Is Faith bi..? [Archive]

eponinethen

03-26-2006, 11:42 AM

To be honest what people see as sexual tension is just great chemistry between the actresses. Fact is, that same tension can be seen between Spike and Xander at times, even Giles and Ethan Rayne have that odd feeling when you see them onscreen...
Fact is, Faith is a woman with confidence in her sexuality, we have seen it, but that does not make her even slightly gay or Bi as it were.
Joss may have attributed it to sexual tension, but that doesnt mean thats what it is, or infact that she is Bi.

He said "tension". There is a difference. But if you want to stay hopeful he also said that every character's relation to other character can be seen as "romantic".
Hopeful? I'm just saying that I see it, so to me it is there :)And I don't see it half as much between other characters, as between Faith and Buffy – that might just be because of me, doesn't really matter, does it? You can't say it's not there, there is certainly no proof of that.
And I honestly don't care if Faith is straight or bi, there's still sexual Fuffy tension, and lots of it, imo ;)

And wolf I know, I'm sorry, I just saw that thread, I agree with what you said there though :p

Frenchy Faith

03-30-2006, 06:19 AM

I donno about Joss epo, but I do clearly remember David Fury mentionning the "lesbian subtext" in the comments of Bad Girl on my DVD of S3... now I dont really think she's bi but clearly they wanna show that she doesnt care and flirts with girls as well as guys... because she's hot and cool and she knows it. :biggrin:

And YEAH! Fuffy is... :biggrin:

watcher1006

03-31-2006, 07:16 AM

It's actually not hard to imagine Faith being bi-sexual, although there wasn't anything concrete that pointed that way. Faith could be in bed with another female and I would just shrug. From what we saw Faith doesn't seem serious about her sexual relationships. It's like what Buffy says to Xander in "Consequences" - guys with whom Faith has a "connection" aren't guys she takes seriously, they're just a "big joke" to her. Maybe that was related to her immaturity and the growing up she had to do, but it seemed like her sexual orientation may not have been a key part of her personality. Strange as that may sound.

That stands in contrast to Willow, who took her relationships very seriously. I thought Will was a different person after her orientation changed.

coolcheese

04-20-2006, 01:50 AM

I dunno if faith was bi, i thought she was all over any breathing (and non breathing) guy too much to be interested in girls aswel, lol

Darling Faithy

04-22-2006, 07:45 PM

I think Faith is a creature of passion, and alot of people are like that *cough me.hehe. cough* also I believe that everyone is gay to some extent, and to the circumstance, so maybe Faith was just used to same sex situations, it could be alot of things to render a solid guess, im thinkin' anyways..

FahrbotDrusilla

04-22-2006, 07:53 PM

I always got a maybe-bi vibe from her, I do think that the chemistry between her and Buffy was similar to that of Spike and Angel.

(for the record I do think BUFFY is too... something, to be Bi)

hyperballadbrad

04-23-2006, 03:23 PM

No i don think so.... she's not the most feminine flower in the garden but she's a man's girl i think

Edmund Blackadder

04-24-2006, 06:24 PM

No i don think so.... she's not the most feminine flower in the garden but she'sa man's girl i think

Exactly, as much as might be confident in her sexuality, she just loves the cock....wow, i'm seriously in the wrong place tonight!!!

Xin Rong

04-24-2006, 07:54 PM

I think she just had an incredibly strong sex vibe, oooziingg with pheremones, around girls and boys, but I doubt she'd be the type to experiment with bisexuality, unless it was for a man, just the vibe i got

Helpless

04-30-2006, 01:08 PM

She may have given off the vibe, but I doubt it was true. Joss Whedon would have explored into a bit more, or else he would have let it be because of the already Willow and Tara relationship going on. I doubt she was though...

Carousel Girl8

05-01-2006, 11:34 AM

I think Faith just liked to shock people so I wouldn't have been surprised if she was bi, but it could just be her personality as she is a real tomboy.

DarkBuffy

05-01-2006, 02:19 PM

Well actually I think she is, cuz I think almost like her and I can be if I want, so I think she is!

1-800-Willow-Rosenberg

06-19-2006, 09:09 PM

OH TOTALLY BI i don´t doubt that she didn´t sleep with a woman before. maybe it was buffy??? lol that sexual tension was so obvious u´d have to be blind not to see that faith liked buffy alot. Bet ya there was wet dreams lol

Black Eye Guy

06-20-2006, 05:58 PM

Well actually I think she is, cuz I think almost like her and I can be if I want, so I think she is!

lol, I really don't think thats evidence that faith was bi.

doppelgänger

06-23-2006, 07:33 AM

Bi? What the hell was I thinking? Don't you people know she's gay? GAY I TELL YOU!

I have video evidence, thank you very much.

eponinethen

06-23-2006, 02:18 PM

Lol :P We'll have podcast evidence too in a few weeks, eheh..

doppelgänger

06-23-2006, 03:48 PM

Ah! Yes! Podcasts evidence produced by Fran and Epo. SO there.

Croft Storm

06-24-2006, 09:28 AM

I don't think she was bi as such, but she'd probably be up for anything. Presumably something involving Lindsey and Illyria.

I guess we'll never know for sure...

Randy Giles

07-13-2006, 07:58 PM

Well Eliza Dushku is just plain HOTT, I think she could create sexual tension with ANYONE, be it man or woman. As for Faith, I think she just flirts with girls to show how cocky and confident she is, but I don't think she's bi. I could picture her experimenting after getting wasted one night maybe but I think she's straight, at least I've never thought she was bi.

I mainly just want her for myself. Mmm-mmm good.

nerd4hire

07-13-2006, 09:35 PM

Faith in Buffy's body
So...Willow's not driving stick anymore.

That doesn't mean anything. I just like that line. :D

Charity

07-15-2006, 09:12 PM

I don't think she's bi so much as very sexual, and not caring who she expresses i t on. She's very open about things, and I think she just doesn't think about a sexual orientation.

angeldarla

08-08-2006, 07:29 PM

she talked a lot about the guys she slept with, but never talked about girls. i think that if she was bi she should have talked cause she says everything that is on her mind, good or bad stuff.

eponinethen

08-10-2006, 05:26 PM

It is possible that she was bi even if she hadn't actually done stuff with a girl at that point though :)

jesi76082

08-10-2006, 08:09 PM

Even if she hasn't done stuff on the show with girls, all evidence leads us to believe she is. The sexual tension between countless other woman (Buffy, Lilah, ect.)

nerd4hire

08-14-2006, 03:20 PM

The sexual tension between countless other woman (Buffy, Lilah, ect.)

Uhm...huh? Lilah? Think about that.

Actually, the only one other than Buffy where I sensed anything remotely like girl on girl chemistry was possibly Kennedy, and that was only coming from Kennedy.

I definitely didn't sense anything between Faith and Willow or Cordelia.

Then again, I've got no "gaydar". But tell me...who were these "countless women"?

eponinethen

08-15-2006, 05:23 AM

Yeah I didn't see the countless women either, but I know some people say they do. Then again, I've got no geydar either... But yeah, the Fuffy tension is obvious...

Wicked

08-15-2006, 05:54 AM

There werent countless other women. There was Buffy, Willow, Lilah and the potentials. That was about all she interacted with for more than a few seconds.

I get the Lilah thing, kinda. When Lilah approached her to kill Angel. But I dont get all these other women.

nerd4hire

08-15-2006, 10:14 AM

I'm going to have to watch Five by Five again. I don't think I got it. You see the impression I'm left with is Faith was under the impression Lilah was attracted to her, and she was going to use that to rob her. How would that make her gay?

I always got the impression Faith was coming out of some mean streets in her youth, and wasn't above using her sexuality to get where she wanted to be, but if she really did like the women she wouldn't have been shy about letting anyone know about it. Personally if they ever did make her actually Bi I would have viewed that as a bit of a sellout of the character.

Wicked

08-15-2006, 10:19 AM

No, I agree, what I mean is, I see how people could mistake it for sexual tension.

eponinethen

08-15-2006, 03:39 PM

I always got the impression Faith was coming out of some mean streets in her youth, and wasn't above using her sexuality to get where she wanted to be, but if she really did like the women she wouldn't have been shy about letting anyone know about it. Personally if they ever did make her actually Bi I would have viewed that as a bit of a sellout of the character.
Again, I don't think she walked around thinking she was bi, I just think there was an atraction between her and Buffy. If Faith had actually said she was bi, that would have been kind of lame. But I don't doubt for a second she had the "ability" to be attracted to women. Or. Um. Buffy.

Black Eye Guy

08-15-2006, 06:01 PM

I would see Faith as a very sexual character, She wouldn't be afraid to flirt with anyone and everyone to get what she wants. But I don't think she would go so far to act upon those it. Although I can't see her charcter as bi, I could see her having a fling with a girl

chosenseries

08-15-2006, 10:49 PM

errr..... no comment

spuffylvr

08-16-2006, 01:54 AM

I think Faith had no idea who she was, except that she was uncomfortable with herself and her place as the second slayer. The one thing I got was that she wanted to be Buffy, but since she couldn't do that (for the most part) she just wanted to be closer to Buffy, and since Faith was ruled by her physicality, I think it came off more sexual than it actually was.

roguedemoness

08-18-2006, 07:23 AM

Honestly, I think that Faith had the potential to experiment, no matter what her 'true' sexuality may be. I agree with Spuffylvr when she says that Faith dosen't really know WHO she is. I think, however, that Faith is the kind of girl who would be open minded and try out sex with another woman if she got the opportunity. Faith dosen't seem to be concerned with social mores, or what others think-she is a very confused person, but in the process of finding herself, i believe that she has been sexually experimentative (we know from the show that she has done this in a 'straight' context, but that dosen't mean that she wouldn't have lesbian sex as part of the process as well). I think that Faith might have the potential to be bisexual. Its certainly a strong possibility. Besides, I know alot of women who call themselves 'straight' who have been known to experiment from time to time. The fact is, more people are bisexual than purely straight or purely gay. The lines that define sexuality are rarely as clear as society has taught us to believe.

Az89

09-08-2006, 10:51 AM

i think faith was just not fussy lol or greedy wanted bit of everything :)

TabulaRasa

09-08-2006, 12:39 PM

I think she was bi for sure. No doubts, felt it from the first moment I say her anyways.

TabulaRasa

09-08-2006, 06:43 PM

lol, well I meant to say SAW her, anyways, here is something I wanted to add.

FAITH
That’s not what we… Buffy got ’em this far.
THE FIRST/MAYOR WILKINS
Why are you protecting her? You think she cares about
you? She nearly killed you, Faith.
FAITH
It’s different now.

THE FIRST/MAYOR WILKINS
Deep down, you always wanted Buffy to accept you, to
love you even. Why do you think that is?
(I'd say cause she has a thing for Buffy of course)

BUFFY
Do you see this? This may actually help me fight my war.
This might be the key to everything. And the reason I’m
holding it is because of you. Because of the strength that
you gave me last night. I am tired of defensiveness and
weird mixed signals. You know what? I have Faith for
that.

JoeHundredaire

09-08-2006, 09:11 PM

I think she was just a lot more into the whole 'hungry and horny' thing than Buffy was and wasn't particularly concerned with who her partner was. Hypersexual, rather than hetero/homo/bisexual. Faith is also quoted as having borderline personality disorder by the Wiki article on her (which I assume came from some interview, comic, or printed material that's not on the show), which adds to the hypersexual idea. "People with BPD exhibit other impulsive behaviors, such as excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex. BPD often occurs together with other psychiatric problems, particularly bipolar disorder, depression, attention deficit disorder, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, eating disorders and other personality disorders."

A bit more on BPD...
While a patient with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of depression, anxiety, or anger that may last only minutes, hours, or at most a day. These may be associated with episodes of self-injury (including cutting), impulsive aggression, and drug or alcohol abuse. Difficulties in cognition and sense of self can lead to frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, gender identity, friendships, and values. Sometimes people with BPD view themselves as fundamentally bad or unworthy. They may feel unfairly misunderstood or mistreated, bored, empty, and have little idea who they are. Such symptoms are most acute when people with BPD feel isolated and lacking in social support, and may result in frantic efforts to avoid being alone. Ironically, it is the desperate clinging to other people that often serves as the very catalyst for conflict that drives others away.

I know that Whedon was intending to turn Willow or Xander homosexual during season 4 and so season 3 was riddled with stuff like Larry and Xander, or VampWillow's bisexuality just to see how people reacted to the idea that each was gay. I wonder if Faith was introduced originally for Willow/Faith if they took the lesbian route, but was then sacrified due to an inability to contract her for long-term use on the show? Like how we got Andrew in the AtS S5 episode with Dana, just because nobody else was available? They couldn't secure Eliza for more than a solid season, so she was written out at the end of S3, and popped back in here or there until the tail end of S7?

TabulaRasa

09-08-2006, 09:20 PM

Ha, that was interesting to read, thank you.

JoeHundredaire

09-08-2006, 09:27 PM

Ha, that was interesting to read, thank you.
I'm a great source of semiuseful psychiatric information like that. o_O

Wilkins

09-09-2006, 03:31 AM

Faith - I know the type, and she is defenitily straight (If you have to pick one or the other). But at the same time she's always openminded. And that's just how it works, the borderline between "bi" an "not bi" can in the human psychic be very blurry. Just because you play for one team steadely and knows that there's were you belong, it does'nt mean that you can't, sometime, if the impuls happen to grab you after a bottle of wine, or after a good slay perhaps, just play around for the fun with it with someone else.

willowwitch

09-10-2006, 09:11 PM

Well I personally believe that Faith is "bi". I thought that several lines in the show were "hints" especially where Buffy said she received "mixed signals" from Faith. A woman or girl would not say she was receiving mixed signals from another female if it was not pertaining to sexuality.

I dont think that persons who are involved romantically with someone of the same sex can be described as someone who has "impulses after they have had a bottle of wine". I believe that human beings are normally aware of what gender they have romantic feelings for and I do not think that it comes from an adrenalin rush (slaying perhaps) or just "playing around for fun".

JoeHundredaire

09-10-2006, 10:25 PM

No, but being hypersexual due to a psychiatric condition tends to override your traditional gender preferences.

JoeHundredaire

09-11-2006, 04:28 PM

I COULD be wrong, maybe you could clarify whether my interpretation of your position is accurate or not. :rolleyes:

A psychiatric condition can cause hypersexuality in a person, this hypersexuality apparently can override a persons desire through chemistry to switch their urges towards a different gender.Skipping the discussion about what percentage of people may have latent bisexual tendencies they never act on, think of this. People pleasure themselves. Does that somehow make them homosexual because they're deriving pleasure from their own gender? Pleasure is pleasure and in the case of hypersexual individuals, they aren't particularly choosey as to what parts the body has as long as the individual is willing.
You are a source of psychiatric "information". Information is knowledge, knowledge is by basic definition, experience. So you are a source of psychiatric experience.Or I coulda, yunno, put "borderline personality disorder" into Wikipedia after seeing it in the Trivia section of the Faith Lehane entry, and cut and pasted the two segments into the post above. I possess a fair amount of knowledge of many psychiatric conditions, although I don't have any personal experience with the majority of them. BPD actually is something I'm familiar with from personal experience, yes, but the nature of mental illness means that my experiences and any other given person's experiences (especially a fictional character) might bear only passing similarities. Also, many here could claim to be sources of information about Buffy... or Marvel comics... or Firefly... yet we haven't lived through that. Finally, please reference a dictionary next time you wish to throw out "basic definitions" of words.

knowledge (noun): acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation
An objective view is impossible, you can't understand something without using the experience you have obtained in your life. It is not possible. Therefore all opinions are subjective by the very understanding that your opinion is yours.Uh huh... right... please see above...
So ... are you using your life experiences to explain the possibility that Faith might be bisexual?No, but in high school I was acquainted with a girl who had hypersexual tendencies due to a plethora of psychiatric conditions and it caused considerable stress with her Roman Catholic family.

JoeHundredaire

09-11-2006, 05:23 PM

Relativist fallacy. Just because you "pleasure" yourself, doesn't mean I do, or that anyone else does.

Is reading an experience? How does a person study, investigate etc? You can't acquaint yourself with facts, truths by non experience.

Yeah..Do not think that I don’t notice your surreptitious attempts to undermine my majesty. You precipitate yourself into a conflict devoid of conviviality. Return back to your perambulatory nature, where it is not deleterious to your self worth. That was never your nature? Yeah, you're right, your ignorance meets your worthlessness equidistantly in the little one stem neuron you call a brain.
In other words, your ability to participate in this conversation has reached an end but you are unwilling to stop trying to draw attention to yourself?

JoeHundredaire

09-11-2006, 05:35 PM

My..ability.. to participate..

Yes, you indeed are correct, professor. That I knocked your silly little points out the stratosphere, that you haven't debated, because you are unable to successfully do so, means I can no longer contribute to the conversation.

Oh, I posted, am I contributing?You made a bizarre argument we can't possibly know anything we didn't actually go through ourselves (you are familiar with the concept of books, right?), coupled with a crude sexual attack that the moderators had to edit. Then when I responded, you typed up something than reminds me of V on an acid trip. How did you debate anything, let alone come to the conclusion that you've outwitted me?

VisionGuy

09-11-2006, 05:38 PM

I think Faith was just really freaky in the sexual sense, but I wouldn't call her bi.

JoeHundredaire

09-11-2006, 05:41 PM

I think Faith was just really freaky in the sexual sense, but I wouldn't call her bi.Yeah. To me bisexual implies that you'd actually have a life partner of either gender (err, one guy OR one girl, not one of each at the same time), as opposed to just taking either gender to bed before kicking them out in the morning.

JoeHundredaire

09-11-2006, 05:45 PM

I made the opposite argument, nimrod.You really do have some serious problems.Are you reading your own posts? You decided that since I knew about psychiatric disability, I must have experienced it. You obviously never considered that there is copious written material by numerous professionals available both on the Internet and in print.
Making a suggestion that you might be homosexual due to some of your comments is not crude. I have no problem with homosexuality, if you think it is crude that's up to you.The mods obviously thought it was crude, else it would still be here... no?
Outwitted you? You would have to have wits for me to outwit you, you are unarmed, I'm afraid.*pats your head* Just keep telling yourself that.

SpikedBuffy

09-11-2006, 06:44 PM

Hey guys! Back on topic here!

Please continue debating about Faith and not each other :)

Buffy Summers

09-12-2006, 04:45 PM

Yeah. To me bisexual implies that you'd actually have a life partner of either gender (err, one guy OR one girl, not one of each at the same time), as opposed to just taking either gender to bed before kicking them out in the morning.
Why does being bisexual imply a life partner any more than being heterosexual implies a husband/wife?

JoeHundredaire

09-13-2006, 07:53 AM

Why does being bisexual imply a life partner any more than being heterosexual implies a husband/wife?Because there are very few heterosexual people who AREN'T messed up in the head who go through life without ever having a relationship of some sort with the opposite sex even if they don't get married? I substituted in life partner in lieu of the term boyfriend or girlfriend, I didn't necessarily mean they'd undergo civil union or move to Mass to get married.

As postmortem pointed out, Faith probably wouldn't spend her life with either gender... but then again, I said people who aren't messed up in the head. Whether or not Wiki is correct and she was meant to be portayed as having BPD, you can't honestly say that there isn't SOMETHING wrong in Faith's head.

eponinethen

09-13-2006, 10:02 AM

Well it depends on how you look at it. Most people aren't 100% straight or gay, and most bisexuals definitely don't like both sexes equally during their entire life. Most bisexuals I know, did at some point prefer guys and at another point girls (and that can change during your life, imo). So, I don't think it's fair to say that for you to be a real bisexual, you have to consider both guys and girls to be interesting as life partners.
However, being an "openminded" person who once in a while has sex with someone of the same sex, does not make you bisexual.

Mesektet Ra

09-14-2006, 04:14 AM

Jill_Valentine

09-20-2006, 11:04 AM

Charlize Theron, talking about Aileen Wuornos, said that she didn't think Aileen was a lesbian or bisexual. Simply that she'd been so brutalised by her experiences that she'd respond to any close human contact. I'd say the same for Faith, to be honest. Her take on gender politics is just too broken to take her behaviour as a face value reflection of her sexual orientation.

JoeHundredaire

09-23-2006, 01:38 PM

I stand with epo and Buffy. I, myself, am bisexual, and I don't nessecarily consider being bi having to consider other girls as life partners. BUT I also don't believe in having both a guy and a girl at the same time - been there, too many problems, and I'm all for the monagamy thing anyways. I just like chicks, that's how I roll.

Anyway, is Faith bi. YES. I make that a resounding YES. She just is. I can't really put my finger on a specific, and it's not just Buffy she's after. She likes girls in general. I just get the feeling.
But if she was, don't you think they might have done something with it? Take the body swap. She could have caused greater harm to the group dynamics by messing around (or trying to) with Willow and/or Tara. They could have done Willow/Faith as broken girls trying to help each other in S7. Instead, they've done Willow/Kennedy and Faith/Robin. Along with Faith/Riley, Faith flirting with Spike, Faith screwing Xander, etc.

Like I said, I doubt the Wiki pulled her being BPS out of thin air so I assume it's from an interview or script notes. Combine that with the fact that she made passes at girls (with all the subtlety of a tank) but never did anything (when the script would have given the chance) to express a homo or bisexual orientation, I think she's just messed up in the head.

nerd4hire

09-23-2006, 03:17 PM

Like I said, I doubt the Wiki pulled her being BPS out of thin air so I assume it's from an interview or script notes.

Why wouldn't they? It's not like they've never made unsubstantiated claims before. It's one of my biggest, personal complaints about using the site for reference without double-checking claims.

Here are the Google pages for Faith, and borderline personality disorder.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&hs=o0X&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=buffy+faith+borderline+personality+disorder&spell=1

Find me a supporting reference. Without one the claim by Wikipedia means nothing. It's simply a contributor (who could be anybody) with an opinion.

JoeHundredaire

09-23-2006, 09:19 PM

Given that I doubt Joss even knows what BPS is, I'd doubt there's an article you'd pull with the exact phrase. But she's clearly mentally unstable and it does match up with a lot of her symptoms.

*shrugs* You could substitute any above ref to BPS with one of a number of pyschological disorders and it would still explain deviant sexual behavior without being truly bisexual. My point stands.

EDIT: And before someone jumps on me, I'm not labeling anything other than heterosexuality as 'deviant'. I mean her behavior deviates from any true standard of sexuality (hetero/homo/bisexual). My best friend is a bisexual hermaphrodite. I'm not saying bisexuals don't exist, I'm just saying I don't think Faith is one.

nerd4hire

09-23-2006, 11:46 PM

That's OK. I'm not really disagreeing with you. As I said above, Jill Valentine has kind of sold me on her theory. That one doesn't necessarily contradict yours.

It's the Wikipedia thing that's the bug. It's my pet peeve that people sometimes hold it up like it's a stone tablet from God. It isn't. It's information that may be generally accepted fact, or may be just another opinion from another internet user.

white avenger

10-01-2006, 10:31 AM

Whedon once said that he didn't realise it at the time, upon reviewing the Faith episodes, he had to agree that Faith had "fallen" for Buffy. Wood hints at it in Season Seven when he says that Faith "cares a lot more about Buffy" than she's willing to admit. I personaly believe that there was an attraction there, but neither girl reacted to it because of their otherwise hetero orientation. I've always believed the same thing about Willow and Tara, that the attraction between them was both special and exclusive, which is why I could never accept the Willow/Kennedy pairing in Season Seven.

Jules

10-09-2006, 03:05 AM

I didn't think that Faith was bi. I got the impression that she liked to push the boundaries of people's expectations. She liked shocking people and I think she would have done anything to be noticed.

vipersgirl

10-29-2006, 09:00 AM

She also gave that vibe off to me. It would make sense if she was more than if she wasnt bi.

FaithFan2005

11-25-2006, 04:24 PM

Maybe she wasnt maybe she was nobody seems to know this but she does give that vibe.

The Watcher

12-10-2006, 10:48 AM

She's just crazy, that's all.

Veronica Mars

12-11-2006, 06:56 AM

morningblue

12-17-2006, 06:14 PM

Love of Fuffy aside, my personal opinion on this is that if you want to see it you will, but if you dont you wont. There are subtexty bits in the show that can lead you to conclude such things, but theres few enough allow them to be dismissed.

I think thats what makes Faith so cool, theres so much you dont know about her. This thread alone is proof enough that a conclusion cant be reached because there really isnt enough evidence. And i think thats awesome.

Wow , totally agree with you. it's just depens on what you think or wanted her to be. Personally I did see that vibe but i Just don't care if she's straight or bi or whatever. I think her character just like that you know , mysterious she's always do whatever she wanted to. i don't think we'll know the real answer

white avenger

12-20-2006, 01:10 PM

Lol, i'd have to agree! She certainly gave off that vibe, especially with the interaction between her and Buffy...what was that about?! And the whole drawing a love heart on the window when going to Buffy's class? Hell yeah there was a vibe going on!

The so-called "love heart" on the window was a heart with a stake through it, in other words, she was indicating that it was time to do some slaying. That said, I agree that there is a definate sexual attraction between our two favorite Slayers.

Bubbles

12-30-2006, 08:27 PM

Well look at it from a character point of view and not the actor herself.

Faith is attracted(and not always sexually) to power, the Mayor and Angel, Giles and Buffy. And Faith also just wants to get off(hence the usage of Xander and the use it and lose it attitude she has towards men) so it could be a mixture of both that she gives off that vibe.

I don't think Joss intended it to be that way, at least thats MHO.

Faith's character is kind of written as a foil for Buffy, everything Buffy's too afraid to express(or to aware of the consequences). But Faith is essentially written as a very sexuall and cocky creature. She just liked to irk people out, shock them, and kind of toe the line of danger. She'd prolly be up for anything but I don't think she's bi.

TrueDarkness

03-14-2007, 01:38 AM

I know of two people who would like to think Faith/Eliza was Bi.

eponinethen

03-14-2007, 02:42 PM

I know of two people who would like to think Faith/Eliza was Bi.
I know many many more :D

(Obviously incl. me...)

hyperballadbrad

03-16-2007, 12:47 PM

No she's not - she's just feisty I think

Teh Torey

07-25-2007, 01:51 PM

I agree that Faith sometimes gave off a vibe hinting toward bisexuality. However, I think her behavior can be summed up to what Bubbles suggested.

If the power-scenario doesn't satisfy your theory, keep in mind that Faith is a very sexual being. Because of her nature, it is possible that we've read into her sexuality far too much.

Panda

07-25-2007, 03:14 PM

yep i definitely get the i like girls vibe. but she obviously likes boys. or better yet boys that buffy is involved with.

in the commentary doug petrie was saying eliza kept pushing faith's sexuality. so if faith was never meant to be gay eliza sure played her that way well WINK WINK HAH!

all joking aside i totally think faith was bi.

Mortal

07-25-2007, 06:33 PM

i vote not bi per se, but would do another (hot) girl in a pinch or if she had something to prove or gain by it...

Canon

07-26-2007, 09:57 AM

I recently re-watched season 3 and it really does seem like Faith could be bi. I dunno whether the vibe just seemed stronger after reading this thread or not, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that she was bi.

MLLamble

08-21-2007, 05:34 PM

I think that Faith might be bi for a couple of reasons:
1. In the episode "Bad Girls", she fogs up a window during one of Buffy's classes and draws a little heart in the fog.
2. She kind of gives off a "if it's cute, I'll sleep with it" vibe. (not to say that all, or even most, bisexual people are slutty, just Faith. And Jack from Doctor Who)

FaithyFivebyFive

08-24-2007, 12:56 AM

I know many many more

(Obviously incl. me...)

*Waves hand in the air* me too me too!

Anyway, I feel she could be. Like in the Bad girls commentary, Doug said there was always lesbian subtext between them. And I don't have this opinion just because I also happen to be a Fuffy supporter, I just judge from the chemistry in Season 3. Come on, the classic dance scene... Very hot.

Blondie Bear

08-24-2007, 09:46 AM

I think that Faith might be bi for a couple of reasons:
1. In the episode "Bad Girls", she fogs up a window during one of Buffy's classes and draws a little heart in the fog.

Ah, but then she draws a line (symbolizing a stake, I thought) going into the heart. It's a subtle slayer code to tell Buffy that there's a vampire thing going on so she'll leave class and go with Faith. It wasn't a cutesy heart, it was an evil vampire heart. :silly:

eponinethen

08-25-2007, 03:23 AM

Yes, that is the actual reason she draws the heart, and I don't think it's a sign she's bi, but if you're a Fuffy fan (and I am), that lil heart still makes you pretty happy and definitely means more than vampire slayage...

FaithyFivebyFive

08-25-2007, 08:36 AM

Edmund Blackadder

08-25-2007, 09:58 AM

Well, yes if you are a Fuffy fan that heart bit does make you happy... But then remember she 'stabs' the heart with her finger? If you're thinking like a Fuffy fan, you could say that symbolizes that Faith will eventually break Buffy's heart. ;)

Or you could imagine that heart represents Faiths belief that love is all about the 'sex' and that heart symbolizes the ladies private area and that stabbing motion is less an attack and more a suggestion;)

TabulaRasa

08-26-2007, 09:35 PM

eponinethen

08-27-2007, 01:58 AM

Or you could imagine that heart represents Faiths belief that love is all about the 'sex' and that heart symbolizes the ladies private area and that stabbing motion is less an attack and more a suggestion;)
Hahah never heard that theory :D Still going for the heart part and sure she used the staking of a vampire as an excuse to draw a heart, but hey I don't care :P

FaithyFivebyFive

08-27-2007, 04:04 AM

Haha that's certainly a more... Broader way of looking at it lol. Much better than mine!

Edmund Blackadder

08-28-2007, 11:42 AM

Well its that mental Image that keeps me warm at night...well, I add Kendra too

nerd4hire

09-06-2007, 08:20 PM

Ah...8 pages of conjecture, then 1 frame of a comic makes it all moot. It's canon now. Faith is not bisexual.

If you want to fight your way past some spoilers for the current canon Buffy season 8 issue you can see the frame at the link below. It's the pic at the very bottom of the series.

Canon Watch (Spoilers for current issue) - Page 2 - Buffy-Boards (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=32610&page=2)

white avenger

09-06-2007, 08:36 PM

I can't believe that we've been hacking at this for as long as we have. Talk about a dog with a bone!

ILLYRIAN

09-06-2007, 10:53 PM

But is the dog a bitch ?

Edmund Blackadder

09-07-2007, 06:43 AM

white avenger

09-07-2007, 07:39 AM

Whether Faith is or isn't bi-sexual is really a moot point since we all know that Joss can and will change anything he wants to about anything or anybody within his universe into anything he wants them to be. He's killed them, changed them from dedicated school teacher to gypsy spy, from corn fed Iowa boy to deadly commando, from souled vampire to monster and back again, from hero to villain, from villain, and probably from Democrat to Republican, and it's all for one reason: BECAUSE HE CAN. So, I will say this about Faith: as we speak, she appears to be completely heterosexual. But there are no positives in the Whedonverse.

doppelgänger

09-07-2007, 08:23 AM

Sorry, I might be a right plum, but where does it state that Faith is not Bisexual?

I am part of the 'She's straight' crowd, but I can't find the part where she says I don't do any ladies, just that she 'won't go down town on this chick'.

Agreed! FIY; I almost died of shock when reading said frame, but then above comment saved my life.

I will choose to interpret this as following; so Faith doesn't like to go down town with just anyone. But heck, neither do I and I have yet to lose my lezzie-club membership.

Edmund Blackadder

09-07-2007, 10:05 AM

Agreed! FIY; I almost died of shock when reading said frame, but then above comment saved my life.

I will choose to interpret this as following; so Faith doesn't like to go down town with just anyone. But heck, neither do I and I have yet to lose my lezzie-club membership.

Who would have thought that a "She's not gay or Bi" would be the shining beacon of hope for all the Lesbians and men with wild Buffydom fantasies.

You are all welcome - unless there is actually a definitive, inarguable comment out there that states she is only into men.

doppelgänger

09-07-2007, 10:28 AM

- unless there is actually a definitive, inarguable comment out there that states she is only into men.

That would perhaps be Faith herself, in cannon, stating to the world (in a microphone perhaps with speakers spread out to fans all over the world) "I am not a homo- or bisexual woman. I am only into doing the dirty with people of the opposite sex. For all the Lesbians and men with wild Buffydom fantasies that feel the need to pass out now, paramedics are on the way. Thank you and I apologize for any inconvenience."

Edmund Blackadder

09-07-2007, 10:35 AM

I wish I was Xander in season 3!!!

actually 2, 4, 5 and 6 Xander was pretty lucky too.

I want to be Willow in season 4(including a bit of Oz lovin), 5 and 7(I hate Kennedy with a passion, but man is she hot) also.

nerd4hire

09-07-2007, 01:36 PM

Sorry, I might be a right plum, but where does it state that Faith is not Bisexual?

I am part of the 'She's straight' crowd, but I can't find the part where she says I don't do any ladies, just that she 'won't go down town on this chick'.

I would like to use this reference that catagorically states Faith doesn't do the 'Lick the V' so I can do my 'I TOLD YOU SO' dance.

I knew somebody was going to say that, and I was pretty sure it was going to be you. :) But come on, we know what Faith means by that, just as we knew what she meant when she said Willow wasn't into "driving stick" any more.

If Joss thought of Faith as being bi, would he have allowed Brian K Vaughan to make that statement?

I could see him letting it slip if he had some germ of an idea Faith might have a bisexual experience in the future, but not if he was going to introduce bisexuality into the history of Faith's experience. It's clear to me what's being said at the time of the speaking it. Faith doesn't swing that way.

Edmund Blackadder

09-07-2007, 06:39 PM

I knew somebody was going to say that, and I was pretty sure it was going to be you. :) But come on, we know what Faith means by that, just as we knew what she meant when she said Willow wasn't into "driving stick" any more.

If Joss thought of Faith as being bi, would he have allowed Brian K Vaughan to make that statement?

I could see him letting it slip if he had some germ of an idea Faith might have a bisexual experience in the future, but not if he was going to introduce bisexuality into the history of Faith's experience. It's clear to me what's being said at the time of the speaking it. Faith doesn't swing that way.

Well, I aim to be predictable!!!

Don't get me wrong, i'm of the belief that Faith, as sexual as she is, is straight, I just see that the 'evidence' isn't 100% clear cut.

Also, anyone who likes a good debate will know, the best way to 'win'(or at least satisfy yourself you are right) is to look at all the arguments from all points of view, even if some haven't been made, just so you can show that you have taken it all into account and you still come to the same conclusion.

nerd4hire

09-07-2007, 08:54 PM

Also, anyone who likes a good debate will know, the best way to 'win'(or at least satisfy yourself you are right) is to look at all the arguments from all points of view, even if some haven't been made, just so you can show that you have taken it all into account and you still come to the same conclusion.

Very well then, inferior debater that I am I'll do my best to keep up. You'll just have to be patient.

My first problem is I don't see how there's anything to debate. The Faith is bi side seems to be pretty much based on wishful thinking. I'm going to assume if I've read this thread, which I have, I've heard that side. It seems to go. We never saw her not having sex with women, therefore she most likely did. So basically they're saying prove it didn't happen, and if you can't then it did. It's what we inferior debaters like to call a specious argument.

The Faith is hetero side would most likely start at the Faith is a sexual person position. We see and hear her sexual exploits. They are always with men. Not sometimes, or usually - always. She likes sex, and she always has sex with guys. That's our first hint.

Then along comes this...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithnotGay.jpg

She doesn't even want to see a picture of the girl. Just for arguments sake let's pretend her target was a guy. A guy as hot as Lady G obviously is. Would the subject even come up about her not considering seduction to get close to that guy? What would that sound like coming out of Faith's mouth, "If you expect me to go downtown with this guy to get close to him you've got the wrong slayer". It would sound false because in that case they clearly would have precisely the right slayer. She did Riley just to get revenge on Buffy, and he wasn't even her type.

She's saying she doesn't do girls. There's no other way to look at it.

Panda

09-07-2007, 10:13 PM

she's turning down the girl because she OBVIOUSLY still is in love with buffy :silly:

eponinethen

09-08-2007, 03:06 AM

You sex-obsessed straight people...

Seriously, that' no kind of "proof" what so ever. Just 'cause she's willing to have sex with a random guy, but not a random girl, does not mean she isn't ever attracted to girls. And I have no idea if Faith ever slept with a girl, but you're not automatically defining yourself as straight if you haven't. Personally I don't think Faith defines herself as straight, bi or gay – but sexual. I think it's pretty obvious Faith and Buffy had major chemistry/attraction, and that they could have – in a different situation – acted on that. Does that mean she has no preference, does that mean she sleeps with as many girls as guys? No. I just think she is attracted (sexually) to women as well as men.
The fact that she turns down sex with a random girl is no kind of proof the other way.

doppelgänger

09-08-2007, 04:18 AM

N4H, sorry to be so blunt, but I'd say that a inferior debater wouldn't call on the opposite sides arguments as just "emotions", as for your claim that the Faith-is-bi sides argumnets are based on wishful thinking. I mean, that's a classic; I've seen that behaviour in desperate people who are running out of arguments ;)

I wouldn't say I'm on the Faith-is-bi side, but I am definitely not on the Faith-is-straight side either. I'd say I'm more on the Faith-is-just-a-sexual-being-and-lets-just-leave-it-at-that side.

We never saw her not having sex with women, therefore she most likely did. So basically they're saying prove it didn't happen, and if you can't then it did. It's what we inferior debaters like to call a specious argument.

Well, that's not true in my case. I do not base my arguments on assumption and wishful thinking; I base my arguments in part on the DVD-commentary to episode 3x14 Bad Girls where writer Douglas Petrie says about the "Again with the grunting"-scene outside the school

"And here we got the [...] lesbian subtext between these two , which was always fun to play with. Eliza was always kinda pushing the sexuality, and no one remember to stop her from doing that. Which we're all happy about."

This to me says that at least there was some kind of sexual tension between Buffy and Faith.

The Faith is hetero side would most likely start at the Faith is a sexual person position. We see and hear her sexual exploits. They are always with men. Not sometimes, or usually - always. She likes sex, and she always has sex with guys. That's our first hint.

I could give you as much as Faith [I]perhaps not having any sexual encounters with women proir to her arrival at Sunnydale, but that does not say anything about her later encounters. I'm not saying that she went on boinking every girl she saw after leaving Sunnydale in season 4; heck I'm not sure if I even believe that she had anything gayish going on except with Buffy. But I would still claim that above statement is not less of assumption and wishful thinking than the "We never saw her not having sex with women"-argument.

My counter-claim would be that there is something very important not taken into consideration here and that's FOX-executives, whom Joss had to brawl with in order to allow Willow and Tara kiss for the first time on-screen after being together for more than a year. Now, how long did it take Buffy and Riley to have their first ever on-screen kiss? 4 episodes, if we count from the episode (The Initiative) where Riley realizes he has a crush on Buffy. An out-and-proud bisexual Faith just wasn't happening in season 3. Not because she was in fact straight, but because FOX-execs wouldn't allow it. The famous kiss on the forhead in episode Enemies was scripted to be a kiss on the mouth but had to be changed. So, what if Joss was free to do whatever the heck he wanted with Faith as a character?

What would that sound like coming out of Faith's mouth, "If you expect me to go downtown with this guy to get close to him you've got the wrong slayer". It would sound false because in that case they clearly would have precisely the right slayer.

This damn frame is hard to argue against; but I'll give it a shot anyway. In this case I think it's more a question on how we interpret things (as in the world, people around us, society, sexuality etc) differently.

I am of the oppinion that you cannot prove that anyone is straight/bi/gay until that person says so herself/himself; most assumption of someone being straight are usually based on hetero-normative standards. And I'd like to bring a little queer into this mess. So she won't boink any random girl, how does that make her straight? So she would boink any random guy, how does that make her straight? Some people argue that Willow, because she had a little bit of Oz and a little bit of Xander, is in fact bisexual. But who could argue against Willow's "Hello? Gay now." when that's how she chooses to define herself?

Most gay/bi on screen characters have their "coming-out moment"; but some don't and prefer a more subtle approach. I'd say this is where Faith fits in perfectly. Perhaps she does define herself as straight, but that does not mean she never had any gayish thing going on with Buffy and that she could never have a gayish thing going on ever again.

Edmund Blackadder

09-08-2007, 06:42 AM

Very well then, inferior debater that I am I'll do my best to keep up. You'll just have to be patient.

No one said you were an inferior debater buddy, I was merely pointing out that as a debater you must have at least considered the 'evidence' from other points of view then come up with your opinion. I did that too, the only difference is I posted the other side of that, you didn't. It's 'no big'.

My first problem is I don't see how there's anything to debate. The Faith is bi side seems to be pretty much based on wishful thinking. I'm going to assume if I've read this thread, which I have, I've heard that side. It seems to go. We never saw her not having sex with women, therefore she most likely did. So basically they're saying prove it didn't happen, and if you can't then it did. It's what we inferior debaters like to call a specious argument.

The Faith is hetero side would most likely start at the Faith is a sexual person position. We see and hear her sexual exploits. They are always with men. Not sometimes, or usually - always. She likes sex, and she always has sex with guys. That's our first hint.

If you go back to my first post on this thread(8 FLIPPING PAGES OF SHE'S STRAIGHT, NO SHE'S BI - i this some of us need a life:( ) I actually used the term 'Wishful Thinking'. I'm right there with you on that. I haven't seen anything other than great chemistry between Eliza and Sarah and that, well that is says more about the actors than the characters. Hmm, interesting that I don't see anyone suggesting SMG and ED are secretly Bi for each other.

She doesn't even want to see a picture of the girl. Just for arguments sake let's pretend her target was a guy. A guy as hot as Lady G obviously is. Would the subject even come up about her not considering seduction to get close to that guy? What would that sound like coming out of Faith's mouth, "If you expect me to go downtown with this guy to get close to him you've got the wrong slayer". It would sound false because in that case they clearly would have precisely the right slayer. She did Riley just to get revenge on Buffy, and he wasn't even her type.

She's saying she doesn't do girls. There's no other way to look at it.

See thats the problem. The wording used is what can be argued.
"If you expect me to go downtown on this chick to get close to her you've got the wrong slayer".
She refers to this particular woman, not 'any' woman.

We could also use as an argument that Robin Wood had a more profound impact on her than even she thought.
Maybe she had some 'experiences' in Prison that have done this or the biggest possibility within the argument is that she sees sex with men as something to release excess energy. She doesn't connect it with emotion so she uses a guy as pretty much nothing more than a living dildo.
A woman however, thats where her emotion lies. She can't have random sex with a woman because thats where she would invest all her emotion in it and she isn't willing to become that vulnerable because it would leave her at a disadvantage.

Personally I still think she is only into the guys, but I wouldn't mind watching her get it on with Buffy...but then thats wishful thinking.

doppelgänger

09-08-2007, 07:58 AM

We could also use as an argument that Robin Wood had a more profound impact on her than even she thought.
Maybe she had some 'experiences' in Prison that have done this or the biggest possibility within the argument is that she sees sex with men as something to release excess energy. She doesn't connect it with emotion so she uses a guy as pretty much nothing more than a living dildo.
A woman however, thats where her emotion lies. She can't have random sex with a woman because thats where she would invest all her emotion in it and she isn't willing to become that vulnerable because it would leave her at a disadvantage.

Are you sure you are part of the Faith-is-straight crowd? Cause that's pretty much one of the main arguments that most Fuffy-shipper use when explaining what could be Faith's relationship to men. I'm not sure about the last part though. I'm with you on the living dildo thing, but I also believe that Faith could possibly use women as... living dildos... ehm. I think that Faith has issues with emotions in general, and probably more so when it comes to the ladies. So in the end, you're probably right anyway.

Edmund Blackadder

09-08-2007, 08:29 AM

Are you sure you are part of the Faith-is-straight crowd? Cause that's pretty much one of the main arguments that most Fuffy-shipper use when explaining what could be Faith's relationship to men. I'm not sure about the last part though. I'm with you on the living dildo thing, but I also believe that Faith could possibly use women as... living dildos... ehm. I think that Faith has issues with emotions in general, and probably more so when it comes to the ladies. So in the end, you're probably right anyway.

I'm 100% sure.

Like I said earlier to N4H, you have to be aware of all sides of an argument before you can have a valid opinion that you can contribute to a discussion.
I've read them all in regards to this topic and i'm still sure of her sexuality - I was just giving the arguments on why you need a definitive Whedon/Faith 'i'm straight' before we can ever know for 100% about stuff like this.

Mortal

09-08-2007, 08:41 AM

Hell, even if Faith isn't bi I wouldn't have previously put it past her to go down on another girl to see a mission through. The fact that she instantly shot that possibility down means that she finds the prospect distasteful. She's not even curious, she didn't stop to ponder the possibility, just a flat out rejection. Not bi, period.

white avenger

09-08-2007, 09:48 AM

We can argue this issue until the hellmouth freezes over, and the issue will never be settled one way or the other until Joss has Faith and Buffy (or some other female) actually have sex, because has, and will exercise that option anytime his evil twisted little heart pleases. He's already proven that canon means nothing to him if it gets in the way of what he considers a good. plot line. Why don't we all just agree that, up until this moment, Faith has not been shown expressing any gay or bisexual feelings. Beyond that, the Mighty Joss rules!

P S---Just because Willow fell deeply in love with one beautiful and extremely wonderful person who happened to be female, then, because the odds were pretty good that they could die at any moment, tried to recapture that feeling with with someone who turned out to not be worthy to polish Tara's shoes, let alone replace her in bed or Willow's life doesn't absolutely make her gay OR bi-sexual. It simply means that she let Kennedy manipulate her (remember what Kennedy said about being a brat and always getting her way?) into a relationship that was obviously a mistake from the beginning.

nerd4hire

09-08-2007, 12:36 PM

I'd like to make one thing crystal clear. I'm not saying Faith could never, under any circumstances have a bisexual experience. If Joss chose to give her one, of course she could. One could say the same of Cordelia, Fred, Harmony, or any other character. He could even bring C & F back from the dead to do it if he so chose.

I'm saying that the current comic frame when viewed in the context of Faith's obvious hetero preference up until this point clearly states Faith does not at this point view herself as gay, or bisexual.

doppelgänger

09-08-2007, 04:04 PM

I was just giving the arguments on why you need a definitive Whedon/Faith 'i'm straight' before we can ever know for 100% about stuff like this.

I agree! So fantastic that the opposite sides can agree :)
I feel like there is hope for world peace!

Why don't we all just agree that, up until this moment, Faith has not been shown expressing any gay or bisexual feelings. Beyond that, the Mighty Joss rules!

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that. Because it's not true that Faith has not been shown expressing any gay or bisexual feelings. Let me show you two examples of where she does too do that, IMO:

1) That I quoted from Mr. Petrie about the lesbian subtext between Buffy and Faith and how fun it was to play around with it.

2) Writer Jim Kouf, who wrote the episode Five by Five, added this to the scipt

LOUD MUSIC gushing into the street. A FEW BARFLIES enter as Faith exits with an attractive WOMAN. We may not see her face at first, just concentrate on Faith, who is a bit wobbly. (NOTE TO DIRECTOR AND ACTORS: Mind the lesbian subtext -- keep it very "sub".)

Two writers who mention lesbian subtext and what else does these scenes have in common? Yeah, Faith. You can't argue against subtext people!

IOne could say the same of Cordelia, Fred, Harmony, or any other character. He could even bring C & F back from the dead to do it if he so chose.

True, he could do whatever the heck he wanted with his characters, which he clearly does. And that's one reason why I at least love him. But I still do not agree that he could make any character bi/gay at any time and however he wanted. Well, one thing again are the FOX execs getting in the way of him.

There is a reason, IMO, why Xander and Willow were the two candidates for the who-will-be-teh-gay-one contest, and why Faith's lesbianess only was left to only subtext. Xander and Willow, in season 3, were pretty much harmless. No raw sexual persona, no walks on the wildside, no boinking the undead or even being undead themselves. For execs to accept the potrayal of a gay character in a teveshow, it would most certainly have to be a harmless one. Willow and Tara were perfect for that cause they were all vanilla-y unlike Faith who has yet to have any romantic relationship with anyone in the Buffyverse. She just wants to get some and get gone.

nerd4hire

09-08-2007, 04:41 PM

True, he could do whatever the heck he wanted with his characters, which he clearly does. And that's one reason why I at least love him. But I still do not agree that he could make any character bi/gay at any time and however he wanted. Well, one thing again are the FOX execs getting in the way of him.

Interesting accusation. Any prove? Myself, I think you've got your networks mixed up. Fox holds partial copyright to Buffy. My impression is Fox's attitude has always been, "go out and do what you do Joss, and keep making us money"

Fox never actually broadcasted BTVS. That was first the WB up until the end of season 5, then UPN. That was where any possible censorship might have occurred. Here's a bit from Wikipedia. I don't offer it as a paragon of truth, but I do say I agree with their explanation in this case.

However, broadcasting constraints from the WB meant that, unlike the heterosexual characters, Willow and Tara were not allowed to be shown in any sexual scenes. The couple did not have their first onscreen kiss until the Season Five episode, "The Body", almost a year after their relationship began. This changed significantly when Buffy switched networks to the more lenient UPN,

Willow Rosenberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Rosenberg)

OK, so fast forward to the comics. Is there any evidence Fox interferes with Joss editorially? If there's not then when Faith says in Buffy 8.06 she's not into girls sexually, it's only because she's not into girls sexually at that point, nor has she been up until that point. There are no editorial constraints from Fox here. 2007 at Dark Horse, is not 1997 at the WB.

doppelgänger

09-08-2007, 06:26 PM

I might have the networks all mixed up in my head (thank god for public service TV cause that's all I watch nowadays) but I don't think that matters too much anyway. Ragardless of my mixing it all up into a sordid mess, I will still like to claim that Joss couldn't do whatever he wanted cause of people with suits and money. Anyone who has ever worked with suits with money and producers know that artistic freedom is pretty much not existent and "a creatice process" is humbug.
Again I'd like to mention the kiss on the forehead in episode Enemies that had to be changed from a kiss on the mouth to a kiss on the forehead. Why? Cause Joss all of the sudden realized that "OMG y'alls! Faith ain't bi! We can't have her doing that!"? I'm not too sure.
As for "proof" of who said what and who did who and what and when and why, I don't have, sorry. As for now I have my own recollection of various Joss (and also Amber Benson) interviews where he (and she) speaks of this matter. I remember him talking about how reluctant some of the suits were to a) a full on lesbian kiss and b) a scene where two women are shown in a sexual context. Gay characters are always controversial, no one can argue that introducing a gay character into a teveshow in the 1990's was all drama free. Not taking that into consideration is just... being damn naive IMO.

nerd4hire

09-08-2007, 08:15 PM

The censorship by networkss only becomes a problem for me if you're suggesting Fox is exercising some kind of veto power when Joss and Brian say in 8.06 Faith is not bisexual. Although I'd challenge you if you're saying UPN was afraid to introduce the issue of sexuality homo, lesbian, or straight in Season 7.

I can accept the other stuff you mention as vague memories you recollect, except not his one.

Again I'd like to mention the kiss on the forehead in episode Enemies that had to be changed from a kiss on the mouth to a kiss on the forehead. Why? Cause Joss all of the sudden realized that "OMG y'alls! Faith ain't bi! We can't have her doing that!"? I'm not too sure.

That absolutely must be challenged. I say post a link, or it didn't happen.

As I heard it there was purpose to the forehead kiss.

Slayer kisses

In 3.17 Enemies, Angel kisses Buffy on her forehead in her bedroom and Faith kisses Buffy in the same place before running away after they fight. Buffy returns Faith's forehead kiss in 3.22 Graduation Day (Part Two), after putting the Slayer in a coma.

The Buffy and Angel Trivia Guide 3.17 Enemies (http://www.triviaguide.net/index.php?cat=766)

and even if that kiss was supposed to be on the lips it wasn't a sexual kiss, it had an entirely non-sexual inference. Here it is # 8 on Wizard's list of of Deadliest Moments.

8. Faith kisses Buffy on the forehead

“Enemies,” Season Three, Episode 51
The best moment in Buffy and Faith history is when the two slayers are fighting to the death in Season Three’s “Enemies” and end their scuff with knives at each other’s throat. Faith then kisses Buffy on the forehead and runs off. Up to this point, Buffy and Faith were frenemies, but now there was no more pretending. They hated each other. Faith was ready to embrace the killer in her, and Buffy began to accept her role as the sole slayer.

Wizard Entertainment (http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/003854629.cfm)

And even if a kiss on the lips had originally been proposed (which requires proof, before it can be taken seriously), and it was supposed to be a sexual kiss (which wouldn't make sense) that would have been during the WB days. If Joss had always wanted to introduce Faith as Bi then, why tell us now that she wasn't when there are no censorship constraints.

eponinethen

09-09-2007, 02:05 AM

The fact that she instantly shot that possibility down means that she finds the prospect distasteful. She's not even curious, she didn't stop to ponder the possibility, just a flat out rejection. Not bi, period.
This argument makes no sense what so ever. Like I said before, just 'cause she's willing to have sex with random guys (probably not ever guy she meets though, we don't know anything about that), and not with any random girl, does not mean she isn't ever attracted to girls.

I'm saying that the current comic frame when viewed in the context of Faith's obvious hetero preference up until this point clearly states Faith does not at this point view herself as gay, or bisexual.
Thank you for saying that she doesn't "view" herself as gay/bi. Imo you can't be gay/straight/bi, it's something you identify as. And no one but Faith can obviously decide for her. The problem here though is that people generally tend to choose to be straight if they can, a lot of people who are able to fall for "people of the same sex" choose not to act on those feelings. Etc.

I'm not saying Faith is your typical closet case, I don't doubt for a second she would have acted on her feelings for Buffy in season 3 – had the situation been different – but that doesn't mean she at this point identifies as bi.

Now I'm not saying I know she's bi, again I don't believe you can be a sexual preference, but I do believe she is at times sexually attracted to girls, and it definitely wouldn't surprise me if she has had sexual experiences with girls – and that she has had real feelings for girls, even though she might not have understood it at the time.

doppelgänger

09-09-2007, 03:12 AM

As for the kiss on the forehead, I remember reading an article where Douglas Petrie was quoted, from an interview I think, to say that the kiss on the forehead was changed from a kiss on the mouth. Now, that's all I was refering to. I am not saying that any suit has veto power over Joss, I'm just saying that Joss might be all mighty to us but I doubt he was in the eyes of the suits. Of course, he eventually gained lots of "power" in the sense that the show was popular with loads of viewers and that of course gives someone more space in the process of creating a storyline. And yes, you're right, the change to UPN did affect a whole lot.

In a May 2000 post on The Bronze, Buffy creator Joss Whedon responded to criticism over this issue, writing "Are we forced to cut things between Willow and Tara? Well, there are things the network will not allow us to show. As for example kissing." In an interview in this month's Girlfriends Magazine, Amber Benson provides her perspective on the issue: "Alyson and I thought at times that we needed to be doing more kissing. Part of that was the WB wanting to take it slowly, but when we got to UPN they let us do whatever, and things began to change."
(LINK (http://www.afterellen.com/TV/buffy-sex.html))

Ya know, when Faith was on season 3, they hadn't switched to UPN yet. Hence, my trying to make a point, despite my mixing up the networks (I don't know how that happened honestly), that introducing an out-and-proud gay/bi/whatevertheheck Faith just wasn't happening in season 3.

And as for Faith being introduced as bi/gay later; I'm not saying that Joss inteded to introduce Faith as anything. He had Xander or Willow in mind for the gay character, and that was it. I'm just saying that there was something happening in season 3, a homo-erotic vibe between Faith and Buffy that might lead us to think that any one them could be attracted to women. Unfortunately they had to keep that at a very subtle subtext.

nerd4hire

09-09-2007, 04:06 AM

This argument makes no sense what so ever. Like I said before, just 'cause she's willing to have sex with random guys (probably not ever guy she meets though, we don't know anything about that), and not with any random girl, does not mean she isn't ever attracted to girls.

Actually no. You know what makes no sense? You're saying BKV put that frame in front of Joss and a conversation something like this one took place.

Joss: Wait an minute now. If you have Faith say she won't go "downtown on this chick", people may misconstrue that into meaning she's not bisexual. The gay girls will get mad at me if they have to take down all their slash.

Brian: It's OK there's subtext there that she would do her if she was the right girl, she's just doesn't do random girls.

Joss: But she can still do random guys though, right?

Brian: Uh yeah, I guess so.

Joss: And you promise me there's subtext there somewhere?

Brian: Sure.

Joss: I don't see it.

Brian: It's there.

Joss: Oh all right.

Now that doesn't make sense. The comic frame says what it says, and it's canon. At this time Faith does not do girls. It's not the way she sees herself.

As far as the the quote, unquote subtext in Season 3 goes, there is no subtext. There's nothing like "Hey, I should go downtown on...er...I mean with you." It's like what somebody said earlier. It's chemistry between the two actresses. Now Eliza and Sarah may be latently gay, I don't know, but there's nothing in the text, sub or other, to tell us Buffy and Faith are.

doppelgänger

09-09-2007, 04:37 AM

Aw, come on N4H! You're just in heterosexual denyal! How the heck can you NOT see the subtext between Faith and Buffy? Not just the obvious chemistry between ED and SMG, but the chemistry between the two lady slayers. Some of the writers are obviously aware of the lesbian subtext that follows Faith wherever she goes. Faith's later destiny was not to be a ravin' dyke, I cannot see how that would fit into the season 7 storyline or the season 8 storyline. But denying the obvious subtext in season 3? Holy-dooly...

nerd4hire

09-09-2007, 04:49 AM

I'm in denial, or you're in fantasy land. Let's see who the facts support.

There's stuff you can see as subtext if you choose, but most subtext points to a reality. There is no reality, so there's probably no subtext.

Faith is wild and flirty. It's seductive. Buffy, for a bit, is seduced by it. She gets wild and flirty. The subtext is Buffy is being seduced to the dark side. Hetero girls getting wild and flirty with each other is not subtext. It's what they do.

Buffy jokes about going out with Faith. Is that subtext, or a joke? Xander says "Gay me up Willow". Subtext or a joke?

I'll show you what subtext insinuating bisexuality looks like.

Willow: (appalled) It's horrible! That's me as a vampire? (Angel closes
the door) I'm so evil and... skanky. (aside to Buffy, worried) And I
think I'm kinda gay.

Buffy: (reassuringly) Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality
has nothing to do with the person it was.

Angel: (without thinking) Well, actually... (gets a look from Buffy)
That's a good point.

doppelgänger

09-09-2007, 05:17 AM

Honestly now? Can't really see "your facts" supporting anything else than a wish to get all hetero-normative on our sorry Fuffy-loving butts. What I see here is two people inerpreting things differently. I respect and accept your point of view, I just don not agree with it. I was just being funny about the denial part btw.

You choose not to acknowledge the "seduction to the darkside" as anything else than that; I however choose the point of view that there is much more under the surface. Because I do believe Petrie when he says that "they" loved to play around with the lesbian subtext.

I don't think it's a valid point to compare Xander and Willow with Faith in this case. Faith would never make a bubbly joke, she is not a bubbly character, she's straight forward and blunt. There are lots of examples of dialogue between Faith and Buffy where Faith, in her own special way, says things that are clearly interpreted (and even inteded so by the writers in some cases) as subtext by some. Now, you can interpret that as only a joke and bring me "facts" about how "subtext insinuating bisexuality looks like", but I can't see that as facts more than just your way of seeing things.

nerd4hire

09-09-2007, 05:43 AM

There's no need to get personal. It's not straights versus the gays. It's what does the text say.

I think if you type Faith quote into Google, you're going to discover she does joke - a lot.

Scott? There you are, honey! Hey, good news. The doctor says that the itching and the swelling and the burning should clear up, (puts her hands on his chest) but we gotta keep using the ointment.

I don't know the Petrie quote so I'm unaware of the context, but if he said "playing around with the sub-text" that suggests they weren't serious.

And yes you can choose to see lesbian subtext. It doesn't mean it's there. It means the opportunity to see it is there, but there in the sense that it suggests a reality, no, that's not there.

Edmund Blackadder

09-09-2007, 06:54 AM

See, the problem I have with your argument N4H is that you are putting words into the characters/writers/creators mouth.
You interesting exchange between Brian and Joss is simply your own minds play of something.
Just because Faith stated that she wouldn't go down on 'this' chick, means what. That she will not have 'relations' with her. Thats not by any means someone shooting down Faith is interested in women argument.
Its a supporting argument but not the key to winning it.
If you choose to believe that Faith is 100% straight, so be it. Have a good life with that, but don't tell people its undeniable fact when it isn't(yet).
The 'fact' that two differing people, including the creator, have commented n the sexual tension and lesbian subtext between Buffy and Faith does give some credence to the the arguement that Faith might enjoy some lady lovin, however what strikes me as interesting again is that this was mutual chemistry and no one is suggesting Buffy is bi.

Because I do believe Petrie when he says that "they" loved to play around with the lesbian subtext.
Again N4H, I see why you have immediately jumped on the word 'play' in this line, but it doesn't mean they were being jovial.
People throught-out the world use the phrase 'play around' to mean different things, one of which includes taking something and approaching it from different stances and see how it works out.
I've often 'played around' with some ideasat work and seen which works best.

Way I see this argument is:-

There are two sides to is, neither has been proven wrong yet but both can't be right.
I watch the show with my opinion firmly stored in my mind until the time something 'definitive' tells me otherwise.
Until that time, its so much not an issue that I'm going to grab myself a cold beer, eat my sunday lunch and just for the heck of it, i'm going to watch 'Faith, Hope and Trick'.

Ohhh and Doppelgangbang (hehe), I don't know what is wrong with me. I'm not usually the one to try and debate properly and hold it together, I usually start calling names and stuff, so world peace wouldn't work(plus remember the price).

I think I must be ill or something or in a really good mood either way I want to revert to my old self, so here goes.
Doppel, your theory is inaccurate and based on a faulty idea and you are a smelly belly!!!
;)

doppelgänger

09-09-2007, 11:52 AM

N4H, I'm not taking this personal at all, quite the opposite. And you're right, it's not a case of "straights versus the gays". I am just having a hard time seeing how your points of view and personal oppinions are "facts" in this context. There's a huge difference between theories and ideologies, as in this case there's a huge difference between facts and theories. I agree with Bored of the Dead about you "putting words into the characters/writers/creators mouth".

The 'fact' that two differing people, including the creator, have commented n the sexual tension and lesbian subtext between Buffy and Faith does give some credence to the the arguement that Faith might enjoy some lady lovin, however what strikes me as interesting again is that this was mutual chemistry and no one is suggesting Buffy is bi.

You know, that is interesting indeed! Perhaps someone should open a discussion called "Is Buffy bi...?". Cause that's something that should be discussed more.

Ohhh and Doppelgangbang (hehe), I don't know what is wrong with me. I'm not usually the one to try and debate properly and hold it together, I usually start calling names and stuff, so world peace wouldn't work(plus remember the price).

I think I must be ill or something or in a really good mood either way I want to revert to my old self, so here goes.
Doppel, your theory is inaccurate and based on a faulty idea and you are a smelly belly!!!
;)

LMAO! Nice try Bored me to Death, but I ain't crying yet. The smelly belly part you could very well be right about not about my theory!

Mortal

09-09-2007, 12:17 PM

This argument makes no sense what so ever. Like I said before, just 'cause she's willing to have sex with random guys (probably not ever guy she meets though, we don't know anything about that), and not with any random girl, does not mean she isn't ever attracted to girls.

We know Faith's attitude towards sex is rather casual to say the least. There's every reason to believe that she would use sex to carry out a mission if called to do so, at the very least she would consider it. Therefore her rejection of the use of sex because the target is a female is significant. Giles said she has to use "subterfuge and cunning" to get close to the target and she immediately indicates that she's not the Chosen One to go down on girls. Obviously she's not even sure what Giles meant, but just wanted him to know that she's not into women lest there was any confusion on that point. That's pretty cut and dry stuff.

Now could she later turn bi or gay? Of course, anything could happen but right now the evidence suggests she not into women.

And by the way, I don't care whether she is bi or not (actually bi-ness in women is a turn on for me). I'd love to see her and Buffy or some other hot girl make out.