Would you kill your father for the person you love?

[untouched]

ok... maybe a lame subject, but i think it's intersting trying to get wesleys perspective. i mean, he actually shot his on father...for fred!

i mean, he loves her and all, but it was his on father.

also, what do you think fred felt? she must have thought about it.

[Bored of the Dead]

Its not like he just decided to shoot Roger - he pointed a gun at Fred and had shown that he would do anything to get what he wanted.

Fred was the woman Wesley was in love with, his 'soulmate' and she was being threatened. In the heat of the moment you will do what it takes to protect the person you love.

I don't fault Wes one iota, even to the point of saying I would love to believe i'd do the same in that situation.

[eponinethen]

It's not like it's a "your father or your love" kinda deal. If my father tried to kill/hurt someone I cared about etc., it'd be one situation, if someone I loved tried to kill my dad, it'd be another. Etc.

[BuffBuff]

it also seemed like wes and his father had a very tense and distant relationship, in the sense that no matter what wesley did in his life it would never be good enough for his father. so maybe wes didn't hold his father in such a high place in his heart where he would second guess shooting him if put into that kind of situation.

and yes, wesley was in love with fred, who was thrown into this situation. in the heat of the moment, i think anyone would do whatever they could to prevent the one they love from getting hurt. even if that means shooting a relative who is the cause of that threat

[Lily]

i think put in that situation, i would go the same route as Wes did
he had to choose, not just between two people, but to choose to remove the threat on the woman he loved that had been put their by the man who had made him live in fear of disapproval his whole life
that's a lot of baggage and i think if i'd had that to deal with it'd be an easy choice - cause you know the guy thrived on causing you pain so he would think nothing of getting Fred out of the way so to speak

[eponinethen]

it also seemed like wes and his father had a very tense and distant relationship, in the sense that no matter what wesley did in his life it would never be good enough for his father. so maybe wes didn't hold his father in such a high place in his heart where he would second guess shooting him if put into that kind of situation.
I guess my last post didn't make too much sense. But basically what I meant was that you can't expect "father" to mean the same thing to everyone. We all have many different relationships, and just 'cause your father means a lot to you doesn't mean mine does to me (he does, but you get my point). You can't expect other people's relationships to look like yours.

[untouched]

yes, I can see what eponinethen means. I think it really depends on what the word father means to erveryone. Wesley sure didn´t have the best father-son relationship in the world and we can see that even from s1. Fred meant a lot more to him, but we can actually see how guilty he feels in the end. I think it can be mostly because maybe he's afraid of people's judgments...or maybe not, I don't know.

[TabulaRasa]

Tough deal. But you have to weigh the odds. If my father was willing to kill someone innocent, whether I loved them or not, then you cannot save him, over the innocent. In that case, it was one or the other. And for Wes, his father saw him as nothing more than a disappointment. They never had a connection. But with Fred, he was in love. She that was one of his reasons, the other was his father was going to kill someone innocent (like I said already). He couldn't let that happen.

[Xin Rong]

I would so do that, but then again i hate him with a fiery passion so would do it for any reason lol

[StuckinTraffic]

I wouldn't have had any problem, either, if I was in the situation Wesley was in. But I dislike my father, so that would be a factor in my own, personal circumstance.

[Old Master 3.0]

Judas priest, don't ANY of you love your dads? :p:p Wow, a lotta paternal enmity on the BB. :p

[Wicked]

No I wouldnt. I love my dad way too much

[MascaraTears]

I believe that Wesley's choice was right considering the situation. If anyone's pointing a gun at the person you love.. whether family/friend or foe.. I think in that minute you just jump to protect what you love. She was the innocent person in the whole scenario. Not to mention if something like that did ever occur, the person behind the gun couldn't be too concerned for your sake. I'd have to say I'd probably react in the same manor.

[Monty]

Simply put: never. But that's just me.

[palabravampiress]

I love my dad very much. We have a close relationship. He and my husband get along very well, too. So if he ever snapped and held a gun to my hubby's head, I would know that something was seriously wrong. My instinct would be to protect my husband -- because, obviously, my dad's head is all wonky in this scenario.

That said, Wes went for the kill shot rather quickly, didn't he? I'd shoot to wound and diffuse the situation, not shoot to kill.

[Keanoite]

I can see where Wesley was coming from because his dad was pretty much a prick but I love my Dad, he is the absolute best I could never see myslef hurting him.Ever.

I have a question though, How come Fred wasn't completely turned off Wesley by his actions? Cuz essentially it was Gunn killing that professor and her inability to get over it that broke them up?

[palabravampiress]

I can see where Wesley was coming from because his dad was pretty much a prick but I love my Dad, he is the absolute best I could never see myslef hurting him.Ever.

I have a question though, How come Fred wasn't completely turned off Wesley by his actions? Cuz essentially it was Gunn killing that professor and her inability to get over it that broke them up?

When Gunn did it, he was robbing Fred of her revenge. He was disrespecting Fred's ability to make her own decisions and to take that darkness onto herself. He was trying to keep her up on his pedestal. He was being an extreme hypocrite by doing something he insisted that she was too good to do. Gunn's reasons were selfish.

When Wes "killed" his dad, it turned out not to be his dad, which helped. Also, he was saving her life, not her innocence. He was sacrificing something (his dad) to save her life, not being a hypocrite to save her honor. There's a difference, there. Wes' actions carried with them no disrespect. Gunn's actions did.

[Keanoite]

When Gunn did it, he was robbing Fred of her revenge. He was disrespecting Fred's ability to make her own decisions and to take that darkness onto herself. He was trying to keep her up on his pedestal. He was being an extreme hypocrite by doing something he insisted that she was too good to do. Gunn's reasons were selfish.

When Wes "killed" his dad, it turned out not to be his dad, which helped. Also, he was saving her life, not her innocence. He was sacrificing something (his dad) to save her life, not being a hypocrite to save her honor. There's a difference, there. Wes' actions carried with them no disrespect. Gunn's actions did.

I actully thought he was being pretty selfless. Guilt will eat you alive, he didn't want her to have to carry that around, so he put it on him. I only have respect for that. If it was me I would do the same thing.

[palabravampiress]

I actully thought he was being pretty selfless. Guilt will eat you alive, he didn't want her to have to carry that around, so he put it on him. I only have respect for that. If it was me I would do the same thing.

I get why he did it, but it wasn't his decision to make. It wasn't his revenge to take. You can't just step in and make decisions for other people based on what you think is best for them. That's disrespectful and selfish and completely annoying.

I sound like a broken record, don't I? This is my main complaint about Angel, too, and about a lot of other Jossverse characters if I ever get around to ranting about them. Acting on this whole hypocritical I-know-what's-best-for-you attitude is one thing about fictional men that just really gets on my main nerve. It's obviously all over the Buffyverse. But not just that. On my other show, GH, the main men are gangsters who do the exact same thing. It really makes me mad!

Do I think Fred had the right to kill the professor? Legally, no. But do I think that if any one of Angel's crew had the right to do it, it was Fred? Absolutely. Also, the law isn't prepared to deal with mystical kidnapping and hell dimensions. That's why our heroes exist. In some ways, Fred is perfectly within her jurisdiction to take out the professor. The normal law won't, so our champions have to. In this case, Fred felt that she had to do so in order to move on. I was so mad at Gunn when he took that away from her. I looked at my husband and said, "He stole her vengeance! If anybody ever kidnaps me into a hell dimension, I get first dibs at killing him." My husband said, "Umm... I can't promise that." Ugh. Stupid men - even the non-fictional ones!

Rant over. Sorry.

[Keanoite]

I get why he did it, but it wasn't his decision to make. It wasn't his revenge to take. You can't just step in and make decisions for other people based on what you think is best for them. That's disrespectful and selfish and completely annoying.

I sound like a broken record, don't I? This is my main complaint about Angel, too, and about a lot of other Jossverse characters if I ever get around to ranting about them. Acting on this whole hypocritical I-know-what's-best-for-you attitude is one thing about fictional men that just really gets on my main nerve. It's obviously all over the Buffyverse. But not just that. On my other show, GH, the main men are gangsters who do the exact same thing. It really makes me mad!

Do I think Fred had the right to kill the professor? Legally, no. But do I think that if any one of Angel's crew had the right to do it, it was Fred? Absolutely. Also, the law isn't prepared to deal with mystical kidnapping and hell dimensions. That's why our heroes exist. In some ways, Fred is perfectly within her jurisdiction to take out the professor. The normal law won't, so our champions have to. In this case, Fred felt that she had to do so in order to move on. I was so mad at Gunn when he took that away from her. I looked at my husband and said, "He stole her vengeance! If anybody ever kidnaps me into a hell dimension, I get first dibs at killing him." My husband said, "Umm... I can't promise that." Ugh. Stupid men - even the non-fictional ones!

Rant over. Sorry.

I see your point but I don't see it as making decisions for people, I see it as protecting people. Maybe this is because I supposedly have an Angel complex (my frined informed me of this recently) but if I could save someone I love from one iota of pain I would. It's not because I think I know best, its cuz I can't bear for them to be hurt. Gunn and Angel work off the same thing. I'm not saying it's right but I don't think they deserve to be flamed for it.

[palabravampiress]

I see your point but I don't see it as making decisions for people, I see it as protecting people. Maybe this is because I supposedly have an Angel complex (my frined informed me of this recently) but if I could save someone I love from one iota of pain I would. It's not because I think I know best, its cuz I can't bear for them to be hurt. Gunn and Angel work off the same thing. I'm not saying it's right but I don't think they deserve to be flamed for it.

I think the impulse is good. Where the flaming comes in is in their lack of ability to consider the other person and check that impulse. Sure, Gunn was protecting Fred, but he ended up hurting her more -- because she didn't want to be protected and coddled. She wanted to take action. With Wes, Fred wanted to be protected. That, to me, is the difference. You can't just go around saying "Me hero; you victim." Sometimes, people need to be allowed to make their own decisions and their own mistakes. They need to stand on their own two feet in order to grow as individuals. Gunn took away Fred's chance to do that. He wanted to keep her pristine and perfect. Wes didn't take away anything. He just wanted her alive.

Aside: I can't believe I just said that! I actually prefer Fred with Gunn! They were cuteness itself.

[Keanoite]

I think the impulse is good. Where the flaming comes in is in their lack of ability to consider the other person and check that impulse. Sure, Gunn was protecting Fred, but he ended up hurting her more -- because she didn't want to be protected and coddled. She wanted to take action. With Wes, Fred wanted to be protected. That, to me, is the difference. You can't just go around saying "Me hero; you victim." Sometimes, people need to be allowed to make their own decisions and their own mistakes. They need to stand on their own two feet in order to grow as individuals. Gunn took away Fred's chance to do that. He wanted to keep her pristine and perfect. Wes didn't take away anything. He just wanted her alive.

Aside: I can't believe I just said that! I actually prefer Fred with Gunn! They were cuteness itself.

I don't agree that Gunn wanted her pristine and perfect, he wanted her to be Fred, he didn't want her to lose herself. The professor had already taken so much from her, Gunn didn't want him to get any more.

Aside II: I prefer Gunn and Fred too. There were just so sweet! remember Waiting in the wings!! aww!!!

[JollyApe]

Wesley was a very unstable man. Nuff said.

No I wouldn't kill for my love. I wouldn't kill for anyone. I would give up my own life for my love and all those I love in an instant, but I would never take a life for them. Not even if it meant they would keep theirs.

[Kana]

Re: Fred and Gunn, the problem is that Gunn failed in protecting her from the guilt. In fact Fred felt worse because Gunn took on that guilt for her because of what she was going to do which is why she shares responsibility for it. She feels just as guilty as he does.

As for Wes? I can't imagine killing my father but he'd never put me in that position.
Interestingly Wes was willing to die for Angel but willing to kill for Fred. It was a dark moment in which Wes accepted no comfort. He shot his father almost instintually when he grabbed Fred. It doesn't matter that it wasn't his father because he believe it was when he shot him. As far as intention is concerned he might as well have done.

Going back to the original comparison. Like it was said, Fred was innocent in all this. Fred knew how Wes felt about her but perhaps this was an obstacle which is why they got together a lot later. It was something they both had to get over.

Also let us not forget it was Gunn who actually ended things with Fred ultimately, and he even stopped her attempt of them getting back together, part of it was the problems they had as a result of her old professor but part of it was down to Wesley.

[Keanoite]

I agree about Wesley, he shot to kill, as far as he knew that was his father.

On Fred and Gunn I'm still not convinced, I think it was more anger than guilt that caused her to push him away. She had seen people she loved do terrible things and never pulled away from them. But all those times it was never about her, with Gunn it was and she was seriouly pissed.