Canon Watch (Spoilers for current issue)

[nerd4hire]

There's a thread elsewhere on the boards asking the question "Are you still a fan if you avoid the comics?"

One of the conclusions come to appears to be you're not so much a poor Buffyverse fan as an uninformed one.

So mister nice guy here figured "What the Hell, post a thread updating people who either choose to avoid the comics, or don't have access to them on developments in Buffyverse canon".

I'm going by memory so feel free to correct, or add.

Issue # 1

1. There are 1800 new slayers counted.

2. 500 of those work actively in a new organization set up by Buffy and the Scoobs. Buffy, Dawn, and Xander are centered in Scotland. Andrew runs a cell in Italy. Giles is at an undetermined location. Willow is a question mark.

3. They appear to be well financed, and have access to high tech such as helicopters, Kevlar, viewer screens, satellite access, GPS tracking capability, and harpoon guns for rappelling. They still don't use guns.

4. There are 2 doppleganger Buffys. The impersonators were set up to protect Buffy as she was being tageted. One is underground - literally. The other is the Buffy we saw in Girl in Question who was dating the Immortal. Andrew set that one up, because he thought it would be funny.

5. There are new slayers. Read about them HERE (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=32600)

6. Xander is referred to by Buffy as her watcher, but she may speaking facetiously.

7. Dawn has lost her virginity to something, or someone called Kenny the Thricewise. For "Thricewise" see HERE (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=31783). The experience has caused her to grow into a giant.

8. A Military organization within the government is not happy with Buffy and the new slayers. They blame them for the hole in the ground that is Sunnydale, and fear them as a terrorist organization.

9. Amy lives. She was buried under the rubble of Sunnydale with an unknown boyfriend. She appears insane, and wants to kill Buffy.

Issue # 2

1. Dawn was supposed to be at Berkeley.

2. At least some members of the military belong to an organization which tattoos symbols to their chests signifying twilight.

3. Buffy's group also has girl witches. Buffy sleeps with mystic protection.

4. One of the new slayers - Renee - has a crush on Xander.

5. Amy is very powerful. She raises the Scottish dead to create a Zombie army. Her power is at least close to a par with Willow's.

6. The Scottish castle uses human guards as well as mystical protections.

7. Giles puts a little more meat on what we know about the watchers.

The organization existed since before there were cities. The Watchers' Council. Always moving, always secret, but very much alive.

There were hundreds of watchers, and one slayer


Issue # 3

1. Ethan Rayne lives. He has been kept captive all this time in a military prison, but can do the out-of-body thing.

2. Willow is mega-powerful. She can fly, and shoot power bolts out her hands like Doctor Strange.

3. Remember Willow saying "Magic works off science"? Another layer is added to that. Magic can be decoded. Also..."Serious magic is kinda like improv...You can't just stop it cold. You gotta adapt."

4. A new concept is introduced. Dreamspace. Ethan explains it as follows.

"In brief, you ar always dreaming every dream you could dream all the time. Even when you're awake. A part of your brain is stirring that brew. Which one you choose to remember in the morning is based on wishes, anxietries - in your (Buffy's) case your collective slayer memory and prophecies are mixed in as well. It's a vast and fascinting place. Everywhere you turn, a part of you..."

5. When two dreamscapes are connected. One participant gets access to the other's.

6. The Watcher's can negotiate with the demon realm.

7. Willow is having relationship problems with Kennedy. Kennedy died as a result of some sort of mystical thing, and was brought back. Apparently it freaked her. Her and Willow are on some sort of hiatus from each other.

8. Warren lives. He still has no skin.

Issue # 4

1. Warren is Amy's boyfriend. Amy rescued him at the moment dark Willow peeled his skin away towards the end of Season 6. Amy's magic somehow protects Warren's skinless body. Warren was in on the spell from Season 7's Killer in Me where Willow turned into Warren. He wants revenge on Buffy and Willow. He tries to lobotomize Willow.

2. Dawn is not as proportionately strong as she is large, but apparently she can still smash a castle wall into rubble, so I'm not sure I get that one.

3. Dawn tells Buffy she thinks of Willow as like a mother to her. This creates suggested hurt feelings in Buffy.

4. Another reality is introduced Willow has access to. There are five alien female entities inhabiting it. They seem connected to mega-witch Willow in some way. Willow can disconnect her body from her essence by going there. More on those entities HERE (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=32637)

5. Buffy thinks of the new slayer Satsu as the most powerful of the new group. Satsu is humble about the assessment.

6. Buffy didn't leave the scythe on the top of the bus. She's still got it, and she brings it out when she needs it.

7. The slayer-witches can create a magic mirror thing which will reflect energy.

8. Buffy defines her rules of engagement concerning human enemies and demon enemies.

"Kill any demons you see. Humans, you go for the wound, unless they get stupid."

9. Inferior magic is referred to as a light show (done twice.)

10. Willow can heal human injuries. Even serious ones.

11. Ethan Rayne is killed by a military member of the Twilight organization to keep Buffy from learning too much.

[alexa]

I'm wondering if Tales of the Vampires is canon. If it is then Xander spent a year about with Dracula as his man servant until Buffy found him.. kinda interesting.. or I'm just over thinking :p

[nerd4hire]

Here's another one. Joss is listed as one of the writers on Long Night's Journey, but if you believe that one is canon you also believe the Gypsy curse was meant for another vampire, not Angel.

The difference between Long Night's Journey, Tales or the vampire, Tales of the slayers, and Buffy Season 8 is not only is Joss taking an open, active organizational role in Season 8, but he has openly proclaimed it canon. That's something he didn't to for the Tales stories, or LNJ.

You might be able to make a better case for Fray as canon, because not only was that totally his baby, but he has openly acknowledged the need to fix the discrepancies between Fray and BTVS. He has also taken from Fray and given to Buffy in the case of the scythe. In other words he's saying what happens in the one affects what happens in the other.

Here's what Joss says on Canon.

"Canon is key, as is continuity. If you are massive nerd. Which I am. I believe there's a demarcation between the creation and ancillary creations by different people. I'm all for that stuff, just like fanfic, but I like to know what's there's an absolutely official story-so-far, especially when something changes mediums, which my stuff seems to do a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffyverse_canon

Edit

Oh, and here's one I forgot to add to the list above - Xander wears ducky pyjammas

[Whistler]

7. The slayer-witches can create a magic mirror thing which will reflect energy.

You really think they created that mirror? I figured it was just a regular mirror. Xander said "Magic. It's all done with mirrors." I just got the feeling by that and the look of it that it was just a regular mirror.

[nerd4hire]

They don't know what going to come through that portal when they open it. All they know is Amy is a powerful witch. They appear prepared to deflect large amounts of energy.

From a canon point of view what I specifically meant was Buffy's crew of girl witches, appear to have significant power. They're not just floating pencils.

Hang on though, I'll post pics, and show you what I mean.

Edit

OK. Here ya go. You tell me if it really is all done with mirrors. Here they are preparing for the portal to open.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SlayWitchesPrepare.jpg

Here they are reflecting the energy bolt blasting through the portal.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SlayWitchesReflect.jpg

[Whistler]

I wasn't taking Xander literally about all magic being about mirrors, i just thought that one part was just a normal mirror used to reflect w/e was being sent at them

[nerd4hire]

Well, there's the picture right above your post. If it's a mirror, what's holding it up? Doesn't look like any mirror I've ever seen. What are they preparing for in the picture above that. Is that a "holding up the mirror" exercise? ;)

[CharmedSlayer85]

What I'm wondering though is what exactly gives a witch it's power. Is it research? Cause why is it that Tara has been studying magick since she was a child, but didn't come close to having the power that Willow had before she went evil. Why is it that Amy has also been studying longer than Willow but yet Willow still had more power than Amy before she went evil. I understand now that Willow going evil is really what gave her the power she has now, because the magick is inside her now which is part of the reason she can never quick using magick, however even before she went evil she was incredibly powerful, more powerful than people who've been studying longer and harder. Even Amy mentioned that people have to study twice as hard to get only half as good. So again I'm wondering what is it exactly that gives a witch their power? Like even Jonathan who was basically a studying warlock for a while is considerably very weak by warlock standards. Also how come we've never seen a powerful warlock on the show...I should be that warlock

[alexa]

Some people are naturally gifted silly.

Anyways the mirror thing didn't bother me.. reminds me of "The Witch"

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Well, there's the picture right above your post. If it's a mirror, what's holding it up? Doesn't look like any mirror I've ever seen. What are they preparing for in the picture above that. Is that a "holding up the mirror" exercise? ;)

In the first picture, they're preparing to open the portal. Notice the color of the glowing ball and the color of the portal itself. Also, the clothing colors of the witches match in the two pictures, even though the drawings are slightly different in the second.

The mirror is a parabolic reflector (like the reflector in a flashlight or a parabolic antenna, designed to focus reflected radiation to a single point rather than allowing it to scatter,) mounted on a wooden carriage similar to what would be used for a small catapult - the frame and wheels are clearly visible. Actually, considering the communications equipment available to the team, it may even have originally been a parabolic antenna.

[nerd4hire]

You're right of course. I had it completely turned around in my head, like the mirror was the portal. Believe it or not, I didn't see the wooden frame until you just pointed it out to me. I had it stuck in my head that the two witches behind the portal were the ones responsible for the activity. Nevertheless the main point stands. You have witches capable of opening portals, which according to Get It Done requires some expertise and power. My point is Buffy's girl witches have power.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Certainly, and they're referred to as "apprentice witches." In "Get It Done," Willow specifically stated that she had no idea how to open a time-space portal, and only succeeded by raw power - using a battering ram instead of a key, so to speak. Now the apprentices are doing it with relative ease. Either they have a great teacher (Willow or someone we haven't yet seen,) or these girls have exceptional natural talent.

[nerd4hire]

Yeah, portal opening is confusing. I think it needs it's own thread. I'll open one.
Feel free to join me HERE (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?p=443294#post443294), as I seek help in sifting through the mythology.

[nerd4hire]

Issue # 5

1. There are underground (literally) societies of Demons which do not appear to be necessarily locked to a hellmouth (dimensional transfer), or sewer society. The name of Buffy Summers is known to these "under-communities".

2. More fuel for the "Are the Tales of the Slayers Comics/TPBs canon?" debate.

We see an image of the chain of slayers going back in time. They are The Primitive, and a number of slayers from Tales of the Slayers. So if Joss specifically requested them then, yeah, it would seem to suggest Joss considers Tales of Slayers canon. However, there's a new artist on this issue. Georges Jeanty was Joss's hire. In the letters section I get the impression the Dark Horse editor is suggesting the new artist is his hire, and seems to be some kind of Dark Horse contract guy. So, how do we know the Tales of the Slayers slayers in The Chain aren't just something Dark Horse snuck in to add a new layer of credibility to a series which as of yet hasn't been universally accepted as canon.

3. There are cheesy TV commercials (they appear to star Andrew and Vi) seeking Chosen girls. Seeing as Rona was supposed to be in this one, I'm going to assume the recruiter/trainer girl is Rona.

[nerd4hire]

In Buffy 5, The Chain, we we see this image.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SlayerChain.jpg

I think it's significant.

The image portrays the unknown slayer flashing back along the slayer line. Some of the slayers shown originate in the Dark Horse comic/TPB Tales of the Slayers.

So the question becomes "Does this automatically transfer canon status to Tales of the Slayers"?

There's always been a good case for "Tales" as canon. Joss Whedon writes a couple of the stories. Mutant Enemy writers write the other stories. Although, to my knowledge it's never been outright stated Joss was in total charge of the project it was presented in a way that implied Joss's control.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it. There's nothing in Tales of the Slayers, that really contradicts what we already know about the Buffyverse.

However, there may be a problem with the precedent of allowing what we see in Buffy 8 to establish canon status on an auxilary work.

If the same thing happens with Tales of the Vampires some interesting things become canon. As was mentioned previously. Xander spent a year as Dracula's lackey. Vampires can shrink with age. A vampire can walk in the daytime if you replace it's heart with silver.

What if we see an image of Hellboy in the background, in a future issue of Buffy 8? Does it then become canon the Buffyverse, and the Hellboyverse are connected?

There's a disturbing entry in Wikipedia concerning the upcoming IDW maxi-series Angel: After the fall. The consensus seems to be that series will be considered canon. The previous IDW Angel comics were not considered canon. Wikipedia tells us a character from the previous non-canon Angel series will appear in the upcoming canon one. They suggest this now transfers canon status to what we previously thought of as non-canon.

Up until this point, what has always added power to the whole idea of a canon Buffy is the idea Whedon is in control of what is and isn't canon. Is he losing that control? Will the line between what is and isn't canon in the Buffyverse become so fuzzy we can no longer distinquish what Buffy canon is?

[Bored of the Dead]

My thoughts are actually quite simple on this.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter what is canon and what is not. Do you enjoy the comics?
If the answer is 'yes' then thats all that matters.
I would then, until something truly contradicts something that you have lasting sleepless nights over, simply enjoy it all for what it is.

[nerd4hire]

And that of course is one guy's opinion.

For those of us who do find it worthwhile to consider the issues of canon as the Comics affect them, I've been thinking about something.

I wish there were a way to get the writer's original scripts. Like in the last issue wouldn't it be interesting to know if Joss specifically named Rona as the girl working with the Watcher recruitment arm, or Vi as the girl in the commercial? I'd really like to see something in Joss's hand describing the line of slayers from Tales of the Slayers. I'd like to know for sure if it was Joss, or if it was something Dark Horse added.

[Bored of the Dead]

And that of course is one guy's opinion.



Which, interestingly, is as valid as an opinion as any other you get here.

If I read one of the many Buffy novels that have been written and the story is set, say, season 3. By the end of the book Giles is dead, for instance, and there's no resolution to this and its not part of a Trilogy or anything, then I see a major issue.

The writers of these comics, books and other stuff generally have some knowledge of the shows and maintains quite an accurate(though admittedly not perfect) hold on things, until Whedon or someone else who has 'canon status' makes up some rule or different way of doing something.

Just class it all as 'Canon' then you can spend alot more of your time doing other things.

If you come across something that does contradict something else in this, post it here and I'll work a way out of the situation that should make things easier for you.

I'm here to help:)

[Black Eye Guy]

I think what’s Canon and what’s not is important. If something is canon it would make it more likely that I'd be interested in it.

But I don't think including a character from one of the other comics automatically makes that comic canon. Like the character in the Angel comic, if he starts talking about stuff that’s in the other comic then it becomes more complicated, but I think we should just take it as a brand new character.

It seems like Joss is very much in control of the Buffy comic, I say he would have agreed to which slayers go into that pic.

The Angel comic is more complicated, cuz there’s different people saying different things about how canon it?

[nerd4hire]

Which, interestingly, is as valid as an opinion as any other you get here.

And who said it wasn't.

Here's the way I see it. Joss says canon is important to him. By this we take it to mean he will provide canon stories where the continuity should remain consistent. It doesn't always, but it should. So to us it's black and white. There is such a thing as Buffy canon, and Joss let's us know what is, and isn't.

Other franchises don't have this attitude. Take Doctor Who for example. You can go to Doctor Who forums and find find Admins getting angry at members for saying stuff like "How can such and such happen here, when back in this episode, radio play, movie, or book this contradictory thing happened." You're just not supposed to notice that sort of thing. They want you to approach Doctor Who pretty much the way you would like us to approach Buffy.

It's not going to happen with Buffy though. There is a Buffy canon, and the parts within it are supposed to match up. They don't always, (these are called continuity errors) but they're supposed to. It's supposed to be a series of long continuous stories where one thing affects another within the Buffy/Angelverse.

[alexa]

In Buffy 5, The Chain, we we see this image.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SlayerChain.jpg

There's a disturbing entry in Wikipedia concerning the upcoming IDW maxi-series Angel: After the fall. The consensus seems to be that series will be considered canon. The previous IDW Angel comics were not considered canon. Wikipedia tells us a character from the previous non-canon Angel series will appear in the upcoming canon one. They suggest this now transfers canon status to what we previously thought of as non-canon.

Up until this point, what has always added power to the whole idea of a canon Buffy is the idea Whedon is in control of what is and isn't canon. Is he losing that control? Will the line between what is and isn't canon in the Buffyverse become so fuzzy we can no longer distinquish what Buffy canon is?

Wikipedia is problematic because it can be edited by anyone. So we could go in and change that to say 'it may or may not be canon' ;) There's a scandal over here in Australia (it's an election year) because people in the Prime Minister's office have been changing the details of certain events to suit themselves.

But anyway your post seems very post modern N4H, lol reminds me of being at university. Everything means something, or everything means nothing, and it's all the same, etc. Still I also think finding out what is canon is important to the continuity of the Buffyverse, it's something not many series have. And this doesn't mean we're loosing sleep over it ;)

Also I kept that image of the slayer line in the quote because I noticed something while rereading the comic the other day. The scythe (I forget it's proper name) is only featured with slayers after the first, and not with the Buffy decoy.

[nerd4hire]

There's a guy who created a scanner (http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/) that discovers who's been editing what Wikpedia articles. Click Here (http://wired.reddit.com/wikidgame/) for some of the edits which have been made by people with questionable motives.

I haven't invested the time to figure out how to work it yet. One of these days I will though. I want to find out if it's IDW comics who are making that claim their old non-canon comics are suddenly going to become canon when Angel: After the Fall comes out.

But trust me you're preaching to the converted if you're saying Wikipedia articles should be taken with a grain of salt.

My point in mentioning the Wikipedia claim of new found canon status attributed to non-canon stuff is it's something worth noticing just in case it starts to become a trend.

[nerd4hire]

I'm going to try something different this month. I'm going to try not to say anything controversial, and to back claims up with illustrations, so I don't screw up.

***

Faith and Wood wind up in Cleveland after Sunnydale. Faith refers to Wood as her ex. They can still make contact by phone.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithRobinPhone.jpg

We see more slayer gizmos. They appear to like to rappel. That bridge illustrated below is an actual bridge in Cleveland.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithRappels.jpg

There are now officially Vampire kids in the Buffyverse.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithVampireKids.jpg

Another thing that's official now. Giles is the Watcher's council now. He appears to have custodial power over what appears to be their sizable financial wealth. (Edit This is contradicted in later issues. Apparently the slayer operation is not financed by the Watchers. We still have no good estimate of how much wealth is in the Watcher organization, or even how much of what might there, Giles has access to.)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithGilesWatcher.jpg

There's another phrasing for the amount of slayers Buffy created in Chosen. "About two thousand". Some are problems.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithGilesNewSlayers.jpg

The first character who identifies himself as a warlock appears in the Buffyverse. (Or did Ethan Rayne. I'm not 100% sure.) Such a mystical personage can work for Buffy's new nemesis, The Twilight.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/LadyGenevieveIrishWarlock.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/TwilightBook.jpg

This one might be useful to future fanfic writers. Xander still has his Sunnydale Swim Team Tshirt.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/XanderSwimTeam.jpg

OK, now this one's important. I'm going shout it in bold so at least one person will hear me.

FAITH IS NOT GAY! Unless Lady Genevieve Savidge, or some other hotty turns her, in the future, she's not even bisexual.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithnotGay.jpg

[Rowan Hawthorn]

There are now officially Vampire kids in the Buffyverse.

Actually, has been since the Annoyin--- er, Anointed One.


The first character who identifies himself as a warlock appears in the Buffyverse. (Or did Ethan Rayne. I'm not 100% sure.)

Only thing I remember from Ethan on the subject is his referring to Giles and himself as "a couple of old mystics," in "A New Man."

[nerd4hire]

Oh right, the "Annoyin--- er, Anointed One". There was a thread here a while ago where they were arguing about vampire kids in the Buffyverse, so I posted that for them. I actually don't remember what their issue was. I kind of skimmed through it.

[goldenboy]

Xander at one point claimed to be a warlock (er, um...man-witch, heh).

[nerd4hire]

Issue # 7

Faith has been taught sophistication by Giles to the point she can blend in at a blueblood ball. It's another talent she now has.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithBlueblood.jpg

Season 8 Faith is still wrestling with her conscience.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithConscience.jpg

I always thought of Faith as Death Metal, but apparently she's into Amy Winehouse. I guess she could be playing a part, but I didn't get that impression.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithAmyWinehouse.jpg

Faith has an alias - Hope Lyonne.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithHopeLyone.jpg

Faith tells Lady G a story about her mom and dad. She's in her alias, but one suspects there's truth behind the story. She mentions her mom's drunkeness which we know from Enemies is true of Faith's mom. The thing is we don't know anything about Faith's real dad, but she insinuates as her alias her dad may as well have been a ghost, meaning (by my interpretation) he was never around.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithDad.jpg

[Angel's vision]

Sounds to me like she has bitten off quite alot and has to chew very carefully!

The ending was very much Joss leaving you guessing and I have a feeling Faith is gonna need to remember Angel's words more than ever as she'll face a challenge
to her redemption.

[alexa]

Yeah it's almost like you need Angel to pop in at some stage with Faith stories. I suppose that wont be happening though :(
I think her Dad might be dead.. but not around is a good guess also. I've heard of Amy Winehouse but don't know if I've heard her stuff before.. what's it like?

[goldenboy]

To me, Amy Winehouse is basically 60s soul music. Really pretty retro, but with kind of modern vocal flourishes mixed in.

I can see Faith getting into that. I imagine her being into garage rock/punk stuff too.

[goldenboy]

Always wondered what band was playing on Faith's boom box in Graduation Day, Pt 1 (right before the big Faith/Buffy smackdown). It was by Spectator Pump (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=71800361) (Sunday Mail)

[nerd4hire]

Another character is introduced to the Buffyverse. Giles describes him as a "freelancer". He's a dwarf in possession of what appears to be a mystic hammer (the hammer of Hamner). This introduces Giles connection to mercenary mystical beings other than witches and warlocks in his home country and the idea they can work together.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/TrafalgarHammerofHamner.jpg

Another one of Faith's favorite bands

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithStoneRoses.jpg

There was a thread here posing the question, does Faith get the slayer dreams. For the time period of this comic series at least...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithDreams.jpg

Speaking of slayer dreams...the movie ties them to puberty, but I don't think BTVS ever did. Another thread here questioned the possibility of pre-pubescent slayers. That doesn't seem possible now.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Slayerdreams.jpg

OK so I thought the question concerning the funding of Buffy's army was settled in a previous issue. I thought it was Watcher money. Apparently I could be wrong.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/BuffyFunding.jpg

Remember when Anya said a witch had to be at a certain level to teleport? The Warlock Roden is at that level, so he also is a character worth noting for canon value.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/RodinTeleport.jpg

Teleporting can make you puke.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/BuffyPuke.jpg

[nerd4hire]

Oh wait a minute now. I missed one from last issue. If Roden refers to Buffy as "the last of the first", where does that fit Faith in? This adds support to the argument we sometimes hear that the slayer line passed back to Buffy as a result of Willow's resurrection spell in the Bargaining.

But on to issue # 4.

The thing I noticed about No Future for You regarding the canon of the Faith character was there wasn't so much anything new as stuff was highlighted, and expanded upon. I've heard the suspicion before that Faith has daddy issues, but Vaughan makes it clear. She says of the Mayor "He might have been a snake, but he wasn't a dog", and later, "Everybody thinks he was, like, exploiting me, or whatever, but that's not how it felt...Even today it's hard not to look back at my time with that guy, and feel anything but loved"

As was already mentioned Faith gives her alter-ego Hope a Father who is always away, and doesn't care. Faith sees a little of herself in the way Gigi has latched onto Roden as a father figure.

I think she learned from the experience. Through her empathy with Gigi Faith has a self-revelation.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithGigirevelation.jpg

At the end of the story Faith suggests she is going to direct her life to helping troubled slayers. Giles suggests they team up, and it goes like this.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithandGiles.jpg

In other words, Faith as she is now can accept Giles as a partner, but not as a father figure.

Speaking of Giles, there's a statement of hard feelings existing between Giles and Buffy. The message board chatter I'm picking up seems to feel it goes back to the disagreement between the two in Season 7.

Regardless of the origins, as it stands now Giles and Faith are banged around, beat up, and together as equal partners.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithandGilestogether.jpg

Chalk up another human kill for Faith. She kills Gigi, but it's pretty much an accident.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FaithkillsGigi.jpg

And Giles too. He kills Roden. This one's no accident.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/GileskillsRoden.jpg

Blows his head clean off.

Faith didn't accept the passport and the pension offered her as part of the deal to off Gigi, but I'm going to assume it's there if she needs it.

The Big Bad of Season 8 is introduced. He, She, It's called Twilight. Discussion and a pic HERE (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=35196)

[The Chosen]

Just outta curiousity, how did Gigi die exactly? Like a play-by-play please.

- TC

[nerd4hire]

Check out the preview HERE (http://www.popcultureshock.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-season-8-9-preview/42969/)

That sets it up. Faith and Gigi continue to fight. Faith tries to make Gigi see she's being used by Roden. Gigi won't have any of it, and just gets more angry.

Here's the final blow.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/faithvsGigi1.jpg

Leading to the accident.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Faithvsgigi2.jpg

and the death of Gigi.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Faithvsgigi3.jpg

[Allycat]

Out of curiosity, will AAtF events also get posted in the Canon Watch??? Or will it get its own Canon Watch?

[nerd4hire]

Well...to be honest, I do this one out of fannish affection, and a fanatic belief in the canon of Buffy Season 8. I therefore want to share that with the membership so they have access to information on the main points of canon whether, or not they can get to the actual comic. The hope is people who want to discuss issues of canon elsewhere on the board have access to the basic developments in S8.

Here's the problem. I personally don't feel any of that for A:ATF. I just don't feel inspired to put forth the effort necessary to keep a canon thread for it up to date.

If you want to do one. Go ahead. If you can keep it up to date 2 months in a row, I'll stake it.

[GATEGOD]

[QUOTE=nerd4hire;465815]

I actually felt bad that Gigi died :*( after all she was just listening to that creep Roden.
Who giles managed to kill almost instantly ... yea. Still glad it happened to him.
But Gigi's death was so sad, not just because she died but because Faith killed her, and she wasn't even trying to.
:cry:
Everything bad tends to happen to Faith, and she never means to really do half of the things she does.
Killing the guy in season 3 .. accident, killing gigi..accident.
Well... then she killed everyone after the accident in season 3 lol, but still it all started because of accidents.
Really sad, atleast now she's going to try and help people like herself. : king :
Hope that doesn't take away anything that makes her cool and 'Faith like'

-

One thing I don't get is why Buffy was such a b$%ch and just jumped to the conclusion that Faith had turned again, they did fight side by side at the end of season 7, what changed??

[greetings]

Thanks so much for posting this. I can't get the comics, and I've been really wanting to know the basic points of what's being going on since I heard Joss said it counted as canon. I felt like an unworthy-fan not knowing, and this was really helpful and concise. Cheers!

[sosa lola]

I, too, am only passionate about BtVS. I still read After the Fall, but I'm not as passionate about it as S8.

[nerd4hire]

As we know, Willow can fly now. She can also handle a passenger. She can teleport with at least 2 passengers, I think, because Buffy says "teleport again" which I'm guessing refers to her and Satsu from the Twilight stronghold in an earlier issue. We know Amy can at least do onesies.

Buffy doesn't like the flying with Willow thing, even though she rappels out of helicopters. Is this because she doesn't feel in control, or because she doesn't trust Willow? It's an interesting question, I think, because the theme of this issue is kind of a lies and betrayal thing.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/BuffyWillowflying.jpg

Willow and Buffy meet a new character named Robin. Not Wood, this one's a girl. It's going to take a little explaining and a few frames to get you up to date on this one.

Dark Horse (the publisher of the comic) ran a competition at their MySpace page. It was an essay competition based on the topic, "How Buffy Changed Your Life". The prize was having a character written into the comic based on the person who's life was changed. The winner was a guy who's wife was being taken over by schizophrenia about the same time she was discovering Buffy.

OK, so Willow and Buffy fly to a location where a girl is sitting in front of a hovel. They are there to see a demon named Sephrillian. He "walks between worlds. Reality tends to buckle around those guys." Sephrilian's thing seems to be time. Past, present, and future can happen simultaneously around Sephrilian. Willow is more sensitive to it, and linear time becomes less linear to her just by being in the general area. Sephrillian is in the hovel. It's bigger on the inside a la Doctor Who.

Robin (who is based on the contest winner's wife Robin) is what's called a Minder. Her plight in the comic has similarities with the real Robin's, real world schizophrenia. Willow describes a Minder like this.

Any unstable reality field is potentially dangerous, even cataclysmic, so someone has to watch over it.

Also...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Robintheminder1.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Robintheminder2.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Robintheminder3.jpg

Here's one that's nothing to do with canon, but I think it's interesting. Willow and Buffy enter the shack, and descend a giant staircase. Buffy wonders why there are no escalators to Hell. As they descend Buffy muses over a wisecrack she delivered to Robin. She says if the time loop gets loopy again she's going to change that wisecrack. Willow replies, "Ah...Spirit D'escolier". I think they spelled it wrong, but here's the Wikipedia definition.

L'esprit de l'escalier (literally, stairway wit) is a French term that describes the predicament of thinking of the right comeback too late.

It's been mentioned earlier that Dawn has grown into a giantess. This was done with magic, and has something to do with her losing her virginity. It also concerns a college relationship she had with someone called Kenny who we are told is something called a Thricewise. We get a look at what Kenny actually looks like.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/PictureofKenny.jpg

Up until now Willow hasn't been able to restore Dawn to her real size. Dawn has been keeping a secret. Willow needs to know the truth of what happened or she can't get a fix on what kind of magic was used. Here's Dawn's secret.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/KennysRoommate.jpg

Dawn lost her virginity to Kenny the Thricewise's college roommate. His name was nick. That's canonically significant, I guess. He was a bad boy, played in a band type. Xander makes a crack about Parker Abrahms; letting Dawn know her sister was no better. Apparently Dawn didn't know that story.

In this issue they switch back and forth from the Buffy and Willow story to the Dawn and Xander story.

Buffy and Willow meet Sephrilian.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Sephrilian1.jpg

We learn a new word. Tichajt - means one of the demon elite.

Notice he has those four screens on his tail.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Seprilian2.jpg

Sephrillian says...

All my faces are there to see, but you humans...you have too many

It says that in reference to the fact Willow and Buffy have been lying to each other. They have been showing multiple faces.

Sephrilian also says...

Lies, delusions gross simplifications...these are what make mankind. No fault in it; your brains could not contain the horrible beauty of total awareness. You run from it, as from a predator. You escape.

So is the human mind more complex than the demon mind in the Buffyverse, or more simple. I can't figure it out, but I suspect some important philosophical point is being made there.

What are the specific deceptions Sephrilian is speaking of here you ask.

First of all, remember how Buffy won't tell Willow where the money is coming from to finance the slayer army? Here's where it comes from...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SlayerrobSwissbank.jpg

Buffy gets caught lying a second time here, and must admit she led the raid on the swiss bank. She refers to it as a victimless crime. She says it's all insured, and references the fact a lot of old nazi loot is stored in Swiss banks. Buffy appears to be lying, not just to Willow, but to herself.

Willow's deception is different. She has been keeping Buffy from Kennedy. The excuse she tells Buffy is there's a rift between Kennedy and Willow. Something about a mystical death experience Kennedy had. That apparently is kind of true, but the real reason Willow is keeping Kennedy away from Buffy is she still feels guilty about connecting Tara to Buffy. She believes no good can come from such a connection.

There are also glimpses into Willow and Buffy's pasts and futures.

Willow's

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/WillowandSnakeWoman.jpg

Buffy's

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/InjuredBuffy.jpg

There appears to be debate as to whether or not the Willow with the snake woman scene is from Willow's future or past. I direct them to this post from the episode discussion thread.

Edit
Joss Whedon has since suggested it is Willow's past.

Buffy-Boards - View Single Post - Discussion of Episode 8:10 Released 01/02/07 (Dark Horse) (http://buffy-boards.com/showpost.php?p=473061&postcount=57)

But continuing on with the canon stuff...

In the process of seeking the truth from Sephrilian Buffy has revealed all her secrets. Sephrilian threatens to share the secrets with its demon brethern.

It's Slaytime.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Slaytime.jpg

I guess what's happening in the above graphic is up for interpretation, but to me Willow seems to have created a magic weapon and put it in Buffy's hands. She did something similar when Buffy was rescuing Willow from the Twilight base in an earlier issue. This looks to be a new trick the two of them can do.

This issue ends with Buffy and Willow walking away in separate directions. So now there's a rift between Buffy and all of Willow, Giles, Faith, and Dawn. Buffy is steadily finding herself more alone. You can perhaps add Spike and Angel to that list. I'm not sure how the timeline of the 2 verses works out, but at some point Andrew convinced Angel and Spike Buffy is with the Immortal.

[nerd4hire]

I need to bump this thread to the next page, so it won't load as slow with new pics in the next issue. So I don't know...somebody discuss something with me for a few posts.

Now that you've had a chance to get used to it, do you have any problems accepting the comics as canon?

In other discussions on the board, do you find yourself factoring in occurrences from the comics to adjust understanding on storylines and characters?

Of Buffy Season 8 and Angel: After the Fall, does one or the other feel more canon-y than the other, even though you know they both are?

[Keanoite]

Ok I'll play

I see season 8 as canon, as Buffy. AFT I take with a pinch of salt

[The Chosen]

I haven't even picked up an ATF comic but from an outsider's view I guess it's canon to me. Plus Joss said it was canon and whatever Joss the Boss* says we should listen. :)

* If there's a 'Stan the Man' Lee there can be a friggen 'Joss the Boss' Whedon lol.

[Lyri]

Season 8 is most definitely cannon to me. Joss is the one running the show, he's written most of the issues so far, and baically, it rocks so it's cannon, lol

Angel: After the Fall? eh. i just can't accept the storyline. i mean, come on! a psychic fish? Spike living in the playboy mansion? blah. i know Joss says it's cannon, and he's behind it, but i think that Lynch is trying way to hard to incorporate stuff from his other ATS comics into Season 6, thus making them cannon. like the fish. maybe when this arc is over, it'll get better, but right now, i'm not buying it. plus, the art sucks!!

[Clem Rocks]

Why can't you lot accept that After the Fall is canon? Joss says it's cannon, the other writers say it's cannon, the people that sell it say it's cannon, it's obviously cannon =|

[Lyri]

the basic reason is i don't like it. it doesn't seem like something the gang would do and i don't like the story line. i think it's because Joss isn't the one behind the wheel, it doesn't even seem like he's giving directions. which makes me feel that it's not really Joss' work.

[VisionGuy]

I accept the fact that Angel After the Fall is canon. I just think that they ruined everything. There's so much more that could have been done with the way the series ended. Instead we get AI in Wonderland with the talking fishies, the skank sluts at the mansion, and the X-Men hidden in the factory.

[nerd4hire]

Anyway, the question was...

Of Buffy Season 8 and Angel: After the Fall, does one or the other feel more canon-y than the other, even though you know they both are?

It's not really about the fact A:AtF is canon. It's about the way you might feel in spite of that fact. Apparently some people feel the same way about Buffy Season 8. They know it's canon, but they just don't connect with it as such. I personally am not one of those people BTW. Not with B-8 anyway.

[VisionGuy]

Anyway, the question was...



It's not really about the fact A:AtF is canon. It's about the way you might feel in spite of that fact. Apparently some people feel the same way about Buffy Season 8. They know it's canon, but they just don't connect with it as such.

Well my answer is that Buffy feels more canon to me than Angel does. I thought my dislike for After The Fall made that clear.

[nerd4hire]

I'm thinking the big introduction into canon for 8.11 is more conceptual than literal. We're familiar with the concept of actions having consequences in Buffy. It's often introduced in a supernatural context, but it's there.

In this issue Buffy wrestles with the idea her gifting of power to so many girls may have consequences. She begins to doubt the moral righteousness of her action. More specifically though the concept introduced clearly into canon here is this one...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/narration1.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/narration2.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/narration3.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/narration4.jpg

This might be important. I think it's always been clear the experience of being slayerfied is emotionally powerful, but I don't think it's ever been shown with this kind of detail

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/slayerfication.jpg

Knocks Satsu on her butt. Makes her smile and cry.

We've seen criminal slayers before - Faith, Fray, Lady Genevieve Savidge, Buffy herself robbed a Swiss bank last issue - but now we have another. Simone Doffler and her gang of thieves, at least one other of which is a slayer.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SimoneDoffler2.jpg

Dawn drinks. At least in Scotland she does. Apparently she's legal drinking age there. She can be forgiven here though. She has a weight taken off her shoulders after telling Xander her secret last issue. She's happier now they tell us. She can get it into party mode now.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DawnDrunk2.jpg

OK, I don't hear anybody else making a fuss about this, but my opinion - the below matters. I'll explain why after you see it.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Slayerpowerboosts.jpg

Want a good argument? Post a post suggesting there may be something significant about the way Buffy appears to rise stronger from her first death in Season 1, or after getting skewered in Chosen. For those one, or two who might agree with me, don't you think there may be another clue to the puzzle of slayer power boosts in the above?

As has been mentioned earlier, the new slayer, Satsu, is in love with Buffy. Through a process too intricate to show without posting 3 or 4 disconnected pages Buffy lets her down easy.

The best I can condense it down is with this...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/BuffyletsdownSatsu.jpg

Moving on though. As you may have gathered one of the main mysteries of Season 8 is who, is Twilight (the big bad). A number of clues are offered in this issue, but I won't bother getting into them, because we don't know which ones are red herrings, and which ones are real clues. It is the big mystery of the series so far though. That in itself is I believe canonically significant.

I will say this though...Twilight can fly.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/TwilightFlying.jpg

[alexa]

And he can fly through buildings without getting hurt.. break swords with his fist.. and in the above pic seems like he can't be decapitated (with that outfit on.. maybe.)

Also the pic you showed of Buffy looking at Satsu she's talking about her dream in Restless with the mud on her face. :D

[nerd4hire]

Good call on the mud scenes in Restless. What caught my eye though was the idea that although Satsu wasn't as fast as Buffy at that time she would be in the future. I don't think there's a clear explanation for that. As such I think it may be one of those things that can be used used as support in a suggestion of possible explanations as to how parts of the Buffyverse might work behind the scenes.

[alexa]

Yeah.. that talk has been around for a while. I remember when Faith fought the beast on Ats people wondered if Buffy was somehow absorbing Faith's slayer powers. Actually I'm still disappointed that Faith didn't get to recover and kill him, but that's beside the topic I guess.

For now I'm of the opinion that with experience and confidence you become a better slayer. Plus it was such a funny panel, very Joss. Buffy's really cool then 'ahhhh -splat' :p One of the few times I've laughed out loud in this season.

[nerd4hire]

Yes, can the slayer get power boosts? This has been a much debated topic, on this board at least. Here's a little more fuel to that fire, I think.

[Clem Rocks]

Yes, can the slayer get power boosts? This has been a much debated topic, on this board at least. Here's a little more fuel to that fire, I think.

Would the spell that helped Buffy kill Adam class as a power boost?

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Good call on the mud scenes in Restless. What caught my eye though was the idea that although Satsu wasn't as fast as Buffy at that time she would be in the future. I don't think there's a clear explanation for that. As such I think it may be one of those things that can be used used as support in a suggestion of possible explanations as to how parts of the Buffyverse might work behind the scenes.

There is actually some canonical support for that, though: Not only does Riley comment on Buffy's power increasing ("You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach."), throughout the series, we see it.

[Allycat]

I always assume that it's something akin to the Saiya-Jinn race from Dragonball. The heroes there, particularly the Saiya-Jinns face off against increasingly tougher opponents, but every time manage to win (if barely), they're a race of born fighters and every fight makes them a little bit stronger.

I think it's the same with Vampires and Slayers in the Buffyverse. The demon in them that grants them their power increases in strength after successful battles.

It's pretty common in this type of fiction, where the villains pose a physical threat. The writers try to come up with a bigger, bad-er, and stronger villain every season. Result is that the protagonist also has to get stronger.

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't know about the cant be decapitated thing, cuz if you look at their hands, Buffys are in a position where she's pulling the scythe towards his neck, while his are on the opposite side, pushing it away from him, which to me would mean that he's of equal or greater strength?

[nerd4hire]

Good point BEG. I actually noticed that later, but didn't think to go back to edit. I think I will now though, because that may be important.

Edit

Oh wait a minute now... It wasn't me who said that, at least not here. I may have on another thread.

[Lyri]

ok, i have a question...the cover for #16 has been released, as has the alternate cover for #15...where's the regular cover for #15? have i missed it?

[nerd4hire]

Will you settle for a best guess?

Dark horse has only released the cover officially up until # 14, near as I can figure. Georges Jeanty released the # 15 variant. Jo Chen released the # 16 official on her MySpace page.

Who's the # 15 artist for the official cover? Do we even know yet? Is it still Jon Foster?

[Lyri]

i think it's still Foster. it'd be stupid if he didn't finish off the arc.

[Allycat]

Yeah, it's still Jon Foster. Jo Chen posted the cover on her MySpace saying it's the one she's coming back with.

Expect DH to release the regular for issue 15 next month. Perhaps together with the cover for the 3rd TPB, which I'm guessing will also be by Jon Foster.

[nerd4hire]

OK so DH previewed the official Jon Foster cover for # 15 a couple of days ago, and I imagine you've seen it, but on to issue # 12 also released a couple of days ago.

The big story with # 12 as far as stuff introduced into canon is concerned is the one even mainstream media outlets such as the NY Times and ABC is talking about.

Buffy has a lesbian experience.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/BuffySatsu2.jpg

Joss Whedon says Buffy is not gay. She was just experimenting. Satsu claims to understand, and accept this. How true that is remains to be seen. Basically it goes like this. In earlier issues it is suggested Buffy is feeling lonely, and isolated in her role as leader of the slayer army. She laments early in the run of B8 she misses the sex. Her life consists of the company of Xander, ocassionaly Andrew, and hundreds of slayer girls. One of those girls appears who has sincere, romantic, girl on girl love for Buffy. Buffy has shown appreciation of her slayer skills, and fashion sense. Plus she's cute. Buffy has always been open minded to the whole lesbian thing, but last issue she attempted to discourage Satsu thoughtfully, based on her misgivings to the relationship, even disregarding the idea it's girl on girl. One thing apparently led to another after the events of 8.11, and the two slayers wind up in bed together here in 8.12. Whatever...one gets the impression it rocked Buffy's world a bit. Are those scratches on Satsu's back?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SatsuBuffybackscratches.jpg

(Sidebar: Buffy still has Mr. Gordo. He's dumped on the floor, amongst strewn undergarments.)

Also on the relationship front, a relationship between Xander and new slayer Renee continues to develop.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/XanderRenee.jpg

Giant Dawn sleeps in a barn when it rains.

Andrew looks after a group of slayers in Italy, but he will on occasion visit the Scottish castle when business requires it. In this issue Willow flies him there.

A cadre of Japanese, Gothic, Vampires are introduced. They have Draculaesque powers of transformation into mist, bees, wolves, and panthers. One at least (Kumiko) has the power of flight. It is not clear at this point if they all have the same powers, or if each has his, or her own individual set.

Willow is not, as her new super witch powers might suggest, invincible. She is vulnerable to sneak attack.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/WillowKumiko-1.jpg

A scene occurs which many are describing as hilarious. It takes place after the vampire gang raids the Scottish castle. First Xander, then Renee, then Andrew, then Dawn, then Willow break in on Buffy and Satsus' romantic tryst. So everybody knows now.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/StateroomSceneBuffyStyle.jpg

The vampire gang steals the scythe.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/StolenScythe.jpg

Something occurs towards the end of # 12 which is, I believe, more significant to Buffy Canon than the Buffy/Satsu romantic fling. It is important not just because of what happens, but the fact it's happening affects the way canon is perceived.

Dark Horse previously published an anthology of vampire tales called Tales of the Vampires. It took place in the Buffyverse. Joss Whedon wrote part of it, and appeared to have at least some organizational power over the rest. If you spoke of it as canon though, there would be a good chance you'd get an argument.

There is a story in TotV which tells of Xander living with Dracula for a year. Buffy takes him out of Dracula's castle. Here's a link to the actual story if you'd like to read it. Antique (http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/preview.php?theid=11-756&p=1). It isn't near the quality of Buffy Season 8.

Antique was written by Mutant Enemy writer Drew Goddard. Goddard also writes this Wolves at the Gate arc for Buffy 8. The 2 stories are connected. By making that B 8/TotV connection the feeling is Tales of the Vampires now becomes official Buffy canon.

OK so this is what happens. The Scoobs notice a similarity between the powers of the goth vampires, and the powers of Dracula. Xander is (according to Antique) still on good terms with Dracula so they send him to investigate. Renee goes along to keep him grounded, as Dracula still can have a mind control kind affect over Xander.

Here's a section of the final panel of 8.12.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/XanderDraculaMaster.jpg

[Lyri]

scratches on Satsu's back?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SatsuBuffybackscratches.jpg


i don't think they're scratches. if you look at the pannel on the top left of that page, where they're laying facing each other, you can see the 'scratches' on the pillow Satsu's lying on. i think it's her hair.

[nerd4hire]

Ah, OK. I see now from Rowan Hawthorn's posting in the discussion thread, they're braids. This is why I asked. I wasn't sure what they were.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/satsubraids.jpg

There is of course clear evidence of the wildness of the experience as well - the beads of sweat on their foreheads, the coupled expressions of 'Wow!".

[Black Eye Guy]

Andrew looks after a group of slayers in Italy, but he will on occasion visit the Scottish castle when business requires it. In this issue Willow flies him there.


I think that was Andrews first time to the castle? Cuz willow offers to give him the grand tour?

What about those things that are like 'Previously on' where it says whats happened so far. In this issue's one it Says Buffy has cut Giles off, thats a little different then just not talking to him?

[nerd4hire]

I think that was Andrews first time to the castle? Cuz willow offers to give him the grand tour?

Good point.

What about those things that are like 'Previously on' where it says whats happened so far. In this issue's one it Says Buffy has cut Giles off, thats a little different then just not talking to him?

You know...I stopped reading those. It never occurred to me they'd change, but you're right, they do. So, here's where we are right now then.

"The slayer population of the world has gone from two to nearly two thousand. Buffy and Xander have established a base in the highlands of Scotland where they continue to train Slayers, and command their forces around the world, building their defenses against new threats. Willow comes and goes; Buffy has cut Giles off; and Dawn's a giant. They've battled familiar foes, deranged zombies, and military goons, but only Buffy has faced the elusive new enemy apparently behind it alll; Twilight."

[Lyri]

I have a question. In 'Antique', Buffy goes to rescue Xander from Dracula, traking two new Slayers with her, Kira and an unnamed girl. Does anyone think they'll show up in this arc, or be referenced in anyway? It would definitely cement the Tales story into the canon of the verse.

[Allycat]

God, I hope they will. Kira was so cute!

[nerd4hire]

I want to go back to # 10 Anywhere But Here for a sec. There some stuff I feel needs to be emphasized or pointed out.

First why are people around the internet insisting on calling the demon Tichajt? I stand by my original claim. Its name is Sephrilian.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/sephrilianname.jpg

Tichajt is the name of the demon elite.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Tichajtname.jpg

On another thread someone was pointing out there is something in # 10 which could be interpreted as an inference to Fray and the part where Demons and Magic are banished from this earthly reality sometime between the present and the the future. That may be important as a Fray arc is coming up.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Deathofmagicanddemons.jpg

Also, notice "Hellmouths" are spoken of in the plural. I get the impression Sephrilian is speaking of more here than just the Hellmouths in Sunnydale and Cleveland. People bring up the subject from time to time of how many Hellmouths are there.

[Clem Rocks]

First why are people around the internet insisting on calling the demon Tichajt? I stand by my original claim. Its name is Sephrilian.

Because people don't pay attention

[nerd4hire]

Also, yes Alexa, I did notice Joss said the scene of Willow and the Snake lady was a flashback, not a flash forward. It's in an edit in the original post.

[nerd4hire]

Dracula

He's becoming a Buffyverse character so the question becomes what are the character qualities of Buffyverse dracula. There's some good material for debate here in 8.13, but I'll take a crack at guessing some stuff on Buffyverse Dracula.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DraculaOld.jpg

(OK, feel free to challenge my assumptions here if you've read 8.13, because I think it would be a mistake for those who haven't to assume any of this is clear-cut.)

Buffyverse Dracula is either old in his natural state, or he loses the will to maintain the magic that keeps him young as a result of his current depression.

He is depressed in 8.13. One gets the impression it has something to do with his loss of Xander as manservant in the Tales of the Vampire story Antique. Xander wrote Dracula letters after the events of Buffy versus Dracula in Season 5. Dracula is proud though, and will not admit he has any affection for Xander.

He drinks when depressed. Apparently he will eat food. He vomits cabbage.

Xander taught Dracula to ride a motorbike.

Dracula still refers to Xander as manservant.

Renee, and Dracula don't like each other. Dracula refers to her as a Moor.

In fact Dracula appears to have a kind of old world bigotry about him. He tells Xander his Moor can wait in the stables. He calls the Japanese vampire gang "Filthy yellow swine".

It's not clear how much actual brain control Dracula maintains on Xander. Xander appears to zone in and out of it.

It's not clear exactly what kind of affection each has for the other. Does it cross over into the almost romantic? It's not clear.

Dracula mentions the fact Season 8 Xander has lost weight, something readers have also noticed.

Andrew gives a little lecture to his slayer charges on Dracula's powers.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/AndrewDraculaLecture.jpg

Dracula explains where his special powers come from.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DraculasMagic.jpg

Dracula thinks he gave up the secret to his powers as a result of a gambling bout with the Japanese vampires. He was drunk. He claims he was cheated. He didn't know it had even happened until Xander told him about the gang using his powers. The event was foggy in his mind. Whatever. Dracula is angry now. He's off to Tokyo now to, as he puts it, bathe in their blood.

Here's the line-up I have of the Japanese Gothic vampires so far.

Toru - The leader.
Kumiko - Female. I think Dracula calls her a witch. Even Raidon doesn't want to mess with her. She can fly.
Raidon - The largest of the three. Appears muscular.

There's some clarification on Buffy's current sexuality preference.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/NotaDyke.jpg

And this is interesting. Apparently Willow has always had a curiosity concerning Buffy's sexual performance. She asks Satsu what she's like in the sack. The conversation continues.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/WillowCurious.jpg

Buffy had a slayer agent in Tokyo. Her name was Aiko. The vamps drained her of her slayer powers with the stolen scythe, and some sort of amulet, then Toru kills her.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/AikoZapped.jpg

The threat now is they will do the same to all the new slayers, or as Toru puts it "take the technology global".

[Clem Rocks]

Buffyverse Dracula is either old in his natural state, or he loses the will to maintain the magic that keeps him young as a result of his current depression.

I think that one might be a bit of both. He tells Butterfield to fetch him a razor which suggests his beard is real and affects the glamour, maybe if he didn't shave first, he would look young but with an old beard, also young Dracula has the same nails as old Dracula, just cut shorter, so i would say the glamour doesn't change all of him, maybe just his face.



Dracula also likes to feed Xander Mealworms and makes him wear manservant bloomers ;)

[nerd4hire]

First of all, time for an updated slayer death count.

The last one HERE (http://buffy-boards.com/showpost.php?p=464098&postcount=12), had it at three. Add two - Japanese slayer Aiko, and gulp Renee, takes it to five by my count. Who did I miss?

New Buffyverse magic. According to Dracula there's a spell called Carolina's Grasp which you can use to contain vampires such as himself who can alter their mass to mist. 2 grams of crimson powder, a sprig of dwarftwhistle, and some sea salt, then incant.

The Slayer crew capture one of the vampires' lackeys, and contain him in Carolina's Grasp. Buffy interrogates him on why his bosses want the scythe.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Planforthescythe2.jpg

The spell will be focused through a lens that sits atop the Japanese vampires private building. They seem to be wealthy.

Here's what you can do with a vampire contained in Carolina's Grasp (First pour some gas on him)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/CarolinasGrasp2.jpg

Speaking of magic. Willow seems to be going a little Harry Potter these days.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/WillowgoesHarryPotter2.jpg

We were led to believe the Satsu/Buffy romance thing would fade into the distance, but it keeps lingering. Buffy appears to be trying to protect Satsu by keeping her out of the main action (much as Willow seems to be doing with Kennedy). Satsu won't go for it. She tells Buffy "I'm not following your orders. Not this time. I'll see you on the battlefield Ma'am". To which Buffy muses...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SatsuStillSexy2.jpg

Some new info on Willow and teleporting. You remember Dawn's a giant right? When they attack the vampire lair they need a distraction, so Willow teleports Dawn from Scotland to Japan.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DawnTeleportedToJapan2.jpg

What I mean is, Willow's got the juice.

Stuff is happening in Xander-world too. The Xander/Renee romance is getting hot and heavy. They have their first kiss. All is going well, so of course this is going to happen...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DeathofRene2.jpg

[LIENDINGES]

THNX for the information, now I get it all a bit more ;)

[nerd4hire]

So Renee's dead. It's for sure. No, Willow doesn't heal her. Does that have canon implications? I don't know. We do know Willow can do massive quick healings, but Renee appears to be dead before Willow can get to her.

This much is canon though. Xander had a romance with a slayer. It ended when she was stabbed through the heart with the scythe. Don't you hate it when that happens?

Satsu is second in command in battle situations.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Satsu2ndincommand.jpg

We get some more info info on Kumiko, the Japanese, goth, vampire witch.

Full name: Kumiko Ishara.
Daughter of Kazuo.
Trained by Saga Visuki.

The last bit is interesting. It turns out Kumiko's teacher was also Willow's. She looks to be the snake woman we saw naked Willow with in Anywhere but Here. And she appears to have an agenda...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/SagaVisuki.jpg

Buffy does a Fray dive off what appears to be about a 30 story building, and possibly slays Kumiko.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/KumikoSlay2.jpg

I say "possibly", because this is the last we see of Kumiko. Top right.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Kumikofloatingaway.jpg

So, does she live to fight another day? I don't know. Are those 2 gold blotches dust, or something else? Who really knows, until they tell us for sure.

The rest of the vamps don't though. Buffy's final command "Slay em all".

Oh but I got ahead of myself there. Yeah, there's a big battle. Slayers against a vamp army. Many, if not all of them appear to have Dracula's power of changing shape.

It's a back and forth battle. Slayer's retreating, then Dawn turning the tide, by squashing vamps under her giant foot, then some sort of mega-bot, Dawnzilla turns up to wail on Dawn. Enter Andrew who has seen everything Godzilla to Anime. He instructs Dawn to remove the head. After a few robotic insults Dawn rips Mecha-Dawn's head off.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/MechaDawn.jpg

Ok, yeah, that bit's silly. Fun though.

In the meantime the vamps are setting up the giant dish to rob the slayers of their power using the scythe.

Back and forth though. The slayers regain the scythe.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/slayersgetscythe.jpg

Dracula knows how to stop the vamps from using the power they stole from him.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DracandWillow.jpg

You caught that right? The scythe is "bound with demon spirit". Whatever that means, I'd say it has importance as canon.

So Willow angles a reverse incantation of St. Augustine's curse through the portal. The Vampire's (possibly including Dracula) lose their morphing abilities, and are now easy slays.

As I said before, Buffy's final command...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Killemall.jpg

(No, that did not include Dracula. And did he also lose his morphing ability? I don't know.)

But why is Buffy's command of interest from a canon perspective? Just opinion maybe, but there seems to be a character transition happening with Buffy who as champion of the Hellmouth often appeared happy to just to get out alive, but as commander in chief of slayerforce now wants to scorch the earth.

Speaking of character transition... The Buffy/Satsu thing has been getting all these little hinting insinuations through the last 2 issues. Yeah Buffy's decided not to go that way, but she's still thinking about it. Satsu also has been thinking about it. She decides she wants to get away from the situation. She requests a transfer to head the Japan arm of slayerforce. Buffy agrees. So is that the end of it? I don't know. Joss says it's going nowhere, but does that mean nowhere unless...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/buffysatsureminisce.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Batsusecondround.jpg

Willow also has demons from her past to encounter.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Willowcallingsagavisuki.jpg

[TheHeartist]

Another lovely update for those of us without the means to buy all the issues. Cheers N4H!

So Satsu is going out of the story for a while? Or will it follow her activities in Japan do you think? It's a shame if she does go out of it, I like Satsu.

[nerd4hire]

Whedon has stated on more than one occasion words to the effect Buffy is at the age an open-minded young women like her might experiment, but she's not gay, nor is she going gay. I got the impression he was saying she's not even bisexual, really. If we take him at his word, I wouldn't expect to see Satsu again for some time. At least not with Buffy.

[UnKle]

N4H, I've just been reading your summary posts and they rock. I'm kind of having trouble following the comics but I like the way you sum up each issue. Kind of makes me go 'ooohhhhh, that's what happened, that's what that meant!'

Anyway, I hope you continue to do this because I'm depending on you now to decipher the current arc. lol

[nerd4hire]

Yeah, I was just reading your post over at the Time of Your Life # 2 Discussion thread UnKle. I sense your confusion on this current issue. Not to worry, I don't think you're the only one. In fact I include myself among the currently confused.

I think maybe the first thing we need before we begin Time of Your Life is background on Fray. Melaka Fray as you know by now is the future slayer Buffy will meet in the ToYL arc. Some of us are familiar with Fray from comics past. For those who aren't we'll get into some background on her.

There's a lengthy explanatory thread on Fray here - Fray in the Buffyverse (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=13348)

I'll give you some highlights.

Fray was originally an 8 issue comic Joss Whedon began before Chosen aired. It concerns a girl name Melaka Fray living hundreds of years in the future, in the slummed out, street level remnants of what was once Manhattan. It is now referred to in the story as Haddyn.

Melaka has recently discovered her slayer power, but she's got a problem, or three. The watchers have disappeared. She has no idea what this slayer power is all about. Her future era is not about the magic. In fact it seems vampires have only reappeared recently. They're called lurks now. The people of Fray's time are be pretty much clueless on lurks. They just think of them as these strange homeless people who live in the shadows of the under city.

Melaka has another problem. She has a twin brother named Harth. Harth got the slayer power of visions, and psychic connection to the slayer line. Melaka got the slayer strength. Those two halves make the whole of the slayers existing in Fray's time period.

Harth was killed in his youth by a particularly nasty lurk (vampire) named Icarus. It traumatized the young, and mystically unaware Fray. That was just the beginning. We later learn Harth had himself vamped. The vampire Harth becomes the slayer Fray's nemesis.

And if that wasn't enough here's how the story of slayer Fray, and her vampire brother ended when last we saw them.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/harthandmelaka.jpg

Luckily for Fray (or perhaps unluckily depending what we're talking about) a Demon appears in Fray's life, earlier in the story, and takes on her education as slayer. His name is Urkon. He is working under his own secret agenda for 2 demon overlords. He gives her the knowledge she needs to keep her head straight.

It almost didn't happen though. Urkon was having problem with management...

Urkon Discusses the Melaka Fray Situation With Demon Overlords Vrill and Boluz

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/UrkonVrillboluz.jpg

Under Urkon's tutelage Melaka learns the history of magic in the Buffyverse. More importantly in reference to what will happen in Time of Your Life, she learns the history of the last slayer, and her final battle.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/frayfinalbattleofslayer.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FrayFinalslayer.jpg

It's a rousing little yarn - Fray is. If you missed it, I'd recommend it 5 stars for your reading list. But here's the problem. The Fray story left more questions as to how the Buffyverse works than it offered answers. Examples...

If there are multiple slayers at the end of Chosen, why is there only one (well two halves) in the time of Fray?

Urkon gave Melaka the scythe. Where did he get it?

If there are no demons, or magic after the final battle of the final slayer, how does it all reappear at the time of Fray?

Who was the for sure final slayer in the final battle? (Actually ToYL appears to have already answered this one).

And why does any of this matter in reference to Time of Your Life? Some will tell you it doesn't. I disagree, and seeing as this is my thread ;) that's the version you'll get. But there's more.

Fray later turns up again in another comic. Actually it's a Dark Horse trade paperback. It is an anthology of stories concerning slayers. They were written by mutant enemy writers. Joss Whedon contributes a story showing Melaka chasing a six legged demon monkey. Spider monkey, she calls it. It knows about slayers, and about the scythe.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Gates1.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Gates2.jpg

Melaka's meeting the monkey was a result of a retrieval (theft) she was doing as part of her day job. Fray you see is also a professional thief.

She chases the monkey for hours. Finally it stops. And where it stops appears to have purpose.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Gates3.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Gates4.jpg

The monkey and the room will turn up again in Time of Your Life.

OK so there's some highlights to the background of Fray. Fray meets Buffy in Buffy 8, issues 16 through 19. The arc as I should have stated at the beginning, and you may have guessed if you didn't already know is Time of Your Life.

We can begin looking at Time of Your Life now if you like, but first I need a favor.

This page is getting kind of graphics intensive. It will already take a day to load for people with slow connections. If anybody stumbles in here could you post me into the next page, so we can start over. We'll need about 8, or 9 posts I think. Ask questions about Fray if you like. I rushed this post. I don't know how clear it all is.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

We can begin looking at Time of Your Life now if you like, but first I need a favor.

This page is getting kind of graphics intensive. It will already take a day to load for people with slow connections. If anybody stumbles in here could you post me into the next page, so we can start over. We'll need about 8, or 9 posts I think. Ask questions about Fray if you like. I rushed this post. I don't know how clear it all is.

(To the tune of "One Hundred Bottles of Beer On The Wall")
One little "push me!" post on the board...

[Mr. Pointy]

Bump bumpity bump bump :)

[Allycat]

Isn't posting just to get post count higher (in this case a thread's, and not a member's) illegal... or at least against the board rules? And now a moderator is asking us to? Tut-tut-tut.


On a more important side note. People with slow internet connections or older computer should change their setting for the number of posts per page to as low as possible. That will decrease the time it takes for a page to load. Also, you could consider using the least graphical board theme.

[nerd4hire]

Darn it Ally. I know you're at least mostly joking, because I know you're bright enough to see the difference between this and a normal thread. Nevertheless you put me in a position where I have to respond, because sooner or later some noodle is going to use what you just said in response to being told not to bump.

First of all, this is a staked thread. It isn't like a bunch of old forgotten threads are going to get bumped by short spammy posts to the top of the list distracting from current threads people post to get an actual response.

This is a reference thread. It's posted as a service to the board, to update members not able to keep up with the nuances of canon change presented in Buffy 8. We could of course alter the whole formatting of the thread. Offer it as HTML or something. That would not be viable though. The ability to respond is important here, because issues of canon are controversial, and everybody should have an opportunity to offer input. Also there are times when I'm just plain wrong, and I like to be corrected. Perhaps a blog format might be possible in the future. At present however, it's not.

This thread has never been idle. Even when people aren't responding it's still getting hits. People are using it to get information. It isn't a dead thread being bumped for vanity. To be honest it's a bit of a pain in the butt to do. If people stopped reading it, or stopped contacting me to tell me it's useful, I'd cheerfully unstake it, and let it slip to the bottom of the pile.

It's not the only reference thread on the board being periodically bumped. There's Buffy 8 Recaps, Whedonverse index, Whedon Watch, character and actor reference threads to name a few. Should all of those be killed rather than bumped?

So basically yeah. It's kind of Mickey Mouse when I have to ask for bumps to get to another page, but that's the way it has to be done until we can come up with a better alternative.

[Allycat]

It was meant as a joke. One that pointed out the potential risks, but a joke nonetheless. Don't get me wrong, I'm completely with you; I think this is a very important threat to have around!

And I'm certainly glad that this little post is bringing you a little closer to the next page ;)

[nerd4hire]

Not to worry, it gave me another chance to post. Oh and look...we only need one more. :)

[Allycat]

Well then, I am delighted to be able to do the honours... she's all yours now, take it away, N4H!

[nerd4hire]

Time of Your Life begins like this...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/frayvsBuffyFall.jpg

Buffy is confused as to who her opponent is there, but we who remember Joss Whedon's future slayer Melaka Fray know immediately who she is. We are not particularly concerned the two are falling from a building, because Fray has a signature move where she dives off buildings and bounces off the flying cars below.

Those who are not familiar with the slayer Fray can get some explanation from the post on the previous page, and the link embedded within that post.

For followers of canon one thing is immediately important regarding the reappearance of Fray. When we saw her last there were a number of discrepancies between the Fray story, and the last Buffy story we saw in Chosen. Joss Whedon has made several comments throughout the years promising to allign the two storylines. The biggest conflict between the 2 stories is the idea there are multiple slayers after Chosen, and 1 chosen one (well 2 halves) after Fray. That's the one most people want matched up. It's worth watching for that even if it doesn't happen. Personally, I expect it too.

Buffy is also worried about Dawn at his point. Something is happening to Dawn.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DawnAhhh.jpg

Dawn as you remember was a giant. We later learn this was only the first of three transformations. Here's the second one.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Dawncentaur.jpg

But back to Buffy. Time of Your Life will be a time travel arc. We will be zipping back and forth present to future. We learn the background concerning Buffy's sudden appearance in the future.

As we know from the previous issue Willow has contacted the demon/witchy/snake-lady thing Saga Visuki who apparently at one time was Willow's Sensei, mentor, tutor, whatever. On two occasions now Willow has expressed a certain shame and hesitance to speak on her relationship with S V, but we learn she has communicated to Willow a need to investigate something in New York. Once more in Buffy 8 something is happening concerning the scythe.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Willowtalksscythe.jpg

During the course of the council on how to deal with Willow's information Xander says something which I believe is important to the canon of his character. There has been criticism concerning Xander's blase reaction to Anya's death in Chosen. Something similar will happen in this council meeting concerning the death of Renee. Buffy in an effort to be understanding wants to leave Xander in Scotland thinking he needs time to deal with Renee's death. Here's how Xander responds.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/XanderReneeReaction.jpg

Nevertheless the decision is made for Xander to stay in Scotland, and look after slayerforce. He appears to agree with the decision. Willow, and Buffy jump on a plane to go to Manhattan. During the trip we get another hint concerning the financing of Slayerforce.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/BuffysFinanciers.jpg

The financing of slayerforce comes not from the theft of old, forgotten, Nazi loot alone. There are also investors. Buffy claims she must take a meeting with them in New York, but that may be a ruse of some sort, as we will see.

During the flight we also discover Willow has called ahead to have a group of slayers scout out the location they must investigate. One of these is Kennedy. We now learn the Willow/Kennedy relationship is still pretty snug.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/WillowKennedySnug.jpg

Kennedy runs her own group. Vi runs the New York squad. The two have been working together preparing for the visit of Buffy and Willow. There's lots of vampires in New York. Also spirits, dark mages, demons - you know, the usual. There are "mystical turf wars" Kennedy refers to the city that never sleeps as "vampire heaven".

The New York group also has a Wiccan squad. They have been looking for a mystical signature. They believe they have found it atop a high rise. The main players agree to all meet there.

Upon the day of the meeting however Buffy is late. There is a further hint as to a possible future significance to whoever Buffy is meeting with privately in New York. She dressed to the nines for the mysterious meeting. Some readers suspect a possible upcoming romance.

But let's back up, a sec. At the slayer meeting between Willow and Buffy, and the 2 slayer squads, Willow gave a brief lecture on Time. It's important I think.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Willowtimelecture.jpg

This will not be the last mention of time as fluid, with ripples. There will be another in part 2.

A brief opinion remark: There's been criticism of the introduction of time as a concept in this arc. The feeling is this is out of place in the Buffyverse. I disagree. Mentions of time are present in the Buffyverse Canon. A couple that come to mind are the time static presence of shadow men in Get it Done, and the idea time goes quicker in Hell dimensions. I don't see time as a unique concept in Buffy 8 but, more as a further building of an already existing trope.

Editorial over. Back to the story. There is tension now between Buffy and Kennedy as a result of Buffy's previous, exploratory venture into the land of Lesbos with Satsu. Ripples?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/BuffyvsKennedy.jpg

Back in Scotland the castle is attacked by some sort of mystic missile created by Warren and Amy. They have connected personally with Twilight, who Warren refers to as "Copperhead".

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Scotlandexplosion.jpg

Before that happened though there was a little hope for Dander shippers.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Dander1.jpg

In New York Willow has identified the temporal rift atop the Manhattan high rise. Time ripples are occurring causing anomalies. Willow suggests something is trying to get through, Kennedy makes another remark suggesting it's about the scythe. Buffy appears with the scythe and this happens.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Demonswap.jpg

We all remember the swap through dimensions of Buffy for demon in Get it Done, right? A similar thing happens here. A demon appears in our dimension, and Buffy disappears into a portal.

Buffyverse time travel hurts.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Timetravel.jpg

Or is it just Buffy? Teleporting makes her puke.

Buffy arrives in the future, and is greeted by Fray.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Buffyarrivalinfuture.jpg

Confusing eh? And it doesn't get less confusing in the next installment. It's fun though, because you know there's going to be answers sooner or later.

[white avenger]

I don't know if this has been brought up here yet, but there's mention of Issue 17 and Season 9, so, just in case anyone might be interested...

Scott Allie - "Buffy : Season 8" Comic Book - Slayalive.com QA (http://www.whedon.info/Scott-Allie-Buffy-Season-8-Comic,27549.html)

[nerd4hire]

I'll catch you guys up with some Fray Canon and trivia as we move along.

Fray dresses kind of Goth/Grunge. She has black hair with red tips. The tatoo on her left shoulder is reminiscent of the current symbol for hazardous waste. There are other theories as to what the symbol might mean, but the hazardous waste thing is what connects with me, personally.

Fray lives among the denizens of the under city. The higher class of Haddyn live in the upper level apartments above. She's street trash, but it wasn't always exactly like that. At one time her and her twin brother Harth lived with their older sister Erin. Erin became a cop. Fray somehow made some bad connections and took on odd contracts to steal (or what she calls grab) things for a mutant fishman, crime-boss named Gunther.

One time she took Harth on a grab, and they ran into what the people of Fray's time call a lurk. Lurks are vampires. The vampire killed Harth. Erin blamed Fray. Fray took off on her own to the streets. There was much tension between Erin and Fray. Neither knew about vampires, or slayers at the time. During the course of the series they made peace with each other.

Now in Buffy season 8 we discover they will even work together on Fray's slayer gig.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/FrayandErin.jpg

Or is that it?. Fray and Erin are looking for Harth.

(Oh, I forgot to tell you. When the vampire, Icarus, killed Harth, Harth knew the only way to survive was to drink the vampires blood. He knew this because twin brother Harth got the slayer dreams, and psychic connections to the slayer line. Melaka got the other stuff.)

Anyway Fray and Erin bust up a vampire nest in the back of a flying van. Fray is looking for Harth. She discovers some other information she wasn't expecting.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Fraygetsvampireinfo.jpg

So now we the reader know Vampire Harth has taken up with a powerful, mad woman who has lived for centuries. We immediately think - Aha...Drusilla.

It's not Drusilla though. It's revealed on the last page who it really is. I'll tell you who it is right away, because the canon stuff will become clearer if you know. It's Dark Willow.

We now discover Fray has taken up residence in the library Fray discovered in Tales of the Slayers (see previous page of thread).

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Fraysplace.jpg

She has also taken in the demon ape she was pursuing in ToTS as a grab for Gunther. Erin discovers both these details as they return to Fray's pad to research the mad woman from the past.

The monkey now has a name. Fray calls him Gates. That may have significance. One of the things we know about the library is it contains the Watcher's Diaries. Fray researches.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Frayresearches.jpg

The last great watcher would appear to be Giles. We will be able to piece that together from information given later.

For now though the story seques to Harth and Dark Willow discussing Harth's dreams from which he knows D W.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/harthwillowhands.jpg

Harth says "the slayer of slayers" (who he was in the dream) is coming. Does that mean the greatest of slayers, or the slayer who slayed the slayers? I don't know.

And there's other cryptic stuff, most of it from Dark Willow.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DWillowcryptic.jpg

When Harth asks Dark Willow why she would put two slayers together if they're powerful she answers.

"Vampires gain strength from each other. Slayers ultimately don't"

Is that true though? Again I don't know, but it doesn't really answer the question why it's necessary to put Fray and Buffy together. In answer to that Dark Willow says.

"What happens in your time will cause your time to come. Do you see?"

Now me, I don't see, but Dark Willow goes on to talk about ripples in time, or as good Willow said time is fluid. This, I would think, means it's changeable, so that might be a hint.

I should point out Dark Willow is still nasty. Harth is the vampire overlord in Fray's time. Dark Willow is impressed by the way he has been having his minions systematically turn the denizens of the under-city into vampires, creating a kind of vampire army. She talks of "the beloved infection". She hasn't suddenly become nice. If she has, she's doing a good job of disguising it.

Nice Willow, however is still in the past blaming herself for Buffy being taken. She's figured out Buffy is now in the future. Kennedy has been injured. It's just a flesh wound. Damn.

But wait last issue it appeared the castle in Scotland was blewn up. What happened to Dawn, Xander, and slayer force Scotland? We almost forgot about those guys.

Well turns out the explosion was not so much a bomb as a mystic penetration whereby demon warriors are appearing and storming the castle. It's not as bad as we first thought.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/RowenaStatus.jpg

Xander runs about the castle organizing the evacuation. He gets trapped by demon warriors.

Ok, we have to backtrack to last issue for a sec.

Just before the mystic missile hit Xander was comforting Centaur Dawn. He made this mistake some men are prone to make where he followed a sweet, flattering remark, with another that could better be described as boneheaded. (It's like they can't tolerate success) I think he accused her of being whiny. Where did he get that idea? :confused:

Dawn ran off into the forest on all fours.

OK so Dawn's pissed at Xander. The missile hits. Xander runs into the castle and gets hit by a green demon arrow, then trapped by the demons that shot it. When last we saw Dawn she was running into the forest for a cry. Then this happens...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Dawntotherescue-1.jpg

Dawn storms the castle looking for Xander.

He's injured. He can't run. Dawn comes to this conclusion.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Dawnsaysrideme.jpg

Is it clever reading skills, or a dirty mind that finds a certain amount of innuendo there? Whatever. I suggest there have been a steadily increasing number of hints pointing at a Dander ship lately.

Xander rides Dawn out of the castle.

Meanwhile back on the roof in Manhattan Good Willow figures out this is what happened as far as Buffy disappearing.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Willowfiguresouttimeswap.jpg

She know there's been a timeswap, and some dark force organized it.

She makes an interesting observation here when she suggests whoever that force is, he or she has way more power than her. Is Willow saying future Dark Willow is more powerful than she is?

Back in Haddyn, Erin drops Fray off at the rooftop in future time. Fray makes a couple of significant comments.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Buffyisthelastgirl.jpg

In the Fray series they speak of a final battle where the last slayer fought a demon army then disappeared. We learn now Buffy was that last girl. This also suggests Giles was "the last great watcher".

We also learn the mad woman reached through time and grabbed the last girl from the rooftop - "changing her".

So...Fray goes to the rooftop to investigate. The demon who will be swapped for Buffy in the past appears. The demon and Fray fight. The demon vanishes. Buffy appears. Fray thinks it's a shape shift. Fray and Buffy fight. Buffy convinces her there was no shape shift. Fray now figures out Buffy is the last slayer she has read of in her books.

The two decide to join forces and go looking for answers. While on route Buffy asks Fray how many slayers there are in her time. She discovers there's only Melaka. This rocks Buffy. Her whole concept of how the future was going to be is turned upside down. She no doubt expected her slayer army was going to live on.

Fray takes Buffy to see Gunther, the fish mutant, crime boss she works for. They want information. Fray questions Gunther on the mad woman guiding Harth. Buffy starts to zone out. The situation is starting to get to her.

Later Dark Willow explains it to Harth this way.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/DwillowonBuffysfailures.jpg

We've seen this a few times so far in Buffy 8. The bad guys seem interested less in physically destroying Buffy, and more interested in destroying her self image, belief system, and confidence. Why is that? This particular issue of Time of Your Life was all about questions, and that was the last one.

[UnKle]

N4H, I'd give you about 40 million karma points if I could!

Just amazing. I am getting this now. And I am starting to realize the gravity of this story. It's huge - as in extinction of the Slayer line huge.

Wow... wow.

[nerd4hire]

I reread that, what I wrote though, and I'm thinking it might turn out to be a tad simplistic to suggest the morality of Dark Willow is black and white, and she's black.

She does appear to express regret (sadness) at her need to break down Buffy. She says only time is stronger than love, and that does appear to suggest her need to damage Buffy is some kind of compromise.

Speaking of shades of morality. I think there's more added to the Buffyverse idea vampires can love. I think this bit from Harth concerning his feelings for his sister might be something fans could consider when discussing that topic...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/vampirelove.jpg

[CharmedSlayer85]

Well Joss always said that vampires can actually love and even Drusilla said that in Season Five of Buffy when she was saying we can love, we can love quite well. It's just that vampires don't love like humans do, which is understandly because they're not human

[UnKle]

I reread that, what I wrote though, and I'm thinking it might turn out to be a tad simplistic to suggest the morality of Dark Willow is black and white, and she's black.
I don't think of original Dark Willow in terms of black and white, but rather different shades of gray. She was emotional and inexperienced with that kind of magic, and because of that, her ride at the top was a quick one. But after that, she was apparently always going to be connected to the dark arts. And magic is who she is. If the world is suddenly without magic because of Buffy, I can imagine bad things happening.

I went back and re-read passages in issue #10. I think going back and re-reading that issue makes a few more pieces fall into place for me. Something big and bad does happen in the future between Willow and Buffy, I just don't know what it is. There's some kind of betrayal, and Buffy is left hurt, but Willow's... where?

In the scenes that close issue #17, I recognize at least a distant sadness in Dark Willow, and it makes me wonder what's going to happen to cause it.

[CharmedSlayer85]

Yeah that does make me think, if magick ceased to exist wouldn't that mean Willow would die? Because after the events of Season Six Giles basically said that magick is apart of Willow now which is why she can't quit like she did during the beginning of the season. But then again I guess not, cause she's apparently still alive in the future. Maybe all magick didn't disappear just the magick that keeps the demons in this dimension

[UnKle]

Maybe all magick didn't disappear just the magick that keeps the demons in this dimension
Huge, somewhat random and completely left-field guess here, but it sounds like Willow and Buffy are about to go head to head over whether or not there should be 2,000 slayers, or magic. Seems that having both is creating a powerful imbalance in the world, and one of them has to go. If there was a way for magic to be saved, say... preserved in a powerful uber-witch... well, consequences could be devastating.

[nerd4hire]

I keep wondering, what does the phrase "slayer of slayers" really mean. Does it mean Buffy ends the slayer line herself?

Also what does the Watcher Diaries passage Fray read mean when it says Buffy came back to her time "changed". What does changed mean there, I wonder.

[Superstar]

Buffy slays all the slayers.
She comes back "changed" so another actress can portray her. ;)

Hah! Never say I don't have an optimistic attitude.

[nerd4hire]

I was thinking maybe something might happen like Buffy comes back all twisted in her head, and uses the scythe to end the slayer line.

That couldn't be though, because in the Fray series they say there were still slayers after Buffy they were just never "called". What I gathered they meant by 'called' there was the watchers didn't train them to do what slayers do.

[UnKle]

I keep wondering, what does the phrase "slayer of slayers" really mean. Does it mean Buffy ends the slayer line herself?
A slayer of slayers is not a slayer; it is a vampire.

*cue dramatic music*
http://th40.photobucket.com/albums/e228/lurvlybasketcase/th_HILARIOUS.gif

[Allycat]

I was thinking maybe something might happen like Buffy comes back all twisted in her head, and uses the scythe to end the slayer line.

That couldn't be though, because in the Fray series they say there were still slayers after Buffy they were just never "called". What I gathered they meant by 'called' there was the watchers didn't train them to do what slayers do.


When Buffy meets Dark Willow, causes much distress to the Slayer. She will want to save her friend from the darkness, and thinks that ending the age of magic is the only way to do so. The Slayer-line will be disassembled in the process. What Buffy doesn't realise is that the this is the very act that upset Willow to the point where she turned evil again.

Just a thought.

[caitaintdead]

Wow, thankyou so much for that N4H, I actually understand half of what's going on now. I just can't help but think slayer of slayers is Spike... Or the First... Or the bringers... I dunno, this latest arc is still confusing me a bit, I think I might just hold off on reading it for awhile.

[nerd4hire]

If you were going to wait for the TPB collection of issues of this particular arc I wouldn't blame you. This might be the best one so far to read as a single story. And another advantage to doing that in this case is while you were waiting you could get the TPB for Fray. No amount of explaining Fray will give you the experience you can get from reading it. It's a great read.

[nerd4hire]

I've been hesitating to offer a post on the canon changes in part 3. So much is up in the air, and not understood at this point one runs the risk of having to apologize for being wrong next month.

In fact let's start with that. I may have to apologize for a point made last month. It's because of this.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/ConfusedBinfuture.jpg

Last month Fray pegged Buffy as the "last girl". This appeared to place Buffy as the last girl in Urkon's tale of the last slayer in the final battle.

Buffy now appears to be qualifying this. She appears to be saying the books where Fray got the information leading her to believe Buffy was the "last girl", is fuzzy...unclear as to who actually did what.

Even more confusing, there is no mention in the books of Buffy's slayer army. Was the book edited? Was the past edited? At this point who knows? (I have a feeling I'll be saying that again in future paragraphs).

But Buffy appears to take enough from what she read in the books, and what she is seeing in the future to be knocked for a psychological loop. She's not happy. There's even tears.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/spoileralert.jpg

Here's a problem with this issue from a canon perspective. Nothing much actually happens. Things are about to happen, but there's no real changes. Part 3 is about the set up.

Dawn and Xander are still running through the forest. Oh, one interesting thing there though. They meet talking trees. Dawn accuses them of being in "legend blend". This may be a sneaky general reference by Whedon not only to the unusual circumstance in this scene, but to background stuff in Season 8 in general. It's a writer's trick I've heard mentioned before. When you've introduced stuff that feels off, draw attention to it. In this way you let the reader know you get it too.

And even when something does happen you're not sure exactly what that is. Fray's vampire brother Harth goes to visit Gunther. Harth is up to something.

What though? Does he plan to kill Gunther, to kidnap him, to hold him down, and give him a stern talking to? Who knows.

We know this at least. Buffy is still a bad driver.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/JimJohn/Buffystillbaddriver.jpg

Fray and Buffy go Lurk hunting. They want to find out wh