So Angel Can't Be a Human Ever Again?

[mikey3319]

that shang-shu thing.. it will never come true since angel signed his name with the black thorn so he cant become human?

I wish we knew what happened after the end of season 5.. eveyrone seemed to have survived

[Hit The Books]

Interesting question. Just as interesting is the idea that you can sign away a prophecy, as presented in said episode. It brings in a whole paradox and undermines the meaning of the word: a foretelling of the future. If whoever made it really could see the future then they would surely have encountered this occurrence which would thus render the prophecy a load of rubbish in the first place.

Then of course there is the question as to which vampire with a soul it refers to which would get around the paradox - if it never referred to Angel in the first place then it doesn't matter; it is still a foretelling of the future (just not Angel's).

In other words, for there to be a prophecy brought into the equation in the first place: either signing it away is futile and does not affect it, or it was never intended for Angel in the first place.

Alternatively, I may just be over thinking the whole thing :).

In any event if Angel really wanted I'm sure he could find another Morah demon and mix blood (something which always made the Shanshu Prophecy seem quite insignificant to me) - thus making him human once again. But knowing Angel's character he probably wouldn't take that option as he wouldn't feel like he'd earnt it. He does place great importance in the idea of becoming human after all.

[Angel's vision]

Well said^^^^ my thoughts exactly!

[ILLYRIAN]

So, he signed a bit of paper ?
I'm fairly sure that the good wouldn't honour the evil's bit of paper. Angel only wanted in to destroy them, so he was working for the good side anyway.

[white avenger]

The whole Angel/Shanshu/Redemption/Mortality thing never made any sense to me anyway.Angel, as was pointed out, had mortality and gave it back. His reason was that he could no longer be an effective warrior for the Light (oh, and by the way, he can't "protect" Buffy anymore, and he might even get her killed by HER trying to protect HIM) which is a crock, because we have seen plenty of completely normal humans who were quite effective demon fighters, beginning with Giles and Xander, then Riley, even after his chip/drug enhancement was removed. The other members of Angel's own team were human, and they did quite well in the vamp dusting department, even Fred. Wes compensated for his lack of physical strength by using a variety of weapons, up to and including firearms. Gunn even had his own crew of demon fighters (who, toward the end were also armed with modern weapons). Angel could have been almost as effective a demon fighter as a human as he was as a vampire. The real reason for his refusingrtality might be something else entirely.

In Los Angeles, as a vampire demon fighter, Angel had no equal. He was the champion, the Black Knight, helping the helpless. Without his vampire powers, he would be, at best, just one of several fighters. If he remained the best, it would not be by nearly the margin that he was as a vampire. Quite likely, there was an ego issue involved that he was either not conscious of or was unwilling to own up to. Despite the reasons that he gave, that might have also been a factor in his leaving Sunnydale in the first place. With Buffy there, he wasn't the alpha fighter. As Angelus, he relished the domination of his victims, avoiding real confrontations unless they were forced upon him. He was, in the most basic terms, a bully. He was afraid of and ran from Holtz, who was, granted, a skilled fighter, but still only a mortal. Angel, by his very reasons for refusing mortality in the first place, was basically no less a bully than Angelus was. They are, after all, when all is said and done, the same person.

Then the Shanshu Prophecy is introduced into the storyline, and we are supposed to believe that this is going to be Angel's Holy Grail, the reward he will receive for his years of good deeds ("It's really the redemption," he would say, "The mortality is just icing on the cake."). We are supposed to believe that suddenly Angel is not only willing to take, but is actively seeking, his mortality, including his loss of power AND his mortality. Yeah, right.

I honestly believe that Spike, on the other hand, only wants the Shanshu because Angel wants it. He doesn't strike me as the type who would give up his immortality willingly, nor do I believe he would, if he received it, consider it a reward. As much as he loves Buffy, I can't see him actually wanting to become human just to be with her. (On the other hand, that just might have been a deciding factor in why he didn't go to Europe to find her when he became corporeal. Maybe he stayed in LA on the hopes of becoming the man she deserved, even to the point of seeking out his mortality the same way he sought out his soul. I'd never thought about that until just now. That might be something to explore in another thread). On the other hand, Spike hates Angel, and has been dominated by him for decades, and taking the Shanshu away from him would suit him just fine.

[NecroAngel]

I think sometimes, simply the creation of an episode hasn't been given enough thought. 'I will remember you' was a good episode in my opinion, but the whole Morah demon's blood making the Shansu prophesy insignificant thing was terrible, and simply bad writing. You could say Angel just wanted to earn his mortality instead of getting it easily like that, or something, but that's a cop-out and the only reason he didn't is because... how boring would it be if Angel became a 'regular' human so early on? It'd ruin the show. I really dislike the Morah demon idea. Why not keep some Morah blood lying around to give to people like Darla? Or just vampires that were annoying them?

What was he supposed to do to earn mortality, anyway? After he had earned it, there'd still be evil/demons in the world I'm guessing... so him being turned into a human then would be no different from in 'I will remember you,' as there'd still be a bunch of people to save, but since he'd be a human he'd be less capable.

His other excuse, thinking Buffy would die and he couldn't protect her and such wasn't very good either - I think Angel would usually disregard TPTB, be happy with Buffy, and try and save her when the time comes. They all have to die eventually, might as well enjoy the time they have. And yeah, as said previously, plenty of humans have been decent fighters.

[white avenger]

Yeah, the whole Morah demon thing would've been better off never being done. It would have lent a lot more credence to what happened later. I always hoped for a follow up story where Buffy had her memory restored and kicked Angel's ass for doing it. They did that later with Connor in Angel Season 5, but I guess that was just a coincidence.

[SARArb]

Yeah i was always wondering... if angel wanted so much to be human again he just has to find a Morah deamon. :/ so... angel doesn't want it too much after all... ?

[Clem Rocks]

Maybe by signing away the Shanshu, he fulfiiled it. Would a vampire give up the one thing in the world they wanted the most? Probably not, but a human would...

[Black Eye Guy]

The whole Morah demon things makes perfect sense, Angel being made human was to be a reward for this fighting the good fight, and makeing up for his past crimes.

Angel wouldn't want to take the easy way out, it was to be his reward.

[ILLYRIAN]

I can't remember the details, if you get the demons blood in your system: are you reborn, are you reborn as is, are you reborn but bigger and stronger. When the Morah demon came back he was meant to be bigger and stronger, so why was Angel the same size and human ie. weaker. The demon came back a demon so why didn't the vampire ?

[Clem Rocks]

If you think about it, Angel never signed his name on the Shanshu, he signed "Angel", his name is Liam

[Blondie Bear]

If you think about it, Angel never signed his name on the Shanshu, he signed "Angel", his name is Liam

That's the name his father gave him, true. But he's gone by Angel or Angelus for much longer than he went by Liam, and I'd think that long use would attach a name to you as firmly as being given it at birth would.

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

yeah, but if the writers are ever looking for a way to get him out of it, as they often try to do things like that, thats actually a pretty smart way to do it.

[Ashxking]

On most legal documents you have to sign your birth name.

[Hit The Books]

But, as Blondie said, the prophecy refers to the vampire with a soul. Vampires often talk about becoming one as if it is a new birth - which it is, in a sense: the birth of the demon within, complete with the symbolic act of forcing their way out of their graves (often). As well as this in the Buffyverse it's generally accepted that vampires start counting their age anew from this point.

The vampire was christened Angelus. The vampire with a soul was Angel. That's the name he went by and others used etc. so for all intents and purposes, signing it would - I imagine - constitute an agreement.

[nerd4hire]

Yeah, I get that. The vampire with a soul signed an agreement for the vampire with a soul.

How about this for a loophole then. Angel signed the agreement saying he relinguished any right to the prophecy, and in return he would be made a member of the Circle of Blackthorn, but there is no Circle of Blackthorn. Would this nullify the agreement?

[Clem Rocks]

Yeah, I get that. The vampire with a soul signed an agreement for the vampire with a soul.

How about this for a loophole then. Angel signed the agreement saying he relinguished any right to the prophecy, and in return he would be made a member of the Circle of Blackthorn, but there is no Circle of Blackthorn. Would this nullify the agreement?

Seeing as Angel is still a member, surely now he is the last living(If you can call him living) member, he himself is the circle?

[nerd4hire]

Assuming that's true, can't he rip up the contract? The contract was made with the Circle of Blackthorn not Wolfram & Hart.

[Clem Rocks]

Where were the Circle of the Black Thorn meetings held? If they were in the Wolfram and Hart, LA Branch building, the contract would either be destroyed or buried in the rubble by now.

And if Angel really wanted to screw the contract up, he could just make Spike a member, then the only two that could Shanshu, can't.

Although i always thought that after Angel signing the Shanshu away, a good plot idea would be to have Gunn sired and then Shanshu straight away, leaving both Angel and Spike screwed over

[alexa]

How is signing a prophecy an agreement... anywhere? It's not a legal document, it's not even a legally binding verbal contract. I just don't buy anything said by a bunch of evil guys with an agenda. Having said that, I think it's characteristic of Angel's character to give up what he wants the most for the benefit of others.

[Blondie Bear]

How is signing a prophecy an agreement... anywhere? It's not a legal document, it's not even a legally binding verbal contract.

Very good point. He did just sign his name across the top of the prophecy document, didn't he? They told him it was so that he wasn't in the running for becoming human again, but that doesn't make it so. It might even have done the opposite; his blood on the scroll might have solidified his connection to the prophecy. (Pure speculation, of course.) For a group of people who are usually so thorough when it comes to binding legal contracts, they really slipped up this time!

[Bored of the Dead]

Very good point. He did just sign his name across the top of the prophecy document, didn't he? They told him it was so that he wasn't in the running for becoming human again, but that doesn't make it so. It might even have done the opposite; his blood on the scroll might have solidified his connection to the prophecy. (Pure speculation, of course.) For a group of people who are usually so thorough when it comes to binding legal contracts, they really slipped up this time!

Hmm, I like how you ended that.

For a group of people who are usually so thorough when it comes to binding legal contracts, they really slipped up this time

A group of demons that work so closely with contracts/law/documents to make such an error - does that seem likely.

Its not like they were hoodwinked, they set this up and now its possible that they've made an error.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe Angel signed away anything, just a belief in it.

[boreanaz]

(Angel) was a human in his own show , although , I think he made the right choice , going back to being a vampire , also , I think , if (Buffy & Anegl) just took the time to be together and work on it , they could of been great together , also , Iv got a thing for vampire's , well , actully , only (Angel).

[Ashxking]

What about Deres (sp). He was in a way forced to sign the contract and had no real intention of being in the COTBT

[ILLYRIAN]

One of the problems about legally binding documents, if you sign your name or make your mark below what is written above, you are seen to be in agreeance with what is written above and it is a legally binding document, that's one of the reasons for signing the last line, so that nothing else can be added.
As for what it's written on, that makes no difference. As long as the required info is present, a cheque can be on a house-brick, or a cow.

As previously posted I don't agree with him signing their stuff anyway, legalities don't come into the good verses bad thing.

[palabravampiress]

Here's a thought.

What if he already Sanshued and already gave it up? What if the Sanshu prophecy referred to the Morah demon thing? It says the vampire with a soul will play a major role in the apocalypse. It says the vampire with a soul will get to be human. But does it say definitively in what order those events will occur?

[Keanoite]

I don't see how he could have signed it away. Shanshu was his reward, his gift from the Powers but he hadn't recieved it yet, so how can he relinguish ownership when it was the powers that owned it when he signed the contract. I think it is still his for the taking.

[Joyce Summers]

Didn't Joss say in an interview once that if he had continued Angel past season 5 TV-wise then he stated it would have played out that Angel would have lost an arm, Gunn died (or was turned) and Spike got the prophecy...

[GATEGOD]

Didn't Joss say in an interview once that if he had continued Angel past season 5 TV-wise then he stated it would have played out that Angel would have lost an arm, Gunn died (or was turned) and Spike got the prophecy...

maybe but that would suck and no one would want to watch, or read that.

[Joyce Summers]

Haha, nice counter argument there. But that's what I read somewhere. Might be on Whedonverse or something. I think it would be cool if Spike was the one the prophecy was *always* talking about, but no one had realized. That would be fabulous irony. haha

[Keanoite]

maybe but that would suck and no one would want to watch, or read that.

No maybe..IT WOULD SUCK BEYOND THE TELLING OF IT!!!!!!

[Joyce Summers]

I'm guessin Joss should be glad he *didn't* get to write that then given the initial reaction, haha.

[Keanoite]

I don't know about Joss but I'm happy!

[angeldork]

This topic has always been intriguing to me. The fact that so easily Angel can sign his name in his own blood on the Shanshu prophecy and have it then be meaningless now. But my ideas on the subject might be kinda creative I don't know. See I think the Black Thorn know that you can't just sign a prophecy away like it was nothing. I think that maybe they were trying to have Angel think that. They wanted Angel to sign his name on that prophecy to really see that he has converted to the side of evil. They would know that if he hadn't signed his name on that prophecy that it was all just an act. Cause to them a thing with a soul always has something to look forward to, if you take that thing away then they no longer have anything to look forward to. I think that it was all just a mind game. And I really don't think that that prophecy is in no regards to Spike at all and I'll explain. See when Spike left after he tried to rape Buffy and failed he wanted to get back at her. He essentially wanted to kill her. When he went to the demon trials he asked for that demon to take the chip out of his head so that he would be evil again and would be able to finally kill Buffy, the object of his obsession. Now how at the end of the trials he got a soul is way beyond me. But him getting a soul was never Spike's intention. So I think that the prophecy plainly refers to Angel. Also seeing as now every good thing that Spike has ever done, he's done it with a motive that only suits himself.

[thegifting]

...it was all just an act.
This is what I've always thought. I believe that, if anything, his signing it is the 'Cup of Perpetual Torment' that Spike finally triumphed for, but Angel wan the war for. Also, despite the recurring theme in the series of good not bringing good, evil not bringing evil, but your intentions and purposes being worth something, even if it's shitty and not much, that Angel showing that his role in 'the' apocalypse isn't motivated by his own selfish gains, final proof that he is THE vampire champion with a soul.

Though the fact that he could fight for evil and still be made human is quite wicked.

[TheHeartist]

I could see the Liam/Angel name issue being used in future. As for the whole Morah demon issue, I agree with the Angel not wanting to lose the thing that made him different argument. I think even as a human, he still would have been the best fighter in the group, surely the centuries of fighting and conflict has Angel's combat abilities far ahead of anyone else in the Angel series on terms of pure skill?

[palabravampiress]

I could see the Liam/Angel name issue being used in future. As for the whole Morah demon issue, I agree with the Angel not wanting to lose the thing that made him different argument. I think even as a human, he still would have been the best fighter in the group, surely the centuries of fighting and conflict has Angel's combat abilities far ahead of anyone else in the Angel series on terms of pure skill?

Good point about the Liam/Angel thing.

Also, yes... Angel has to have some serious skills, even as a human. I think the trouble might come in with the fact that he developed those skills as a vampire. As such, he didn't learn how to fight as a human with human limits. I don't think human Angel would/will know when to back down, and I think that could get him hurt or killed in a hurry.

[TheHeartist]

Good point about the Liam/Angel thing.

Also, yes... Angel has to have some serious skills, even as a human. I think the trouble might come in with the fact that he developed those skills as a vampire. As such, he didn't learn how to fight as a human with human limits. I don't think human Angel would/will know when to back down, and I think that could get him hurt or killed in a hurry.

On the contrary, I think Angel would realise all too well the dangers of fighting as a human. He is surrounded by them, and stalked and murdered hundreds as Angeleus over the years. And to hunt one's prey, you have to know them inside out.