Too Harsh to Wesley??

[Mulder22]

Just wondering what everyone's opinion is on what the gang did to Wes after he betrayed them. Do you think they should have forgave him right away (doubtful), or did they do the right thing under the circumstances.


I personally thought that they should have at least allowed Wes a chance to explain. Maybe not right away, but it would have been nice to see Cordy confront Wes on what happened. She obviously wasn't there when it did, but I think she should have at least gone and seen him, being as though they had a longer history than anyone else.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Personally, i understand Angels reaction, i can forgive him for his actions even after finding out why Wesley did it.

Wesley, again, i can forgive him because he thought he was doing the right thing. It was a little out of character for him to not confront Angel. I mean he should have been aware that Angel was in an OK state so should have said something, but still.

Cordy, she should have gone to see Wesley. I don't care what anyone says, she should have let him explain. Yes her first priority was and should have been Angel in his hour of need, but Wesley, who only a year before was one of the only people she could rely on, should have been allowed the chance to explain why he did what he did.

Gunn and Fred, i get their problems with Wes were more personal, but these had no justifiable reason to not givesome consolation to Wesley. He was there for them, when others weren't he.

[Xin Rong]

Cordy did the right thing she was loyal to Angel, Wes did wrong, Angel didn't, both needed a friend and she made the right choice. Why should she jepodise her and angels relationship for a guy who was responsible for losing a baby.

Although I don't condemn Wes for what he did, I think he did the right thing with the knowledge he had, but I think cordy and angel did too

[watcher1006]

To me this story was very depressing, so much so that I haven't watched the episodes of this arc more than once. So these are my impressions from seeing it that one time.

Holtz was Angel's sworn enemy and as such we wanted him to fail in his quest for vengeance. But I couldn't forget what Darla and Angel(us) did to him, destroying his family.

I think Angel's anger and his inability to forgive Wesley in the hospital was perfectly human (even though Angel's a vampire).

Cordelia might have done more to try and get Wesley's side of the story, but there's only so much one could ask-she had no idea of why he did what he did and at the moment when Angel needed her she couldn't be proactive toward finding out more about Wesley's motives.

Fred did come by to drop off Wesley's things. I think that she would have listened fairly to whatever Wesley might have said to her, had he been able to speak at that point.

My first impression of Wesley's actions were that he could have shared his apprehensions with some of the people around him, if not with Angel himself perhaps with Cordelia, rather than acting unilaterally. He had the credibility as the team's chief researcher to make the others listen.

But, as I said, I only watched this story arc once.

[Wicked]

Personally, i understand Angels reaction, i can forgive him for his actions even after finding out why Wesley did it.

Wesley, again, i can forgive him because he thought he was doing the right thing. It was a little out of character for him to not confront Angel. I mean he should have been aware that Angel was in an OK state so should have said something, but still.

This I agree with completely

Cordy, she should have gone to see Wesley. I don't care what anyone says, she should have let him explain. Yes her first priority was and should have been Angel in his hour of need, but Wesley, who only a year before was one of the only people she could rely on, should have been allowed the chance to explain why he did what he did.

This, not so much. Its not that I dont agree with you. Its more that I understand why she didnt go and see him. She was angry. Yeah, she wasnt there when Wes did what he did, but she has the right to be angry at his actions. What he did was wrong (although I understand why he did it) and she was angry. People dont always act rationally, or fairly when theyre that angry. (does this make sense? it does in my head. i think)

Gunn and Fred, i get their problems with Wes were more personal, but these had no justifiable reason to not givesome consolation to Wesley. He was there for them, when others weren't he.

As for this part. Ok, I do agree that maybe Gunn could have gone and seen him. After all it wasnt long ago that they were best friends when Angel abandoned them. (wait, was this before or after the wes/fred kiss thing? cos that may change my opinion) But Fred, well she wasnt around at that time. She was always loyal to Angel after he saved her from Pylea. Also, she probably felt like Wes shoukld have come and spoken to her about it. Not acted like he did. Maybe she was hurt that he couldnt tell her.

Ive rambled now and this is making less and less sense. Damn people trying to talk to me while Im trying to type this. Grr

[Edmund Blackadder]

This, not so much. Its not that I dont agree with you. Its more that I understand why she didnt go and see him. She was angry. Yeah, she wasnt there when Wes did what he did, but she has the right to be angry at his actions. What he did was wrong (although I understand why he did it) and she was angry. People dont always act rationally, or fairly when theyre that angry. (does this make sense? it does in my head. i think)


She didn't even respect him enough to go and 'bawl' at him.
This is thye man who had risked his life numerous times to help and protect her, yet she didn't even spend 5 minutes looking to confront him. Thats my issue, not that she didn't forgive him, or even give him a chance to explian himself, she just ignored him for the entire time.
After everything that had happened before and including the Holtz situation, Wesley deserved some kind of 'hearing' from Cordelia...she doesn't even need to try to make Angel see sense, i understand her standing by her man, she just should have had one scene telling Wesley off for not coming to her.

As for this part. Ok, I do agree that maybe Gunn could have gone and seen him. After all it wasnt long ago that they were best friends when Angel abandoned them. (wait, was this before or after the wes/fred kiss thing? cos that may change my opinion) But Fred, well she wasnt around at that time. She was always loyal to Angel after he saved her from Pylea. Also, she probably felt like Wes shoukld have come and spoken to her about it. Not acted like he did. Maybe she was hurt that he couldnt tell her.


See, Gunn, through a jealous slant can be given some benefit of doubt, but i do not agree with what you said about the Angel/Fred thing. Yes Angel saved her, and for a time she became dependant on the 'Handsome Man' but after, say Fredless, she starts to become one of the team, seeing and respecting each individual for what they are and losing this dependancy on Angel alone. She is her own person, so loyalty aside, she should know that Wesley needed her.
Granted Fred went to see Wesley, even explained that she was let down, but she was aware of all the information, she, not necessarily convince the rest, but should have stayed in communication with Wesley, given him some help and support just after he had his throat slit while he was trying to protect them, specifically Angel and Connor.

[Wicked]

Fair enough. I get what you mean. But I guess we're not gonna agree on this.

I totally understand why Fred didnt stay in communication with Wes. She was angry and hurt. Maybe it wasnt the best decision she's ever made but people cant be right all the time :p

[Angel's vision]

well personnally i agree with Al on this, and Cordy let the team down in other ways too like ascending up to be a higher being which i have issues with as she was ment to carry the visions for Angel and the mission.
She should of done more to understand the situation and Wes although i hate what he did and that he never told Angel deserved some hearing out his side of the story.:freak: the whole lets condecend on Wes drove me farhbot!
Plus Weses attitude wasn't good either he should of appologised to Angel even though it may have sounded lame he should of shown remorse for what he did! in the hospital for examplre Wes should of said sorry i made a mistake.
I felt sorry for both parties really having said that.

[Mulder22]

well personnally i agree with Al on this, and Cordy let the team down in other ways too like ascending up to be a higher being which i have issues with as she was ment to carry the visions for Angel and the mission.
She should of done more to understand the situation and Wes although i hate what he did and that he never told Angel deserved some hearing out his side of the story.:freak: the whole lets condecend on Wes drove me farhbot!
Plus Weses attitude wasn't good either he should of appologised to Angel even though it may have sounded lame he should of shown remorse for what he did! in the hospital for examplre Wes should of said sorry i made a mistake.
I felt sorry for both parties really having said that.


Well he really couldn't talk in the hospital so he couldn't there. I agree that he probably should have however, since Angel tried to kill him he probably didn't want to go see him again. Plus, how can any apology make what he did any better. I think he was just so down on what happened and what he did he couldn't even look Angel in the eyes for a while.

[goldenboy]

I'm sure this is old hat for some around here, but...a question: Was the Loa that Wesley consulted lying to Wesley, or just clueless, or referring to something else when it appeared to confirm that "the father will kill the son?

Was it in league with Sahjan or somehow duped by Sahjan's tweaked prophecy? Was the Loa in fact Sahjan in disguise? It was established that he could alter his appearence. Or was the Loa referring to Angel possibly killing Connor at the end of season 4?

[Mulder22]

yeah it was probably referring to Angel "killing/saving" Connor at the end of season 4. Tim Minear has said that that was the propehcy coming true.

[goldenboy]

OK, I'll have to go back and figure out the most probable earthquake/fire/blood occurrences in season 4...unless you guys know...

[Angel's vision]

Mulder i do agree with you on what you say about Wes but Wes never appologised after the event in the hospital, he had plenty of time to do it.
If Wes didn't want to see Angel after nearly killing him ok but wes should know that the reasons behind it were understandable he should of known Angel would wanna get him after that! I would expect my mate to kill me if i had done what Wes did! An appology wouldn't make it right but it would show the regret, and remorse that Wes was keeping to himself.

[Mulder22]

Mulder i do agree with you on what you say about Wes but Wes never appologised after the event in the hospital, he had plenty of time to do it.
If Wes didn't want to see Angel after nearly killing him ok but wes should know that the reasons behind it were understandable he should of known Angel would wanna get him after that! I would expect my mate to kill me if i had done what Wes did! An appology wouldn't make it right but it would show the regret, and remorse that Wes was keeping to himself.


yeah I know what you mean, good point. I just think that after that happened Wes just kinda gave up for a while there. He never really apologized for anything after that. Remember in Angel's fantasy in season 4 Wes apologizes, and Angel says that he never heard him apologize for anything before. I think that shows that although he and Wes were cool again, Angel still wanted an apology.

[Angels baby101]

Hmm i can see Wesley's point for doing what he did i mean he did it to protect everyone... But I can also see why Angel reacted the way he did and the rest of them for that matter. Wesley didn't let Anyone in on it... and I mean thats Angel's son of course angel is going to react that way, and Cordy well Cordy was at that point in time like a mother to him she had a connection to him and to angel so i can see why she'd side with Angel as well.

[Kimm]

I think that Wesley had a responsibility to Angel and everyone else. He should have been honest and just talked to them about it. History had proven that they'd never been unable to get through something when they all put their heads together so I don't know why he felt he couldn't talk to them about it this time.

I do believe that he genuinely thought he was doing the right thing by taking Connor but I still agree with the way Angel reacted (I probably would have been the same way). I also think in Fred, Gunn, Lorne or Cordy's position I would have felt betrayed and deceived so I don't blame them for how they acted either.

[VisionGuy]

I agree with Al on the whole Cordy thing. Just the season before, Wesley was the person she trusted the most because of Angel going all dark. Even before Cordelia left with Groo, she and Wesley had a close friendship. She was trying to set him up with Fred and everything. I think that Cordelia should have at least gone to see Wesley and confront him for what he did. I found that out of character for her. Even her going over to his house to yell at him for doing the wrong thing, would have been more Cordy like.

As for if Angel was too hard on him, I don't think he was. Wesley took his only son, the only son he'll ever have and basically lost him. I would have acted the same way as Angel.

[Wicked]

I was watching The Price today and some of it seemed relevant to this thread

Fred: "Yeah, but things have cooled down a little since - I'm just saying, maybe it's time - Look, he doesn't have to forgive Wesley."

Gunn: "I'm glad you think so, 'cause - not happening."

Fred: "No. Right. He-he shouldn't. But isn't there some way to - I don't know, come back from this?"

Gunn: "Not unless Wes comes back with that baby under his arm. And even then, Angel 'd probably kill him on principle."

Fred: "You don't really think that."

Gunn: "He took that man's son. Probably best we never mention the guy's name again."

Gunn walks off and Fred turns back to watching Angel.

So clearly Fred was ready to talk to him again but through loyalty to the others, she didnt.

Cordy: "No. You want me to say something to Angel about Wesley. Sorry. Can't. Won't."

Fred: "Why? Why can't won't you? You've known them both longer than anybody. Angel would listen to you."

Cordy straightens up from gathering up the cleaning supplies.

Cordy: "Probably. But he doesn't wanna hear it - which is why I'm not gonna burden him."

Fred: "Look. Whatever he did, he's Wesley. You care about him. I know. Can you imagine how much pain he's in? How horrible he must be feeling?"

Cordy, not noticing that Groo is coming back with the empty bucket: "Angel's feelings are the only ones I care about. *He's* my priority. I got dosed with demon dna for that man. I'm semi-demon and I still don't know what that means."


Cordy is clearly making it known that her loyalty is to Angel. No matter what. Angel doesnt wanna see Wes, so neither does Cordy.

Fred continues to try to convince the others to go see Wes throughout the next couple episodes. So its not like she didnt wanna give him a chance. Its that she didnt wanna go against the others.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Fred, although trying to get the others to go, doesnt herself, until she needs something.
The mans throat had been slit while he was trying to protect them all.
Yes Wesley had the situation completely wrong and out of character, but Fred still should have gone to see him. Heck, maybe Wesley had some bit of information that they could have used......but no, they abandoned him completely. Fred owed Wesley her life, she shouild have seen all the support Angel had, and given some, if only a small amount, to Wes. Would Angel really miss her for a couple of hours a week?

As for Cordy, again, she is completely in the wrong.
She has loyalty to Angel, she should, but she should also have some for Wesley, i mean she allowed Wes to take charge of AI when Angel left, she followed him into battle, she even loved him(in the friendship way) because of the aount of times he had a) cared for her when she was not well, b) the ferocity he defended her when she needed it and c)he took her to a Movie Premiere with Chow Yun Fat!!!!!!(ok, thats a jokey one to an extent)
Cordelia was in a tough position as these two guys were the closet people in her life bar none, these two, more then her parents, Gunn, Fred and anyone else were her family, and she didn't even give Wes a hearing, it didnt have to be fair.
I wanted her to go see him, shout at him, slap him, and she really ought to have, but no.

The only person whose actions are 100% justifed are Angel's.

[Queen of Cups]

While his intentions were pure, the way he handled it was extremely selfish. So he couldn't have Fred & resented Gunn. He should have swallowed his pride & went to them anyway. His actions were very extreme & so were the consequences. It's natural to take sometime to forgive or to even attempt hearing his explanation.

[drtroy]

I agree Wes wanted to do the right thing..but I could not understand for the life of me why he didn't tell someone! I really hate watching these episodes..I'm currently rewatching but it just drives me insane. I hated the whole holtz situation sure...angel deserved to be punished but he is NOT the same person..I get ...your angry..your hurt about your feeling...but there is a thingcalled honor..and its like do you think your wife would be happy you kill angel even though he was not the same person?Its just wrong..so anyways sorry back to the subject.

Cordy really upset me..I understand you have major feelings for angel...and he has done so much for you..but at the same time this is the man who betrayed you and fired you...I know she was hurt by him lieing to her, but let'snot forget cordy lied about how painful her visions and had the tons of pills..which could have easily killed her..irresponsible.

Every person has done something pretty screwed up during the show, maybe not on the same level of wes or angel..but hell...I was suprised he wasn't more forgiving..and as for Gunn..I did like his character, but he pisses me off.
He has to be one of the biggest idiots( I do like him) but his whole arrogant personality, and holier than thou is just crap. I get it Wes betrayed you..
but didn't they OWE him forgiveness atleast.

I know he is wrong for what he did in a way, but he did have the best intentions..

[valerii]

and as for Gunn..I did like his character, but he pisses me off.
He has to be one of the biggest idiots( I do like him) but his whole arrogant personality, and holier than thou is just crap.In That Old Gang of Mine, Wesley got ass-y with Gunn over Gunn's conflicted loyalties, even threatening to fire him if he messed up again. If anyone had the "holier than thou" attiude, it was Wes, and, IMO, that's part of why Gunn's so unforgiving. Wes preached absolute loyalty, but didn't practice it. I'd be pissed with him, too.

[Luciferian]

I understand why angel was pissed. if he did loose connor he would never have another son again. But they all knew most of the story and knew Wes would never give connor to holtz intentionally. so i do think angel was a little too hard on hmi

[asukafan]

I don't blame Angel for being angry. I'd probably be pissed too. plus it was so soon after it happened, and he should had time to cool down and think about why wesly would have done it before going to see him.

[JCC]

"Hello, my name is Angel. I'm a vampire with a soul who can do almost anything I want, but I can never ever have a child."

"OMGZ, I'VE HAD A CHILD I'LL LOVE IT FOREVER"

"... Someone stole my child that I could never ever have and always wanted and then got it lost to my mortal enemy who has kidnapped it and sent to a hell dimension where he's been brought up to despise me."

Yup, I'd be pretty pissed too.

[apocalypse]

Wesley acted rashly, but it's not like he handed Connor over to Holtz. He was going to take Connor, and then had his throat slit and the baby stolen. He probably should have told the others about the prophecy, but, if Angel wanted to kill Connor it's not like anyone would be able to stop him without killing him, which wouldn't have done any good. Angel's anger, as well as everyone else's, is perfectly understandable, but Wesley should have been able to give his side of the story.

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

actually, come to think of it, wesley, being the former watcher that he was, probably truly believed the prophecy without a doubt, especially after triple checking it so much, so if he had told angel, who's to say the gang would have been able to do anything? maybe angel would have been "destined" to kill connor, so despite some miracle, keeping connor around would be like leaving him to die. getting him far away from angel would be saving him. i mean, maybe once angel learned about the prophecy, he would have made sure he stayed at a distance from him, like keeping him in the hotel, but with cordy. however, that doesnt sound like angel; it seems more that he might be more careful, but not want to be away from his young son. he might think he could stop the prophecy now that he knew about it. neither he nor wesley knew the whole story of what the prophecy would have entailed, had it not been fake. wesley really did believe he was doing the right thing, and quite possibly, felt going to angel could have just caused more problems, which is also a pretty justified belief. does all that make any sense?

[TabulaRasa]

For the rest of the gang I think they should have been mad, but maybe not totally shut him out. I do believe Angel had every right to want and even try to kill Wes. If that was my son, he would never have come back from that. Just a parents perspective, or a womans even. I don't think that is forgivable. Angel was soulful, Wes could have gone to him.

[marukisu]

I never understood why he just never went to Angel instead of keeping to himself.

[Mulder22]

I truly believe that if Cordy was around at the time of all this that Wes would have told her. They were very close. As far as not telling Gunn and Fred, well think about it. He was obviously feeling very hurt by them being together. It probably killed him just to be in the same room as them too. I'm not condonig his actions, I just understand them. This is a just a tragic story arc where there was no winner. Everybody lost!!!!

[wiccianslayer]

i think angel was way wrong when he was trying to smother wesley i was like WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?? SOMEONE HELP WES!!!! angel was way out of line for doing that after wesley had his throat cut wasn't that punishment enough grrrrrrr i hated angel in that scene.

[white avenger]

I have said more than once that this whole story is a perfect illustration of just what a hypocrite Angel is. Time and again, he has made decisions for others without consulting them or asking their permission, and it's always "for their own good." He did it to Buffy, and he did it to every member of his own gang, and it's perfectly alright, because he knows something that they don't, something that makes his actions not only excusable, but the only action possible. Wesley does the exact same thing to him by trying to save Connor from the fulfillment of a prophecy he truly believed was inevitable, and damn near died in the process. What is our hero's reaction? Did he say, "You did it for my own good, Wes, and for Connor's. I don't truly understand that right now, but I DO understand that your intentions were pure," ? No, he tried to kill Wesley, and had to be forcibly dragged out of the hospital room to prevent it. Wesley's actions were not one iota different from all of the decisions Angel made over the years, except that this time, he was on the receiving end instead of the other way around. Long story short: Angel can dish it out, but he can't take it.

[ILLYRIAN]

SARCASTICALLY.
They were an investigation 'team', when one of them found some information, it was shared.

Yet another case of, I know, I think, therefore its ok if I do.
Connor was taken into another dimension because of what Wesley had done. Sahjhan, Holtz and whats her name knew he would do the wrong thing, they planned on it happening, what does that say for him ?
Why was he taken back at all ? Because he was their friend.
Cordy once said something along the lines of, 'if there wasn't a website saying they are here', they'd suck at being an investigations team. Seems she was right.

[Kana]

I think Wesley was arrogant to think that he could 'save the day' and he's been one of the main supporters of the adage "we're stronger together" yet his emotional state meant that he didn't open up the happy couple (Gunn and Fred). Because of Angel's increasing weird behaviour he thought that if he had have told Angel he wouldn't have rationally discussed it with him and just said as he said to Gunn and Fred "It's a lie" (which was before they knew it was lie) so he thought that if Connor should be estranged from Angel that if Angel (or anyone else) had known they would have prevented it from happening therefore fulfilling the prophecy. Lorne I think may have been the best person to talk to and that would have given him a full picture as well as a stablizing influence.

This said I think Wes' actions are forgiveable if a little misguided. Although Lorne was wrong in saying Wesley did everything he could, he had the best intentions in what he was doing so it's hardly surprising that Wes felt bitter about getting nothing but an attempted murder and abandonment for his efforts without anyone hearing his side.

[palabravampiress]

I have said more than once that this whole story is a perfect illustration of just what a hypocrite Angel is. Time and again, he has made decisions for others without consulting them or asking their permission, and it's always "for their own good." He did it to Buffy, and he did it to every member of his own gang, and it's perfectly alright, because he knows something that they don't, something that makes his actions not only excusable, but the only action possible. Wesley does the exact same thing to him by trying to save Connor from the fulfillment of a prophecy he truly believed was inevitable, and damn near died in the process. What is our hero's reaction? Did he say, "You did it for my own good, Wes, and for Connor's. I don't truly understand that right now, but I DO understand that your intentions were pure," ? No, he tried to kill Wesley, and had to be forcibly dragged out of the hospital room to prevent it. Wesley's actions were not one iota different from all of the decisions Angel made over the years, except that this time, he was on the receiving end instead of the other way around. Long story short: Angel can dish it out, but he can't take it.

Ditto. This is pretty much exactly what I would have written.

My sympathies are with Wes. Dude nearly died trying to do the right thing. No one in the gang ever honored that sacrifice, so I figure I'd better at least be on his side. Holtz took Connor, not Wes. Wes tried to save Connor.

[Keanoite]

I have said more than once that this whole story is a perfect illustration of just what a hypocrite Angel is. Time and again, he has made decisions for others without consulting them or asking their permission, and it's always "for their own good." He did it to Buffy, and he did it to every member of his own gang, and it's perfectly alright, because he knows something that they don't, something that makes his actions not only excusable, but the only action possible. Wesley does the exact same thing to him by trying to save Connor from the fulfillment of a prophecy he truly believed was inevitable, and damn near died in the process. What is our hero's reaction? Did he say, "You did it for my own good, Wes, and for Connor's. I don't truly understand that right now, but I DO understand that your intentions were pure," ? No, he tried to kill Wesley, and had to be forcibly dragged out of the hospital room to prevent it. Wesley's actions were not one iota different from all of the decisions Angel made over the years, except that this time, he was on the receiving end instead of the other way around. Long story short: Angel can dish it out, but he can't take it.


There is absolutely no doubting that Angel takes over situations and makes choices for people, but he always does it truly beliveing it is for best. I also believe that Wesley was working on that basis, he thought it was the right thing to do BUT my problem with the whole thing is why Wesley EVER trusted Holtz? He made a deal with the devil. Wesley was an extremely intelligent man, why would he trust something as precious as Angel's son with the one person in the world that hated Angel the most!! It was unbelieveably stupid an naive and he really should have known better. Angel was right to feel so betrayed, WESLEY LOST HIS SON!! regardless of his intentions that simple fact cannot be ignored.

[palabravampiress]

There is absolutely no doubting that Angel takes over situations and makes choices for people, but he always does it truly beliveing it is for best. I also believe that Wesley was working on that basis, he thought it was the right thing to do BUT my problem with the whole thing is why Wesley EVER trusted Holtz? He made a deal with the devil. Wesley was an extremely intelligent man, why would he trust something as precious as Angel's son with the one person in the world that hated Angel the most!! It was unbelieveably stupid an naive and he really should have known better. Angel was right to feel so betrayed, WESLEY LOST HIS SON!! regardless of his intentions that simple fact cannot be ignored.

I wasn't exactly clear on what the deal was. I thought it was that Wes would have the chance to get Connor out of there. In return, he'd somehow set it up so that Holtz and co. could launch a surprise attack. I'm betting that Wesley figured Angel and the rest of the crew would win. I don't think he trusted Holtz. I think he just saw an opportunity to save Connor and took it.

[Keanoite]

I wasn't exactly clear on what the deal was. I thought it was that Wes would have the chance to get Connor out of there. In return, he'd somehow set it up so that Holtz and co. could launch a surprise attack. I'm betting that Wesley figured Angel and the rest of the crew would win. I don't think he trusted Holtz. I think he just saw an opportunity to save Connor and took it.

I will have to rewatch it again but regardless of what he thought was going on he knew he couldn't trust Holtz at all! It was careless and deeply stupid. whether his heart was in the right place or not his stupidity cost Angel and Connor a happy life together, to be honest I'm surprised Angel forgave him at all.

[Kana]

I will have to rewatch it again but regardless of what he thought was going on he knew he couldn't trust Holtz at all! It was careless and deeply stupid. whether his heart was in the right place or not his stupidity cost Angel and Connor a happy life together, to be honest I'm surprised Angel forgave him at all.

Well Angel almost did the same thing which was one of the theme's of Forgiving and The Price. Wesley tried to save Connor but perhaps didn't go about the right way of doing it. Angel tried to save Connor and almost got everyone killed in the process. And it's not as if Angel didn't know there might be consequences of doing the spell. I think it was the time under the ocean that gave Angel perspective. Angel didn't forgive Wes because of part of him didn't forgive himself.

[Keanoite]

Well Angel almost did the same thing which was one of the theme's of Forgiving and The Price. Wesley tried to save Connor but perhaps didn't go about the right way of doing it. Angel tried to save Connor and almost got everyone killed in the process. And it's not as if Angel didn't know there might be consequences of doing the spell. I think it was the time under the ocean that gave Angel perspective. Angel didn't forgive Wes because of part of him didn't forgive himself.

Good point, and Angel is a much bigger person than most people, I know I wouldn't be able to forgive the person who kidnapped my child, but he can. I still struggle to understand Wesleys logic, it seems so out of character.

[palabravampiress]

Good point, and Angel is a much bigger person than most people, I know I wouldn't be able to forgive the person who kidnapped my child, but he can. I still struggle to understand Wesleys logic, it seems so out of character.

That was pretty magnanimous of him. I'm glad they worked it out.

Still, I think attempted murder of a man who can't defend himself or even scream is always a bit on the "too hard on someone" side of the scale. I mean, Gosh, if you wanna kill someone for hurting your child, at least wait until the fight is a little closer to fair. There is a code of honor for these sorts of things!

[Keanoite]

That was pretty magnanimous of him. I'm glad they worked it out.

Still, I think attempted murder of a man who can't defend himself or even scream is always a bit on the "too hard on someone" side of the scale. I mean, Gosh, if you wanna kill someone for hurting your child, at least wait until the fight is a little closer to fair. There is a code of honor for these sorts of things!

Ok but put your self in his shoes. Your child is the most precious thing in the world to you, your greatest job is to protect them. Angel has just watched his child be sucked into a hell dimension, which he knows from experience how horrid they are, honour was the last thing on his mind.

[palabravampiress]

Ok but put your self in his shoes. Your child is the most precious thing in the world to you, your greatest job is to protect them. Angel has just watched his child be sucked into a hell dimension, which he knows from experience how horrid they are, honour was the last thing on his mind.

True. That makes it understandable, not right. Just like I think what Wes did was understandable, not right.

I think they were both wrong, which is why I think they were eventually able to recover. If Connor hadn't been more or less okay and if Wes hadn't suffered for what he did, then I don't think they could have been friends again.

[benboy606]

I understood Angel's reaction to Wes, but I think they, eventually, should've forgiven him. They only forgave him when they all forgot what he had done. But, Angel's actions at the end of "Forgiving" are, yes, shocking but also understood, because, he caused the chain reaction. He was fooled, but someone who just lost someone that they could never, ever have under any other circumstance will not just understand and be calm. They need to take action. They need revenge, and that's what Angel really wanted.

[Bangelxx]

I think that Angel was right to be mad at wes for stealing connor but I don't really think he had to go THAT far you know? Wesley does things for the greater good so I can understand why he did it!

[Joyce Summers]

A parent's love tends to be stronger than anything else in the world though. Wesley, no matter whether his intentions were good or not, caused Angel's son to be lost in the most horrendous Hell dimension in existence never to return (Or,you know, as far as they knew) and that's not something he could ever forgive. Welsey had essentially killed his son and for that Angel wanted to kill him. Maybe it wasn't right but vengeance is what it is, and that's what Angel wanted. All he could see at that moment was his baby and the fact he would never see him again.
But like I said, Wesley did have good intentions. But then again The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Cordelia Chase*]

True...as far as they knew, but if Wesley sat on the sidelines and didnt attempt to try, he would of felt guilty if Angel would have actually tried to feed off of his soon. It was soon to come with W & H affecting Angels drinkning blood with Connors.

[Bangelxx]

Yeah-Slayer comma the, I agree! A parents love is stronger then anything else and Angel is right to feel angry but also i agree with Cordelia chase* because if wesley had done nothing he would have felt bad all the same!

[Tomp]

Nah it was a well-handelled polt line.

[Angel's vision]

Huh?^

Wesley expected Angel to Understand and hear his reasons, which was very unrealistic. If your son was taken by a cretin, was lost forever (at the time)

It is not unreasonable for Angel to of lashed out! So what did Wes expect? A bouchet of flowers? Big fat clue that Angel was worried about his behaviour was when he handed Conner to him so he didn't harm Conner, so why take him??? Angel was making an effort to avoid it. By trusting Wes witht he most precious thing he had, his son and it was thrown back in his face, so NO it wasn't too harsh.

[Cordelia Chase*]

But If Wes would of said, " Angel gimme your son so i can give him to holtz so you wont feed on him" then uh no!! DOnt see that happening.i understand both sides but I do think they acted alittle too hard on him. Escpecially when they kept coming back later on asking Wesley for help in S4, but claimed they wanted nothing to do with him.

[Angel's vision]

Wes was all "My friends abandoned me" a.nd wallowed in his new found depression, he certainly didn't understand or attempt to the thing he did from Angel's piont, that was what pi*** me off about Wes. He should of excepted that they weren't gonna go running back to him with open arms anytime soon.

[Cordelia Chase*]

NO..he knew that. He just wanted alittle understanding from them. Everyone did abandon him. but as i said before, i understand both point of views

[Kana]

Wes actually said that. He never got the chance to explain his side of what happened, but then they asked for his help. Interestingly Wes did the right thing by helping Fred and Angel respectively, but that's as far as he was willing to go at that point.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Yea....and when he did return it wa kind of forced on everyone. Including him.

[Angel's vision]

Circumstances dictated thye be together,and Wes was needed and being that there was a beasty on the loose it looked like they parked asside personal feelings and got on with it.

[Edmund Blackadder]

And then, thanks to Jasmines love, they all put aside their ill feelings and realised the bonds of friendship run deeper when things are done with the best intentions.

Its been a while since I saw Angel 3, but wasn't the plan for Wes to keep Connor and Justine stole him and sliced his neck.

I think that Wes was merely taking Connor away from Angel for his protection and it went wrong.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Idk.....its been awhile since I've seen season three as well but i think HOltz was still involved with it somehow. Cant remember, but she did snatch Connor up and then everything went downhill.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Idk.....its been awhile since I've seen season three as well but i think HOltz was still involved with it somehow. Cant remember, but she did snatch Connor up and then everything went downhill.

I'm sure Wesley made the deal that he could leave safely with Connor, Holtz had no argument with the child nor with Wesley and I believe Wesley had no doubt that Angel could hold his own against Holtz - though backing up the possibility that Angel may be turning into Angelus at the same time.

[Jaded Wolf]

That arc in the season really frustrated me because I just thought Wesley was being his pompous self all over again. I didn't expect Angel to try and smother him though. That was shocking as all get out! However, I am glad it happened because we then got to see a more kick butt Wesley emerge. He became like this dark secret agent with magic and some moves. Wes became one of my favorites then.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Yes! I love everything that happened because it created a more darker Wes. One that I love more than the old school boy , kiss up watcher Wes.

[FaithyFivebyFive]

Hmm... Now how interesting would it be if dorky Wes met dark and troubled Wes? Kinda like how Angelus had a showdown with Angel that one time...

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

that sounds like it would make an interesting ep. troubled wes would probably scare dorky wes :p. oh, the possibilities...

[FaithyFivebyFive]

Yep, I also think dorky Wes would be scared by troubled Wes. Or, rather impressed by him! Lol.

[Kana]

I actually agree with the somewhat impressed part as he Dorky Wes tried to portray that image at first: The tough rougish demon hunter. To me it seems like a classic case of 'be careful what you wish for'.

[thegifting]

I don't think Angel's reaction was too rash for the situation.
Wesley, in all his aquired knowledge and wisdom should have not only been intelligent enough to talk to someone, anyone about what he thought the prophecy said, his plans, but he forgot one very simple thing- Angel's crosses are Angel's to bear. Angel doesn't like sharing his feelings, even, so what would possibly lead Wesley to believe that Angel want's someone to fix one of his problems?
Don't get me wrong- I more than understand Wesley's intentions and thoughts on the matter, and can understand and even agree with some of his motivations, but it pissed me off something fierce that he would put himself in that situation with Holtz, with Justine, with himself and his 'family'.
Also, Angel held himself back to some degree, although not on purpose, perhaps. Two human, male candy stripers shouldn't have been able to restrain and get him away- perhaps Angel was overcome with human tactics for his human Judas who took his human son, but I think it was him wanting Wesley to get a message, and not a slight case of death.

I think that everyone totally abandoning Wesley, though, was too harsh.
While I wouldn't go so far as to call Fred morally flawed in any way, I found it very hard to believe that Charles acted the way he did. Charles was given a second chance at life when we was brought into the fold of Angel Investigations, and it's like he became too holy to help out and give a chance to someone that never had a reason to give him one, but did.

[tearsong]

Ok so just having watching these, my mind is blazing fresh with grrrr-ness on Wesley.
A) No communication with the group, period.... through out the story arc, once he is in charge you can start to see the power start to go to his head.... and to a certain extent since his is the "boss" it seemed like he didn't feel "obliated" to bring his concerns to " the lesser beings" that might tell ANgel.
b) Someone said that not talking to Wes was out of character for Cordy.... I TOTALLY disagree.... she jst pulled the same thing when Angel fired everone....
which brings me to point
C) Wes boo-hoo's that he didn't have a chance to explain to his friends why he STOLE someone's child, and yet a firing that ANgel did ellicited the same responses.... and yet he's surprised now that he's on the receiving end of it... and the kid thing is wayyyyy bigger then firing someone....
D) Wes had already screwed up plenty of prophecies before,so WHY wouldn't he see if Lorne or someone else might be able to get a better picture??

[Kana]

Ok so just having watching these, my mind is blazing fresh with grrrr-ness on Wesley.
A) No communication with the group, period.... through out the story arc, once he is in charge you can start to see the power start to go to his head.... and to a certain extent since his is the "boss" it seemed like he didn't feel "obliated" to bring his concerns to " the lesser beings" that might tell ANgel.

Not sure exactly what you mean here. Do you mean the power went to his head in Season 2 when he was in charge of the group? Can you give examples of this?

b) Someone said that not talking to Wes was out of character for Cordy.... I TOTALLY disagree.... she jst pulled the same thing when Angel fired everone....

However, Angel estranged himself from the group whereas Wes was estranged and Cordy didn't talk to Wes even though she didn't know the full story. It definitely shows her loyalty to Angel (and possibly her true feelings).

which brings me to point
C) Wes boo-hoo's that he didn't have a chance to explain to his friends why he STOLE someone's child, and yet a firing that ANgel did ellicited the same responses.... and yet he's surprised now that he's on the receiving end of it... and the kid thing is wayyyyy bigger then firing someone....

But Angel didn't explain why he fired everybody at first but when he came back they (presumbably) would have listened to his explanation. Wes actually did listen to his explanation in the Pylea arc but to Angel's credit he did want to at least be friends after his stint in the ocean. It's also worth noting that despite his anger towards the group he actually rescues Angel and despite taking the Lorne bait, he does try to warn AI about W&H supposed plan for Cordy with the best of intentions. While he didn't ask to be part of the group again at these points, he didn't ask for anything in return either.


D) Wes had already screwed up plenty of prophecies before,so WHY wouldn't he see if Lorne or someone else might be able to get a better picture??

That's actually a good point. I made a similar point earlier here:

Lorne I think may have been the best person to talk to and that would have given him a full picture as well as a stablizing influence.

[tearsong]

Not sure exactly what you mean here. Do you mean the power went to his head in Season 2 when he was in charge of the group? Can you give examples of this?


How about the two times he threatened Gunn and some one else that if they did "X" against his wishes he'd fire them.

However, Angel estranged himself from the group whereas Wes was estranged and Cordy didn't talk to Wes even though she didn't know the full story. It definitely shows her loyalty to Angel (and possibly her true feelings).


What I don't get is how can he (Westley) thinks someone can come back from something like that... it's a huge betrayal.... he may have thought "Sure Angel will be pissed" but why wouldn't he think everyone else would be as well??? Everyone doted on Connor and with his lack of communication it opened himself up to the shunning he so rightly deserved.... he not only didn't trust Angel, but all these other folks that he should have....


But Angel didn't explain why he fired everybody at first but when he came back they (presumbably) would have listened to his explanation. Wes actually did listen to his explanation in the Pylea arc but to Angel's credit he did want to at least be friends after his stint in the ocean. It's also worth noting that despite his anger towards the group he actually rescues Angel and despite taking the Lorne bait, he does try to warn AI about W&H supposed plan for Cordy with the best of intentions. While he didn't ask to be part of the group again at these points, he didn't ask for anything in return either.

True, he isn't a complete prat but to me at least there's this scale... connor on one side and a few bits of help on the other... doesn't really balance out, ya know?