Was the Cranky Hamburger Lying?

[alexa]

Watching Season 3 lately and there's something I don't understand. If the prophecy wasn't true, because Sajhan (spelling?) just rewrote it then how come the Cranky Hamburger (the Loa) said that the Vampire would devour his son? I suppose he did drink Connors blood by default, but he didn't kill him, well not right after all the 'signs'.

: erm :

[freakydorky]

Yikes! You just made me realize I need to re-watch some eps, cuz you lost me at Cranky Hamburger.

[alexa]

LOL. It's the hamburger Wesley talks to in Loyalty or Sleep Tight? At the fast food place, pretty funny.

[freakydorky]

OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH! Yeah. I remember that, but i don't remember what it was said, or the basic storyline of the particular ep.

[nerd4hire]

My opinion is the Loa thing was a lie.

Wes: "Is it true? Will Angel really kill his son as it says in the prophecies?"

Loa: "That the vampire will devour his child is certain. The dark question *you* harbor is only 'when.'"

There's 2 elements there - killing, and devouring. The 2 never happened together, so Loa was either lying, or wrong.

It would appear to be lying is the correct choice there, because Loa appears to accept the fact there was a prophecy saying the "the father will kill the son.

There was no such prophecy. Sahjhan altered an existing prophecy saying Connor would kill him. He says so in Forgiving.

Sahjhan: "Oh, well, I don't like to brag, but - read any good prophecies lately?"

Gunn: "You wrote the prophecies."

Shajhan: "More a re-write."

Fred: "The father will kill the son."

Sahjhan: "Yeah. I flitted back and forth in time. Changed the one that threatened me, polished some others. Flitted in a *manly* way - just so we're clear. (To Angel) You're not really my enemy. Your in my home and I'm gonna kick your ass, but you where never the point."

Angel: "It was Connor."

Sahjhan: "Boy! Can't put one over on you, can you? Oh, wait - already did. It's pretty freaky the first time you see your name in a true prophecy all carved in blood on an official scroll. "The one sired by the vampire with a soul will grow to manhood and kill Sahjhan." Me!"

Fred: "So you planted false prophecies, that Angel would kill his son, and Wesley believed them."

So either Loa was mixed up, and confused the 2 prophecies, or Sahjhan set up the whole Loa thing.

And that's all pretty much what Kanga said in the beginning, but now it's all laid out pretty. :)

[zombie.apparatus]

wow.. i really need to watch season 3 again. i cant remember most of that ^. you also lost me at the hamburger

[alexa]

Stupid hamburger :p Ruined Wesley's life, oh well at least he developed that sexy ruggered look.

[freakydorky]

We had hamburgers at lunch today, and all I could think of was you Kanga :)

[alexa]

lol... hmm now I want a hamburger for lunch, hopefully the non-evil kind.

[Luciferian]

well there's also the altering your destiny thing. At the end of season 4 Angel had the chance to kill connor, and it looked like he did, but he didnt o.O

so he could have meant that connor would kill him, but angel got control in the end. But he also could have been misguided because of Sahjhan rewriting

[RockManic]

I don't know. I got the impression that the Loa was the sort of being to be able to see the turn of events and prophecy for itself, rather than just reading what was written on a scroll. I'd imagine that a false prophecy written by Sahjhan wouldn't be enough to cloud the truth from the Loa. It would see the true destiny, rather than the false one.

So that leaves you with the possibility that it was either lying to Wes (a possibility we have no proof or motivation for) or that it was telling the truth and that Angel really will kill Connor.

Wes: "Is it true? Will Angel really kill his son as it says in the prophecies?"

Loa: "That the vampire will devour his child is certain. The dark question *you* harbor is only 'when.'"

Loa: "The first portent will shake the earth. The second will burn the air. The last will turn the sky to blood."

The thing about signs and portents is that they aren't always clear. When you think about it, the above portents could also relate to the coming of the Beast in Apocalypse Nowish. Who is to say that a future event will not occur that again sets Angel and Connor against one another and that these portents will not present themselves again? It's more than possible.

[nerd4hire]

So that leaves you with the possibility that it was either lying to Wes (a possibility we have no proof or motivation for) or that it was telling the truth and that Angel really will kill Connor..

There's a third possibility. That wasn't the real Loa. That Loa may have been a fabrication of Sahjan's created to con Wesley into believing what he wanted him to. Maybe there wasn't even a real Loa. Sahjan had messed around with ancient texts before.

[RockManic]

Yeah, that's a possibility.

I'd have to assume that there was a real Loa. It would be pretty difficult for Sahjhan to fabricate the existence of a being such as that entirely, as over the years there would have been many others who called upon it and he wouldn't have been able to oversee it continually. However there is no reason why he couldn't have been aware of Wesley's plan long enough to find away to have a fake Loa appear to him, rather than the real deal. So, yeah, that theory works too.

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

that's an interesting theory, that it's not the real loa. is there some evidence that makes you guys think that, or is it just a plausible theory? i never even remembered how what the cranky hamburger (:)) said wasnt true till i saw this thread! :silly:

[RockManic]

It's purely a theory based on the little we do know. Either it was a Sahjhan controlled fake Loa, the real Loa who was simply lying for it's own reasons or the real Loa telling the truth but about an event that is still yet to occur.

Any of those make sense to a point but it's a pity we will likely never know which is correct.

[alexa]

or the Loa was just getting his info from the false prophecies, do hamburgers read? lol.

[Luciferian]

haha do hamburgers talk? but yeah im starting to think the loa was missguided like everyone else was

[FaithyFivebyFive]

I think the Loa was lieing, or maybe giving his word based on the prophesy, in the same way Wesley believed the prophesy. :P Get my drift? I can see that would be confusing... But like Rock Manic said we'll never know, really...

[Xin Rong]

Despite the fact that angel didnt devour angel ruins this little theory but i'll put it forth anyway,

If you think about it at the end of series 4 angel could be said to be killing connor when he rewrites his life, i mean he is changing his past. present and future, his personality and identity. This means that the original connor is no more, like he is dead

[FaithyFivebyFive]

But didn't Conner get his memories back anyway?
But yeah that could be what it's referring to.

Well Angel certainly killed Conner's 'spirit' in many ways. :P

[white avenger]

There's another possibility. "The vampire will devour his child" might no more HAVE to refer to Angel than the Shanshu does. Granted, Angel was the first vampire to father a child (at least, we're led to believe that) but who's to say he's the last? Maybe the entire prophecy thing referred to some entirely different vampire and son. For that matter, it might be something so simple as a father and son both being turned at the same time, then having some sort of fight that results in the son being devoured. My point is, the prophecy could be gospel true, but refer to a completely different father and son.

[Your Creamy Coolness]

I loved the cranky Hamburger. He was HIGH larious, and it was great, cause you thought some big ole demon was gonna come out, or I did.

[FaithyFivebyFive]

the prophecy could be gospel true, but refer to a completely different father and son.

Wouldn't they have revealed that sometime? I guess the writers love having us think like this lol.

[white avenger]

Wouldn't they have revealed that sometime? I guess the writers love having us think like this lol.

They never revealed that Angel and Andrew were secretly lovers, that Wesley was adopted, that Fred's real father was the Immortal, that Buffy was really half of a set of identical twins whose sister was abducted by aliens, or that Giles was a member of the Communist Party, either, but if they needed any of those things for a plot line...

[FaithyFivebyFive]

They never revealed that Angel and Andrew were secretly lovers, that Wesley was adopted, that Fred's real father was the Immortal, that Buffy was really half of a set of identical twins whose sister was abducted by aliens, or that Giles was a member of the Communist Party, either, but if they needed any of those things for a plot line...

Communist party? Lol. Yeah they also never revealed that Faith and Buffy used to be secret lovers, particularly during Season 3 of Buffy... Though there were plenty of hints.

[Bored of the Dead]

There's another possibility. "The vampire will devour his child" might no more HAVE to refer to Angel than the Shanshu does. Granted, Angel was the first vampire to father a child (at least, we're led to believe that) but who's to say he's the last? Maybe the entire prophecy thing referred to some entirely different vampire and son. For that matter, it might be something so simple as a father and son both being turned at the same time, then having some sort of fight that results in the son being devoured. My point is, the prophecy could be gospel true, but refer to a completely different father and son.

'The Father will Kill the Son' wasn't it?

Although I understand what you are saying, I was of the belief that the prophecy came true, just not how expected. Sahjahn altered it to fit his plan but the prophesy was actually refering to the end of season 4. I don't think the mindwipe was what the prophecy meant, I think Angel actually killed Connor for the swipe to take place.

If that is the case, Sahjahn manipulated the prophesy to help him which in turn set about the actual prophecy so on a technicality Sahjahn manipulated a prophecy he actually set into motion.

[alexa]

I think I get it now somewhat, because Angel did devour his son in terms of drinking his blood, and this did happen after the signs Wesley saw with the earthquake.

[Kana]

Yeah I'd say that is a legitimate way of looking at it. Technically the Loa didn't lie because devouring isn't the same as killing so what he said did technically happen, however it was pretty clear what Wes meant so while he didn't lie, he did deliberately misguide him (or of course was mistaken). It's possible Sahjhan set it up or maybe the Loa was in league with Jasmine and she was kind of on a schedule.

[MSchett]

Ill never look at a fast-food drive thru the same way again.

[Five]

I think I got it. When I read this thread, I was like "oh, right... how come the loamburger say that ?". Besides, I watched this very morning the eps for the very first time (please don't spoil me while answering me ^^).

Angel did "devour" his child, since because of Lilah's blood-stealing, he drank a bit of Connor's blood while drinking his usual pig's blood which was mixed up with the blood from the doctor's office.

It all adds up, I guess. Don't you think ?

[Darling]

I think I get it now somewhat, because Angel did devour his son in terms of drinking his blood, and this did happen after the signs Wesley saw with the earthquake.

YES! Thats what I think!

If I knew how to do the agree-thing, I would xD

[Five]

Oh, I'm so stupid, I didn't read Alexa's post and was all proud of my "discovery". I'm sorry.