Was Willow being unfair to Oz?

[MLLamble]

In the episode "Wild at Heart", Willow got very upset about the whole Oz and Veruca thing (Which was somewhat justified). Don't get me wrong, I positively love Willow, and I love her relationship with Tara, but I think that she treated Oz unfairly for a number of reasons:
1. The chemistry between Oz and Veruca was a purely werewolf attraction, but Oz still loved Willow when he was human.
2. If Oz hadn't brought Veruca into the cage and "mated" with her, then she would have run free and possibly would have killed people.
3. When she cheated on Oz, he gave her a second chance.
4. She didn't even give Oz a chance to explain himself.

On the bright side, if they hadn't broke up, then we might never have met Tara. But anyway, what do y'all think of Willow's treatment of Oz?

[Blondie Bear]

I think her reaction was completely understandable and justifiable. She was shocked, hurt, angry, etc. As she said, he had not only cheated on her, he had been lying to her, consistently, for days, if not weeks, about his attraction to Veruca. Her attack on him when she found him and Veruca together was her immediate, knee-jerk, emotion-laden reaction. Unfortunately, she was never really allowed to get past this reaction because Oz ran off almost immediately. There was no closure (until he came back), just a big open emotional sore that was left to bleed.

[Wiccaness]

Yeah, i agree with Blondie bear.... Oz saying he didnt have a choice isnt completely true, he had known that she was a wolf before that night, so he could have told the scoobies he didnt necerly need to lock her up with him and mate.

They would have tried to help her even if she didnt want to, yeah willow cheated on oz before but that was something that Her and Xander had tried to stop and they thought that they were going to die and all that, it doesnt make it right it just, its one of those moments,plus they were high school kids, they matured after that and after wards Willow tried to prove her self to him,

so if he felt hurt or betrayed from that, then especially after that he shouldnt even had seen veruca while as a human. And like he said the wolf is always inside him, so even as a human, part of him was attracted to Veruca, because the wolf is a part of him. and she would have giving him a second chance, but oz took of, so if he didnt get a second chance it was his own fault for leaving her, yeah it was to protect her and he came back but he still took of

and about not giving a chance for oz to explain, its not like he gave her one either, he took her back but after he realized he missed her, and the whole veruca thing had been going on for a while and willow had noticed things between them for a while and he wouldnt talk

[MLLamble]

I can see your points. I suppose things might have gotten better between them if Oz hadn't left immediately, so Oz is equally, if not more to blame. I agree that Willow's reaction was emotional and knee-jerk, and, under the circumstances, justified. I guess from her point of view, she was completely in the right. When you're upset, it's hard to have a calm, balanced discussion.
I guess my end verdict/opinion is this: Both sides had just causes, but neither side was completely right. In the end, however, I guess I support Willow.
Yes, I know that I seem to be flip-flopping, but:
1. You all have brought up compelling arguments,
2. Like Wiccaness pointed out, Willow was willing to take Oz back, but he left.
3. I was trying to show things from Oz's point of view.

Have a nice day.

[codyw1]

Um, no. lol

Don't get me wrong, felt for oz too. Twas a situation bad for everyone. I don't believe for a second oz would have cheated on Will without the whole werewolf thing driving him crazy, which makes it all rather tragic.

Veruca was a bitch. Happy happy happy that wolfoz snapped her neck! lol!

[Your Creamy Coolness]

I don't think WILLOW was unfair. She had moved on. She didn't think Oz was coming back. He sent for his stuff. She thought it was finished. I am glad she choose Tara. I like Oz......alot...but I love Tara even more.

[MLLamble]

I'm not for a second suggesting that she take Oz back. I like Tara better as well. Again, I was just trying to see thing's from Oz's perspective.

[Wiccaness]

I'm not for a second suggesting that she take Oz back. I like Tara better as well. Again, I was just trying to see thing's from Oz's perspective.

i think u got his perspective pretty good

[MLLamble]

Thank you. I hope that that was actually a compliment, not sarcasm (I can't tell them apart on message boards...) I think my "Oz perspective" fixation stems from reading too many advice columns with one sided letters and advice. :-)

[Wiccaness]

lol no that was actually a compliment no sarcasm intended

[TabulaRasa]

It was reasonable. I was yelling at Oz while watching. He knew, as human, something was up. That there was an actraction, even before he found out what she was. He didn't stay away.

[Supergirl]

Willow wasn't entirely unreasonable but I do think that she should've given Oz a proper chance to explain or to at least try and apologise for his wrong-doings. She was clearly upset and confused even before Oz and Veruca did the dirty because she felt there was an undeniable attraction between the pair (the whole 'Oz-blushing-behind-the-ear thing which was meant for her only) etc. It was Oz's own fault for not staying away from Veruca, even when he found out what she was.

[Wiccaness]

Willow wasn't entirely unreasonable but I do think that she should've given Oz a proper chance to explain or to at least try and apologise for his wrong-doings.

Do you mean this during the time that she found them together or later on?

[Supergirl]

Do you mean this during the time that she found them together or later on?

Later on. Because at the time, I don't think either of them were in the right state of mind to be talking sense, what with Willow clearly distraught and Oz (from what I gathered he'd feel like) completely humilated with himself. They both needed time to gather up their thoughts and think about what they'd done and what needed to be done.

[Wiccaness]

Later on. Because at the time, I don't think either of them were in the right state of mind to be talking sense,

ok, then id have to disagree with the part that she should have given him a proper chance to explain, because she basically did give him a chance, she went to his room, and found him packing he told her he was living by choice and she asked

Willow : Don't I get any say in this?

Oz : No.

So if he didnt get a chance to explain, it was because he didnt take it


He did tried to explain it at the time that willow found them together, so i think i would agree with you if it was at the time, i also agree that they werent exactly in any right state of mind
Might be why Willow didnt really listen to what he was saying

[Supergirl]

ok, then id have to disagree with the part that she should have given him a proper chance to explain, because she basically did give him a chance, she went to his room, and found him packing he told her he was living by choice and she asked

Willow : Don't I get any say in this?

Oz : No.

So if he didnt get a chance to explain, it was because he didnt take it


He did tried to explain it at the time that willow found them together, so i think i would agree with you if it was at the time, i also agree that they werent exactly in any right state of mind
Might be why Willow didnt really listen to what he was saying

That's true, actually. But I think that she could've pushed a bit harder to get an explanation out of him.. I mean, afterall, she DID kinda deserve one.

[Wiccaness]

That's true, actually. But I think that she could've pushed a bit harder to get an explanation out of him.. I mean, after all, she DID kinda deserve one.

Yeah i agree with you there too, but i think she was just to hurt to prod anymore, she even questioned him about if he loved her, i think that if he had stayed for a bit longer, let things cool of a bit, then either willow would have gone looking for him or he would have gone to her and tried to explain

[Supergirl]

Yeah i agree with you there too, but i think she was just to hurt to prod anymore, she even questioned him about if he loved her, i think that if he had stayed for a bit longer, let things cool of a bit, then either willow would have gone looking for him or he would have gone to her and tried to explain


True, true. I guess she just figured it was better to just lay to rest what they were than sit back and dwell on what could've been. I think that way it hurt less.. I mean, I don't think she'd of liked to hear a full detailed explaination of what had happened between him and Veruca but, I mean, c'mon, he didn't even say sorry :/

[Wiccaness]

True, true. I guess she just figured it was better to just lay to rest what they were than sit back and dwell on what could've been. I think that way it hurt less.. I mean, I don't think she'd of liked to hear a full detailed explaination of what had happened between him and Veruca but, I mean, c'mon, he didn't even say sorry :/

Yeah, thats one of the things that bugged me about it

Well it was the whole not saying sorry and then coming back saying he can be what she needs

[Supergirl]

Yeah, thats one of the things that bugged me about it

Well it was the whole not saying sorry and then coming back saying he can be what she needs

I think when he came back, it was totally unfair of him because she'd moved on.. as hard as it was for her, she managed to get over him, get happy again and found someone else who was much better for her, IMO, than Oz was. So I think he expected her to of been mooning over him for that whole period of time he was gone, and when he came back, she'd be at his beck and call. I mean, I LIKE Oz, but I think he should've stayed away after he left.. he only ended up opening old wounds that had very nearly healed.

[Wiccaness]

I think when he came back, it was totally unfair of him because she'd moved on.. as hard as it was for her, she managed to get over him, get happy again and found someone else who was much better for her, IMO, than Oz was. So I think he expected her to of been mooning over him for that whole period of time he was gone, and when he came back, she'd be at his beck and call. I mean, I LIKE Oz, but I think he should've stayed away after he left.. he only ended up opening old wounds that had very nearly healed.

yup, the only good thing that came from him coming back was that it made willow choose and probably realize who she really was in love with, which was tara yay lol for me Willow and oz was just cute and very high school, willow and tara was more like real love, i cant remember if it was at first or later on on that view though

[Supergirl]

yup, the only good thing that came from him coming back was that it made willow choose and probably realize who she really was in love with, which was tara yay lol for me Willow and oz was just cute and very high school, willow and tara was more like real love, i cant remember if it was at first or later on on that view though

I agree. And on the other hand, when you think about it, I guess Oz HAD to come back to see if there was still a chance for them to be together.. and when he realised that Willow had fallen for Tara, there was no real need for him to stick around. He obviously returned for Willow and he left with closure.

[Wiccaness]

I agree. And on the other hand, when you think about it, I guess Oz HAD to come back to see if there was still a chance for them to be together.. and when he realized that Willow had fallen for Tara, there was no real need for him to stick around. He obviously returned for Willow and he left with closure.

Yeah , i guess we cant give oz to much hell about it, he kinda played an important part i guess

[GATEGOD]

In the episode "Wild at Heart", Willow got very upset about the whole Oz and Veruca thing (Which was somewhat justified). Don't get me wrong, I positively love Willow, and I love her relationship with Tara, but I think that she treated Oz unfairly for a number of reasons:
1. The chemistry between Oz and Veruca was a purely werewolf attraction, but Oz still loved Willow when he was human.
2. If Oz hadn't brought Veruca into the cage and "mated" with her, then she would have run free and possibly would have killed people.
3. When she cheated on Oz, he gave her a second chance.
4. She didn't even give Oz a chance to explain himself.

On the bright side, if they hadn't broke up, then we might never have met Tara. But anyway, what do y'all think of Willow's treatment of Oz?

Willow was most certainly being too hard on oz and didn't help much by acting the way she did, it only pushed him away even more. I wish they didn't break up. Oz/willow story line would have been alot cooler then a willow/tara one. In my biased opinion ^_^

[hyperballadbrad]

Well, the werewold chemisty between was isn't supposed to be taken entirely literally.

The attraction is all that matters, and it hits Willow hard. I don't think it is a queston of Willow being fair or unfair... it's a matter of just how Willow reacts to these very high and sensitive emotions. It would hurt anyone to think that the one you love wants someone else. That's all that really matters

[Wiccaness]

Willow was most certainly being too hard on oz and didn't help much by acting the way she did, it only pushed him away even more. I wish they didn't break up. Oz/willow story line would have been alot cooler then a willow/tara one. In my biased opinion ^_^

i dont see how she pushed him away or how she was being to hard on him?

[GATEGOD]

i dont see how she pushed him away or how she was being to hard on him?

Even after this when Oz comes back, he comes back for her, he was always planning on coming back and when he finally does come back later in the season Willow already finds someone else... he was willing to even go back to school and everything then he finds out Tara is her "girlfriend" :/ and looses control again. Then she chooses Tara over Oz .... she new Oz alot longer and loved him alot more, in my opinion yet somehow she chooses Tara... that is a slap in the face to Oz. lol She did push him away in real last ep and in the one when he first leaves. He realizes he's not safe to be around and he has to change so he goes to change, changes, comes back, isn't wanted, and leaves.

[Wiccaness]

Even after this when Oz comes back, he comes back for her, he was always planning on coming back


Thats not for sure, when was it ever said that Oz knew he was coming back, he said he was going to find a cure but if he didnt he could have stayed away

and when he finally does come back later in the season Willow already finds someone else... he was willing to even go back to school and everything then he finds out Tara is her "girlfriend" :/ and looses control again.

So what he expected WIllow, who he left heart broken to wait for him forever, to me thats being selfish
He wasnt willing to go back to school for her, he was going back to school because he thought things between him and Willow would end up working out and he would be staying in sunnydale


Then she chooses Tara over Oz .... she new Oz alot longer and loved him alot more,


Love can change, and knowing some one alot longer doesnt mean anything, if it did she might as well gone off and married Xander.


yet somehow she chooses Tara... that is a slap in the face to Oz.

WHat about when Oz lies to Willow about whats going on with Veruca, i'd say thats a slap in the face to her, or maybe when she tries to fix things and he just leaves her, she said it herself, she waited for him, but it just didnt happen


She did push him away in real last ep and in the one when he first leaves.

No she doesnt ....in the one where he first leaves , Wild at heart , she's hurt wen she first see's them, but she doesnt push him away, he basicly lied to her


He realizes he's not safe to be around and he has to change so he goes to change, changes, comes back, isn't wanted, and leaves.


and this was the right choice for him, he couldnt make her be with him, she fell in love with some one else,, it wasnt her fault and it wasnt his , she didnt push him away or give him a reason to leave....they had worked fine with his wolf side....but his the one whose solution is to leaves AND....when he returns he makes him self more dangerous to her, to any one. now it just doesnt take a full moon to go all wolf, now it just takes something he doesnt like, he cant contol the wolf even if he thinks he did, once he changes human Oz is gone till he changes back

[GATEGOD]

lol If Oz didn't leave/ didn't bring up leaving, Willow would have dumped him, then and there, she wasn't going to forgive him and let things be, it was clear.

[palabravampiress]

I felt for Oz. He didn't make a conscious decision to cheat on Willow. That happened, yes, but the intention was good: he would rather have had Veruca in that cage with him than out on the street to kill (or, possibly, to be killed). I think they could have worked through it. I think Willow, as hurt as she was, would have been able to understand and accept and even forgive that. After all, this is Oz we're talking about. He understood and accepted and even forgave Willow's own infidelity, which came about and then lasted under much more morally ambiguous circumstances. Willow acted like Oz was deliberately trying to hurt or punish her. That's where I think she was wrong. She was entitled to her feelings of hurt, but she should have given Oz more credit.

That said, Oz was wrong, too. The reason they didn't work things out was because he didn't give her a chance to come around. Again, his reasons were noble. He went to find a cure. There are great honking elements of Spike's transformation in this. Like Spike, Oz wanted to be the kind of man who "would never." He faced the worst in himself, didn't like what he saw, and so he set out to change it. He did change it, too. Ultimately, I think Oz made the right decision, and I do think Willow could have given him a little more credit for the fact that his intentions were always in the right place.

[Wiccaness]

lol If Oz didn't leave/ didn't bring up leaving, Willow would have dumped him, then and there, she wasn't going to forgive him and let things be, it was clear.

What show were you watching lol.

She wasn't going to dump him, she went to him to try and fix things between them, even though what he did was a lot worse then what happened between her and Xander.
She was ready to forgive him, might already have.
The only reason she would have dumped him later on, would be because the writers would have decided whether or not she was gay.

[GATEGOD]

What show were you watching lol.

She wasn't going to dump him, she went to him to try and fix things between them, even though what he did was a lot worse then what happened between her and Xander.
She was ready to forgive him, might already have.
The only reason she would have dumped him later on, would be because the writers would have decided whether or not she was gay.

lol what show were you watching...

She was going to dump him or want some time apart, her whole reaction through the entire ep showed it. And making out with Xander was alot worse then trying to stop someone from trying to hurt people / get killed themselves. Oz didn't want to be with the other wolf girl, he was only trying to make her lock herself in so she couldn't hurt anyone. Willow kissed Xander because she wanted to... Surely you can see the logic in why I blame Willow more then Oz...

[Wiccaness]

lol what show were you watching...

She was going to dump him or want some time apart, her whole reaction through the entire ep showed it. And making out with Xander was alot worse then trying to stop someone from trying to hurt people / get killed themselves. Oz didn't want to be with the other wolf girl, he was only trying to make her lock herself in so she couldn't hurt anyone. Willow kissed Xander because she wanted to... Surely you can see the logic in why I blame Willow more then Oz...

Sorry cant say i do...if she was going to dump him, she wouldn't have gone looking for him in his room when he was packing.

The whole Willow and Xander thing, not even as big, they were teenagers and that should have made willows and oz's relationship stronger. And prevented any of the two to do something lie that again.

I said it once and i'll say it again, if oz really wanted to protect people, or to protect Veruca from being hut o killed her could have gone to the Scoobies... They would have helped her even if she didnt want help, but he pulls her in after knowing she was a wolf for quiet sometime and mates with her.


the reaction through out the ep is willow being hurt, not willow going to dump him

[GATEGOD]

lol whatever there is no reasoning with someone who believes so strongly the exact opposite of what I believe.

[Wiccaness]

ok then ..............................

[GATEGOD]

ok then ..............................

What? You want me to keep arguing with you , lol okay, Willow was wrong, you are wrong, and there is no way she was going to be with him the next ep if Oz never left. Since Oz was leaving she tried to make him stay that is obvious, but they weren't going to be thew happy couple if he did, willow was never going to really forgive him. Oz was only trying to help the other girl, he was scared and didn't go to the others because of that. Willow had already screwed up before with Xander, you would think she would understand but she is hurt so she pushes him away. Yes, she does, she pushes him away, and he decides to leave. If willow wasn't all Hurt and 'Oz hating' almost casting a hate spell on him... come on... If she understood from the get go then Oz would never have left. She pushed him away. That is it ^_^

See... now disagree with me again ...

[Wiccaness]

What? You want me to keep arguing with you , lol okay, Willow was wrong, you are wrong, and there is no way she was going to be with him the next ep if Oz never left. Since Oz was leaving she tried to make him stay that is obvious, but they weren't going to be thew happy couple if he did, willow was never going to really forgive him. Oz was only trying to help the other girl, he was scared and didn't go to the others because of that. Willow had already screwed up before with Xander, you would think she would understand but she is hurt so she pushes him away. Yes, she does, she pushes him away, and he decides to leave. If willow wasn't all Hurt and 'Oz hating' almost casting a hate spell on him... come on... If she understood from the get go then Oz would never have left. She pushed him away. That is it ^_^

See... now disagree with me again ...

Umm i just meant ok then....we were done we both have strong opinions and i saw your point on stopping , but if you want to go along and argue more then ok then...

AND I WILL disagree with you again....

First....
How can you say that Willow was wrong, if anything she tried that hardest to save her relationship with Him. If i recall back to when they were teens Oz really didnt want anything to do with her after what he saw with her and Xander, she tried hard to talk to him,but he said fo her to leave him alone, and even after wards she tried to prove to him that she loved him, now im not saying what happened between her and Xander was right, but she tried to fix things with oz. She did understand, maybe not at first but in the end when it mattered she went to him,
i mean come one if there was some one you loved since high school, and you felt that they were being attracted to some one else, who you felt they had a lot in common with, asked if anything was going on, having them say no, and then finding them together, naked, what would you do, if you really loved them, you wouldnt be all.....Oooh its ok every thing is puppies and cotton candy clouds. .....no you would be mad hurt and just want to run away.



Second...
She didnt try to make him stay just because he was leaving, she loved him and wanted to fix things between them by talking or by showing how much she loved him, who knows, thats why she went to his room, to solve things and still be together, We dont know what would have happened in the next ep, sorry im not psychic, maybe the next day would have been a little awkward, maybe there would have been a big talk, then hugging like in the past, but i believe they would have worked things out in the end....but he missed his chance, he left her, he picked a dumb excuse and he left,

third...

the casting a spell on Oz falls under the being hurt category, but she doesnt go through with it, how is that pushing ox away, when he was no where near her and had no clue about it, she didn't do it because she loved him,


forth.
i get that maybe he was scared, and he didnt tell them, but the best he could do was lock her up with him....no no no, he could have had a separate cage or he could have put her to sleep, knock her out and then put her in a different cage, he knew about it he had time to add something to separate his cage make it in two.

[GATEGOD]

Umm i just meant ok then....we were done we both have strong opinions and i saw your point on stopping , but if you want to go along and argue more then ok then...

AND I WILL disagree with you again....

First....
How can you say that Willow was wrong, if anything she tried that hardest to save her relationship with Him. If i recall back to when they were teens Oz really didnt want anything to do with her after what he saw with her and Xander, she tried hard to talk to him,but he said fo her to leave him alone, and even after wards she tried to prove to him that she loved him, now im not saying what happened between her and Xander was right, but she tried to fix things with oz. She did understand, maybe not at first but in the end when it mattered she went to him,
i mean come one if there was some one you loved since high school, and you felt that they were being attracted to some one else, who you felt they had a lot in common with, asked if anything was going on, having them say no, and then finding them together, naked, what would you do, if you really loved them, you wouldnt be all.....Oooh its ok every thing is puppies and cotton candy clouds. .....no you would be mad hurt and just want to run away.



Second...
She didnt try to make him stay just because he was leaving, she loved him and wanted to fix things between them by talking or by showing how much she loved him, who knows, thats why she went to his room, to solve things and still be together, We dont know what would have happened in the next ep, sorry im not psychic, maybe the next day would have been a little awkward, maybe there would have been a big talk, then hugging like in the past, but i believe they would have worked things out in the end....but he missed his chance, he left her, he picked a dumb excuse and he left,

third...

the casting a spell on Oz falls under the being hurt category, but she doesnt go through with it, how is that pushing ox away, when he was no where near her and had no clue about it, she didn't do it because she loved him,


forth.
i get that maybe he was scared, and he didnt tell them, but the best he could do was lock her up with him....no no no, he could have had a separate cage or he could have put her to sleep, knock her out and then put her in a different cage, he knew about it he had time to add something to separate his cage make it in two.

lol

If Oz wasn't leaving the moment she came to his room there is no way she was really going to forgive him. Oz wasn't safe to be around, do you really want willow to be mauled to death by him... I certainly didn't He had to leave and Willow made that all the much clearer by Pushing him away ^_^ If she didn't overreact when she was upset Oz would have never had to leave. lol and if you really loved the person wouldn't you try to understand... and listen to them ... not try and curse them lol . Anyways lol I love Oz/Willow , oh and when Oz came back for her there was another chance for willow to get Oz back but she didn't want him .. Oz still wanted her...

lol there are too many flaws in your theory, and many in mine as well lol ^.^ :lmao::lmao: could they maybe have been unfair to each other lol :lmao:

[Wiccaness]

lol

If Oz wasn't leaving the moment she came to his room there is no way she was really going to forgive him.


you dont know that i dont know that....it could all have worked out but thats not what we saw and what happened

Oz wasn't safe to be around, do you really want willow to be mauled to death by him... I certainly didn't
No i really dont want Willow to be mauled by him, but then....why now...why leave now, his always been dangerous....that wasnt the first time he tried to get her it was the second or thrid atleast....if that was why he really left then he would have done this a long time ago, no he cut himself off by leaving.


He had to leave and Willow made that all the much clearer by Pushing him away ^_^ If she didn't overreact when she was upset Oz would have never had to leave. lol
Once again she didnt push him away. and she didnt over react, and her getting upset had nothing with making oz leave, she didnt leave when he broke up with her, she tried to make it up to him, something he should have tried


and if you really loved the person wouldn't you try to understand... and listen to them ... not try and curse them lol

and honestly i cant say how i would react if that happened to me, sure i would try and understand at some point but i also think i would be to hurt to think at the moment when i find them together, id be mad hurt disappointed and all that stuff to really try and understand why they did it.



Anyways lol I love Oz/Willow


I love Willow/Tara


when Oz came back for her there was another chance for willow to get Oz back but she didn't want him .. Oz still wanted her...

Ok its not like she saw Oz and was all."Oh hey oz sorry but i have a girlfriend now, so i dont want you, go pack your things and leave ok, bye"

no she was confused, pain came back, maybe even feelings came back, she tried to figure things out, and when she did it didnt fall in his favor.

lol there are too many flaws in your theory, and many in mine as well lol ^.^ :lmao::lmao: could they maybe have been unfair to each other lol :lmao:

i dont see many flaws in mine, there proably are, but id say there more on yours....all you say is that Willow pushed him away and basicly that she should have waited fo him for ever. she didnt on both,
another flaw on yours is things that we cant possibly know for sure, we both have our opinions but i use facts from the show, not from things we never saw

and maybe we're both a little biased since Oz is your favorite character and Willow's mine, but i still think she didnt push him away and all that stuff i've already said,

So sure they acted unfair to each......i still think willow was right.

[GATEGOD]

And I will always believe Oz was right.

[Wiccaness]

:nod: nice arguing with you :biggrin:

[GATEGOD]

:nod: nice arguing with you :biggrin:

lol Indeed it was, with you aswell ^_^