Disappointed

[Edmund Blackadder]

I just watched WarZone and Blind Date again, and i remembered how i thought this was gonna be such a great character for the show(and don't get me wrong, he was pretty cool at times) lest we forget
Gunn: Whoo, Whoo! My God! They told me it was true, but I didn't believe em. Damn, here it is. Evil white folks really do have a mecca. Now, now, now girls, don't get all riled up. (Screams) Did you just step on my foot? Was that my foot you just stepped on? Are you assulting me up in this haven of justice?! Somebody get me a lawyer, because my civil rights have seriously been violated. Oh, I get it, y'all can cater to the demon... cater to the dead man... but what about the black man!?

This showed me a character that i think would have added a different scope to the entire series, create something that i could enjoy.....but instead from season two what did the writers decide to do, take away everything unique and turn him into a 2D character that could not have been more white if he had bleached his skin...i was appalled actually. Yes it worked in season 5, but there was no reason to do it before that.....made worse by giving him and Fred a relationship...i mean how does that work. The only reason i felt it had any justification was to keep Wesley away from her, but even then someone else would have been a better choice, i mean they just suck together....ok, rant over.....your opinion:)


ohh and i think i deserve some kudos for not naming this thread my first choice...DisGUNNtled

[nerd4hire]

There was an old thread here at one time where they linked to an essay demanding Joss Whedon be held responsible, and reproached for racial stereotyping in the way Gunn was originally presented.

Is this a case of damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Actually I'd look for that essay, but it was kind of badly researched, and silly. Nevertheless someone thought enough of the idea to post it.

[VisionGuy]

I agree with you DDLM. I thought that Gunn was gonna be like that cool ghetto thug type that they showed in season 1 and the first half of season 2. But then they made his character kinda generic. He had so much potential, attitude, and personality that he was actually one of my favorites when he first came on because I could kinda relate to him. In my high school, we all used similar slang to early Gunn, dressed ghetto like early Gunn, and so on. But then they just made him kinda corny. I know people grow but his change felt rushed. Like one episode he was one way and then the next he was a whole different person. I don't know maybe I'm talking nonsense.

[arabella]

I agree that Gunn got worse in the later seasons, and much prefer his earlier dialogues. That is who he was. The later seasons he felt fake. I did like his relationship with Fred though. I thought it was interesting because it seemed so strange. I think it was a nice, not so obvious relationship. I mean I am very much a fan of fred and wesley because they are just perfect together, but i appreciated the contrast provided from her relationship with Gunn. it was different.

[Allycat]

I never really liked Gunn either, but I think that the ghetto-thing they had going on initially was quite stereotypical.

[nerd4hire]

Just for you then Ally, I'll dig up that old "Gunn is a racial sterotype" thread.

Here you go -

http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=18588

Someone agrees with you.

*

[What happened to good TV?]

perhaps the early Gunn was his character conforming to the norm of his group of vampire hunters. He didnt seem that hesitant to leave them for Angel investigations. Perhaps the 'real' Gunn was the sensitive, 'generic' character that was shown in later seasons. And he could be himself around them. maybe his character was more boring. I didn't like his character that much either.

[VisionGuy]

I never really liked Gunn either, but I think that the ghetto-thing they had going on initially was quite stereotypical.

I don't think it was stereotypical at all. Gunn was a black guy who was raised in the streets of a big city and had his own gang of vampire hunters. How else would he act but ghetto? It's not like Joss did the same for every black person he put on his shows. Look at Principal Wood.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I have to second VisionGuy here.
Had we been introduced to Gunn in some other sense, such as Suburbian wannabe, then we have a valid point, but fact is we have a man, brought up on the street by people his own age, fending for themselves, fighting against Vampires.
This was truly evident in season 1, yet even in the beginning of season 2, you can begin to feel the writers have lost faith in the character, they are trying to make him more palatable in conjunction with the group as was, when infact i believe the Gunn of season 1 would have been alot better as part of AI, even adding more to the transformation in season 5 from Muscle to Lawyer......no, i honestly believe Gunn was given bad writing.

[Wicked]

I wasnt disappointed at all. The way I saw it, in the first few episodes, yeah he was the tough streetwise kid. But he was in charge of his group. They were his family and he was protecting them, so he had to be like that. When he joined with Angel Investigations, he got to relax. The pressure to be in charge and not mess up in case he got someone killed, was off his shouldaers. Angel (then Wes) was in charge. He just had to follow orders. He could relax. Be less tough and be nicer to people. Find love (I loved him and Fred)

As for personality, I dont think he lost it at all. He was still his own person. Still the "steryotypical black guy" sometimes.

I just think his character grew. He was never steryotypical to me. And I never found him generic.

I also loved in season 5 when he was singing (I cant remember what) then Wes walked in and he changed it to a rap song. Maybe the streetwise tough guy was all an act?

[littlewilly]

Yup, spot on BOTD, Gunn, like all the others, got less interesting and likable as the series went on.

[Dlou444]

Are we to the point where we miss Al so much we're bringing back ancient threads? Why not just bombard him with PMs to come back and rile us all up all new and shiny?

[LadyLavinia]

I wasnt disappointed at all. The way I saw it, in the first few episodes, yeah he was the tough streetwise kid. But he was in charge of his group. They were his family and he was protecting them, so he had to be like that. When he joined with Angel Investigations, he got to relax. The pressure to be in charge and not mess up in case he got someone killed, was off his shouldaers. Angel (then Wes) was in charge. He just had to follow orders. He could relax. Be less tough and be nicer to people. Find love (I loved him and Fred)


I feel that joining Angel's group was the beginning of his character's destruction. In the end, he was better off without Angel Investigations.


I mean I am very much a fan of fred and wesley because they are just perfect together.

I have to disagree. From a superficial point of view Wes and Fred seemed perfect for each. But for me, there was no real balance in their relationship. Wes had a tendency to put Fred on a pedestal. Fred seemed unable to make up her mind whether she wanted to be put on a pedestal or taken seriously. And quite frankly, they were two introverts whom I found to be rather boring as a couple.

[Airam]

Hmmm, I'm pretty dissapointed this thread was started at all actually. It seems like what you're trying to say is that after a while Gunn just didn't act "black" enough for you.... and who's to say what "black" is? A stereotype? He was just a person. Yeah the person he was initially was shaped by how and where he grew up but is he not supposed to ever change, evolve? It as nothing to do with a black/white thing IMO. I think his surroundings and circumstances changed but i don't think his core ever did, I didn't find he was ever not true to himself. And as for his relationship with Fred, I loved it. A relationship with Fred and Wesely was never built before she got together with Gunn. Sure Wesely migt have harbored feelings for her but we never really saw any substantial reciprocation on her part before she got together with Gunn, IMO Wesely missed his chance to swoop in and really have his feelings known so Gunn did, If anything it was Angel that she was "in love with" before Gunn. Gunn and Fred were the perfect example of so called opposites attracting and they built a relationship that actually lasted a long time. Wesely and her relationship might've at the end seemed more intense but I don't think it took anything away from what she and Gunn had.

[LadyLavinia]

From BuffyWiki:

Gunn was born in the Badlands, a section of inner-city Los Angeles where the police would not go, and looked after his sister, Alonna, from a very young age.


Speaking as someone who lives in Los Angeles, I have never heard of an inner city neighborhood called "the Badlands". I have heard of a large apartment complex just below Baldwin Hills called "the Jungle". But never the Badlands.

[SpoonsAreCool]

Are the Badlands not in The Lion King aswell?

[Edmund Blackadder]

Hmmm, I'm pretty dissapointed this thread was started at all actually. It seems like what you're trying to say is that after a while Gunn just didn't act "black" enough for you.... and who's to say what "black" is? A stereotype? He was just a person. Yeah the person he was initially was shaped by how and where he grew up but is he not supposed to ever change, evolve? It as nothing to do with a black/white thing IMO.

But thats the thing, he didn't 'evolve' he just turned, pretty much over night.

Gunn had the potential to be one of the greatest characters on the show, bring a different edge to the show that was lacking, particularly in LA.

He was the leader of an LA Gang, he was black and he had a rich history of street life to draw on, yet none of this was properly explored in the show. The gang, when seen again, weren't even all that entertaining.

The writers copped out, they could have given us a credible black character that that didn't have to be a cliche, but instead they opted to play it safe.

Hell, even his out fits in season 1 were better than his season 2 and beyond stuff.



Sure Wesely migt have harbored feelings for her but we never really saw any substantial reciprocation on her part before she got together with Gunn, IMO Wesely missed his chance to swoop in and really have his feelings known so Gunn did, If anything it was Angel that she was "in love with" before Gunn. Gunn and Fred were the perfect example of so called opposites attracting and they built a relationship that actually lasted a long time. Wesely and her relationship might've at the end seemed more intense but I don't think it took anything away from what she and Gunn had.

I hate the Fred and Gunn romance, but it has nothing to do with Wesley.

It felt forced, and really only a means to keep Wesley and Fred apart from the writers perspective because it would probably have seemed to obvious to get her and Wesley together.

The writers probably thought they were being quite clever, especially as there was that little set up of Fred and Cordy chatting and Cordy and Wesley.

Also it was FAR from a long term relationship.
It started in season 3 and ended in season 4.

Edit:

From BuffyWiki:




Speaking as someone who lives in Los Angeles, I have never heard of an inner city neighborhood called "the Badlands". I have heard of a large apartment complex just below Baldwin Hills called "the Jungle". But never the Badlands.

I have many issues with the Gunn storyline, but I gotta say this isn't one of them.

Granted I have never heard it referred to as 'Badlands' in the show, but I fail to see why you pick up on not knowing of a place in LA actually called that. Last time I checked, there wasn't a place in California called Sunnydale that had a beach, forests and/or a desert.

[scobro]

The writers copped out, they could have given us a credible black character that that didn't have to be a cliche, but instead they opted to play it safe.
I would rather have the safe "white" Gunn (as you called him) than the little after-school special stereotypical 'black man'

I agree that it could have been a better character but they are few and far between.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I would rather have the safe "white" Gunn (as you called him) than the little after-school special stereotypical 'black man'

I agree that it could have been a better character but they are few and far between.

Buffy and Angel (more Buffy) is known for its pushing the boundries and taking on preconceived notions, and making them plausible characters WHILE still retaining them (like for example Lesbians (AND witches) love cats!!!!) and I really think that they could have used Gunns character to explore this.

There was no exploration.

[scobro]

Buffy and Angel (more Buffy) is known for its pushing the boundries and taking on preconceived notions, and making them plausible characters WHILE still retaining them (like for example Lesbians (AND witches) love cats!!!!) and I really think that they could have used Gunns character to explore this.

There was no exploration.
I concur.. i have a theory as to why but I dont want to sound all gooly-woogly

[Edmund Blackadder]

I concur.. i have a theory as to why but I dont want to sound all gooly-woogly

I would like to hear it.

If you don't wish to post here please feel free to PM me.

See if I have had the same/similar thoughts