errrmmm.. question?

[eunsoma]

when you think about it, Angel is a pedophile!!! Does anyone think its kinda wrong that a 250 odd year old vampire is dating and later sleeping with a 16 year old girl?? He is like 15 times her age!!

[definition of insane]

Umm...yeah, that's not entirely true...she wasn't 16 when they slept together...and I have no idea what the legal age in America is.

Also, I'm sure that a pedophile is actually categorised as someone who is attracted to underage people as a personal taste. Angel's not into kids or teens as a general statement...he was into Buffy.

[ILLYRIAN]

As I remember it, a vampire is meant to stay the same as when the human is sired, so in theory Angel is in his mid to late twenties.

[white avenger]

As I remember it, a vampire is meant to stay the same as when the human is sired, so in theory Angel is in his mid to late twenties.

So you're saying that a 25 to 30 year old man would be a suitable boyfriend for your 16 or 17 year old daughter? No wonder Joyce never liked him! (and before you even THINK about going , yes, Spike was too old for her, too, but Joyce knew and liked him before anything "happened" between them, and she was dead by the time it did)

[Bored of the Dead]

Angel was attracted to Buffy the moemnt he saw her, which we are told is the year before WTTHM, so that would put her at 14/15(depending on the time of year). If that is the case then it goes into iffy territory.
You only have to be attracted to one underage person to qualify as a paedo, however in the UK(I don't know for the states or anywhere else - for example there are parts fo spain that has the lgal age of 14) to be a paedophile means you are sexually aroused and attracted to someone(or more) UNDER 12.
Thats not saying sleeping with someone 12 - 16 is legal(especially if you are older than 18 months difference between yourself and the person underage), just that paedos are 12 and under lovers.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

I wouldn't call him a pheodophile, I mean, they fell in love with each other. And so, he was roughly 200 years older than her, but, it would never happen in real life right? And, since I told my friend this, I guess I have to stick by it - =P - when you're in love, age is just a number, I mean, think about Anya and Xander, she's 1124 when they first sleep together, and he's 19...That's a waaay bigger age gap =P

[Buffy Summers]

So you're saying that a 25 to 30 year old man would be a suitable boyfriend for your 16 or 17 year old daughter? No wonder Joyce never liked him! (and before you even THINK about going , yes, Spike was too old for her, too, but Joyce knew and liked him before anything "happened" between them, and she was dead by the time it did)
If you're going to condemn Angel, you ahve to condemn Spike as well.

In New York, the age of consent is 17.

[Bored of the Dead]

If you're going to condemn Angel, you ahve to condemn Spike as well.

In New York, the age of consent is 17.

But didn't Spikes attraction only really start in season 4, when Buffy was 18?

Granted Drusilla suggests that the Slayer was already in his blood in season 2/3 but that was more a fixation because she was the Slayer, one he really was shocked by how good she was.

[Buffy Summers]

I thought the point being made was that they are two VERY old men going after a teen *shrugs*...but Buffy was 17 when Angel slept with her, so technically it was stat rape. Age of consent in California is 18.

[Bored of the Dead]

I thought the point being made was that they are two VERY old men going after a teen *shrugs*...but Buffy was 17 when Angel slept with her, so technically it was stat rape. Age of consent in California is 18.

I'm not even sure what the point is either, all I know is that technically, in the UK, neither would be paedophiles(though thats what they would be called) even if we take for granted that Angel had sexual desires(which are not uncommon when you are romantically in love with someone) for her from the moment he first saw her.

I do agree with Obsessed Buffy Fan that age, generally, shouldn't be an issue. OK, it's a little bit iffy with the ages we are talking aboout, but heck its definitely not a real world situation and Buffy was definitely older than she was in maturity levels because of her being 'called'.

I do also really like the point that OBF brings up about Xander and Anya. Not because its an issue, but Xander not only likes the demon ladies, he also likes the older ladies - brilliant.

[ILLYRIAN]

I'm not to conversant with the strange [strange as in I don't know what they are] laws in the USA, in the countries I've lived in the age of Buffy would not have been a problem, but I digress. My point was that as in my view a 27 year old Angel wasn't a paedolfile. Should Spike be taken the same way, yes.
To my way of thinking a 25 year old man and a 17 year old girl is not a problem as white avenger seems to disagree with, it would be hypocritical of me as they are the same ages when I started dating my ex-wife.

[alexa]

I never really got the point of this argument other then people like to say 'Angel bad; Spike good' (or the opposite). I'm not threated by Spike because I happen to like Buffy more with Angel (sometimes).

I guess if you think it's creepy then that was your experience.. I thought it was sweet, and he in no way forced or led her into the relationship, he wasn't manipulative, and you don't see him going around coming onto teenagers as soon as Buffy reaches adulthood. He sleeps with her again when she's 18 (IWRY), and he still wants to be with her when she's 22 so... yeah. It's pretty obvious that the writers never intended for it to be 'creepy'... it's a fantasy show for goodness[insert swear word]sake!

Age of consent in Australia is 15, so maybe that is why I see it differently. Also I was under the impression that Angel was 18 when he was turned (re: Halloween)... I guess they never put that in concrete.

[MLLamble]

HE IS NOT A PEDOPHILE!!!!!!! Buffy was 15 when he fell in love with her, at which time she was more or less physically and sexually mature. In short, she could physically give birth to children, and so being attracted to her would be natural. It's this instinct that causes people to get together and have kids, thus continuing our species.
Also, I think a pedophile is someone who is attracted to children (pre-puberty).

[Lindsey McDonald]

You must remember, 200 odd years ago when Angel was sired. it was perfectly common for men to marry girls that were, like, 8 or something, so it isn't really applicable. Spike only loved her when she was 18/19, plus a super mature Slayer, so it desn't really apply to them ether.

[Supergirl]

To be honest, I didn't ever really think about the fact that Buffy was unmistakingly much younger than Angel; I only saw the love they had for eachother. Obviously, they had both thought about it and ultimately, the age difference was a major reason for their break-up in S3, but early on in their relationship, I don't think it mattered that much

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

i thought about it once or twice and thought, ew. but it seems by everyones reactions that what country you grow up in and the rules you are used to affects all of our views. but heck, i <3 older men (my boyfriend is 7 years older). Just not..like...200+years older lol. and yeah how old WAS angel supposed to be (as in, when he was turned).

[doppelgänger]

Pedophile? Technically, no. Strange? Kinda. But then again... it's fiction. And as Buffy once said "strange love is better than no love at all" :)

[wiccianslayer]

um just so you know spike was hot for buffy as soon as he saw her or didn't you watch the bit in school hard when he was watching her dance at the bronze

[white avenger]

If you're going to condemn Angel, you ahve to condemn Spike as well.

In New York, the age of consent is 17.

At the time that Angel and Buffy slept together (Season 2) she was 16. If we consider Angel to be suspended at his human age, that would make him the equivalent of 25-30 years old, or almost twice her age. For a high school sophomore, that's pushing it a little.

In Season 6, when Buffy and Spike first tore the house down, she was about 20, a young adult by anyone's standards, and Spike was the equivalent of a 25 year old man (I believe either Marsters or Whedon mentioned that age somewhere, or maybe I'm just imagining it).

Comparing the two, Spike/Buffy seems a bit more "proper" to me.

If it's of any interest, the age of consent in Georgia is 18, so, at least here, Angel was the one who bedded the jail bait.

[wiccianslayer]

here in england/birmingham the consent age is 16 but they are talking about putting it down to 14

[Bored of the Dead]

here in england/birmingham the consent age is 16 but they are talking about putting it down to 14

The reason they are talking about it isn't because under 14's are more sexually aware, its a fight back at the fact the age of Homosexual Consent was dropped to 16.

I am a religious person, but sometimes it annoys me at the level of pettiness prevalent within the faiths.

There, in my mind, is no reason to lower the age from 16 to 14.

I was all for the equal age of consent being 16 but there willl never ever be a justification for the age to be lowered to 14.

Sorry about the off topic - in fact i'ma start a new thread about it.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

well not my country but..14 seems way too young. I know kids are having sex younger and younger but the scary thing is they are still kids. Granted we all have a right to make our own choices. But i think 14 is starting to push it.

[~angelic slayer~]

At the time that Angel and Buffy slept together (Season 2) she was 16. If we consider Angel to be suspended at his human age, that would make him the equivalent of 25-30 years old, or almost twice her age. For a high school sophomore, that's pushing it a little.

In Season 6, when Buffy and Spike first tore the house down, she was about 20, a young adult by anyone's standards, and Spike was the equivalent of a 25 year old man (I believe either Marsters or Whedon mentioned that age somewhere, or maybe I'm just imagining it).

Comparing the two, Spike/Buffy seems a bit more "proper" to me.

If it's of any interest, the age of consent in Georgia is 18, so, at least here, Angel was the one who bedded the jail bait.

Just wanted to point out, the episode "Surprise" actually occurred on Buffy's 17th Birthday, so she was 17. And if I recall, Angel was about 25 or 26 when he was sired, so that's a max of 9 nine years APPEARANCE difference. Keep in mind, at this point Angel is around 250 years old, in reality.

Which leaves him with very few dating options in his own age group ;)

And even if he dated a 26 year old Buffy, she still hasn't been around nearly as long as he is, and a 225ish year difference is a lot. And yes, I know, he looks like a 25 year old but that's the whole point of vampires: they always look the same age, no matter how old they actually are. I'm not saying he should go after 12 year old girls on those grounds (there is a level of common sense, and laws, to go by), but I think Buffy was more than old enough to make her own decisions about her sex life (otherwise I'm sure the writers wouldn't have allowed it).


And in Canada, the system is a bit confusing, but this situation (a 17 year old and someone older, with consent) as far as I know is legal, so he couldn't wind up jail bait here in the good 'ole Canada (although maybe if anyone could find the ones from 1997 CAL, that would be the most revelant ;)).

It really is all in person opinion though, I myself find it acceptable, under the circumstances, but if someone doesn't think so I can understand that too.

[Aussie]

I was under the impression that Angel was sired at a younger age then Spike? I thought Angel was closer to late teens/early 20s when he was turned and that Spike was in his 20s to late 20s?

I saw past the age difference between Buffy and Angel. Not much was taken litrally with their relationship - remember the holding heart speach?

[RogueHunter]

Well Angel is technically dead, so does that make Buffy a necrophiliac?
And I don't think there is a legal age of consent between a teenager and a corpse of any age. Since Liam died when he was turned, his age stopped there. Angelus was infused with a soul becoming Angel, not quite Liam, not quite Angelus so at best he's only 90. Thats not quite as bad as 240.
Incidentally, most of your models on magazine covers are teenagers.
That being said, sex with someone under the age of consent is tacky. Sex with someone considerably younger than you AND under age is disgusting and harmful to them.

[Cangel]

I always just assumed the age of consent in America was 17 because Buffy slept with Angel exactly when she turned 17. Guess I was wrong.
Here in Germany the age of consent is 16, so they could've done what they wanted together, even when they first met in WTTHM.
And I don't think it's that creepy. Like many have already pointed out, Angel is not 200+ in the sense of real age, technically he's somewhere in his twenties forever. Well, and Buffy was 16/17/(later 18). When I was 18 (okay, I still am, but I mean younger 18) I dated a guy who's 28. Is that creepy? So maybe I'm a little bit biased when I say the whole Bangel age gap was not that bad.
Oh, and when one of my friends was 16, she was dating this guy...I never met him but from what others told me he was about in his early thirties. Okay, I think that was maybe a little weird, and see, worse than Bangel.
Ohhh and another thing (I just keep getting new ideas what to write here): that's a great reason to support Cangel and Spuffy...the age gap has shrunken ;)

[Keanoite]

I think this is absurd to be honest. It's not as if Angel lured Buffy into his car with sweets. When he was turned he was 25/26 years old. When he and Buffy slept together she was 17. Thats 9 years of a difference appearence wise. If you are going to harp on about the ickyness of Angel well you can throw Spike and Anya in their with them. I mean if we really want to get into it we could talk about Dawn's bed buddy in the comic I mean she is actually only 3/4 years old. Does it make that guy a peadophile? Buffy and Angel were in love, there was nothing sinister about it.

[white avenger]

I think this is absurd to be honest. It's not as if Angel lured Buffy into his car with sweets. When he was turned he was 25/26 years old. When he and Buffy slept together she was 17. Thats 9 years of a difference appearence wise. If you are going to harp on about the ickyness of Angel well you can throw Spike and Anya in their with them. I mean if we really want to get into it we could talk about Dawn's bed buddy in the comic I mean she is actually only 3/4 years old. Does it make that guy a peadophile? Buffy and Angel were in love, there was nothing sinister about it.


She was a high school junior when "it" happened, so she was more likely 16, but 16 or 17, she was still a minor. Angel might not be a pedophile, but he was still guilty of statutory rape, which would get him a quite lengthy sentence in a state correctional institute.

[Cangel]

She was a high school junior when "it" happened, so she was more likely 16, but 16 or 17, she was still a minor. Angel might not be a pedophile, but he was still guilty of statutory rape, which would get him a quite lengthy sentence in a state correctional institute.


She was definitely 17, as it was her birthday and the year after that we know she turned 18 (because of the Cruciamentum or however it's spelled).
And other than that, we also have to keep in mind Angel is from another time. In the 18th centruy, when he grew up, it was probably perfectly normal if a girl Buffy's age was already married to a 30+ male. So he probably has other values and definitions concerning when somebody can be considered grown up.

[white avenger]

She was definitely 17, as it was her birthday and the year after that we know she turned 18 (because of the Cruciamentum or however it's spelled).
And other than that, we also have to keep in mind Angel is from another time. In the 18th centruy, when he grew up, it was probably perfectly normal if a girl Buffy's age was already married to a 30+ male. So he probably has other values and definitions concerning when somebody can be considered grown up.


Regardless of the customs Angel grew up with, the current laws remain the same. Statutory rape is having sexual relations with someone under the legal age of consent, which is 18 in Georgia, and I assume it is the same in California, though some California resident here might correct me if I'm wrong. That makes what Angel and Buffy did at that time a felony on Angel's part, regardless of whether Buffy consented (obviously she did) or not.

[Cangel]

Regardless of the customs Angel grew up with, the current laws remain the same. Statutory rape is having sexual relations with someone under the legal age of consent, which is 18 in Georgia, and I assume it is the same in California, though some California resident here might correct me if I'm wrong. That makes what Angel and Buffy did at that time a felony on Angel's part, regardless of whether Buffy consented (obviously she did) or not.

well yea, but the original question was if Angel was a paedophile, and that's why I brougt the matter of growing up in a different time up.
I think someone here already mentioned the age of consent in CA was 18, so you're right there. But that's also another thing, if no one ever complains about the two of them sleeping together at this point, it's not really a problem, is it?

And just a general thing: Are there different ages of consent all over the US? How confusing! On a episode of Desperate Housewives I heard it was 17, in Georgia it's apparently 18, if you're in a different state, how are you supposed to know what you're allowed to do and what not?

[Blondie Bear]

Check out the laws of the state, I suppose. In Hawaii it's 16 (though the mayor a few years ago was trying to bump it to 14--ick!). The laws here in VA are a bit more fuzzy, but the nominal age of consent is 18.

[white avenger]

I realize that the original question concerned the yea or nay of Angel's pedophilia, I just tossed the "age of consent" thing in to offer an alternative. Both are crimes punishable by healthy prison sentences, and both of which would be an obvious death sentence for a vampire. The man's taking his life in his hands, either way.

[palabravampiress]

Interesting debate.

I do think the ickiness level here has a lot to do with where you live. In the U.S., laws vary a little from state to state and, in some cases, newer age of consent laws out-and-out contradict laws about the legal age of marriage (legal with parental consent, of course). In other cases, age of consent laws designed to protect minors from being preyed upon by significantly older adults work to imprison perfectly normal 18-year-olds for sleeping with their high school sweethearts. In general, though, 18 is the cutoff for people living in the U.S.

This "happened" in the U.S. in the late 90s, so you can't apply laws or attitudes from other countries or time periods. In the U.S. at that time and presently, a lot of 18-year-old high school seniors are nervous about laws like that and won't look twice at a sophomore (like Buffy) because of it. 18 - 19 is regarded as a pretty dangerous age for dating, especially for young men. That's not to say those laws are heavily enforced in such cases. They're not. Usually, they're only enforced if the parents of the minor dislike the adult or have their heads stuck in the sand about their minor child's culpability or consent. Most people, however, are pretty clear about the fact that their 16 - 19-year-old kids are having sex and don't send anyone to jail over it. For example: technically, my husband broke those laws. When he turned 18, his girlfriend (who had a summer birthday and was only 1 year below him in school) was still 16. The girl's parents approved of the relationship, though, and would never have dreamed of sending him to jail. But the fact remains that, in the U.S., 18-year-old high school seniors can be and sometimes are sent to jail for having sex with high school sophomores.

In this environment, then, the age difference between Angel and Buffy is pretty darn squicky. A man in his mid-twenties would definitely be sent to prison for sleeping with a high school sophomore. That's where the ickiness factor comes in. Add a couple of centuries into the mix, and I can see why Americans tend to find it a little distasteful, even if they can look past it for the sake of the story. In the U.S., a non-high-school-student having sex with a high-school-student is generally considered a crime.

[randiann]

One point: Pedophiles prey on children. Buffy, at the age of 17, is not a child. She may be young, but it's two totally different things. If she was 12-13, then yeah he'd be a pedophile. But 17 is old enough to realize what she is doing. Plus their circumstances were pretty extraordinary. It's not like Angel was some creepy 25 year old dude going to all the high school parties to try and pick up chicks.

FYI OK's age of consent laws are tricky. It's 16 if the other party is either 18 or 19 (I can't rememeber) or younger, but 18 if the other party is over that age. Something like that.....

[Kana]

Wow there is, a lot here.

I'm really more interested in the psychological aspects of their relationship rather than the legal technicalities. The reason being we are talking about human laws and as Lindsay said, they don't necessarily apply because (as far as I know) they don't acknowledge the existence of vampires. At best it's a grey area and I don't wish to get bogged down too much on such an issue because it starts to lose meaning to me.

It's a weird one really because a lot of people have talked about Angel looking like a 26 year old and growing up in a different time. This is true. Angel does (or supposed to) look 26 and indeed he was born in 1727. I'm actually not sure what was the norm in terms of age differences in relationships so I cannot say what was the norm in Angel's time, but certainly we all agree that Angel comes from a different age.

So does this make their relationship less disturbing? Well from Buffy's perspective Angel just seems like a yummy older guy. No real problems there, but of course we are talking about Angel's perspective and this is an important point to make. The problem with the concept of Angel looking 26 is that he's not. He's not 26, he's lived a lot longer than that. He's lived several lifetimes and Buffy was only beginning one. Of course we also know that vampires are not frozen in time. Angel and Spike dispite their foibles are more or less up to date and conscious about what it going on around them. Angel is no longer an 18th century drunken lout and certainly Spike seems relatively up to date and would rather watch an episode of Dawson's Creek than engage in some ancient ritual. Even if we were to say that Angel was more 'backward' in that respect, that has little to do with him being a vampire and more to do with his individual personality.

Even Angel himself seems more contemporary, in the way he dresses and acts and talks. He also refers to Xander as a kid. Now dispite the fact he's trying not to act jealous, he's clearly aware of the perception of Xander being a kid and of course he mirrored this when he said that Faith was little more than a child. While he doesn't see himself as a kid (WML) and is self aware in terms of his age, the question becomes, how does he see Buffy? I wont spend anytime on the paedophile argument because it's been generally agreed that, it is an attraction to prepubescents and Buffy clearly wasn't that, but while she was the Slayer she was still young and had yet to mature. Perhaps, and we can only guess, but her being a Slayer places her out of sorts with girls her age. She can talk about shopping but she mostly engages in conversation about the supernatural. Perhaps the psychological differences between adolescence and adults occur through the biological and social differences that may arise. Adults will tend to have more in common with other adults and teenagers likewise, culture and lifestyle and peers can all affect this.

Buffy and Angel are so far removed from this paradigm that it makes it hard to judge them by this standard. None of us are immortal soulled vampires so we can only look from the outside and use our own biases templates.

Did I find it icky? No. Do I now? A little because as someone in my early twenties, looking at someone in the teens seems disturbing. I am product of my environment. I couldn't help but feel creepy if I were standing outside the gates of a school watching a 15 year old however 'pure' I told myself the love I had for her was, but I'm not Angel and love is not the same for everyone.

[Jules]

On a slight side note, I find it intersting that as people get older its more acceptable for there to be a bigger age gap between couples. For example, someone whose 24 going out with someone whose 34 isn't altogether frowned upon but someone who is 24 going out with someone of 14 is considered wrong. I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just saying its interesting.

Back on topic. I don't think Angel is wrong in his feelings or actions. He doesn't manipulate Buffy into feeling or acting the way she does. She's an adult in her own right and she makes up her own mind. If she's old enough to die to save the world then she's old enough to chose when she sleeps with someone.

Also, I think with vampire romances you have to over look the age difference other wise they wouldn't be so good to watch or read :)