Why can't Angel do CPR? [Archive]

jruby82

03-30-2007, 05:49 PM

I've been watching Buffy for about five and a half years (not very long in the grand scheme, I know), but I didn't start discussing it online until recently, so please forgive me if I'm beating the proverbial dead horse.

My question is simple. Why can't Angel do CPR? I searched for the words "angel" and "cpr" together here on the BB and only came up with one thread (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=18209&highlight=angel+cpr) that fit both criteria. I don't really understand what the person was saying -- I'm not sure they do either.

And for the record, they can and do breathe (which is how they speak and smoke) out of habit, more than anything I think, but I think Giles mentioned at some stage that it spoils the air. (Which is why Angel can't do CPR)

Does anyone know what she's talking about as far as what Giles supposedly mentioned about it spoiling the air?

The way I see it, if a vamp can smoke, and talk, and otherwise perform the act of breathing, meaning the diaphragm and lungs function on some basic level, then why wouldn't Angel be able to perform CPR? Isn't it just sucking in air from the atmosphere and then releasing it into someone else? Wouldn't Angel's "breath" in fact be even more pure than a living person's breath, since living people convert oxygen into carbon dioxide before it is exhaled? Or is this Jill person correct, and Giles indeed did explain that a vamp's breath is somehow spoiled? I guess it makes sense in some way -- if living people convert oxygen into CO2 when it passes through the blood, then maybe a vamp converts oxygen into something evil when it passes through its blood. That is, assuming oxygen is actually prosessed that way in vamps, which I assume it is not.

I'm sorry my thoughts aren't more organized. I often think with my fingers.

Lyri

03-30-2007, 05:53 PM

i think it has something to do with the fact that a vampire is essentially a reanimated corpse...the body's dead. so when they take in air to breathe or smoke, they corrupt it some how, turn it sour, i guess. so they can't use that breath to help a living human being breathe again.

jruby82

03-30-2007, 05:54 PM

If that's the case, you'd think having sex with a vamp might be harmful to one's health too. :silly:

mogwaid

03-31-2007, 05:14 AM

Yeah, or totally making out with one.

JCC

03-31-2007, 05:57 PM

Maybe they don't breathe oxygen? Maybe, vampires breathe carbon dioxide, and so they rely on global warming?!

What... it's a theory. :(

jesterjay

04-01-2007, 07:51 AM

Well they don't breathe at all - he makes mention to Xander that he has no breathe right, and let's recall he hung out at the bottom of the Ocean for three months... he doesn't need to breathe.

Varr

04-01-2007, 11:27 PM

actually, they dont have need for air whatsoever. It isn't essential for them to breathe, so they can't breathe. I believe angel states something similar to that effect somewhere in the buffy/angel verse.
course i could be wrong

jruby82

04-02-2007, 12:00 AM

I understand that vampires have no need for breathing. However, they are obviously capable of the act of breathing -- sucking the air in and pushing it back out -- because they can talk, smoke, etc. So why couldn't Angel have just taken in a lung full of air and then pushed it into Buffy, like Spike taking a puff of a cig and exhaling the smoke? The only reason I can think of is that there's something wrong with the air after it has been inside a vampire's lungs, like it's spoiled as mentioned above. But does anyone know of any time that this is stated?

JCC

04-02-2007, 04:31 PM

Mandy333

04-04-2007, 10:37 PM

Angel doesn't do CPR, because he doesnt have the lung power to do it, so he tells Zander to perform it.

blakelovesbuffy

05-27-2007, 07:55 PM

Maybe they don't breathe in the oxygen, they just breathe in everything itself, since oxygen is what makes your heart beat, so they obviously don't have any.

So, vampires probably have the oxygen filtered out.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. They CAN smoke & breathe if they want to but they don't HAVE to but if they want to "breathe", I think it is just empty breathing if that's what you wanna call it. Breathing but no oxygen, no life.

Randy Giles

06-02-2007, 09:22 PM

First of all, their bodies cannot be dead and rotting. If they were, they would continue to rot and eventually be zombies, essentially. So when they are vampires they're bodies HAVE to be alive, personally I think in the Buffyverse they're bodies are just sort of immortal-ized by the demons that take them over. I mean, they bleed, which means their blood circulates, and they can be poisoned.

We see the vampires on the show breathing all the time. In fact, they couldn't talk without breathing, let alone smoke. And if they breathe in, they're going to breathe in oxygen along with everything else, and since they're body presumably doesn't need it, it makes no sense as to why they couldn't perform CPR.

Personally I think it's a writer's mistake, one that comes from them not properly thinking out what a vampire truly is in their world.

Ojuice5001

06-08-2007, 07:10 PM

I mean, they bleed, which means their blood circulates, and they can be poisoned.

Yes, vampires do bleed as if their blood flows in the same way as a mortal human's. And yet, there are plenty of references to how a vampire's heart doesn't beat.

We see the vampires on the show breathing all the time. In fact, they couldn't talk without breathing, let alone smoke. And if they breathe in, they're going to breathe in oxygen along with everything else, and since they're body presumably doesn't need it, it makes no sense as to why they couldn't perform CPR.

Yeah, the question of whether vampires breathe, and the question of whether their hearts beat, are both handled inconsistently. I think most of us would agree with your conclusion that

Personally I think it's a writer's mistake, one that comes from them not properly thinking out what a vampire truly is in their world.

RockManic

06-08-2007, 07:40 PM

I think this boils down to what it means to be alive. A vampire is a human that has died and had it's soul replaced by a demonic essence. The body continues to exist but is no longer alive in the true sense. It no longer ages or requires oxygen, food or water in the way it once did to survive. When harmed a vampire's body can heal more easily and withstand a much greater amount of damage than it could when it was in it's human form.

That suggests that all the outward signs of "life" that a vampire exhibits are there purely for cosmetic reasons. As a form of disguise or cover to prevent it's prey from working out too quickly that they are looking at a dead being. To do that the vampire body would need to maintain certain bodily functions artificially, without the use of the original organs that performed the given functions. The blood has to flow without a heart beating and air has to enter and leave the body without the use of the lungs, at least in the human sense.

Basically, nothing about a vampire's physical appearance is happening the way it did when it was human. There is air being drawn into the vampire form but it is not being processed in the same way that it was when the body was still alive. Because of that it is a safe bet that a vampire's "breathe" would not be much use when trying to bring a human back to life by way of CPR. Whatever process is causing the illusion of breathe in the vampire will likely be totally incompatible with the needs of a human.

white avenger

06-08-2007, 09:31 PM

[QUOTE=Ojuice5001;441206]Yes, vampires do bleed as if their blood flows in the same way as a mortal human's. And yet, there are plenty of references to how a vampire's heart doesn't beat.

I know a lot of you don't like to hear about the S T universe, but a long time ago, Dr McCoy explained that, along with other things, Vulcans don't have a centralized circulatory system, but rather their blood circulates due to a sort of rhythmic rippling of the various blood vessels. Possibly vampires accomplish their blood circulation in a similar way, and the oxygen is completely absorbed from each and every breath that they take, thus rendering whatever they exhale not only useless, but potentially toxic to humans.

I've always sort of doubted the whole "don't breathe" thing with vampires anyhow. They may not NEED to breathe, but breathing is an involuntary reflex, just like blinking (that's why you can't commit suicide by simply holding your breath until you suffocate). How many times have we seen various vampires sigh, breathe normally, and even pant after strenuous activity? Their demon physiology may not require breathing, but their bodies still possess the breathing reflex.

Bishop Cruz

06-10-2007, 12:13 PM

Well, so long as he is able to push air into her lungs things should be fine. It's an attempts to get the lungs working again, along with the heart. My fanwank on it is that Angel simply didn't know how, and said the breath thing to cover for that fact.

Fallen Angelus

07-07-2007, 08:46 PM

I have never, ever heard anything about vampires "breathing" anything toxic or harmful to humans. If that were the case, anyone who kissed or got too close to a vampire when they were smoking would be toast.

Considering that this happened right around Season 1 which didn't really set the world on fire to begin with, I think it's safe to say that this is nothing more than an inconsistency that occured as Joss and the rest of the writers were trying to iron out exactly how this whole vampire thing worked. After all, Prophecy Girl predates School Hard, which, if I remember correctly, is what got people wondering about all of this in the first place.

MLLamble

08-23-2007, 03:20 PM

Basically, the only breath that a vamp has is used for speaking, so there's rarely any left over to be given to someone else. Also, (pure speculation) maybe they breathe out cursed air?

Mr Scumbag

09-30-2007, 12:53 AM

I know this isn't exactly going to end speculation, but I remember Angel's exact words when Xander wanted him to revive Buffy. Angel told Xander he'd have to do it because, "I have no breath". I'm 90% certain they were Angel's exact words.

That may help for further explanation. Unfortunately, i think this is just one of those times that there is no real explanation. Although I'm all for formulating something credible. :)

boreanaz

10-09-2007, 12:52 AM

Umm , like me see , first off , he's a vampire & he's dead , lol , that mit be why.

Lillie

12-27-2007, 06:32 PM

I think you should check out the episode, Angel kind of explains it as I recall...

Kemy

12-28-2007, 08:34 AM

The most ridiculous thing is he's panting heavily as he says it *shakeshead* theres no reason why he couldn't do CPR by just simulating breathing, he may not need to but he can breath, its just a matter of doing so.

Then again if the heart doesn't beat and they don't have blood flow then there are other things he shouldn't be able to do either...

Kana

12-28-2007, 03:04 PM

I agree with the theory that their blood does not possess life giving qualities. We know that in the Buffyverse, the brain and blood have mystical and physiological qualities. Perhaps breath is the same. The breath from a vampire lacks the synergy of mystical and physiological attributes to be life giving. This is sort of like Darla and her problem with pregnancy.

WhiteHat

01-21-2008, 10:15 AM

The whole issue with breathing I found problematic on the show with regard to the vamps. In a couple of shots the actor's/vamp's breath could clearly be seen, when they shot outside in the cool night air. For example, I recently rewatched the ep in Angel when Darla sires Angel and he rises up from the grave at night and snacks on the caretaker. Both Darla's and Angel's breath could be seen. In an ep of Buffy, Spike's breath was also visible during a night shoot. Now if a vamp is a dead corpse (i.e. not generating body heat) why would we be seeing their breath? It constitutes a major Goof in the 2 shows, but you'd think the prod. company would have done something to get around this problem early on. I know, we're being nit-picky. LOL

Vicariously

01-21-2008, 11:58 AM

you guys amaze me...the fact is, you are disecting the show and it quite frankly makes me think wow!...they actually thought of that...and then I too find myself thinking hmmm. GRRRR. THANKS LOL

but yeah I am gonna have to go with the theory that a vampire doesnt breath in the same way a human actually does and therefor he really didnt have "breath" to give...

I mean if you think about it...someone else posted a thread about them being able to "breath under water"...can a human do that? no...so that means their breathing is essentialy diffrent than a humans...

to go a step further a Vampire is "living" in a sense, only in form, truly though it has no heart beat..which is essential to life. That is why they are called the "un-dead." which is mind boggling on its own.

FaithyFivebyFive

01-21-2008, 06:30 PM

Considering the amount of times Angel breathes heavily and is puffed out, oh and the smoking, I'd think he would be able to do CPR.

WhiteHat

01-22-2008, 11:26 AM

Now that I think of it, kissing a vamp would be easier: you wouldn't have them breathing all over you! LOL
Of course I'd have to watch out for those teeth! :D

*goes off to fantasize about Vamp Harmony...*

Randy Giles

01-27-2008, 01:24 PM

Vampires obviously breathe involuntarily despite not having to do so. Wouldn't that mean that his body wouldn't absorb the oxygen, and therefore make him a better candidate for giving CPR than a human?

babyo0ogirl

03-06-2008, 05:14 PM

Ok, slightly off topic, but not really. In "Prophecy Girl" when Angel & Xander find Buffy dead, why the heck is Angel panting? If he supposedly has no breath, then why is he panting, obviously breathing? I would think that they could have easily filmed it so that he wasn't so obviously breathing loudly. I just noticed this upon rewatching it, and it annoyed me.

Hello Cutie

03-09-2008, 08:07 AM

They probably didn't think about it at the time, so they've made them run to find her, and so Angel's panting because he's probably run to find her, and during the filming they've forgotten to edit it.

Either that, or, its said in a couple of episodes every now and then (both in Angel and Buffy) that while vampires don't directly need to breathe, they do it out of habit, which I guess I can understand... so maybe that's why... even though he doesn't actually need to breathe, its a habit thing that he doesn't realise he's doing, hence the panting after physical exertion of some sort... but then it leads you straight back to "well if he's panting, he has breath, and if he has breath, then why can't he give CPR?"... bit annoying really...

Joyce Summers

03-09-2008, 08:12 AM

See, I always saw it as, yes they can simulate breathing, to make it look like they are doing so, but since they're dead their lungs wouldn't work in the same way as ours. Taking oxygen in and converting etc. So while it can look like they're breathing, we're not seeing actual breath. More like Imititation Breath which, in my opinion, explains why he couldn't do CPR. It looks like he's breathing, but it's not real breath and so he couldn't perform the CPR and save Buffy.

I hope that rambly explanation made sense. Hehe

Slayerfest 99

03-12-2008, 05:06 PM

Blondie Bear

03-12-2008, 05:42 PM

I'm going to go with it was probably something that the writers came up with at the time, because at the end of season 2 "in becoming pt2" Spike chokes Dru until she passes out, which if vampires don't breathe or need air then this wouldn't have been possible.

I don't think he was choking her; I think he was pinching a nerve or an artery. I've watched the scene a few times and that's the conclusion I came to, anyway.

Kana

03-13-2008, 11:40 AM

I don't think he was choking her; I think he was pinching a nerve or an artery. I've watched the scene a few times and that's the conclusion I came to, anyway.

Yeah, apparently, he cut off the bloodflow to her brain, so she passed out. As Spike said, blood does have some mystical qualities which is why vampires eat it.

Slayerfest 99

03-14-2008, 12:13 PM

I just went back and watched that becoming epi, then I looked up on the net and it looks like what Spike did is called a sleeper hold, where an oppent puts pressure on the other opponents carotid, cutting off blood supply to the brain, which then leads you to pass out. So if Dru had the blood to her brain stopped then yeah she would pass out, but i kinda figured if a vampires heart doesn't beat then the blood supply does not run through the body (so how can you cut off the blood supply if the blood isn't even being pumped) and red blood cells carry oxygen (among other things) which vampires don't need........: erm : ok I'm getting a little confused because now everything sounds conflicted....

Bored of the Dead

03-14-2008, 12:35 PM

Kana

03-16-2008, 03:15 AM

Like I said, blood does seem to have mystical qualities that vampires need (as opposed the physiological reasons we need blood flow). And yes vampires do bleed and have sex etc so despite the lack of a beating heart, they do have blood flow.

Blondie Bear

03-16-2008, 11:57 AM

Vampires = mystical creatures = magic = it doesn't have to make biological sense.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Bored of the Dead

03-16-2008, 12:19 PM

Vampires = mystical creatures = magic = it doesn't have to make biological sense.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

With that logic this must apply

Fantasy show = mystical creatures/beings = magic = it doesn't have to make sense.

Fine then, I never want to hear you complain or question something in the show because I'll just post that!!

Blondie Bear

03-16-2008, 12:31 PM

Bored of the Dead

03-16-2008, 12:41 PM

A lot of stuff in Fantasy doesn't make "realistic" sense. Like oh, say, magic. Usually it has to be internally consistent, though. Whedon's vampires aren't internally consistent. I've given up trying to make them internally consistent.

Which is annoying as they kind of get top billing as the enemy because it is Buffy the Vampire Slayer not Buffy the Miscellaneous Demon Slayer

Edit:

Blondie Bear agrees: If you ever meet Joss, make sure to call him on that.

Ohh trust me, If I ever meet the big man, I have QUITE a few questions for him.

You think I am bad here?!?!

I don't hold Joss in any kind of reverence so I'll lay into him.

Blondie Bear

03-16-2008, 12:42 PM

He'll probably be all, "I know . . . I know . . . Security!!"

Bored of the Dead

03-16-2008, 12:45 PM

He'll probably be all, "I know . . . I know . . . Security!!"

I'll have hom cornered and begging for mercy before he can lisp 'sthecurity'

Slayerfest 99

03-17-2008, 12:43 PM

Vampires = mystical creatures = magic = it doesn't have to make biological sense.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ok I guess I'll accept that, just like Angel and Darla haveing Conner......

Bored of the Dead

03-17-2008, 01:58 PM

Ok I guess I'll accept that, just like Angel and Darla haveing Conner......

Thats actually different.

Connor is the life that Angel 'won' in The Trial for Darla, so this is direct from TPTB and/or Jasmine(if you believe her)

Slayerfest 99

03-18-2008, 09:55 AM

Thats actually different.

Connor is the life that Angel 'won' in The Trial for Darla, so this is direct from TPTB and/or Jasmine(if you believe her)

Ahhh I see, I'll definately need to go back and rewatch that, so does that mean this thread get a stake through it now? I don't know what else there would be to say about it.

Jules

06-18-2008, 04:35 PM

InsaneMystic

06-18-2008, 09:57 PM

I always just took it to mean that because Angel was dead he couldn't provide the oxygen to perform CPR. Like someone already said, vampires breath out of habit, maybe its just reflex and not the actual act, like they breath in, but because they don't have any working organs no oxygen is actually drawn into their lungs. So it looks like their breathing but nothing is actually happening.
But that's silly... if they "drawn in air" in any way - and they clearly do, with all the talking and smoking - they obviously draw in oxygen too. And if they inhale, their lungs are working, at least on a muscle activity level. (Unless, of course, it's their stomach and not their lungs at work... who knows, perhaps vampires talking is in fact finely controlled burping? :lmao: ) Their inhaling somehow excluding the oxygen, just taking in nitrogen and trace stuff... that's quite a bit too "yeah, right" for me.

Actually, with their lungs not doing the oxygen absorption, just "muscle pumping", vampires should even be better than humans at CPR, as they would give breath with the full oxygen content just as in normal air, instead of the oxygen-depleted, carbondioxide-enriched air a human would breathe out.

littlewilly

06-18-2008, 10:05 PM

Maybe as Angel is 250 years old, his lungs(like his heart) are all shrivled and dried up. I cant see them functioning as normal.

Superstar

06-19-2008, 01:10 AM

Garlic breath.
Kills them every time.

Never took the classes?

Ok, I have no other answer that isn't covering up for bad writing. Sorry.

Jules

06-19-2008, 01:56 AM

But that's silly... if they "drawn in air" in any way - and they clearly do, with all the talking and smoking - they obviously draw in oxygen too. And if they inhale, their lungs are working, at least on a muscle activity level. (Unless, of course, it's their stomach and not their lungs at work... who knows, perhaps vampires talking is in fact finely controlled burping? :lmao: ) Their inhaling somehow excluding the oxygen, just taking in nitrogen and trace stuff... that's quite a bit too "yeah, right" for me.

Actually, with their lungs not doing the oxygen absorption, just "muscle pumping", vampires should even be better than humans at CPR, as they would give breath with the full oxygen content just as in normal air, instead of the oxygen-depleted, carbondioxide-enriched air a human would breathe out.

Ok, but vampires in the Buffyverse don't have to breath. So going off other information I've heard about vampires, most recently Stephenie Meyer's Eclipse (I'm only mentioning this because I can't think of a scene in the Buffyverse were this point has been made) Vampires can stop breathing if they need too, but they can still talk. They talk without oxygen in their lungs.

I don't think its obvious that they draw in air. As being's that are actually walking corpses we don't know what their body needs.

InsaneMystic

06-20-2008, 09:38 AM

Ok, but vampires in the Buffyverse don't have to breath. So going off other information I've heard about vampires, most recently Stephenie Meyer's Eclipse (I'm only mentioning this because I can't think of a scene in the Buffyverse were this point has been made) Vampires can stop breathing if they need too, but they can still talk. They talk without oxygen in their lungs.

I don't think its obvious that they draw in air. As being's that are actually walking corpses we don't know what their body needs.
Well, they may not breathe in the sense of needing to enrich their blood with oxygen... but we wouldn't be able to hear them speak unless they're pressing some kind of gas out of their lungs, through throat, mouth and/or nose. (I can't fully rule out, of course, that they might have some kind of "mystical synthesizer" to provide the sound... however, then it would be pointless moving their jaws, lips and tongues to speak, unless they're doing it out of habit and/or as a disguise. Anyway, this is where it hits the limit of my personal suspension of disbelief. I guess studying Phonetics can sometimes really spoil your enjoyment of TV. ;) )

So where does that gas come from? Most probably from inhaling (as they must be able to exhale to speak, it's pretty safe to assume they inhale beforehand :) )... and then we're stuck with the question, if they inhale air, where does the oxygen go?

I guess the best explanation (aside from "Angel is a dumbass and just didn't know that he would have been able to give CPR, too") would be either 1) oxygen alone doesn't suffice for CPR, you require a sharing of mystical "élan vital" only provided by living organisms. Unfortunately, that raises another nitpicky question: would it, in the Buffyverse, be possible to do CPR with a mechanical breathing apparatus?

...or 2) it might be some "élan mortal" given out by vampires... their breath working, in whatever inexplicable way, as a "death giver" and not a "life giver", even if a mundane chemical analysis probably wouldn't be able to differentiate the gas exchanged from the normal air around us. And if that's the case, kissing a vampire is flirting with death on an even higher level than we thought. ;)

Ah well. I guess I stick with "Angel = dumbass" as the answer. That guy clearly doesn't have his thinking straight, anyway, when he's around Buffy, so choosing that answer isn't too far a stretch of imagination. :biggrin:

littlewilly

06-26-2008, 12:10 AM

Well, they may not breathe in the sense of needing to enrich their blood with oxygen... but we wouldn't be able to hear them speak unless they're pressing some kind of gas out of their lungs, through throat, mouth:

Yes we would. Dont need to exhale to produce sound.

Dlou444

06-26-2008, 12:16 AM

Yes we would. Dont need to exhale to produce sound.

We do if we want people to understand us and respond! You really are out to be a PAIN tonight aren't you? Well, be warned, I am TOO!

As a side note, ever get to the point, after seeing a thread title pop up so much that you start answering the thread in your head with horrible answers?
Like when I saw this say, "Why Can't Angel Do CPR?" and my brain just said, "Because he's a nancy boy ponce".
It really is nothing against the poster or even the post...just my smart-butt brain.

Perhaps I should just tear through ALL the threads until I get tired doing that.