have a really hard time finding anyone.. and also realiting to anyone..

[Caritas]

person OVER sex/sexuality.

These words here are hitting a lot more on what I was talking about.

[Caritas]

Having FINALLY read this entire threa, i do believe i can offer my own personal 'evaluation' of the Lorne Character, and his meaning, to me, in the World of Angel.

Lorne was born in a season loosely based on the 'musical'(Reading Angel goes into this side more). His role, at first, has somewhat of an Androgynous part, that does offer the whole 'sexuality' angle, while at the same time, doesnt answer what he is. THIS is the confusing factor, to me, that has this thread working so hard.
HAD we been able to clarify with certainty Lornes sexuality, and say 'twas 'Heterosexual', THEN, the significance of his actions would have further impact on people, simply because they could place his actions in one of two groups of 'the norm', in Character for a Straight man(or the universal acceptance of what a 'straight' man should do) or out of character for a straight man(universal acceptance....yadda yadda yadda).
Now, his actual sexuality does play a significant part of this conversation, simply because of its ambiguity.
Here we have a demon, whose initial introduction is that of 'high camp' value, yet often we are given the impression, this could be simply part of who he is, and thus leads us to a safe conclusion that Lorne isn't defined by a sexuality.
We then, begin to believe that this is possibly an attribute of his demon heritage.
HOWEVER, we are given a sign that again, Lorne is set apart from his own people, with the introduction of 'Landok', a fierce warrior of Lornes people, one who, by appearance is of the same 'sex' as Lorne.
This forces us to believe that maybe Lorne is again based on a misconception of Sexuality, as Landok is a fierce Warrior, and Lorne, is not.
We again begin to question Lornes sexuality, BUT this is quickly put into further dispute when we meet Lornes 'life giver'.
His 'mother' has something that Landok has, that Lorne does not.....facial hair.
Now, this could be simply a trait that both sexes(if there are two in this senario) have the ability to grow facial hair, OR could it be, that Lorne and Landok, though seemingly similar are infact different sexes.

Another point to this, the parent is refered to as the 'Life Giver' while never actually being discussed what role in that process, as an argument could be given to suggest a father is too considered a giver of life.
Again, added to this, we are never told of two parents, but one single parent, one whos sex is as ambiguous as the other two people we know of this Clan.

Its assumed Lorne is male, simply because he wears masculine clothes, is refered to as 'he' by the others, and to an extent, because he is played by a Male actor.
But heres the conundrum, what is Lorne.
To fully answer your question Caritas, we need to have a full definition of his species sex and sexuality.

The Character, while these definitions are not there, will be treated as a male. If this is the case, then, we can assume he is typical of others of his species, simply because we have seen, an opposite(His 'mother'). IF this is the case, then i think, from my own personal standpoint, that he is indicitive of a person, lost from his world, adaptive to a new set of surroundings, who integrates into society the best way he sees fit, sexually ambigous. He is a representation of a type of male that has to define his nature, while seeking a comfortable level of who he is.

His placing, and description, could not be a mistake, or an over sight, andi have to believe that it was always to be his 'destiny' to remain this ambigous, due to the lengths the writers have gone to, to keep his sexuality 'masked'. While his sex and sexuality are masked we are allowed to garner our own interpretation of his actions and his comments.
So, to me, his lack of definition is possibly a pretense, for a commentary on the Human acceptance of person OVER sex/sexuality.


I know i waffled on, and probably made no sense, but i hope i stayed in with your initial topic....lol.

Basically, the way I see it is, we can take him as a gay character if we wish and that can be very beneficial. People who are themselves homosexual can look to Lorne and see a strong character and even maybe in some small way a role model. But I simply also think we can see Lorne and his whole race as a symbol for something else too. Looking at him from a different perspective we can se a character who seems to be male, but can also, because of the ambiguity of his race's sexuality, be seen as female in a sense. A lot of people lately are saying that gender is an illusion of civilized society. Now this must be taken witha grain of salt... we have different genitals and usually pretty different chemestry between the sexes. But the whole idea of gender identification seems to me to be evolving out of our psychology as a race. I sort of think that a character like Lorne who's gender and possibly even his sexual orientation (there have been numerous hints... sometimes he seems to flirt with Angel and it generally seems like he's very attracted to him, but as someone pointed out he also has a deep affection for Fred that could almost be seen as something more than friendship) are completely without typical boundries can be a role model for our way of looking at gender in our changing world. Lorne doesn't have to be seen as male or female, gay, straight, or bi... he can be Lorne and make his own determination for himself. We wouldn't find it so odd for Lorne to be with a male, but we wouldn't find it so odd for him to be witha female. We wouldn't be surprised to learn he was male himself, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think he was actually the female of his race. We also don't HAVE to see him as male or female at all. We can see him stradling a line. We can see him as almost asexual.

I guess my point from the beging is that Lorne, because of his androgyny can be everything to everyone. Lorne, to me, is a model for a new kind of human being. We no longer need concern ourselves with things like reproduction and simple animal classification of our genders. People can be just as masculine or feminine as they want even if they seem to physically be one or the other. People can sleep with who they like and we can make the classifications of gay, straight, or bi simply ways to know what you prefer... but no one should have to restruict themselves to anything. I am a straight male, at least that's how i define myself, but if suddenly I meet a guy tomorrow who I feel a sexual and emotional connection with, I wouldn't hesitate to simply go with it. This is what I am talking about with Lorne. No one has to define him as one thing or the other... he's still Lorne, male or female, gay or straight. We are still ourselves no mater what. And sexuality is very complex. I know people who would call themselves bi, but really mostly like one sex and sometimes dable in the other. I know a gay man who would never want to have sex with a woman, but really loves breasts and lesbians. All I'm saying is that we can look at Lorne as the wave of the future... someone who can be whatever they wish and totally fit in. Someone who can even blur lines and make us uncertain and still be looked at more for who he is than for whether he likes boys or girls.