Cordelia Becoming a Demon

[CharmedSlayer85]

Okay I've always been wondering about Cordelia now being half demon, and I felt that that was NEVER fully explained. Okay she became half demon and didn't receive a demonic form, okay fine I can accept that, but I mean did she not get ANY super strength? I mean she could obviously levitate which she only did once, and I never understood the power that she received as a demon. Like when the slug demons surrounded the hotel and she did this glowy thing, what the hell was that? Did she turn on the sunlight and they all died? Like where did that come from and what exactly did she do? Also when she made Connor all nice, what was that? And what kind of demon was she that made her vision virtually painless, when Doyle was half demon and he still had pain from the visions, and he apparently was more demon then Cordelia as he had a form and strength and all that.

[Randy Giles]

I'm assuming she gained demon qualities that would allow her to withstand the pain of the visions, and she did the bright thing twice at least that I can remember. I don't think it was necessary for them to explain exactly what demon abilities she got. And she maintained her human apperance because they only added a few qualities, I suppose, whereas Doyle was born a half-demon.

[Voran]

Yeah the demon thing was a little underdefined. But I guess its plausible she didn't become super kungfu she-hulk. I suspect even if budget wasn't an issue (air ramming people probably costs money to setup), its possible she wouldn't gain much more than some of the human-form plane-touched races you see in DnD or the like.

[alexa]

At the time it didn't bother me because I assumed there would be time for more discovery and explanation, but yeah that never happened.

[Angel's vision]

The mere fact the crew and Cordy herself never really bothered to find out what "demon" she was baffled me, and that she didn't get some kind of pain when having a vision, i always assumed it was the powers letting her off as she suffered badly, but i reckon now it was part of jasmines essance that was poured into her and took completeion upon her going to a higher plane.

[CharmedSlayer85]

I don't think her becoming a demon was Jasmine's essence, because it was basically said that Jasmine couldn't get into her with her going to the higher plane, that's how she was infected. But I still find no solace in the fact that her demonic heritage was undefined. I mean even her powers were undefined. We saw her able to float once and she tried to re-do it but was never able to do it again. She did this glowing thing and basically destroyed all the little swiggly worm things, she did it again was basically able to destroy Connor's knife and calm him down, and she said she occassionally uses it as a night light, but again it was highly undefined as to what it was. But I mean Doyle was half demon and he still experienced pain from the visions, so I didn't get the whole Cordelia thing either

[Lyri]

wasn't it explained that Jasmine needed her to become less than human so that she could infect her the way she did? yes, i know Jasmine needed to get Cordy to the higher plane, because that was the only place she could infect her, as i thought it was obvious that Jasmine couldn't get to earth.
but Cordelia was 100% human, maybe Jasmine couldn't infect her like taht, so she had Skip imbue her with enough demonic...powers or energy whatever to make Jasmine's infection of Cordy possible, but didn't give her enough to alter her appearence or physical ability so that when she finally did return after she'd possessed Cordy, the rest of the gang wouldn't suspect anything or ask any questions...did that make sense?

[Black Eye Guy]

First off, Doyle was a demon before he got the visions, Cordelia became part demon after - in order to accommodate her pain from the Visions, so it makes sense that the pain from the visions stopped!

Also not all demons have super strength, we see a good few demons that don’t, like Marve in Angel, or the demon that had the books of ascension in season 3 of Buffy - So there's no reason why Cordy should have super strength!

I don't really take it that Cordelia was turned into a specific demon, just something more along the line of the Slayer power, a girl is imbued with the essence of a demon - Doesn't get called a specific demon but has traits of a demon, super strength, speed, agility and healing.

I thought it was kinda obvious that Cordys light power was like a cleansing power, no? I mean she cleansed The hotel of the demon's and cleansed Connors Anger?

[Lyri]

ok, forget what i said...BEG said it all. that guy knows what he's talking about!

[RockManic]

What a lot of people seem to miss here is that she wasn't changed to help her survive the visions. That was just the excuse created to get her to agree. She was changed in order to become a vessel for the birth of Jasmine so any displayed powers would no doubt be in some way attached to that purpose rather than just some random demonic abilities.

Or do you really think it was a coincidence that Jasmine did the "glowing healing" thing too? ;)

[Angel's vision]

I agree there and maybe that's why her visions hurt so much because they were manipulated by Jasmine so that they were so bad she had no chioce but to agree to be part demon so she could live.

She was changed in order to become a vessel for the birth of Jasmine so any displayed powers would no doubt be in some way attached to that purpose rather than just some random demonic abilities.

Or do you really think it was a coincidence that Jasmine did the "glowing healing" thing too?



Which is why i tihnk that Jasmines essence was poured into her so she could take over her body.

Why i think Cordeila was a silly great ape for agreeing to be a part demon higher power is because she never questioned never asked Angel and co for help when she was suffering.

I never understood her willingess to leave for the higher plane anyway, i thought she understood she was his link to the powers? Or did she feel that being a higher power was more more importnant?

[marukisu]

The whole Cordy dying in a coma thing though kinda ruined the possibilites of seeing what she could really do as far as her half demon powers were concerned. Im pretty sure that after her whole evil phase and if she was reborn she would have gained powers to help Angel fight in the final battle.

[ILLYRIAN]

And there we have another question, did Cordy really die ? If the writers had wanted to they could have got 'round that quite easily by saying that WR & H had fabricated a simple lie to make those from AI think Cordy had died. She might still be out there !.

[marukisu]

And there we have another question, did Cordy really die ? If the writers had wanted to they could have got 'round that quite easily by saying that WR & H had fabricated a simple lie to make those from AI think Cordy had died. She might still be out there !.

THAT IS VERY BRILIANT!!!!!!!

[Bored of the Dead]

The whole Cordy dying in a coma thing though kinda ruined the possibilites of seeing what she could really do as far as her half demon powers were concerned. Im pretty sure that after her whole evil phase and if she was reborn she would have gained powers to help Angel fight in the final battle.

You can't be 'sure' because you have no frame of reference. Its like me saying that 'I'm pretty sure that had Angel not had Lyndsey killed then he would have lived on and made W&H a force for good' or 'I'm pretty sure that if Fred hadn't died she'd have grown wings anyway and flown Wesley to the Moon for their 1 year anniversary'.

You can suppose and presume but you 'can't be sure'.

And there we have another question, did Cordy really die ? If the writers had wanted to they could have got 'round that quite easily by saying that WR & H had fabricated a simple lie to make those from AI think Cordy had died. She might still be out there !.

Thats actually pretty bland. There are numerous ways to deal with this, including the fact that Cordelia is probably in Heaven now and we know from Buffy that in this case the body and soul are retrievable.


THAT IS VERY BRILIANT!!!!!!!
No, it really isn't.

[ILLYRIAN]

Oh ! naughty, naughty, marukisu. As Bored of the Dead put it you can presume and suppose but you can't be sure !.
Of course you can do what Bored of the Dead did in the same post.... suppose or presume that something is a fact.

[alexa]

Nothing wrong with hoping a loved character isn't really dead... doesn't bother me.
This whole thread though is making me cranky about what happened to Cordelia :p

[Bored of the Dead]

Oh ! naughty, naughty, marukisu. As Bored of the Dead put it you can presume and suppose but you can't be sure !.
Of course you can do what Bored of the Dead did in the same post.... suppose or presume that something is a fact.

I said Cordelia was PROBABLY in heaven, being she was on the side of good AND a 'soldier' of the PTB's, thats not a huge leap.
I also said that we know that the body and soul are not irretrievable because we have proof of that from Buffy.

[celestialarrow]

What a lot of people seem to miss here is that she wasn't changed to help her survive the visions. That was just the excuse created to get her to agree. She was changed in order to become a vessel for the birth of Jasmine so any displayed powers would no doubt be in some way attached to that purpose rather than just some random demonic abilities.

Or do you really think it was a coincidence that Jasmine did the "glowing healing" thing too? ;)



actually cordelia was changed into half demon to help survive the visions just because jasmine manipulated events to get to earth doesnt mean that a human can withstand the visions i mean look what it was doing to cordy. skip even mention if she went back to her body she would lie there unable move unable to speak until the next vision hit her then she would die. look at tammy from that episode the visions killed her actually they blew the back of her head out. and the whole jasmine's essence being poured into cordy i dont believe that, because jasmine whole plan was to get back to earth i really doubt that was the case or else perhaps it would have been mentioned jasmine existed in cordy. also cordy was dieing from the visions her cat scans proved that. the whole becoming part demon was so she could withstand the visions and so she could be less human so when she got to the higher planes she could be infected. oh and on another note i noticed that someone said that cordy's transformation was more demon essence than her being half demon i doubt that because skip would have said that perhaps than saying she needed to become part demon to keep the visions.

[SC7 Fan]

i've been wondering this for a while now but what sort of demon did she become???

[Buffanator]

actually cordelia was changed into half demon to help survive the visions just because jasmine manipulated events to get to earth doesnt mean that a human can withstand the visions i mean look what it was doing to cordy. skip even mention if she went back to her body she would lie there unable move unable to speak until the next vision hit her then she would die. look at tammy from that episode the visions killed her actually they blew the back of her head out. and the whole jasmine's essence being poured into cordy i dont believe that, because jasmine whole plan was to get back to earth i really doubt that was the case or else perhaps it would have been mentioned jasmine existed in cordy. also cordy was dieing from the visions her cat scans proved that. the whole becoming part demon was so she could withstand the visions and so she could be less human so when she got to the higher planes she could be infected. oh and on another note i noticed that someone said that cordy's transformation was more demon essence than her being half demon i doubt that because skip would have said that perhaps than saying she needed to become part demon to keep the visions.


But... wasn't Skip (loved Skip, BTW!!!!) *fudging* the truth a bit? I mean, I understood that his telling Cordy that if she went back into her body & couldn't move or speak & then she'd die was just a fabrication, to manipulate her ... to put her in POSITION for what Jasmine was trying to accomplish. Like... Skip was a tool for Jasmine, to put Cordy in place, to begin *the plan*. Because later on, didn't Angel and Skip fight it out... because Skip slipped up & said something that Angel caught onto - and the real truth finally came out. Course by then, it was too late (for Cordy).

Somebody please correct me if I'm remembering wrong... LOL... I'm in a marathon of Buffy viewings, in S-7 right now, & plan to start an Angel marathon as soon as Buffy is over...so I won't be watching that particular eppy where Angel & Skip fight for quite a while. :D

[ILLYRIAN]

botd body and soul are not irretrievable?
When Buffy was brought back she had body and soul.

One of the problems of the Cordelia to Jasmine thing, it seems that Cordy was done then at a later stage the Jasmine thing was tried to be explained, but it wasn't done very well.

[Superstar]

But... wasn't Skip (loved Skip, BTW!!!!) *fudging* the truth a bit? I mean, I understood that his telling Cordy that if she went back into her body & couldn't move or speak & then she'd die was just a fabrication, to manipulate her ... to put her in POSITION for what Jasmine was trying to accomplish. Like... Skip was a tool for Jasmine, to put Cordy in place, to begin *the plan*. Because later on, didn't Angel and Skip fight it out... because Skip slipped up & said something that Angel caught onto - and the real truth finally came out.
Did the real truth come out?
Here's the thing; Wolfram & Hart acknowledged that Angel & co. screwed up with world peace and kept them in business. Go team Angel!

Was Skip the bad guy? Was he simply an agent for a rogue PTB?
Did he let his charge get taken simply to allow Cordelia to recover from her Wolfram & Hart arranged mind attacks so that she would later be able to ascend? Or was something else really going on?

We know why the Beast was set loose on Wolfram & Hart, to begin eliminating the most evil influences on earth. I'm sure the other branch offices would have followed soon.

Could Jasmine's power have easily swayed most of these people to her cause just like the rest of the populace? Did Wolfram & Hart have a way to prevent such a thing happening and that is why the massacre occurred? Did they need to die or was the real main goal to eliminate the conduit all along, with the employees as simply collateral damage?

The Oracles were slain by the Beast to prevent the other PTB from interfering... why? If Jasmine was bringing world peace then is there something else going on with TPTB that possibly isn't quite so benevolent?

Who sent the Mohra demon and why? It doubt it was Wolfram & Hart, they wanted Angel around since he was a major player. I also doubt it was the work of Jasmine or her agents since that would ultimately prevent her emergence. So who? Someone with a personal ax to grind? Was the plan all along to weaken defenses since the Mohra demon stated that together they were powerful and alone they were dead - benefiting neither Wolfram & Hart or Jasmine. Is there a third party involved unknown to anyone? And are they ultimately good or evil?

Are TPTB aligned with the Senior Partners? Are they the Senior Partners? Are they the remnants of the Old Ones working against the Senior Partners? We know from Jasmine that TPTB really don't care that much about humanity.

Was Angel given missions via visions simply to keep him otherwise occupied and out of Wolfram & Hart's way? Much like Jasmine (in reverse), what was the saving of a few "inconsequential" people when it is the endgame that matters.

Skip knew Billy should not be released (who put him there?) and that doing so was for the benefit of Wolfram & Hart and ultimately for Jasmine. Yet, he took the dive. By whose orders? No release would have ended with Cordelia's death. Bad for Jasmine. If Wolfram & Hart were behind it, why put him there in the first place? For Angel to "rescue"? Kind of pointless to kill Cordelia if she was a distraction for Angel in helping the helpless. To make him take one more step towards their side?

Skip gave Cordelia a choice to turn her back on that vision thing, give her a normal life and everything she could want. So, I have to ask myself why she was given the choice to begin with? By whose orders? And what benefit? Why did Skip make the offer when it had no benefit for Wolfram & Hart, Jasmine or TBPB?

I would say that all the evidence points to another party involved and I think there are no true good sides in the triangle. It seems Skip was a player in all camps. Skip... not a dupe.