The Master

[JCC]

In Season One, The Master is said to be an incredibly old vampire and that is the reason why his features are so bat-like, the producers said that they wanted vampirism to be like a disease that gets more severe as time goes on.

But then in Season Three, it says that Kakistos has hands and feet that are cloven because of how old he is. How come their features changed in such different ways to each other as a result of the same thing, age?

[Lyri]

is there ever a specific age given for either of these vampires? i'm not sure there ever was. i always figured that Kakistos was older than The Master, so his features had degraded to a further extent than The Master.
maybe if The Master had lived longer, his features would have progressed until he looked more like Kakistos.

[JCC]

Yeah but they went in completely the opposite direction.

The Master is older than Kakistos by the way, the oldest vamp on record, but his hands and feet are unaltered, they're perfectly normal.

[Bored of the Dead]

I would actually argue its more about the Vampire.
We don't know enough about the 'creature' that inhabits the dead body.
If there are different types then it doesn't matter which is older as they'd potentially have different evolutionary experiences.
Maybe its as simple as skin colour or other human changes that make us different yet underneath exactly the same.

[buffy man]

I have wondering that too. I heard it was because of all of the blood that The Master drinks or something like that. Sorry I can't be more help!

[The Master]

How can we be sure that The Master hasn't had Kakistos' features before? I imagine that The Master started out as any normal vampire then developed into the same thing that Kakistos was. He's so old that he then continued to evolve beyond the "Kakistos look" and reverted somewhat to a more human like being. So it's sort of a circle of evolution, he did look like Kakistos at some point but then continued to go around the circle until he went back to where he started out only altered and deformed.

[JCC]

In the Angel episode where there are all those flashbacks, I'm not sure which episode it was, Angelus and Darla are in the Master's little sewer thing, and Darla says that The Master has outgrown human features, not outgrown them and then grown back into them. Basically, while Kakistos turned into a larger vampire with big hoof-like hands and feet, The Master went the other way and started to resemble a much paler Turok-Han.

[nerd4hire]

Here you go. It's from the Angel episode, Darla.

Darla: "The Master has grown past the curse of human features."
Angelus: "I'm not gonna get a bat-nose like that, huh? Am I?"
Master: "Very few vampires are cunning enough to have lived as long as I have - which you've now (The Master grabs Angelus by the front of his coat and throws him across the room) demonstrated."

Here's the one for Kakistos, from Faith Hope and Trick.

Cut into the library. Giles quickly paces in and sets his things on the
counter.

Giles: 'Kakistos' is Greek. It means the worst of the worst. (Heads
behind the counter) It's also the name of a vampire so old that his
hands and feet are cloven.

Another thing to consider. The Master leaves bones. Kakistos dusts.

[alexa]

Yeah there's no explanation :p Writers have totally overlooked this, I don't get it either.

[RockManic]

Could be something as simple as asking why not all humans look exactly the same as they grow older. Some age well, others don't. Some keep their hair, others go bald. Some lose their ability to walk at 80, others don't until they hit 95 or older.

In the case of a vampire we are talking about a human form possessed by a demon that looks like what we saw Angel become in Pylea. It's safe to say that as the demon aspect takes more control there is going to be some variation in development. Kakistos may have technically been younger than the Master but his demonic development may have advanced far more quickly.

[nerd4hire]

As far as I know there is no black and white statement saying how old Kakistos or The Master are. Therefore their ages are more about the impression of the viewer. Now me, my impression has always been Kakistos is not only older than The Master, he is much older.

I got this impression from the names.

Kakistos is from the Greek. His hands and feet are cloven in a way similar to those of a character from Greek Mythology such as a satyr.

According to the shooting script of Welcome to the Hellmouth The Master's real name is Heinrich Joseph Nest. He first appears in the Virginian colonies in 1609 when he vamps Darla. He already looks like The Master so he's already grown "past the curse of human features". In my mind I always saw him as coming out of Medieval Europe or later. When would you first see a name like Heinrich Joseph Nest? I don't know.

[RockManic]

Well, the idea of any kind of surname is relatively "new", historically speaking. It wasn't until the tenth or eleventh century that the practice of having anything other than a single name was brought into use, and certainly it wasn't a common idea for many years after that.

Assuming that Heinrich Joseph Nest was his true, original name then it's likely that he did originate sometime after this, probably a century or two at the least, which would be fairly consistent with your Medieval timescale.

Apparently, according to the original script of Welcome to the Hellmouth, The Master was born around 600 years before the episode, making his year of birth approximately 1397. Not sure how canon this fact is considered though.

The problem with using Kakistos' name to age him is that we have no idea whether or not he gave himself the name or was named by others in recent years. Maybe even due to the very Greek mythological creature similarities that you mention. If that is the case then he wouldn't have to be older than the Master to have an older sounding name. Without any prior evidence of Kakistos before hitting Sunnydale it's impossible to say.

[hyperballadbrad]

I think, with regards to the age thing, the designers borrowed ideas from the 1920's Nosferatu, hence his rodent-like features.

[Voran]

It could also be that much like humans have different bloodlines and features due to race, Vampires coming from different race-subtypes of humans, or from different regions, have different features.

Course, considering that in a way Angel is from the bloodline the Master is from, does that mean in another thousand years or so he'll look like the Master when he goes vamp-form?

Course, he could end up looking more like a Jemm'Hadar, considering how he looked in Pylia.

[mogwaid]

Question,

Are the Uber vamps from Season 7 older than both the master and Kissing toast?

[JCC]

That was something I was just about to bring up.

The Turok-Han dust like normal vampires whereas The Master leaves bones behind.

The Turok-Han are WAY older than vampires, they're like pure vampires, you could compare them to the next stage of demon evolution after all pure-blood demons were wiped out.

So how come they dust normally?

[mogwaid]

i guess because they are pure vampires, not mixed with humans, they may not have human bones. they must have bones....but im not sure what my point was...

[alexa]

I'm assuming they are older... they don't have speech, or other motives besides hunger or evilness. I guess the Master is just special.

[The Master]

Maybe the Master worked some ancient ritual mojo on himself to leave his bones behind? Similar to the Mayor doing that invincibility spell. After being slain in battle the Order of Aurelius could simply collect his bones and resurrect him.

But the Turok-Han are definetly far older and stronger than the Master. They are "The Vampires that Vampires fear". Although, you must remember it's the Master's cunning mind that helps him to succeed as opposed to primal brutality.

[Ashxking]

I agree with "The Master" sence he was the leader of The Order of Aurelius. It would make sence to have some sort back up plan if he were ever to be killed.

[Shadow Weaver]

That was something I was just about to bring up.

The Turok-Han dust like normal vampires whereas The Master leaves bones behind.

The Turok-Han are WAY older than vampires, they're like pure vampires, you could compare them to the next stage of demon evolution after all pure-blood demons were wiped out.

So how come they dust normally?
When did it state that the uber-vamps are much older than all vampires? I can't remember.

[nerd4hire]

There's most likely other spots, but here's the Giles quote from BotN.

As Neanderthals are to human beings, the Turok-Han are to vampires. Primordial, ferociously powerful killing machines, as single-minded as animals.

One used to get the impression Neanderthals were thought of as pre-dating humans as part of an evolutionary chain. Now that theory is being challenged. Nevertheless, I think that's what Giles is saying.

Here's a definition of primordial. "Being or happening first in sequence of time; original."

[ILLYRIAN]

The Master was definitely of a different sort, after he had risen and he was saying to Luke ' let my soul be your soul'.
....I thought that the evil vampires didn't have a soul....
A big thing was made about Angel being the first vampire with a soul. Darla was piXXed, extremely upset that Angelus had a soul, but she was okay with the Master having one ? huh !.
To fit in with the whole 'history' of vampires, if the Master had a soul then it would have been impossible for him to be a vampire.
Oh, the reason why vampires don't have cloven hands anymore is due to them having a bugger of a time getting gloves to fit.
Good thing there's no comparison with the film 'cos Lothos's left hand man [tee-hee] was over a 1000 years old.

[Allycat]

Actually ILLYRIAN, you do bring up a good point. The film's Lothos we can disregard, but Lothos from the Origin comic book IS supposed to be canon.

The first few panels of issue 1 we are shown Lothos killing a Slayer during the Dark Ages (which ended roughly about 1,000AD) and he hints that this is not his first Slayer victim. From this we can gather that he is at least 1,000 years old.

In the comic all the vampire's features are more beastial than in the TV show, but Lothos in particular, while his normal appearance is very human, when he vamp-faces his facial lay-out changes considerably. See the picture below: