Do you think that Angel had every right to react the way he did?

[Ali]

I am talking about when he is so mad at Wesley for taking Connor and allowing him to get taken to another dimension that he tries to smother him with a pillow...:buble_eye

[Angel's vision]

C'mon who wouldn't! I mean ok Angel was wrong but it was understandable after Angel gave Conner to him fully aware Angel was worried about what he was capable of, how do you justify that lack of trust..? It was in front of Wes what action Angel was taking to avoid hurting Conner, and i mean the prophesy well Wes shoulda confronted Angel about it with the others or wait till Cordy got back, not go behind his back, so i understand his fury.

[LadyLavinia]

Perhaps Angel was wrong, but to be honest, I totally sympathized with him.

[Lyri]

maybe he did act wrong...but i'm with him all the way!! i mean, i've no experience with this, so i ask all the moms and dads to have their say, but i'm pretty sure that every parent in Angel's shows would have done exactly the same thing! he lost his son and he was betrayed by one of his best friends, someone he thought of as family.
i never understood why Wes just didn't go to the others with what he found and they could have worked together to save Connor...but then again, that wouldn't have made good television, and we would have never been introduced to the truly wonderful Vinnie! lol

[VisionGuy]

Hell yeah, Angel reacted the right way. Wesley took away the only son he will ever have and let him get taken by the enemy. Angel had every right to react the way he did. The others though, shouldn't have shunned Wesley like that.

[Ladybug]

Well yeah... I mean what would you've done?

[white avenger]

I think that there is a real irony in that episode. Angel was infuriated at Wesley for making a decision "for Angel's own good" (well, actually for Angel's and Connor's) without giving him any say in the matter. Isn't that exactly what Angel himself did time and again in both BUFFY and ANGEL? Apparently, he didn't like being manipulated any more than anyone else did. And did he learn his lesson? No. He did the same exact thing again when he took over W&H, all on the pretext of manipulating everyone's memories "for Connor's best good."

[Angel's vision]

White Avenger for curiositys sake give examples of this making desisions for the gang..?
Angel took over the firm and the reason he wipped his friends memories is because he didn't want them hurt so his enemies get to him, and Conner getting his mind altered, well what would you rather have a Conner who's psyco or a well adjusted boy..?
and i'll still say Wes was wrong.

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

yeah, what angel's vision said. i dont agree with his decision either, but when white avenger is saying that angel did the same thing to others as wesley did to him time and time again, i think the difference was (in at least some cases, i need more examples) that at least some of angel's decisions worked out for the best, while welsey's ended up getting angel's son taken away to be raised by holtz in a hell dimension.

[white avenger]

White Avenger for curiositys sake give examples of this making desisions for the gang..?
Angel took over the firm and the reason he wipped his friends memories is because he didn't want them hurt so his enemies get to him, and Conner getting his mind altered, well what would you rather have a Conner who's psyco or a well adjusted boy..?
and i'll still say Wes was wrong.

I'm merely saying that the "wiping or altering someone's memory for their supposed own good" is a plot device greatly overused by Whedon and his writers to avoid cleaning up whatever current mess they find themselves in. Angel did it more than anyone else, but he wasn't the only one. I just thought it sort of fitting that Angel be on the recieving end for once.

[Angel's vision]

Angel did it more than anyone else, but he wasn't the only one. I just thought it sort of fitting that Angel be on the recieving end for once.

Angel did what more than anyone else..? get everyones memories altered or make desisions for the group..?

Angel did what he did (had reality altered) after Wes took the desision to take Conner.

But thanks for post! i get what your point was, except the above which i am seeking a clarification.

Maybe start a topic on why Angel "Manipulates things /makes decisions without consulting people"..? it deserves it's own thread!

[SlayersDestiny]

Making decisions which affect others, without consulting them, is a common thing for Angel.

Leaving Buffy, moving into the hotel, joining wolfram and hart..there are many others.


Omg I dont believe I am doing this... But I actually agree with you! :scared20: The world is coming to an end!!!!

[SlayersDestiny]

And the world ended a long time ago, you are just an echo.


Thank you, I will just keep echoing along!!

[The Watcher]

I think what he did was wrong. Wesley was doing what was best for Connor, so Angel should be thanking him. But also, I can see why he was mad.

[Angel's vision]

Angel should not be thanking him, to take someones kid away and not trust em or help them with the situation, like wes did is not on.Honesty was needed on both sides.
Angel gave Conner to Wes to stop himself from harming him, because he was worried about hurting Conner.Angel was wrong to try and strangle Wes true but i can't blame him.

[Cordelia Chase*]

WHat do you expect! He's a father! If someone took your child away wouldn't you try to kill them? So I guess I can understand Angels actions. But also, I can understand Wesleys actions as well. If Wesley would have told Angel the truth, Angel wouldn't have let Connor go and the prophecy probably would of had a good chance of being fulfilled.

[drtroy]

Yes...and no. Wes meant well, but I could not understand why he didn't tell the gang, and minus angel..Angel did have a right to be upset..but let's not forget angel hasn't exactly been honest, and he has done things that he had thought was right at the time, that ended up exploding in his face..Like trying to lose his soul with darla, leaving the gang, etc..and they forgave him, especially wes seemed to be the first one to forgive him, and be right at his side..I just feel that angel does not have a problem manipulating other people (meeting with buffy, erasing the gang's memory)..I honestly feel that he did not erase it for their good at all..but for connor's..which if you are a parent there is nothing wrong with that..but if you are like angel, and a champion those feelings cannot get in the way..sorry off track..I wasn't that upset over angel not talking to wes..but more at cordy and gunn..I was completely suprised she didn't side with wes slightly..or understand his position..it was like everyone mindlessly agreed..because he was the boss..that did not make any sense to me at all.

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

leaving the gang, etc..and they forgave him, especially wes seemed to be the first one to forgive him, and be right at his side

wasnt wes one of the hardest ones on him when he was coming back to the group?

WESLEY: This won't be easy for any of us, Angel. You're going to have to change your behavior, engage your co-workers from time to time. Be sensitive to their feelings, their opinions, especially before you take some action one might construe as, oh, let's just call it insane. It goes a long way to show you appreciate and respect them. (Pauses) This is torture for you, isn't it?
ANGEL: Yes.
WESLEY: Good. I think that's all for now.

ANGEL: Yeah, uh, to say, you know, 'thanks.' Um, 'Sorry about the migraines.' Um, you know, 'I appreciate you?'
Wesley: Yes, by all means. And uh, while you're at it pick me up one of those 'sorry you were shot in the gut' bouquets.
ANGEL: Right. Sorry.
WESLEY: You can't buy back her trust, Angel, or her affections.

it was like everyone mindlessly agreed..because he was the boss..that did not make any sense to me at all.

fred kind of tried to stand up for him at first, when she found out why he did what he did, if thats in anyway relevant to what you're saying.

[fivebyfiveanyanka]

If Wes had been up front with Angel at the beginning then perhaps season 3 wouldn't have been so dramatic at the end, but I don't blame Angel or Wesley for their actions, both actions seemed natural for their characters...

[Whistler]

if someone had stolen my kid they would never have had the chance to apologize. wes is lucky angel didn't just snap his neck

[Randy Giles]

IMO, if Wes thought the prophecy was true - and he had no reason not to - he had a right to try to save the baby. Only, he should have told someone else so Angel couldn't hold him personally responsible.

But then again it served the story's purpose and helped age Connor.

[alexa]

At the time I was pissed at Angel for doing that to Wesley... but I'm a big Wesley fan so. I can see why he'd want to kill him when his son is gone and he thinks dead... but Wesley thought he was doing the right thing. It pissed me off more that Cordelia did nothing, Wesley had his throat slit trying to *save* Connor, and she doesn't even visit him after everything, what a $$%^^@!

[Randy Giles]

At the time I was pissed at Angel for doing that to Wesley... but I'm a big Wesley fan so. I can see why he'd want to kill him when his son is gone and he thinks dead... but Wesley thought he was doing the right thing. It pissed me off more that Cordelia did nothing, Wesley had his throat slit trying to *save* Connor, and she doesn't even visit him after everything, what a $$%^^@!

I was more upset by Fred's reaction throughout the whole thing more than I was by Cordy's lack of reaction.

[DantePD]

It wasn't "okay", but speaking as a father...if it had been me in Angel's shoes, I would have done the same thing.

[Jone]

I'm kind of torn between this issue. I think that what Angel tried to do to Wes was horrible, but justified. I mean, Angel finally had some happiness in his life without turning evil and then it got taken away from him, by his friend! However, Wesley was just trying to protect baby Conner. However, Wesley should have told the gang what he was going to do. I don't know why he thought it was best to keep what he was planning on doing with Angel's son a secret.

[TabulaRasa]

Yes I do. Angel and not gone bad. Wes should have gone to him. Angel would never hurt Connor and he would have set in motion plans to protect him. Include the group. I think Wes did very wrong. I would have killed him if it were my son. That's just something you do not mess with. A parents child. Angel will never have another son, and not saying you can replace a child or anything, but that was it for him. That was his mark on the world and Wes took it away. Well for a while anyways.

[FaithyFivebyFive]

Wes should've at least considered that maybe it was a set-up, especially considering how many enemies Angel had, and how many people were after Conner. I don't know if the way Angel reacted was 'appropriate', but I can understand where he was coming from.

[Xin Rong]

Not speaking from personal experience but seems to me like any parent would have done the same thing, wes should consider himself lucky that darla had died

[palabravampiress]

I can sympathize with Angel, here. I think Wes was wrong. I think he had good intentions, but that Wes had no right to try to make decisions for "their own good" without consulting Angel (on his own behalf and on Connor's behalf).

That said, I don't think Angel was in any position to attempt to murder anyone over doing that making decisions for one's own good thing, even if it did involve Connor. Add to that the fact that Wes was in the hospital, possibly dying anyway, and unable to fight back or even to scream... and that's the point at which my sympathies shift.

If Angel wanted to call Wes out for what he did, then fine. I think Wes would have accepted that, too. But he should have allowed Wes to explain his reasoning, at least. And he shouldn't have attacked him until he was able to defend himself. Also, maybe he should have reflected on his own propensity to make that making-decisions-for-other-people mistake.

[Keanoite]

I get what your saying but at the end of the day he had just watched his son be taken to a hell dimension by the one person in the world who hated him the most. Rational thought was pretty much a distant memory at that stage. When Angel did get the chance to think about it (his summer under the sea...anybody else start singing the song in their head?...No :blush: focus sinéad..) he forgave wes and apologised. He was grieving, i mean look at how Buffy reacted when Faith shot Angel with the arrow? she tried to kill her, or the mayor trying to smother Buffy in the hospital afterwards...with Angel its the same thing...they attacked those they held responsible for their loved ones being hurt. They were all people used to being in control an having the power and suddenly they were helpless when it mattered the most. Frankly, I would expect Angel to react that way. I know if one of my friends kidnapped my child, my first thought wouldn't be to wait until a more suitable time to broach the topic.

[palabravampiress]

I get what you're saying, too. I think Angel's reaction was completely normal and healthy. Most people go a little berserk when their kid is kidnapped and/or killed. I'm not a parent, but as I understand it, that protect-the-young instinct is strong.

But the question posed by the thread is did Angel have every right to act as he did. "Right" is not always the same as "natural." In fact, doing what's right very often requires one to curb natural impulses. Like I said, I can sympathize with what Angel did. I just don't think it was right.

I feel similarly about what Wes did. Ultimately, I'm glad that they were able to work things out.

[Keanoite]

I still think he had the right to do what he did.

[benboy606]

I feel similarly about what Wes did. Ultimately, I'm glad that they were able to work things out.

But they weren't able to work things out. Look at the rest of Season 3. Look at Season 4. He's an outcast to everyone other to Fred. Angel never forgave him. The only time they were even REMOTELY chummy after that was in Season 5, when coincidently, Wes lost his memory of what he did.

[Keanoite]

But they weren't able to work things out. Look at the rest of Season 3. Look at Season 4. He's an outcast to everyone other to Fred. Angel never forgave him. The only time they were even REMOTELY chummy after that was in Season 5, when coincidently, Wes lost his memory of what he did.

It wasn't coincidently...he was supposed to lose his memory...but really how do you get past that..sure you can forgive but no matter what angel does they couldn't forget

[benboy606]

I know he was supposed to lose his memory. My point is that the only time they even talk AT ALL is when he doesn't remember what he did. Meaning, he never forgave himself, and Angel never forgave Wes.

[Cordelia Chase*]

all true but think about this...Angel always make decisions for them without consulting them...

[InsaneMystic]

I don't think Angel was right. Like, at all.

While it was immensely stupid of Wesley to collaborate with Holtz instead of confiding with the other guys, I'm absolutely backing his decision of taking Connor away without consulting Angel about it. With the data at hand, that's the best decision to make. It's doing the right thing for the right reason - just with very bad judgment on whom to ask for help in executing it, and this choice of help leading to disaster. And it's not like Wesley didn't pay enough of a price for his mistake; the man got his throat slit, for goodness sake!

Honestly, the first time I saw Angel trying to smother Wes with the pillow, I couldn't help but side with Holtz in the opinion of "soul or not, who cares - that guy is a monster" (especially with Angel making it clear that he's NOT Angelus at that time). I wouldn't have minded anyone staking one more vampire then and there. I have more of an issue with anyone trusting Angel ever again after this ep, not Wes. Wes earned mistrust for lack of cueing anyone else in the team in on his plan, I grant that immediately, but the way everyone treated him was considerably too harsh (Fred possibly excepted, she did seem to be avoiding him mostly because of group pressure), while everyone was way, WAY too light on Angel - who IMO justly deserved a timeout in the wet corner over that summer to think about behaving.

I grant that maybe my opinion is influenced by the fact that I am not and will never be a parent... but honestly, if being a parent would make me see Angel's behavior there as acceptable, that would be one humongous reason for me thanking God I'll never be one. Heck, I'd go so far to back him up on "I never want to see or speak to that man again"... but "I'm going to kill you now, and btw: I'm the good guy"? No, fangster, you are most definitely not.

I also fully agree with WA and PV about Angel being a master of dishing out lone decisions over other people's heads, but a sucker when it comes to be at the receiving end of it.

[Superstar]

And it's not like Wesley didn't pay enough of a price for his mistake; the man got his throat slit, for goodness sake!
Price you pay for trafficking with demons... err not demons.
Bad judgment all the way around.
Double-cross within double-cross within double-cross within double-cross.

Here's an interesting question to ponder: if Angel loved his son so very much, shouldn't he have turned evil when he was born?
Not even one moment of complete happiness? There's a harsh reality for the kid to recognize later on.
I find it hard to believe that Darla's sacrifice would dampen the event so completely.

I'm pretty sure his curse wasn't about just getting his rocks off with a cheerleader as the condition.

[angelchick182]

Angel's son was taken from him by someone whom he held in high regard and trust - I think his actions were justified. I also understand Wes's point of view - his actions were that of a man who felt he had no other option. If Wes had confronted Angel about the prophecy, I doubt Angel would've believed it anyway, but I still think that Wes should've confided in someone withing the group.

[Dlou444]

While I think Angel was a BIT harsh in the trying to kill Wesley without hearing his side of the story or putting himself in his shoes.
I gotta say, Wesley could have given Connor to ANYONE other than Holtz. How about Giles? Or send him to the council? Perhaps a random firehouse would work nicely.

I'm just saying, I rewatched the episode and I see no real reason why he had to give Connor to Holtz instead of ANYONE else.

[angelchick182]

While I think Angel was a BIT harsh in the trying to kill Wesley without hearing his side of the story or putting himself in his shoes.
I gotta say, Wesley could have given Connor to ANYONE other than Holtz. How about Giles? Or send him to the council? Perhaps a random firehouse would work nicely.

I'm just saying, I rewatched the episode and I see no real reason why he had to give Connor to Holtz instead of ANYONE else.

It's been a while since I re-watched this ep, but I don't remember Wesley's plan being to give Connor to Holtz. I remember Lorne saying that when he read him, he was taking the baby away - for good. Wes had the baby, and was taking a suitcase to his Jeep when Justine came out the bushes, slit his throat, and took the baby. So, I know Wes didn't readily hand the baby over to Holtz.

I can't exactly remember the specifics in the following episodes, but was it ever revealed that it was Wes's true intention to hand Connor over to Holtz?

[Dlou444]

Well, he goes to meet with Holtz twice and they discuss Wesley giving the baby to him and he does appear to be attempting to MEET someone at the park, not just passing through in the middle of the night. The gist of the conversation leaves one assuming that he knew he was going to meet one of them there for some reason, it's just that Justine plays all hurt and upset about Holtz being just what Wesley had said.

It seems inferred that they were at least one of the major options he was considering, because Holtz keeps saying he wants the kid to live.

[angelchick182]

I'm gonna have to re-watch this episode, cause it will drive me nuts. As for the park - he mentions to Lorne that there is a park across the street from his house where lots of kids play, and his Jeep was parked across the street from his place, parallel to the park. I could've sworn he was just loading his Jeep when he heard Justine come up, and not actually heading into the park.

As for the the two meetings with Holtz, I browsed through transcripts of those scenes, and Holtz does mention "wanting the baby to live", "the baby not being safe with a demon", and so on, but I didn't see any discussion of Holtz taking the baby. Even though Wes met with him twice, I still never really saw them as great allies, and think that even though Holtz confirmed what Wes read in the prophecy - he still thought Holtz was a madman driven by vengance. I also think that Holtz knew ,deep down, he didn't have a chance of getting Connor away from Angel. From there, I believe he thought his only option was to manipulate Wes(playing on the fears he already had) into taking the baby - and I think that's where he thought he would see his opportunity.

Is it mentioned anywhere else?

[Werewolf]

Well, angel did over-react but it's understandable.
I just felt bad for wes, his character gets screwed up after that...

[AgentX7k]

I thought Wesley was right because I never saw another way.I don't think going to anyone would solve anything. Wesley is the chief mystics expert, if he says a prophecy is real then than it is. If any of the gang had a wider knowledge in any aspect than yes he should have gone to them for help because they could have offered something to the situation other than what Wesley has already done - 'Not believed it and try everything to disprove it'.

Talking to the gang about this would be like a CEO asking the Janitor advice on a big merger coming up. Wesley had a great deal of emotional investment but he also had his knowledge and understanding of how prophecies work, so he eventually came to the hard conclusion of what had to be done, the others only have their emotional ties and couldn't get past the 'No, that can't happen' response and even if they could look how much time it took Wesley to convince himself, he'd have to go through equal (if not more) time to convince anyone else and he didn't have it. Angel could kill Conner at any moment.

Though I am still sketchy on why he went to Holtz and the justification in that, I will have to watch it again. Though as I recall Wesley went to him to try and make peace. The prophecy was brought up by Holtz so it's not like Wesley went to him about Conner, it came up by accident. The only stupid thing I think Wesley did was trust Justine which almost got him killed.

[Primal Slayer]

Watching this storyline right now I think Angel mostly had every right basically to do what he did to Wes. Sure Wes thought he was doing the right thing but he should have confided in Angel and the rest of the team instead of just taking Conner.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I can forgive Angel for what happened in the situation its everyone else, including Wesley, that I feel are in the wrong.

Wesley should have confided in someone.
Fred should have given him more chance.
Gunn should have put aside his issue and sought a reasonable explanation from his friend.
Cordelia - well she pissed me off the most to be honest.

[Kana]

I can still understand why Wes didn't tell Angel though due to his behaviour at the time. If he were to tell him then it's uncertain how he'd react. Many say that he would have stepped aside and stayed away from Connor if he thought he was going to be a threat but given his irrational behaviour I can understand. The best person to go to, might have been Lorne seen as Gunn and Fred were not prophecy experts anyway.

[PurplePoof]

I think the scene where Angel tried to smother Wesley was one of the most shocking and powerful scenes of the entire series. At first I felt kind of bad for Wesley...thought that maybe Angel should have tried harder to appreciate that Wesley felt he was acting for the greater good. But when I think about what I'd probably do in the same situation...Angel acted in the way I think most would.