"When I Killed Him..."

[white avenger]

On a couple of occasions in future episodes in later seasons, Buffy makes the statement that she "killed" Angel and sent him to hell to save the world, and I've always wondered why nobody ever corrected her on that fact (or maybe it was just a mistake on the show that Joss never bothered to correct), There is no way that stabbing Angel in the chest with a sword could kill him, and if it had, there would not have been a body to send through the portal, thereby closing,
,

In fact, that sword just might have been the single most important thing in keeping him alive in the hell dimension at all, because it provided him with a weapon (his time in hell, just how long it was there, what he had to do to survive there, and the method of his escape would have made, in my opinion, a great story arc for either series, or a novel/comic book later, but, to my knowledge, was never addressed).


My question is, have I been wrong in thinking this for all this time, or was Joss wrong in the first place for doing it?

[nerd4hire]

Life and Death are puzzling concepts in the Buffyverse, because there are so many ways to come back, and forms to come back as.

According to Buffyverse terminology Angel is already dead, so how do you kill a dead guy.

From Buffy's perspective though I can see her thinking of herself as killing Angel by sending him to Hell.

[RockManic]

I think she is talking about her intent, rather than her actual actions. As far as she knew at the moment she put the sword through Angel she was for all intents and purposes ending his existence. Whether that was by the act of using the sword or simply sending him to hell makes no difference. She was making the choice to "kill" him for the sake of saving the world. You could argue the technicalities all day but that is how the moment would have felt for her and so how she describes it.

[SpuffyisEternal]

Well by sending him to hell, she actually had killed him inside...at least that's my opinion on that little issue.

[Wicca-Who-Wont-a]

I can't really remember Buffy saying she killed angel, though i am sure she did, however I do remember her saying in the final episode of season five that she SACRIFICED angel to save the world, which she did.

[sk8rj04]

Season 7, Episode 5 "Selfless" there's a line or two of dialogue..let me find it..

ahh.. here it is:

I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with— I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to.

[jesterjay]

Well let's see - she shoved a sword through her heart and sent him through to hell right? That was supposed to kill him, according to Giles - and she did it up. I think that the RockManic is right, she intending to kill him...uh...dead.

[Fallen Angelus]

From Buffy's perspective though I can see her thinking of herself as killing Angel by sending him to Hell.

That's how I've always seen it too. He was in a Hell dimension - good as dead, really.

[SpuffyisEternal]

Since he was connected with blood to Acatha I guess sending him to hell did actually kill him after thinking about it. It is hard to figure out stuff like that is supposed to be hidden within the lines but I guess it makes sense for him to die while being sent to hell

[ILLYRIAN]

Did Buffy kill Angel ? Was Buffy right to say that she killed him ?
Maybe her mum should have told her, or the school, or her watcher...
when you kill some-one it's a good idea to make sure that they are actually dead, just because he went to hell doesn't mean that he's dead, unless you go and make sure.
Personally I blame the school for not telling Buffy how to make sure if the person they've just stuck a sword into is dead or not, but then again.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Did Buffy kill Angel ? Was Buffy right to say that she killed him ?
Maybe her mum should have told her, or the school, or her watcher...
when you kill some-one it's a good idea to make sure that they are actually dead, just because he went to hell doesn't mean that he's dead, unless you go and make sure.
Personally I blame the school for not telling Buffy how to make sure if the person they've just stuck a sword into is dead or not, but then again.


That Snyder should really have had stabbing correctly in the curriculum, especially in Sunnydale!

Anyway, the point Buffy was making was that she killed Angel for herself. He was gone, and was not coming back (well.....). It was the intention that mattered. If she had needed to stake him to close the portal, that is what she would have done. That is the point.

She also killed Faith, and Ted. Although Faith survived and Ted was a robot, she intended to kill them, in that moment. She had the power to do it, she knew she had the power to do it, and she went ahead and did it.

On a side note, she didn't kill Anyanka in that episode Selfless. I always found that interesting that Anya(nka) wanted to die, and Buffy didn't kill her.

[ILLYRIAN]

Yeh, naughty Snyder, not having how to stab correctly on the curriculum, bet he was afraid of big snake things as well [tee-hee].
Buffy was a vampire slayer, she knew how to kill a vampire, she knew what didn't kill a vampire. She would've known that sticking a metal object in a vampire's lower chest doesn't kill them.
Why did Buffy say she killed Angel when her training and experience would have told her she hadn't, did she feel as though she was verbally being trapped in a corner and she took the easy way out ?
It would seem [too me] that ' white avenger ' has come up with a continuity slip up.

[Blondie Bear]

He was, for all intents and purposes, dead. Okay, so his physical body was sucked into hell rather than dusted, but as far as anyone in Sunnydale was concerned, he was dead. Finis. Gone. And Buffy had caused it. Of course she would think (and say) that she killed him; you don't usually come back from Hell.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Buffy was a vampire slayer, she knew how to kill a vampire, she knew what didn't kill a vampire. She would've known that sticking a metal object in a vampire's lower chest doesn't kill them.
Why did Buffy say she killed Angel when her training and experience would have told her she hadn't, did she feel as though she was verbally being trapped in a corner and she took the easy way out ?


Ah, but where in her training does it say that sending a souled Vampire to hell isn't killing him. Isn't that what she considers death? The sending of the soul to (a) Heaven or (a) Hell? It wasn't the sword that she killed him with. That was merely a way of severing their connection with each other. (Symbolically, of course. It was only with the placing of the ring that she did it literally.)

[ILLYRIAN]

I can't remember, how many times did Buffy say she had killed Angel after she knew he was alive and not in hell ?
Angel had Angelus inside him according to the series, Angel and Angelus had the vampire inside, so by sending a demonic entity to hell, that would that kill it how ?
Admittedly the placement of the sword may not have made any difference to killing him, it was mentioned a few times that a vampires heart was the size of a walnut. To my way of thinking a vampires heart must have been bloody [no pun intended] massive considering where vampires were staked in the series.

[TabulaRasa]

I just thought once she punctured his heart the blood would spill and well he and the portal would go byebye. Just because he wasn't dusted doesn't mean he didn't die. I was sure that to close the portal all his blood needed to be shed, well probably by puncturing him the portal did suck all of his blood out, in some form or another.

And if you go to hell, you're a dead man. :)

[MLLamble]

I don't think that you're allowed to "fight off" things in hell. They jsut torment you. You can't be killed in hell, since it's not a material plane. Also, he did not escape. He was summoned back by the Bringers and the First Evil.

[SoBlind]

I can't really remember Buffy saying she killed angel, though i am sure she did, however I do remember her saying in the final episode of season five that she SACRIFICED angel to save the world, which she did.

Buffy season 3, 'Amends'
Angel: "Am I worth saving, huh? Am I a righteous man? The world wants me gone!"
Buffy: "And what about me? I love you so much. And i tried to make you go away. I killed you and it didn't help. And I hate it! I hate that it's so hard. And that you can hurt me so much."

[palabravampiress]

I think Buffy "killed" Angel by doing two things:

1. Sending his physical body out of our dimension "forever."
2. Sending his soul to Hell.

As far as Buffy knew at the time, no part of Angel -- neither his body nor his soul -- would ever return to the human, mortal realm again. To reference Anya, Angel would never drink pig's blood again. He would never laugh or lather his hair in gel or brood again. He was gone. I think "killed" is a pretty good way to describe doing that to someone.

[Keanoite]

I agree with every point PV made. Angel, body and soul was no longer part of this physical plane and the reason for that was Buffy running him through with her sword. I think it is more than fair to say she killed him. I mean who's to know what happened when Angel went through the portal, he very well could have been dusted? Doesn't really matter though because sticking the sword through his heart had the same effect of her staking him. He went to hell.

[white avenger]

If anyone in this world (or, I guess, in BUFFY"S world), knew that killing a vampire resulted in a cloud of dust, it was Buffy. In order to close the dimensional portal, a whole, physical body had to pass through, therefore Angel COULD NOT have been dead, or the portal would not have closed back. Buffy could accurately say that she sent Angel to hell, but not that she killed him. It's a fine line, I agree, but it still exists. (Is this another "cavemen vs astronauts" argument?)

[vampireczarina]

I would say she did kill him by shoving him in. I don't think a whole body was necessary by the rules that went with Acathala and opening/closing the demon's portal. It required blood to open the portal in combination with pulling out the sword, and required blood to close it. That's not a whole body necessarily, although it would do the trick too (just in a quicker more dramatic way). There is some vagueness on how much blood was required to close it, but I don't remember them saying he had to go in his entirety. I think Buffy pushed him in, because on some subconscious level she knew he had gone evil again and needed to be destroyed. So she pushed him through, sending him to hell.

[SoBlind]

I would say she did kill him by shoving him in. I don't think a whole body was necessary by the rules that went with Acathala and opening/closing the demon's portal. It required blood to open the portal in combination with pulling out the sword, and required blood to close it. That's not a whole body necessarily, although it would do the trick too (just in a quicker more dramatic way). There is some vagueness on how much blood was required to close it, but I don't remember them saying he had to go in his entirety. I think Buffy pushed him in, because on some subconscious level she knew he had gone evil again and needed to be destroyed. So she pushed him through, sending him to hell.

Whistler: His blood will open the door to Hell. Acathla opens
his big mouth, creates a vortex. Then only Angel's blood will close it.
One blow will send 'em both back to Hell.

from what whistler says, i guess it wasnt possible to keep angel out of the vortex. she certainly didnt push him in

[Jules]

Isn't this the same principle as Buffy's death at the end of season 5, her body goes through a hell dimension portal and her soul is ripped out. True she ended up in heaven and not a hell dimension but she died all the same. Angel's body is sucked through a hell dimension, Buffy had no knowledge at that time that it was possible to survive something like that. He's gone from her world and as far as she is concerned there's no bringing him back.

On a side note, before Angel gets his soul back did anyone else think she looked ready to behead him?? If she'd have done that how would she have closed the gate??

[SoBlind]

Isn't this the same principle as Buffy's death at the end of season 5, her body goes through a hell dimension portal and her soul is ripped out. True she ended up in heaven and not a hell dimension but she died all the same. Angel's body is sucked through a hell dimension, Buffy had no knowledge at that time that it was possible to survive something like that. He's gone from her world and as far as she is concerned there's no bringing him back.

On a side note, before Angel gets his soul back did anyone else think she looked ready to behead him?? If she'd have done that how would she have closed the gate??

Good point with the beheading. Maybe she figured she could kill him now and just dump his pieces into the vortex. ;)

With the other thing, I dont know if ur right. Buffy went THROUGH the portal to close it and died because of it. Angel went INTO the the portal, into a hell dimension without losing his soul. It seems quite different to me.

[angeldork]

I think that when Buffy says that she killed Angel, I think that at the core she knows that a sword through the hear won't kill a vampire. But when doing that she was sending him to hell and I think because of that she probably thought that in doing so she did kill him. That there would be no way that he could survive hell.

[Urgent Power]

I think this is the sword Kendra said was blessed by a knight or something, it's meant to kill vampires. So Buffy thought she killed him with it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my answer.

[Relic]

^^^^can't say I remember for certain, but I thought that was just a sword to kill and seal Acathala. If she would behead Angel with it, game over, but just piercing his heart wouldn't do the trick. Course, I'm not sure about that. :)

When Buffy says that she killed Angel I agree with the folks that say overall:

Buffy went to kill Angelus and if necessary re-seal Acathala before he could draw in his first breath, she had no knowledge of Willow trying to re soul Angelus and bring back Angel.

Suprise! He gets resouled, but only after Acathala starts to stir. The only way to undo this is by using Angels Blood, so she pins them direct route, heart to heart, together. She thinks this may kill him, but its something she has to do as it is the fastest way to seal the portal.

She stabs him but he does'nt die, instead Angel gets sucked into hell...I guess his blood took just that long to seal Acathala, or maybe thats what happens to the conjurer that messes with Acathala and fails to deliver? I dunno.

I wonder if she really knew it would kill him, she never talks about it like it was a slay- and in Angels case that would be like a murder for her, so much as a consequence of her actions which she took because of her duty and role as a hero saving the world. I mean she says she killed him, not murdered him. Probably just a technicality, but the sword through his heart I don't think would kill him. Acathala taking him to hell certainly would. Ican't remember if Acathala taking the creature that awoke him to hell is a part of prophecy and such when dealing with resealing Acathala, I'm not sure but I don't think Buffy saw that one coming.

just my yammerings based off of some of everbody elses ideas.

[pernilleborup]

Did y'all also notice that mny vampires apparantly can die when they are stabbed in the stomach?

[Urgent Power]

Did y'all also notice that mny vampires apparantly can die when they are stabbed in the stomach?

Every time I watch Buffy, my brother complains about that. I think we should just close our eyes when that happens and imagine they're stabbed in the heart!

[DarkAvenger]

AHH!! I remember now! I wanted to say that in the thread "what bugs you blabla..." but i didn't remember what it was!!

And did you noticed that sometimes they stake a vampire really close to the heart and they say something like "sorry, that's not the heart" -_-

[pernilleborup]

And did you noticed that sometimes they stake a vampire really close to the heart and they say something like "sorry, that's not the heart" -_-
Oh oh oh, they totally did that in "Vampire in Brooklyn"!!!

(Eddie Murphey as Max, a mighty curly vamp) He get's stabbed and he's all like "Sorry, This the heart, and that is my stomach. Heart, Stomach!"

[SoBlind]

Did y'all also notice that mny vampires apparantly can die when they are stabbed in the stomach?

i've noticed that too! then again, there are a couple of vampire-related things that just change whenever its convenient, eg. the whole 'having-a-soul' thing. angel was in love with buffy, yet when he lost is his soul he lost the ability to love, care, have remorse....just everything remotely human. then the whole spike thing started. he didnt have a soul either, yet he could love her, he cared for her and when he tried to rape her he later on felt hugely sorry about it. i think the sword through angel was supposed to kill him. but even if not. even if its 'only' supposed to send him to hell, for one: thats not a pretty place to be in and two: it took him away from her and isnt that really all she says to xander? he doesnt wanna give up anya cos shes a demon and killed people, yet SHE had to give up angel cos he was a demon and killed people

[fly on the wall]

His soul left this realm, right? Went to and was trapped in a Hell dimension? I think that counts as "dead."