Am I The Only One Who Hated Season 6?

[ByandBy]

I want to start out by apologizing for the long post I have been thinking a lot about this season and what I wanted to say I’m sure I’m about to make a lot of people mad that is not my intension I’m just posting my thoughts on this season so here I go.

I can not stand season 6 I just finished watching it again with my husband per his request and I have the same feelings I originally had watching this season I find the Buffy/Spike relationship incomprehensible and disgusting.
Buffy has always been my least favorite character in the series I did not hate her I just chose to ignore her rudeness, complete self involvement, and basically b*tchy attitude because after all she is the slayer the chosen one.
However after watching season 6 I can not stand Buffy and I have mixed feelings when it comes to the scoobies. As far as I’m concerned the series should have ended with the season 5 finale.

I will start with the scoobies: Xander never liked Angel or Spike but he never hit Angel or talked trash to Angel and was never rude towards Angel so why is he to Spike? is it because he knows Spike can not do anything to him?
ok Angel killed Jenny Calendar in season 2 and Giles forgave him(?) and then even helped him when he came back in season 3 in fact they all forgave him and got over it and treated him just like they did in season one. It was like all was forgiven I just do not see where the evil things Spike has done is any worse than what Angel has done so why do the scoobies treat Angel so great and Spike so Disdainful?

Now on to Season 6:
Towards the end of season five it appeared the scoobies had accepted Spike or at least accepted him as much as they ever would it also appeared that Buffy and Spike had come to an understanding where he realized Buffy did not love him and would never love him but she treated him with respect and he was okay with that they all helped each other out and appeared to have some kind of truce when season 6 started they were all working together Spike included Spike also watched Dawn etc. but as soon as Buffy is brought back they turn on Spike and treat him like trash all of them. and I do not understand why they always treat him like this. I know at this point Spike still does not have a soul but he has done so many good things and has helped them alot and continues to do so even after Buffy has died It seems to me after everything the scoobies forgave/got over Angel doing they could have acted differently towards Spike.

Anyways back to season 6 the first few episodes are okay in my opinion not great but okay but OMWF is where my opinion of season 6 and Buffy starts to turn. In OMWF Spike basically tells Buffy to stop visiting him he doesn’t want to play her games anymore and if she cant love him leave him alone but at the end of this episode she kisses him so at this point she starts to lead him on (I think this is the episode that gives him hope that Buffy has feelings for him and she may start to love him) in the episode Tabula Rasa Spike wants to talk about their kiss and Buffy blows him off again at the end of the episode Buffy seeks Spike out after he turned to leave the bronze after she basically ignores him when he is standing there looking at her and again she initiates another kissing session at the bronze again leading him on further
Then in Smashed at the beginning Spike tries to talk to Buffy about what has been happening between them with the kissing she ends up punching him unprovoked and calling him an evil disgusting thing because as she points out he has no soul Buffy then initiates sex at the end of the episode This is the point where I’m totally unable to stand Buffy there is no question Spike loves Buffy and she could care less in fact she makes it clear she regards him as nothing. (I know we as viewers are suppose to feel sorry for Buffy and what she is going threw in her life however I could care less) also in this episode we find out Spike could kill Buffy as his chip no longer works on her I do not see what keeps him from killing her other than he loves her I mean really the others do not know his chip does not work on Buffy so he could have killed her and got away with it and sometimes I really wish he would have (Yeah I know I’m setting myself up to be bashed but I do not care Im just voicing my opinion) I do enjoy the interaction between Xander and Spike in the episode Gone in which Spike is having sex with an invisible Buffy and Xander comes in that scene is hilarious.

Dead Things is the episode I have the biggest problem with and the episode makes me totally hate Buffy with a passion the alley scene is revolting the way Buffy beats Spike when he tries to stop her from turning herself in for a murder she did not commit she is telling him he is a dirty evil disgusting thing with no soul but in my opinion Buffy’s action are disgusting she has a soul and she beats someone who loves her so brutally Spike is not fighting back he just takes the beating then she just leaves him in the alley after she realizes what she has done and she has no remorse what so ever I do not care what anyone says if Spike was totally evil he would have killed her here I know I would have and her beating him is never touched on again no one ever forgives him for the horrible things he has done in his past but Buffy and the scoobies can do what ever horrendous things they see fit and it is always okay.

The scene in as you were when Buffy wants Spike to tell her he loves her and wants her is heart breaking because I believe he truly loves her and she wants to hear this to make herself feel better because as usual its always about Buffy and what Buffy wants.
The episode Entropy is okay I do not like how everyone is mad at Spike for sleeping with Anya I mean Anya made her own decision to sleep with him it wasn’t like Spike made Anya sleep with him I find Buffy’s reaction to the situation horrifying she has been telling him to move on she can not and does not love him then when it appears he is she gets all p*ssed about it and I can not stand Dawns conversation with Spike how dare she make Spike feel bad for sleeping with Anya I mean Buffy has been telling him all along he is an evil disgusting thing he is beneath her and she wants nothing to do with him.
And finally Seeing Red the attempted rape scene I too agree rape is a terrible thing and no one deserves to be raped however I agree with the others who have stated that Spike did not go to her house to rape her I believe he wanted to apologize for sleeping with Anya (why he wanted to apologize is beyond me) I believe he lost control Buffy’s mind games, mixed signals, and treatment of him, did a number on him and he finally broke. I by no means think his actions were right but I do understand he had a breaking point and he finally reached it. It seems to me Buffy, Giles and the scoobies always treat Spike so terrible because he has no soul however they all have a soul and their actions in my opinion are just as bad as his are because they have souls but still they do horrendous things but they are always saying how disgusting Spike is.

[Wiccaness]

Id have to disagree with you (i guess you saw it coming, dont worry my bashing isnt that bad =)...)i like S6.




I will start with the scoobies: Xander never liked Angel or Spike but he never hit Angel or talked trash to Angel and was never rude towards Angel so why is he to Spike? is it because he knows Spike can not do anything to him?
ok Angel killed Jenny Calendar in season 2 and Giles forgave him(?) and then even helped him when he came back in season 3 in fact they all forgave him and got over it and treated him just like they did in season one. It was like all was forgiven I just do not see where the evil things Spike has done is any worse than what Angel has done so why do the scoobies treat Angel so great and Spike so Disdainful?




i think it was like this with them because when Angel did all those things he wasnt Angel he was Angelus. Him losing his fault wasnt his fault and they knew that Angel really didnt have anything to do with it,
but it did take some time for them to trust him again,
for example, when he went for help to giles, giles didnt invite him in till he had a crossbow in his hands.



Now on to Season 6:
Towards the end of season five it appeared the scoobies had accepted Spike or at least accepted him as much as they ever would it also appeared that Buffy and Spike had come to an understanding where he realized Buffy did not love him and would never love him but she treated him with respect and he was okay with that they all helped each other out and appeared to have some kind of truce when season 6 started they were all working together Spike included Spike also watched Dawn etc. but as soon as Buffy is brought back they turn on Spike and treat him like trash all of them. and I do not understand why they always treat him like this.

Thats not all true, the only people that give him hard time is the ones that gave it to him since the beggining, and its mostly Xander and Giles, not every one,


I know at this point Spike still does not have a soul but he has done so many good things and has helped them alot and continues to do so even after Buffy has died It seems to me after everything the scoobies forgave/got over Angel doing they could have acted differently towards Spike.


once again, they for gave angel because he was angelus when he did all those things, Spike did do good things, but if he didnt have that chip in his head he wouldnt be helping,




Anyways back to season 6 the first few episodes are okay in my opinion not great but okay but OMWF is where my opinion of season 6 and Buffy starts to turn. In OMWF Spike basically tells Buffy to stop visiting him he doesn’t want to play her games anymore and if she cant love him leave him alone but at the end of this episode she kisses him so at this point she starts to lead him on (I think this is the episode that gives him hope that Buffy has feelings for him and she may start to love him)

Yes is does seem that she may be leading him on, but if spike said to stop visiting him then he should stay away as well, yes he did go see her to help her,but thats kinda making him a hypocrite,
i think that the kiss was just one of those momments, she was singing how she wanted the fire back and all that and with spike she would feel it, it might be just one of those momments, or she might have really have feelings for him and it came out at the moment who knows.


in the episode Tabula Rasa Spike wants to talk about their kiss and Buffy blows him off again at the end of the episode Buffy seeks Spike out after he turned to leave the bronze after she basically ignores him when he is standing there looking at her and again she initiates another kissing session at the bronze again leading him on further


i think buffy blows him off because she was either afraid or like she's said disgusted with her self.



also in this episode we find out Spike could kill Buffy as his chip no longer works on her I do not see what keeps him from killing her other than he loves her

Yes he does find out this and first thing he does is go all vamped out and try to kill a girl.

and yeah if it wasnt because he loved her he probably would have killed her, or if he wasnt to busy having sex with her...he started hitting her before that so he might have had planed to kill her.



Dead Things is the episode I have the biggest problem with and the episode makes me totally hate Buffy with a passion the alley scene is revolting the way Buffy beats Spike when he tries to stop her from turning herself in for a murder she did not commit she is telling him he is a dirty evil disgusting thing with no soul but in my opinion Buffy’s action are disgusting she has a soul and she beats someone who loves her so brutally Spike is not fighting back he just takes the beating

Buffy was doing what she thought was right, she thought she had killed a girl so she was going to turn her self in,

And if spike got beat up it also was kinda his fault, he laid there and took it he even told her

SPIKE: Come on, that's it, put it on me. Put it all on me.



The scene in as you were when Buffy wants Spike to tell her he loves her and wants her is heart breaking because I believe he truly loves her and she wants to hear this to make herself feel better because as usual its always about Buffy and what Buffy wants.

actually i think this parts just because Riley came back all married, not because shes self centered


The episode Entropy is okay I do not like how everyone is mad at Spike for sleeping with Anya I mean Anya made her own decision to sleep with him it wasn’t like Spike made Anya sleep with him I find Buffy’s reaction to the situation horrifying she has been telling him to move on she can not and does not love him then when it appears he is

Spike wasnt the only one that they were upset with, xander was pretty upset with anya herself,



she gets all p*ssed about it

correction she doesnt gets pist about it, she gets hurt, he only reason she goes to the magic shop is to stop Xander from.... here it comes, wait for it...from killing spike for sleeping with anya



and I can not stand Dawns conversation with Spike how dare she make Spike feel bad for sleeping with Anya

i dont think what dawn said to him was so bad , i dont think her intention was to make him feel bad i think she just wanted to know why he did that,




And finally Seeing Red the attempted rape scene I too agree rape is a terrible thing and no one deserves to be raped however I agree with the others who have stated that Spike did not go to her house to rape her I believe he wanted to apologize for sleeping with Anya I believe he lost control Buffy’s mind games, mixed signals, and treatment of him, did a number on him and he finally broke. I by no means think his actions were right but I do understand he had a breaking point and he finally reached it.

i disagree here big time, there was nothing going on to give him a breaking point, right before he tried to rape her they were talking about why buffy couldnt let xander kill spike, his the one that starts to get closer to her and tries to get her to feel it


It seems to me Buffy, Giles and the scoobies always treat Spike so terrible because he has no soul however they all have a soul and their actions in my opinion are just as bad as his are because they have souls but still they do horrendous things but they are always saying how disgusting Spike is.

ok from this i get the impression, correct me if im wrong, but your a big spike fan, most of the things here you dont like have something to do with spike, not the season, because there is so much more going on in S6, theres the whole Willow and Tara thing, the trio, Bad Willow, Anya, etc.

[Senior Watcher]

im not sure why season 6 gets a bad rap from people. i think its mainly because there was no big bad throughout the season. and no, i dont think the trio were in any way the 'big bad'.

it wasnt until the end of the season that the true villian came out, dark willow.

having said that, i have to state that i like season 6 very much. lots of issues were dealt with, lots of characters had major layers of depth added, and who can forget the best episode ever, "once more with feeling?!" i mean, come on! that was the best musical ever!

[TabulaRasa]

I think season 6 is brilliant. I have to admit I could have done without some of the sex scenes...they could have been done more lightly, but that is my opinion. Plenty of people love them. Doesn't at all make it bad in my eyes. Wiccaness pretty much covered everything I was going to say so that makes my job easier.

[definition of insane]

The whole Spuffy thing is, yes, sometimes hard to watch but if you look at the concept of season 6 as a whole it's not so bad.

Life sucks....basically wasn't that the crux of the season?

Buffy is all messed up from being brought back when it's obvious that she didn't want to. She tried to make herself feel better, using Spike, which only made her feel worse. Spike tries to redeem himself because he sees it as his only option, only to find that he can harm the one he loves and then instead uses that ability to hurt to his advantage. Xander kicks them when they're down (he's always done this), especially when he's feeling down. Anya ends up a woman scorned with but finally gets there's not a quick fix. Willow gets addicted. Dawn goes troubled teen....am I missing anything?

If singular elements happened further away from each other, would it make anything seem better than it was? It's life and it's not all hugs and puppies and everyone get's screwed over at some stage. It's a season of Buffy so it's dramatised and it's all encompassing and there's actual demons involved but there's so much character development in this season that it's just I couldn't hate it if I tried.

And basically Wiccaness has probably said everything else I could say. :)

[Bored of the Dead]

OK this opening post shows a complete missing of the point of Season 6.

I can not stand .........I find the Buffy/Spike relationship incomprehensible and disgusting..........on 5 finale.

Could not disagree with you more

Note: I find the Buffy/Spike relationship incomprehensible and disgusting.

So does Buffy and if you rewatch Once More with Feeling the opening song pretty much tells you this is all about how she feels nothing because of where she has been and her relationship with Spike is part of that wanting to feel anything. It's better, in her mind, to feel disgust, hatred and self loathing than feel nothing at all.

I will start with the scoobies:...........Spike so Disdainful?


Giles never forgave Angel, he tolerated him because he understood that Angel was a useful ally, but even that came after his initial want to dispose of him. Also, do not forget Angel, for all his faults, had a soul, a conscience.
Xander barely even tolerated Angel. I don't know what show you watched but Xander often bad mouthed him, was the first to suggest Angel be killed and definitely wasn't scared of him.
Spike on the other hand was a Soulless demon. He had helped fight with the Scoobs, but at the end of the day, he was still a Vampire without a soul. The only one to treat Angel positively not including Buffy was Willow and Willow did the same with Spike.

Towards the end of season five...........towards Spike.


They had not accepted Spike, they understood, begrudgingly, that Spike could be an asset but the likes of Xander never lost focus of what he was.
Buffy did begin to realise that he was peculiar but before the OMWF stuff she really did confide in him as he was someone she could talk to.
This is where the line blurred for her.
She knew of his feelings for her and she wanted to feel something. She hated herself for it(not because it was Spike exactly but because it was a soulless demon) but at least she felt something. Spike isn't exactly clean in all this either. He was, after all, able to leave whenever he wanted. Buffy made it pretty darned clear what she was using him for and he still went back. It wasn't until he finally realised what was happening that things took a more dramatic turn.
You need to get over your 'Forgave Angel' stance because thats not what happened.

Anyways back to............invisible Buffy and Xander comes in that scene is hilarious.
She isn't quite leading him on, she is leading herself on. She is making herself believe that she is normal after being pulled out of Heaven, that she isn't just a hollow emotionless shell.
Spike epitomized everything she had fought against before her death and now he was the one that she could confide in. She loathed herself for what she was doing but couldn't stop because she needed it.
When Spike thought his Chip stopped working what is the first thing he tried to do?
Oh yeah, kill someone. Which confirms everything Xander believes - take away the chip and you still have the soulless beast.

Dead Things is the episode...........horrendous things they see fit and it is always okay.

Again point missed. Firstly, she believes she is guilty. Secondly she is looking at Spike and seeing the demon that only cares for himself(we know thats not true but this is what she sees) and sees what she has succumbed to. She is physically beating Spike, but what she is actually doing is attacking the part of her that is doing these things. It is very psychological - i'm just sorry you failed to understand this because it is one of the aspects that makes this season brilliant.
Why should they forgive him?
Spike killed all those people.
They don't forgive Angel and it wasn't even really him at the helm, it was Angelus.
What they do is they move on from that but never forget.

The scene in as you were when Buffy wants Spike to tell her he loves her and wants her is heart breaking because I believe he truly loves her and she wants to hear this to make herself feel better because as usual its always about Buffy and what Buffy wants.
See ALL the comments i've made regarding Buffy wanting to feel something.
Buffy is generally pretty selfless(I think there was that time she died, twice actually, for everyone - and lest we forget the fact Buffy 'wants' a normal life and could have one if she just 'quit' but never actually does) in most cases.



The episode Entropy is okay......he has no soul however they all have a soul and their actions in my opinion are just as bad as his are because they have souls but still they do horrendous things but they are always saying how disgusting Spike is.
Does Buffy have a right to be upset? Not really, is she human and upset? Absolutely.
Not only has she just witnessed the guy 'who loves her' have sex with one of her friends, but she does have some feeling for the guy. It may not be love, but there is something there and she is hurt.
The relationship is very destructive for both parties but your complete rant and blaming of Buffy without taking into account the emotional trauma she was dealing with due to dying and going to Heaven to only be ripped from there shows you need to try and rewatch the entire series, lose this bias you have (which in my opinion is less about Buffy and more about you fancying Spike and upset that he allowed himself to get in this situation - just remember it is a TV show) and watch it fresh.
This will never happen as your 'hatred' is so obvious.

Thanks

[Wanabee-slayer]

Got to agree with BOtD here!!!!!

[ByandBy]

ok from this i get the impression, correct me if im wrong, but your a big spike fan, most of the things here you dont like have something to do with spike, not the season, because there is so much more going on in S6, theres the whole Willow and Tara thing, the trio, Bad Willow, Anya, etc.


Actually up until S6 I was not really a big Spike fan I found the episodes with him to be basically funny and interesting but I did not watch the show because of his character I felt sorry for him in parts of S5 and basically through out S6 I guess my issues are really about how hypocritical Buffy and the Scoobies are when it comes to their own actions and their treatment of others. Buffy/Spike Willow/Warren and then Willow basically kicking Giles butt and then intending to end the world

[ByandBy]

[QUOTE=Bored of the Dead;454834]OK this opening post shows a complete missing of the point of Season 6.



Could not disagree with you more

Note: I find the Buffy/Spike relationship incomprehensible and disgusting.

So does Buffy and if you rewatch Once More with Feeling the opening song pretty much tells you this is all about how she feels nothing because of where she has been and her relationship with Spike is part of that wanting to feel anything. It's better, in her mind, to feel disgust, hatred and self loathing than feel nothing at all.

Althought I never thought of it like this this is a good point and I will think about it in this light I still think Buffy's treatment of Spike is disgusting (I feel sorry for him)



Giles never forgave Angel, he tolerated him because he understood that Angel was a useful ally, but even that came after his initial want to dispose of him. Also, do not forget Angel, for all his faults, had a soul, a conscience.
Xander barely even tolerated Angel. I don't know what show you watched but Xander often bad mouthed him, was the first to suggest Angel be killed and definitely wasn't scared of him.

I may need to rewatch the first few seasons but I only recall Xander bad mouthing Angel a couple of times and I thought that was because Xander was jealous and wanted to date Buffy I know Xander hated them both but his hatred towards Spike seems more I do not know Obvious

Spike on the other hand was a Soulless demon. He had helped fight with the Scoobs, but at the end of the day, he was still a Vampire without a soul. The only one to treat Angel positively not including Buffy was Willow and Willow did the same with Spike.

I guess I see Spike having the chip the same as Angel with a soul they both do good let me state I liked Angel I even liked him when he was Angelus


They had not accepted Spike, they understood, begrudgingly, that Spike could be an asset but the likes of Xander never lost focus of what he was.
Buffy did begin to realise that he was peculiar but before the OMWF stuff she really did confide in him as he was someone she could talk to.
This is where the line blurred for her.
She knew of his feelings for her and she wanted to feel something. She hated herself for it(not because it was Spike exactly but because it was a soulless demon) but at least she felt something. Spike isn't exactly clean in all this either. He was, after all, able to leave whenever he wanted. Buffy made it pretty darned clear what she was using him for and he still went back.

This is all true and I agree to a point I still feel had she not kissed him at the end of omwf the relationship would not have progressed as it did. But this is only my opinion

It wasn't until he finally realised what was happening that things took a more dramatic turn.

I'm not sure I follow you here can you elaborate on this?


When Spike thought his Chip stopped working what is the first thing he tried to do?
Oh yeah, kill someone. Which confirms everything Xander believes - take away the chip and you still have the soulless beast.

I see this differently he had just been bashed by Buffy stating he was an evil disgusting souless thing and if I recall he had to talk himself into it I could be wrong


Again point missed. Firstly, she believes she is guilty. Secondly she is looking at Spike and seeing the demon that only cares for himself(we know thats not true but this is what she sees) and sees what she has succumbed to. She is physically beating Spike, but what she is actually doing is attacking the part of her that is doing these things. It is very psychological - i'm just sorry you failed to understand this because it is one of the aspects that makes this season brilliant.

I'll try to watch this scene again to see if I come out with another view on it

Why should they forgive him?
Spike killed all those people.
They don't forgive Angel and it wasn't even really him at the helm, it was Angelus.
What they do is they move on from that but never forget.

I guess I look at the way Angel acted w/o a soul compared to Spike w/o a soul and Angel seems worse at least to me. I get the opinion that they "Moved" on quickly because in the S3 episode when they all realize Angel is back Xander sees Buffy kissing him Xander is angry and is the only one who brings up Ms Calenders murder it seems to me at this point they pretty much move on.



Does Buffy have a right to be upset? Not really, is she human and upset? Absolutely.
Not only has she just witnessed the guy 'who loves her' have sex with one of her friends, but she does have some feeling for the guy. It may not be love, but there is something there and she is hurt.

I guess i just do not see that


The relationship is very destructive for both parties


I agree

shows you need to try and rewatch the entire series, lose this bias you have (which in my opinion is less about Buffy and more about you fancying Spike)

Actually up until S6 I was not really a big Spike fan I found the episodes with him to be basically funny and interesting but I did not watch the show because of his character I felt sorry for him in parts of S5 and basically through out S6


This will never happen as your 'hatred' is so obvious.

I will try to rewatch season 6 with the view points I received here I may change my view I do not know I still have issues with how hypocritical Buffy and the Scoobies are when it comes to their own actions and their treatment of others. Buffy/Spike, Willow/Warren I do understand Willow was extremely upset/angry over the death of Tara but she still skinned Warren who was human and she does have a soul. Not to mention her trying to end the world

[TabulaRasa]

If someone killed my girlfriend I would want to skin them alive, and more. I am totally agreeing with what Willow did. Bad I know but hey, I was all GO WILLOW! For Willow her life was Tara. If you lost your life (spouse, child etc) you would want to kill the person who did it also, and in the worst possible way. And we all have souls. It's what makes us human. The right to 'feel,' bad or good. killing Warren made Willow feel good, even tho it was only at her darkest hour. That was her comfort.

[ByandBy]

If someone killed my girlfriend I would want to skin them alive, and more. I am totally agreeing with what Willow did. Bad I know but hey, I was all GO WILLOW! For Willow her life was Tara. If you lost your life (spouse, child etc) you would want to kill the person who did it also, and in the worst possible way. And we all have souls. It's what makes us human. The right to 'feel,' bad or good. killing Warren made Willow feel good, even tho it was only at her darkest hour. That was her comfort.

I agree and I do feel for what Willow went thru in S6 but it seems thru out btvs soulless things were considered bad and rightfully so, It was a huge deal Angel had a soul it made him good (from what I can tell) Spike had no soul so even with the chip he is still considered evil it seems he can never be good because he has no soul at least according to Buffy, Giles, Xander, etc. Buffy and Willow are the good guys but it seems like they can do horrible things in S6 and it is alright they are always forgiven regardless of what they do because they have souls. I guess this is where S6 makes the lines gray between good/bad

[Wiccaness]

Actually up until S6 I was not really a big Spike fan I found the episodes with him to be basically funny and interesting but I did not watch the show because of his character I felt sorry for him in parts of S5 and basically through out S6 I guess my issues are really about how hypocritical Buffy and the Scoobies are when it comes to their own actions and their treatment of others. Buffy/Spike Willow/Warren and then Willow basically kicking Giles butt and then intending to end the world


True, but you have to remember that the whole buffy/spike buffy/spike along with bad willow isnt so much hyprocritical as it is other.

buffy/spike...i can see why you would see this as hypocritical but i dont believe it is. it is more of trying not to feel like an emty shell and him basicly allowing her to use him, basicly most of what Bored of the Dead stated about it.

Willow/Warren is about willow grieving and in her eyes trying to have justices.
Warren kills tara,warren takes tara away from willow, there for warren should pay , thats how she sees it at first,

with Dark Willow,all the magic changed her by the time she gets warren,and for ending the world. she feels the worlds pain when she tries to end the world, which is why she wants to do that


Im not saying that what they did is right but i dont see it as them being hyprocrits.

it seems thru out btvs soulless things were considered bad and rightfully so, It was a huge deal Angel had a soul it made him good (from what I can tell) Spike had no soul so even with the chip he is still considered evil it seems he can never be good because he has no soul
It is like that, he is still considered evil with the chip because with out it, he wouldnt be doing all the good he does, its a fact that with out the ship his just a vampire wanting to kill and feed,
I dont agree that the chip for spike is the soul for angel, because spike tries to take it off, or fist chance he gets he tries to hurt a human.



at least according to Buffy, Giles, Xander, etc. Buffy and Willow are the good guys but it seems like they can do horrible things in S6 and it is alright they are always forgiven regardless of what they do because they have souls. I guess this is where S6 makes the lines gray between good/bad

Yes the scoobies do some things that are bad,but like Willow and Buffy, the feel guilty about them, its not things that they actually want to do, Willow did the whole going to england and being afraid to do magic because she is affraid to turn into what she was with dark magic




and i rally have to agree with BOTD on the fact that it all seems kinda bias.

[TabulaRasa]

Buffy and Willow are the good guys but it seems like they can do horrible things in S6 and it is alright they are always forgiven regardless of what they do because they have souls. I guess this is where S6 makes the lines gray between good/bad


Buffy would have killed Willow if she had to. She went to do the same to Anya...my bad if you haven't seen that yet. So she will kill the good guys if it is necessary. But she of course hopes they will come around. If Adam was doing good things for the community but soulless she would have let him live. If Xander started killing humans she would do what she had to, ie...kill him.

[definition of insane]

Is it really a line between good and bad? In my opinion they've swam the gray area. Whether its for the great good or for their own purposes, pretty much every single one of them would do something that would probably be considered bad..or at least not good. But that's being human and making stupid choices at times and making even more idiotic justifications for them.

I don't really understand why there's is such an issue with "good" characters doing "evil" things and how it's hypocritical of them. It's not, it's human of them. It's realistic of them...or at least as realistic as a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer can be.

[SARArb]

sorry but i loved season 6! lool but it's normal that all of us dont have the same opinions... :)

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

Season 6 rocks because of the trio (or troika, whichever you refer to them as). They were the funniest characters EVER.

[Blondie Bear]

Buffy would have killed Willow if she had to. She went to do the same to Anya...my bad if you haven't seen that yet. So she will kill the good guys if it is necessary. But she of course hopes they will come around. If Adam was doing good things for the community but soulless she would have let him live. If Xander started killing humans she would do what she had to, ie...kill him.

I don't think she would have killed Xander; she's always going on about how Slayers don't kill people. She would definitely have turned him in, though. As for Willow, that's an interesting question . . . does being a witch take her out of the "human" camp as far as not killing her?

[Wiccaness]

I don't think she would have killed Xander; she's always going on about how Slayers don't kill people. She would definitely have turned him in, though. As for Willow, that's an interesting question . . . does being a witch take her out of the "human" camp as far as not killing her?

I think that being a with might but is more the whole being evil thin, if xander went into some dark mojo to something happened where he would be evil and killing, she would probably kill them

[Bored of the Dead]

I think that being a with might but is more the whole being evil thin, if xander went into some dark mojo to something happened where he would be evil and killing, she would probably kill them

If you are suggesting that he found a way to be demony or go 'Darth Harris' then Buffy would always do what it took to 'save the world' so it's probable - but it would have to be something seriously bad that she can't sort it another way.

[Wiccaness]

If you are suggesting that he found a way to be demony or go 'Darth Harris' then Buffy would always do what it took to 'save the world' so it's probable - but it would have to be something seriously bad that she can't sort it another way.

yeah something like that, im guessing he accidentally messed with some stuff again an instead of summoning some dancing demon, it made him this evil bad ass that couldnt be stopped, not even how evil willow was stopped or something like that

[Dlou444]

Season 6 is MY favorite...maybe because there was no "Big Bad" but I understand where you're coming from. Maybe that's because I like Spike and, although, it's not that I DON'T like Buffy, I like Spike more. And I think he did have to go through a heck of a lot in both season 5 and 6 that wasn't much fun.

I've always kind of a had a problem with the Spike vs Angel/Angelus thing too. It made sense when it happened. Can't blame Angel for things Angelus does. But, when looking at the whole series (and even the last season of Angel) I don't understand the flak Spike gets.
I mean, when Angel loses his soul...he's just evil. Although, somehow, Spike finds a way to NOT be evil, even without a soul. Chip or no chip, I find it hard to believe that he COULDN'T have found a way to do evil things even with a chip. How about Warren? He had a soul AND wasn't a vampire and yet could still be evil.
I think he deserved more appreciation than he got. Especially when they hold him up against Angel.

Although, I will give the "Scoobies" some leway in being mean to him or at least sarcastic and rude...because one of the reasons I like Spike is because he makes me giggle with how sarcastic and rude HE is. Which Angel, wasn't so much. Which is probably why Xander (and others) didn't say snotty things to his face.
And, I have to figure, that if they were all sweet to him, then Spike wouldn't have the opprotunity to be a sarcastic smart-butt and then a lot of my fun would be gone.

I CAN understand PART of Buffy's malfunction when it comes to Spike. I can understand the "using him" part. There have been times that I've felt that lost (maybe not yanked out of heaven lost, but lost) and I could see me turning to a guy that I knew adored me and not really being as into it. I don't tolerate her CRUELNESS well though. That part bugs me as well. It always feels like she could have gotten her point across many times without actually being cruel.

Then again, I think she gets hers for it in Season 7 when they boot her out.

All in all, it's still my favorite season. I really like the part where there ISN'T a big evil (unless you count Willow) and I love the HUGE array of character feelings. I have to appreciate it...even if I don't fully understand why Buffy felt the need to be cruel. I suppose, I will be able to critique it better when I'm yanked out of heaven and forced to care for my little sister with no mother, no money and all my plans for the future dashed, when everyone else seems to have a place but me and a sarcastic vampire. :lmao:

[Dlou444]

I rewatched Dead Things just to try and and force myself to understand Buffy's violent breakdown. And, I have to say, I might have actually gained some insight.
Although, I'm not sure I understand the violent pummeling that Buffy/Spike and even Buffy/Angel get into...but I just may not be a violent pummeler.

I DO believe now that Spike wanted her to beat the crap out of him. Hence why he pulled out the vampire face for apparently no reason. So, she could hate him more and beat the living crap out of him.

But, in listening to her horrible tirade that she threw onto him....some insight emerged.

She'd just killed someone (or thought she did) and she can see Spike basically saying, "This one person is no big deal". She can remember all the crap that went on with Faith and knows she'd be a hypocrite to NOT turn herself in. She knows she can't tell the police what ACTUALLY happened, (and we can assume she can't afford a lawyer from Wolfram & Hart) so she'll just be locked up for who knows how long.
I'd say it would not be a stretched to guess that she doesn't really WANT to turn herself in and go to prison for 30 years. And, there is Spike telling her not to.
I think all the insanity just culminated. The feeling that she was "distant" from her friends but CLOSE to Spike. Like she DID come back wrong. She could rationalize Angel because HE had a soul. She could rationalize other things (like Xander and the hyenas, because he was possessed by hyenas). But, Spike, she has to assume is still EVIL. Heck, he says he's "evil" all the time.
So, in my mind, it wasn't like she was fighting WITH Spike, but fighting with her feelings that she couldn't rationalize. Spike "must" still be evil and therefore, if she's in cahoots with him and he's the one she's been trusting and his "don't turn yourself in" and "this girl doesn't matter" theory makes sense even a little bit in her head, then she'd have to assume SHE'S evil too.

It made a LOT more sense when I realized that he had done the vampire face thing for no apparent reason, when staying normal would have stopped some of the beating (and when he turned back, it did stop) and when I realized how this attack was supposed to go with the breakdown with Tara later....it started to make more sense.

It kind of reminded me of a friend I have that got addicted to Hydrocodone. Technically, it wasn't even all his fault, his stupid doctor was a little free with the prescriptions and not with the watching and it got out of hand. It was as close to "evil" that I've been. But, even when he was trying to get better, and probably is still better, I find myself weighing everything he says and does. I can easily see where if I were losing touch with my sober friends and were only friends with him (mainly during the actual drug time) I would start to wonder what the heck was wrong with me too.

Thanks for making me rewatch though. The pummeling is still hard to watch, but it did help to realize she wasn't really beating SPIKE up, but herself. It just doesn't help Spike's face too much. ::evil::

[GATEGOD]

well i just started, and Willow I'm not liking at all for atleast 100 reasons, I do like the trio and Anya/Xander so far, but this will probably change ^.^ So I hope i don't hate season 6, it's not that bad so far... except for Willow using to much magic and making tara forget things :/ : erm :

[MLLamble]

Um... I don't think that Season 6 was all that bad. I mean, it's definitely not my favorite, but I still think it's okay. The Trio weren't too good as villains. Very funny, but not sinister or badass enough to top Faith, the Mayor, Adam or Glory. The things that really saved the season were:
A) The musical, Once More With Feeling
B) Dark Willow
I agree that Buffy can be pretty self-centered, and I did yell at my TV during this season, but I think you disproportionately hated this season.

[Dlou444]

I never really liked either Adam or Glory very much. I DID love the mayor and I like The First and all the fun he brought. I think it was because I never quite understood Adam and Glory's motives or what they were trying to do.
Glory does make me laugh, but her story just never quite clicked in my head as something that made sense.
Maybe it was the addition of the Initiative for Adam and those other guys out to get Glory. They kind of muddied the waters. (And my brain likes nice clear waters.) I like good and bad. Not good, bad and other people who seem to be working both against the good and the bad and never seem to want to try to compromise or come to an understanding.
Willow I get. And the Trio, I get. Nice and simple.

[Mirage]

I've recently been re-watching Season 6 since I got it just a couple of weeks ago. I decided to give it another chance because I remember hating it with a passion before. But after re-watching the first 20 episodes (with 2 more to go) its not bad at all. I figured out what annoyed me in it the first time around watching it though. Buffy and her immaturity with Spike in it. Season 6 was the most immature I've ever seen Buffy act and I didn't care for it at all. Especially since Buffy has always been my favorite character but in Season 6 she was my least liked character. Not to mention all the sex with Spike brought her down even further, especially when it got completely classless. Like the Balcony scene in Dead Things or in the beginning of As You Were when she brought her sister something to eat only she had to have sex with Spike outside their house first and then gave her sister the squished burger. Her sister should have came first, not sex with Spike. Once Riley showed up in As You Were, that was the first time I've seen Buffy act more like herself since S6 started. She looked even happy up until the point where she found out he was married. I wish he wasn't though, she could have had a healthy relationship again and I never felt things with Buffy/Riley were really resolved. But anyway, after As You Were, she finally started acting more like herself again.

What really made S6 good though was Willow. Her struggle to give up the addiction to magic, her relationship with Tara, her going all dark Willow after Tara dies. She's what kept S6 interesting. The Trio, while horrible villains, provided good comic relief (Well, Jonathan and Andrew did at least). And Xander/Anya provided adorableness up until Hells Bells. One bad thing about this Season besides Buffy would be very little Giles. I hated him leaving in S6. And of course even worse was Tara dying because she is such an awesome character.

[palabravampiress]

I loved Season 6. I didn't mind the lack of the big bad. They were all facing their inner demons. That was what was important.

I've got to agree that there was a lot more to season 6 than the Spike/Buffy affair. Even if you take those two out of the picture, we've got Willow letting her magic run wild. Everyone is so involved in their own drama that no one really notices until things get all crisis-like. But there are very strong indications of Willow's increasing isolation and addiction through the whole season. That's a really interesting journey to watch. Heck, I would have loved season 6 just for dark Willow. Her journey reminds us that even the best of us can lose control and do horrible things. But just a little love and support (thank you, Xander) can bring us back to ourselves for long enough to get help (thank you, Giles).

Giles struggling with his father role was also very touching. At some point, a parent has to let go and let the kids sink or swim on their own. There are just some lessons that you can't learn -- some strength that you can't achieve -- when you are dependent on mom and dad. That's a really hard thing for a parent to face. Giles saw that he had held on for too long. He felt he was doing all of them a disservice by being a permanent safety net. His choice to leave was hard on everyone. And I think it was wrong. Given the back-from-the-deadness and stuff, I really don't think they were ready to stand on their own as adults. I think what we saw of Giles' character was really touching. He loved them enough to leave because that's what he thought was best for them, not because he relished the idea of leaving the people who had become his family.

Xander screws up big time. Which is refreshing, since he's usually the one judging everyone on how bad they screw up. He starts to make a really good life for himself. But he's got these nagging insecurities about where he comes from. He comes from the drunk hick family with the uncle in prison and the stereotypical gender roles and the working class jobs. I feel him on that one. That's where he comes from. And he's afraid that's where he's taking Anya. That makes so much sense to me that it's scary. Like Lindsay, Xander has always felt like the outsider because, at the end of the day, he's still the guy who resembles Roseanne's husband more than Ray Romano or any of the Friends. He faces that. He faces it wrong, yeah, and hurts Anya terribly in the process, but he faces it. And in Season 7, he's able to move on.

Anya tries to go back to being a demon, but finds that she's got too much human in her. She feels guilty. She hates the job. She's not meeting her quota. And when frat boys die... she wants to die to bring them back. She can't go back. She's been hurt, but regressing isn't the answer. It won't make the hurt go away. In the end, Anya chooses her human side. That's a huge step for her.

I could go on and mention the trio and Tara and Dawn and probably a few other things, but this post is getting kind of long. My point here is that in this season, the characters all face their inner demons. Every one of them. They all grow up. They put the easy, black-and-white world of childhood behind them and face the uncertainty of adulthood. Season 6 is HARD on the scoobies. They lose their innocence. But they come out of it as adults ready to take on the First evil and its manipulations because, now, they have some idea of what evil is about. Season 6 has sooo much character development that it's great. I couldn't hate it if I tried -- and that's without mention of the Buffy/Spike debacle.

[MrGordo]

Ii disagree here big time, there was nothing going on to give him a breaking point, right before he tried to rape her they were talking about why buffy couldnt let xander kill spike, his the one that starts to get closer to her and tries to get her to feel it


I think people usually misinterpret the Spike rape scene, IMO it's very clear what it was all about, basically Spike LOVES Buffy, Buffy doesn't know what she feels for him, but its important to remember that their RELATIONSHIP is completely sexual, sex is what keeps it going (also Buffy is in a way using Spike throughout the whole of Season 6, to "feel") In the rape scene Spike tries to make Buffy feel what he feels for her, but because he hasnt been able to make her "feel" in any other form but sex, he "rapes" her, stupid of him, yes, but also realistic.

Hope what i wrote is like clear cause its hard to explain!

Oh and I LOVE season 6!

[XDruX]

I watched season 6 for the first time and finished it like 1 week ago.
I do not hate this season. I found very interesting, like palabravampiress said: "they were all facing their inner demons" and that was interesting.
As far as I'm concerned, I think it is way more interessant to see how a relation is going on, than to see Buffy fighting a demon. I mean, you can learn a lot, even on yourself sometimes. And that makes the season interesting. You can't watch it once and say: "I got everything". For me you have to watch it several times in order to get everything, in order to be able to take the side of such or such character.
Apart from that, let me say what I didn't like:
> Tara's death of course, I feel like her character could have brought a lot in the next season. We barely began to know her better and then...
> First I thought that I would miss Giles because he is one of my favourite characters but, in fact, I forgot he left. It's only when he came back that I realised he actually left. I don't think it's a bad thing that he went back to the UK. The characters needed to grow up by themselves.
> I also thought that the trio would be more present, like in each epi and I thought I'd be fed up with them. But no.

So, of course, I'm gonna rewatch this season, as soon as I have time!

[sosa lola]

I loved S6, but I wasn't a big fan of the trio. I actually loved seeing Buffy, Xander and Willow screw up, each in their own way. It was nice to be reminded that they were humans with flaws, makes them more interesting.

[WickedWillow]

I looooooooooved season 6. One of my favorites. There's always room for improvement but I don't think I could see much change about season 6.

[faith oracle]

Season 6 is very depressing.But there was intentionally no "big bad" due to the fact that Joss was attempting to build it up to a Anti-climactic final.wich was no where near Anti-climactic because you could see a mile away that she she was going to lose the plot eventually.And i found their relation ship to be rather dissgusting too,but its good in a way i guess.

[Wiccaness]

Season 6 is very depressing.But there was intentionally no "big bad" due to the fact that Joss was attempting to build it up to a Anti-climactic final.wich was no where near Anti-climactic because you could see a mile away that she she was going to lose the plot eventually.And i found their relation ship to be rather dissgusting too,but its good in a way i guess.

Do you mean She as in Willow, and they as in Willow and Tara?

[LadyLavinia]

I didn't hate Season 6. I consider it to be amongst the best of the series.

It's interesting how many BUFFY fans seemed to prefer the early years, when Buffy had remained a high school student. They seemed to have a low tolerance of Buffy having to develop as a character and mature into an adult. Some claim that they simply couldn't tolerate the bad writing. I disagree. I don't think the writing was worse than it was during the early years. I suspect that many simply wanted the show to remain the same without any real development.


There were two Big Bads for Season 6. Their names were Warren Mears and Willow Rosenberg. Just because they were humans, does not mean they were not capable of being monsters . . . or being a threat to the world.

[wiccianslayer]

I JUST WANNA POINT OUT ONE THING!!!

spike had to literly talk himself in to biting the girl and who knows if he actully would have drained her dry?

i am so sick of everyone judging him cause

No soul = bad

people with souls do hurrendious things everyday

warreewn for exaple

katrina was right it would have been rape and he killed her not to meantion tara and what he said to willow

[benboy606]

Nope, you're not the only one.

But, me, personally? I LOVED IT! Sorry, I loved the whole idea of the season and the standalones were stellar, as well as the arc. A few stinkers, but still great.

[GATEGOD]

I liked most of season 6, mostly Anya, and Evil Willow was cool and evil... Non evil Willow I'm no so lovey about though. She seemed more evil when she wasn't super evil Willow in my opinion. Which is the only thing I didn't like ^_^ Her and her obsession with Magic through out the season and the pushing away of Tara etc. etc.

[palabravampiress]

I wish we could have kept Tara. She was just so nice and good and wonderful (says the oh-so-articulate Palabra).

But, then again, I like that all of this delving into the dark side of the Scoobies came with a cost.

[benboy606]

I wish we could have kept Tara. She was just so nice and good and wonderful (says the oh-so-articulate Palabra).

But, then again, I like that all of this delving into the dark side of the Scoobies came with a cost.

Those reasons are exactly why we couldn't keep her! :lmao: Joss likes to delve into things, give great characters, and kill them. ESPECIALLY because they just got back together in that episode.

Personally, I was more sad because of her growth that season and how Amber Benson really gave her more of a role than she was supposed to have, imo. It could've been very system, but she really made that character better than it was. The speech in "Entropy" and just how she became her own character and not the shy outcast in the group.

[faith oracle]

noo i didnt mean,willow and tara's relationship was disgusting,theres was one i miss more than the others.i meant that buffy and spikes was.

[Wiccaness]

Ahhhhh got ya........

[Bangelxx]

i luved season 6 too! it was probably my favorite! hey- yeah but everyone thinks differently! lol

[kanani]

It's a favorite for me.

Season 6 is the season that got me thinking about re-watching the series again.

[jeansebergmustdie]

Granted,

I should read all of the above posts before stating any thesis but I read a handful and I think we're all repeating a lot of the same points. With that in mind, here's my take on the season, and with any luck there are a couple new or at the very least nicely worded thoughts to contribute.

I have mixed feelings about the whole 'Buffy/Spike' saga. On one hand, it seems a little out of character for Buffy to be so cruel considering they finally reached 'an understanding' at the end of season five. However, Buffy's going through tremendous amounts of crap and blaming herself for the bulk. And as mentioned above the Angel thing was tremendously different. Angel had a soul. The gang struggled with trusting Angel again, and while compared to how Spike was dealt with it was fairly brief. But it's television and the writers had to balance having a new Cordelia tension and getting the audience to feel empathetic towards Spike. I would love it if Buffy had been always well meant and never straying but that's just not true to life. Without internal conflict and mistakes there would be no growth for Buffy. Without character growth, there's not much of a show. And she does grow. All throughout season seven Buffy is trying to make amends with Spike; and forgive him. Let's not forget that prior to the attempted rape Spike's been anything but perfect. He manipulated Buffy and took advantage of the fact that she was so emotionally torn up. He victimized Buffy, and while she could have handled it better: She's human. She instead lashed out at him even further because of her own self-hatred. I'm sorry but if anyone on this board claims to be above taking out their insecurities/doubts and self-criticism on another human- "they're either lying or not very bright". We all do it, or have done so and in some cases to lesser degrees than others. The combination of Buffy's trauma and Spike using this as a device of power caused her to do so to a rather extreme degree.

Having said all that; Season 6 was desperately in need of that spark Spike went out to get. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Buffy being depressed and out of character given the context. It was fun, fitting, and a rather wonderful change of contrast- but come on..... There's no question that the season lacked the witty and fresh dialogue that the bulk of the series contained, and I feel that many of the plot elements could have been done with a lot more sparkle. I understand that the 'big bad' was life but please. What's Buffy without a bunch of diabolically funny villains to juicy up the plot? The flesh eating granny penis? Surely we've seen better. And as for the whole dark Willow... Yes, that was hinted to with Willow's magic abuse but honestly it could have used a few more episodes to properly develop, a few more glimpses of a Dark Willow brewing surely would have helped a great deal to heighten the suspense of the arch.... As clever as 'super bitch' was, there's no doubt in my mind that if Joss had been around a little more for the season there wouldn't be nearly as much pitter patter between viewers as to whether or not the show lost it's charm. If any.

[Tranquillity]

And as for the whole dark Willow... Yes, that was hinted to with Willow's magic abuse but honestly it could have used a few more episodes to properly develop, a few more glimpses of a Dark Willow brewing surely would have helped a great deal to heighten the suspense of the arch....

but it was hinted at...since season two. Whichcraft became Willow's rout to 'specialness'. it let her move from being the big geek she thought she was into a magic mama. She thought it made her more important than plain old ordinary non-magic Willow. It made her feel powerful. Its all about the power. From Earshot onwards every time Buffy is incapacitated Willow takes command - she becomes the boss (Earshot, Weight of the World, Bargaining). In Fear Itself she says she isn't the 'sidekick'. She wants to be a leader and powerful in her own right and When people critcise her use of magic she turns nasty. i read a really excellent characeter study of Willow once (can't remember where at the mo, sorry) that suggested that she never really expected Buffy's resurection to be successful (they used lots of quotes to support this notion so it was very convinving) that it was done so that she could legitimately claim the leadership of the group. And when it does work it has the duel consequnces of feuling both Willows belief in her own power and resentment towards Buffy for still being in the position of leader. So when dark Willow emerges after Tara's death it quickly moves beyond her grief into the power struggle with Buffy because it has been brewing for so long.

I love season six - it's not always pleasent, it's often uncomfortable but it's certainly compelling.

[jeansebergmustdie]

but it was hinted at...since season two.


I love season six - it's not always pleasent, it's often uncomfortable but it's certainly compelling.

I know it had been hinted to. If I'm not mistaken that's what I wrote. I just feel that the evil Willow storyline had been expanding and snowballing ever since Becoming (the curse: channeling such dark magics, etc... The Giles warning that echoed), and then *poof* three episodes are expected to properly ermm... 'develop' (for lack of a better word) the big bad Willow? I just didn't feel that anything was handled with the same finesse that most of the show's storylines and dialogue were. Just my opinion. And I'll agree with you, season six was a beautiful premise; it just could have been handled better.

[Tomp]

It had its moments. Definately Hells Bells.

[Bored of the Dead]

I know it had been hinted to. If I'm not mistaken that's what I wrote. I just feel that the evil Willow storyline had been expanding and snowballing ever since Becoming (the curse: channeling such dark magics, etc... The Giles warning that echoed), and then *poof* three episodes are expected to properly ermm... 'develop' (for lack of a better word) the big bad Willow? I just didn't feel that anything was handled with the same finesse that most of the show's storylines and dialogue were. Just my opinion. And I'll agree with you, season six was a beautiful premise; it just could have been handled better.

Erm what?

We have 4 years building, a season showing this (Willow was showing signs way before she turned, it's not foolish to say that Willow was 'Dark' from the beginning of the season in the sense that she was in the full throws of addiction and doing what was necessary to fill the addicts needs - THEN she lost Tara and the whole thing broke her even more) and then another season with Willow dealing with the Fallout.

This wasn't a neat little three episode character progression, this was one point of a really long character arc.

[Bangelxx]

I already posted here but I want to add on.
I didn't really like the spuffy thing....it was hard to watch especially when I started to get the feeling that Buffy didn't REALLY love spike (I know we could have many disagreements here but thats just what i thought) But yes, if you look at season 6 as one big thing, I REALLY liked it. My fave season all the way!! I loved evil willow-that was the best, and then there was my all-time fave ep OMWF!!! Anya/Xander was terribly sad but it was very well done:) Doublemeat palace was funny and Dawn wasn't as whiny as in season 5. I liked Willow/Tara in this season too! Only i almost cried when tara died.

I was glad that Xander was the one in the end who brought Willow back to the side of good. Xander was always seen as useless, the one without superpowers, but here he got to shine:):)

The "Trio" was cool but I got a bit fed up with them I must say...I couldn't STAND warren, not really sure why and Andrew is SUCH loser.... lol

So thats my opinion on season 6!!:D

[Jaded Wolf]

No you're not the only one. While I won't say "hate", a strong dislike of this season is how I feel. Don't get me wrong, I'll still watch it because it adds to the mythos but it's not one of my favorites. It was too serious this season and the whole Spike/Buffy dominatrix/rape angle sat a little uncomfortable with me. The few highlights of this season was the musical and when Willow ripped the skin off of Warren. There was just too much "down in the dumps" theme going on with this one. I know Joss' direction with it and why he did what he did but eh... The other good thing I can definetely say about this season is that it set up the foundation for a perfectly good season 7!

[Kimz]

I loved series 6!

i can see how its a lot darker than the others, but thats not always a bad thing.
i think it got a lot of negative unfair reviews in terms of how dark joss made it compared to the other seasons, but i for one think its always great to constantly change something, makes it all the more exciting. Plus a lot of the other seasons are pretty light and easy going, its good to have some dark undertone now and then.
This season had a lot of awesome light hearted episodes as well tho thrown in...obv the musical and the likes of tabula rasa :) so not all doom n gloom

i for one love this series...plus massive spuffy fan here haha...and james marsters pretty much naked, not a bad thing in my book ;)

x

[Dlou444]

Maybe my view is different because I'm with Spike, I don't think Buffy didn't love him. I think she DID, but she didn't want to for weird and obscure reasons that just make her Buffy.
Granted, I could be tainted by the fact that I adore Spike and Buffy was never one of my favorite characters.
Buffy always has this black and white way of looking at the world that doesn't work well in the real world and also doesn't work in her world. One where she's allowed to screw up and make mistakes, but the people around her shouldn't. She gets so miffed at Xander and Willow, even when they just didn't tell her that Angel asked them to look into the whole Ford thing in Season 2. She gets mad at Giles for not telling her about his past in "The Dark Age". She gets all upset at Jenny because of not telling her what she didn't even know about Angel and the curse. But, she can just up and LEAVE when her Mother doesn't deal well with the Slayer thing and act like a brat when she comes back and people are ticked. And lies when Angel comes back.
And this just GROWS for season upon season.

She was always so black and white about Angel too. Personally, I'd have been looking for the curse from Day ONE when he turned bad and certainly would have been looking for a patch for that loophole too. But, NOOOO.

I think Spike gave her what she wanted. He was good at giving space and not pushing when he knew he shouldn't. He was supportive and, even with her protests, he seemed to know what she wanted and needed.

You can't say that by Season 6...this wasn't a girl that needed SERIOUS THERAPY. World ending, aside, more therapy than Willow and/or Amy and maybe even Warren. There is a reason she let Spike in, and that was because he understood. That and he was the only one she felt like she could show she wasn't always "Miss I Do Everything Right" to. Not REALLY the only one, but in BUFFY'S mind, the only one.

I suppose I can see that, in a way. There are certainly things I would tell my friends that I wouldn't want to bop into the kid's school and tell their teachers. But, Buffy's issues were a BIT overblown. She seemed to WANT to see herself a certain way, Dawn a certain way, be totally blind to Willow's issues, and wanted to see Spike in one way...mostly being "EVIL" and looking past anything he'd ever done that was "good".
Personally, I think she DID love him...she just wouldn't admit it because she's a bit of a mental case and he didn't fit in her black and white world.

Maybe that's why I like the season so much. Because it's like it all hits the fan. While Buffy's not paying attention and not being honest about her insecurities about herself and refusing to see that not everyone is either all good or all evil, Xander's relationship goes down the toilet, Anya goes back to being a demon, Willow loses Tara, then goes absolutely nuts, and Buffy's not even on top of things to realize that maybe Warren should be at the TOP of her radar because he's actually insane.

I think the season is EXTREMELY representative of real life...minus she demons. It's some serious insight into what happens when you aren't honest with yourself and get so wrapped up in hiding your feelings that you're then blind to the world around you. Something Buffy, Willow, Xander and even Dawn are all guilty of in this season. It's a season about being honest and realizing your own faults. If they had, Buffy might have realized that Spike wasn't really "bad", that she wasn't supposed to be all perfect and strong all the time. Willow would have listened to Tara and eased off the magic. Xander would have been honest and talked to Anya about his feelings before the wedding. Dawn wouldn't have felt so ignored and started stealing. And Spike may have realized earlier that a soul might be a plan.

And, whether it ends up being a favorite of yours or not, I think it was necessary for the series to make it to season 7....and further.

[Werewolf]

I really liked season six, i thought it had strong plots/plot twists
I also thinks it's one of the more quotable seasons..

[SH3RRI3]

I understand where you're coming from and in some cases i do believe you and i personally believe that this season was the weaker one out of the seven even though i did enjoy some areas of teh season.

[Buffy Summers]

Just want to go on record that I hated it too lol

[LadyLavinia]

I have mixed feelings about the whole 'Buffy/Spike' saga. On one hand, it seems a little out of character for Buffy to be so cruel considering they finally reached 'an understanding' at the end of season five. However, Buffy's going through tremendous amounts of crap and blaming herself for the bulk. And as mentioned above the Angel thing was tremendously different. Angel had a soul.

What does Angel possessing a soul have to do with Buffy's relationship with Spike in S6? If possession of a soul truly mattered to Buffy about whom she sleeps with . . . that only tells me that she had far to go in regard to becoming mature.

By the way, I believe that Season 6 was one of the better ones of the series. To be honest, Buffy's struggles on the road to maturity during Seasons 4-7 struck me as being more interesting than her foray into adolesence in the first three seasons.

[Dlou444]

If possession of a soul truly mattered to Buffy about whom she sleeps with . . . that only tells me that she had far to go in regard to becoming mature.


I disagree just for fun. I think of myself as quiet mature but having a soul is one of those pesky things I try to make sure is there before I sleep with someone. In fact, Spike probably wouldn't have made the cut for me...as much as I would like to say he would. I have a checklist!
Dinner (_)
Beer (_)
Kinda Cute (_)
Funny (_)
Doesn't Live In Cemetary (_)
Condoms (_)
Soul (_)
Nearby Burger King For Breakfast (_)

[Rowan Hawthorn]

What does Angel possessing a soul have to do with Buffy's relationship with Spike in S6? If possession of a soul truly mattered to Buffy about whom she sleeps with . . . that only tells me that she had far to go in regard to becoming mature.

Wanting the person you're sleeping with to not be a soulless, evil monster shows a lack of maturity? Man, that is so f***ed up.

Hey, for all you women out there who get restraining orders against your doper/gangbanger/abusive boyfriends: you ladies need to just grow up, already, and stand by your men.


Sheesh....

[Elithustra]

I think there were a lot of things in Season Six that were less than desirable. For me, the Glory story line wasn't all that crash hot. Tara's death. Don't even get me started on how much I strongly hated that.

I actually liked the whole Spike/Buffy thing, I think it had been coming for a long, long time! But thereagain, that's just me!

Rowan, I sincerely hope you're joking.

[Lorne]

There were some okay episodes of Season 6, such as the amazing musical they put together, kudos to the cast and crew for the musical, however most of the season that time was dark, darker than usual for Joss's taste in the world of Buffy. Dawn was threatened by peer pressure and was going crazy, along with Spike who tried to rape Buffy in the end. It was a mixed emotions, especially when they had Willow turn evil with ultimate power which if she was capable of doing that before, that means the only reason she didn't do any of that was because she had Tara. So when Tara was gone, all morality died with Willow at that point. Only Xander could have brought her back to the path of good. People seem to miss that point a lot when discussing this particular season, that if in fact Xander hadn't been there for Willow, Willow may have found a way to end if not the world then at least Sunnydale and begin to put doom on the rest of the world with her frustrations at not having Tara anymore. Tara was her balance, and as we all know, she lost that balance when Warren shot Buffy and the bullet went through and hit Tara. The gods Willow called forth to bring Tara back failed, now my question is, if she had that the first time when Buffy died by going through the force fields that electrocuded her (however that's spelled) why didn't she call upon Cyrus then? (I think that's right) to bring Buffy back, if she was that into the Wicca connection? She would have been able to save Buffy... or was that just done on purpose to throw everyone off?

[Elithustra]

Because I think she wasn't as shocked by Buffy's death, if that makes sense. I mean, you're talking about two different types of love. The love for your best friend, vs. the love for you partner. Tara's death was so instant, so unexpected, it was just WHAM, Tara dies. Willow is devestated, to the point that she just snaps. Looses all control, turns dark. I mean, yes, the same could be said for her reaction to Buffy's death. But having said that, perhaps Dawn told them all what Buffy had said to her. Perhaps Willow too understood that at that time, Buffy needed to die to stop the portal opening. I'm not too sure on that one, but it's an interesting thought.

[Lorne]

Yea that's why I pointed that out, I know that Tara's death was instant and that's what made Willow snap, it's just, if she had the knowledge before hand, Buffy's 'second' death wouldn't have happened in this reality 'cause in the other reality according to Cordelia's wish in Season 3, Buffy does die there by the Master, but in this reality "of the show obviously lol" she dies in Season 5 and that was supposed to just be the end of it, but they brought the show back and I'm wondering if Tara's death should have happened at the beginning of season 6 instead of the end, if that makes sense, or no it doesn't skip that, but I mean Willow knew this, and she should have used it when Buffy made the decision to dive into the energy portal to save her, or bring her back sooner without going behind Giles's back and all that jazz.

[Elithustra]

I'm thinking that perhaps Willow didn't have this knowledge before, as she was still learning. Sorry to have mis-read your post before!

Rowen, also sorry to you, I mis-interpreted the context.

Apologies and cookies all round!

[Lorne]

Oh it's okay I may not have been specific about that, it just made me wonder, and that's a possibility too that she was still learning, because when she did bring Buffy back as I am remembering now, she was doing research before the group decided that it was a good idea to try bringing her back with a spell by Willow. It was in the first episode of season 6 I think when she even mentioned something about bringing her back from an unnatural death and I don't know if she mentioned Cyrus or not but that may have been the case. I do know she had to do the research before trying anything though.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I'm thinking that perhaps Willow didn't have this knowledge before, as she was still learning. Sorry to have mis-read your post before!

Rowen, also sorry to you, I mis-interpreted the context.

Apologies and cookies all round!

No worries, I probably shouldn't have been so sarcastic, anyway.

Also: Mmm'Cookies!

Edit:

Oh it's okay I may not have been specific about that, it just made me wonder, and that's a possibility too that she was still learning, because when she did bring Buffy back as I am remembering now, she was doing research before the group decided that it was a good idea to try bringing her back with a spell by Willow. It was in the first episode of season 6 I think when she even mentioned something about bringing her back from an unnatural death and I don't know if she mentioned Cyrus or not but that may have been the case. I do know she had to do the research before trying anything though.

I think you're right - it was a different situation between the end of Season 5 and the end of Season 6. Willow had gone much deeper into the dark magick by the time Tara was killed, it was just reflexive. And she did call on Osiris during the spell to resurrect Buffy, so it makes sense that her first instinct would be to call on him again to try and save Tara.

[Lorne]

Okay thanks for the correction on Osiris. I am thinking that the difference between her calling upon Osiris the first time and then the second time was the first time it was done properly with the vase that was needed for the ritual. It was done as 'Wicca' participants would have had to adhere to if they were attempting something like this. Between the middle of Season 6 and the end after Tara's death, Willow had covered the basics of magic dutifully, then proceeded to the other forces when Amy was brought back as a human... with that new knowledge and the frustrations she felt when Tara was shot in their room, she felt the need to care less to call upon Osiris the natural "Wicca" way and just go straight to the source.

[LadyLavinia]

I sometimes wonder if the reason why so many dislike the later seasons is because they focused upon Buffy being forced to mature in the usual messy way that people are forced to do. I also wonder if many fans would prefer if Buffy had remained in arrested development between ages 16-18, harboring her black-and-white morality and wallowing her "twu luv" relationship with Angel.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I sometimes wonder if the reason why so many dislike the later seasons is because they focused upon Buffy being forced to mature in the usual messy way that people are forced to do. I also wonder if many fans would prefer if Buffy had remained in arrested development between ages 16-18, harboring her black-and-white morality and wallowing her "twu luv" relationship with Angel.

I'm fairly certain both of those statements are accurate. But speaking as someone who liked the early seasons, and the late ones: I'm also fairly certain that, given a choice between "wallowing" in a "twu luv" relationship with someone who actually cares about you and wallowing in a destructive relationship with an obsessed demon, I have serious doubts as to whether those choosing the latter has any better grasp of the term "mature" than the others...

[palabravampiress]

Oh gosh. Wait til WA and Keanoite get here to debate the twu wuv vs. complex, messy Spike thing.

I agree that in season 6, Buffy was:
wallowing in a destructive relationship with an obsessed demon with whom she could have sex.

I don't think that's necessarily any less mature than wallowing in twu wuv with whom she couldn't have sex. I mean, Angel(us) was an obsessed demon, too.

There are a lot of similarities between Angel and Spike. They're from the same vampire family. They're both attractive, charming, dangerous men. Unchecked, (by either the soul or the chip) they're ferocious killers. Neither one is the poster boy for bachelor of the year. Neither one constitutes a healthy relationship for Buffy.

The difference, I think, was Buffy. She'd been through a whole lot by the time Spike came around. She'd been burned before. Her reaction was, understandably, to close herself off. But Spike kept coming around giving her puppy dog eyes, which was awfully convenient, since she saw him as impotent (with the chip and, later, his love) and unable to harm her. She used him. Plain and simple. Who hasn't done that?

That's a definite stage -- when you want a physical connection but not an emotional one and so, knowing how he feels, you use a guy who totally adores you. It's not pretty, but it happens more often than most of us would like to admit. And it helps you to mature. You learn stuff from that experience. By hurting others, you gain insight into the mindset of those who hurt you. It helps you to forgive and to deal. By treating people as they are not supposed to be treated and witnessing the subsequent fallout, you learn how people are supposed to be treated. I could go on and on, but the point is that there is a dark side in all of us. Learning what your limits are and how to control those negative tendencies is definitely part of maturing. Unfortunately, it's a not-very-pretty part.

The reason I prefer Spuffy to Bangel is because, like Spike says later in season 7, they saw the best and the worst in each other. That forges a connection, folks. They went through some crap together and they both came out stronger in the end. They know that, as messy as it gets, they can deal with that side of each other in the future. In the end of season 7, they love each other in part because they each know better than anyone else what the other had to overcome to get to that place. That's not hearts and flowers, kiddies, but it's about the only thing I'm willing to call love. It's tested. It's battered. It's about the only thing I'm willing to bet on as lasting and real and unbreakable.

So, no, I don't think the season 6 thing with Spike shows a lack of maturity. I think it shows a very age-appropriate amount of maturity that, while difficult, is a necessary stage of development for any person who hopes to go into future relationships with his/her eyes wide open rather than wearing the fairy-tale blinders of naivety. Facing the inner demon is hard, but it's a good, enlightening thing to go through. I liked the earlier seasons. I liked the later seasons, too. For me, season 6 was my favorite, though, because it took a gamble and actually let the main characters - like Buffy - explore the negative aspects of their characters as well as the positive sides. That took guts. In the end, I think it made them all more fully realized characters.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Oh gosh. Wait til WA and Keanoite get here to debate the twu wuv vs. complex, messy Spike thing.

I'm not gonna bother debating it. Both of those relationships were complex and messy and neither were healthy relationships. "Let's beat the crap out of each other and screw each other's brains out while despising ourselves for it" relationships generally last longer than "Hearts and flowers and puppy-dog twu love" relationships only because, in the Real World, one partner or the other is afraid to try and leave it. That's messed up.

[Lorne]

There's a lot of darkness in Season 6, but I think the purpose of that is for Joss to show us that Buffy can deal with the real world just as well as the rest of us as well as her duties as the Slayer. That was one of the big points for Season 6. She had to deal with her sister that was in the "pitty me" stage of the teenage years, and the dealing of Spike who was becoming obsessed with Buffy and wanted to use her, and vice versa. She had a lot to balance and find herself again towards the end of Season 6, and she did I think.

[alexa]

I don't think 'so many' people dislike the later seasons. I do see that more people just happen to like seasons 2-5 better, me being one of them. Although I love all the seasons bar season 6... it's alright, but just a little too dark for me all around.

I love season 7 and season 8 actually, so people saying 'oh it's because everyone likes Buffy immature' seems inaccurate, especially for me. Season six is the only season where I really wanted different things to happen, and I don't mean the whole Spuffy thing.. mostly just the everyone wanting to kill themselves. Not to take value away from exploring that side of the human condition, but I didn't like how it was handled. Anyway pretty sure I've said everything in my second paragraph before in this thread.

[Lorne]

I think the main reasons people seem to dislike Season 6 is because of the Spuffy relationship and the whole whining Dawn deal of committing or trying to commit suicide and the darkness of season 6 that isn't seen in the previous seasons. Now that I think about it, I kinda like season 6 a little because it shows the maturity that the scooby gang had to go through, things you have to deal with in real life... like Xander and Anya's wedding that didn't happen. The whole Dawn deal, Willow getting furious about Tara's death, etc. That's all just part of life, it was the way it was handled supernaturally in the show that makes it more interesting, and I think they may have over-done some parts of it, but other than that it was a good season I suppose.

[tillow]

Season 6 is still my favourite but i have to say xander ditching anya like that angered me, it was so out of character...i thought she was going to wake up and it be wedding day jitters.

Amy being quite evil annoyed me cause she seemed like the kinda ratson that would never do that, she tried to avoid her mothers way of life and it kinda made that whole amy and her mum episode being pointless.

killing tara devastated me :'(

They should of kept tara, and then we wouldn't of had to meet kennedy eww! xox

[Primal Slayer]

Season6 is probably my least favorite season and the season where I havent rewatched that many of the episodes. The season started out on a high note but it seemed after OMWF, it just went downhill with the Spuffyness and all the over darkness. Noone was happy, Giles left, and well Spuffy began.

[LadyLavinia]

I'm also fairly certain that, given a choice between "wallowing" in a "twu luv" relationship with someone who actually cares about you and wallowing in a destructive relationship with an obsessed demon, I have serious doubts as to whether those choosing the latter has any better grasp of the term "mature" than the others...


I hate to say this, but I found Buffy's relationship with Angel to be a lot more destructive . . . as Season 2 proved. I also believe that if she had remained with him, she would have also remained stuck in arrested development. Her "destructive" relationship with Spike forced her to grow up. And in her own way, Buffy was as obssessive with Spike as he was with her.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I hate to say this, but I found Buffy's relationship with Angel to be a lot more destructive . . . as Season 2 proved.

How did Season 2 "prove" that Buffy's relationship with Angel was worse than with Spike?

I also believe that if she had remained with him, she would have also remained stuck in arrested development. Her "destructive" relationship with Spike forced her to grow up.

Buffy was five years older than when she met Angel. She'd died twice, averted at least three apocalypseses (apocalypsi?) I think you're not only giving Spike a lot more credit than he deserves, you're seeing what you want to see to support your choice of 'ships.

And in her own way, Buffy was as obssessive with Spike as he was with her.

Well, that certainly makes it a much more healthy relationship... :rolleyes0

[LadyLavinia]

How did Season 2 "prove" that Buffy's relationship with Angel was worse than with Spike?


You're kidding me . . . right? I don't think I'm going to bother to answer that one.


Buffy was five years older than when she met Angel. She'd died twice, averted at least three apocalypseses (apocalypsi?) I think you're not only giving Spike a lot more credit than he deserves, you're seeing what you want to see to support your choice of 'ships.


I never said that Spike was responsible for Buffy's maturity. I can't help it if Buffy tended to view Angel through rose-colored glasses like some child.

Well, that certainly makes it a much more healthy relationship...

I agree. But it sure as hell forced Buffy to finally grow up. Not everything in life happens smoothly. Certainly not real relationships.

[Kana]

You're kidding me . . . right? I don't think I'm going to bother to answer that one.





I never said that Spike was responsible for Buffy's maturity. I can't help it if Buffy tended to view Angel through rose-colored glasses like some child.



I agree. But it sure as hell forced Buffy to finally grow up. Not everything in life happens smoothly. Certainly not real relationships.

Yeah, it's a difficult one. It's neglible which relationship is worse and it also depends on why it's worse. The fact that consequentially there were defects does not ncessarily reflect on the nature of the persons involved, well not Buffy. She was innocent in his turning and no one exepcted Angel to lose his soul not even him. Though their relationship wasn't perfect, (show me a perfect relationship ) certainly this was the main issue and it wasn't really psychological but more metaphysical (well a little of the former but I would look at the the relationship between Angel and Angelus more closely for this)

With Spike and Buffy it's much more of the latter. However I don't think Buffy needed to go through what she went through. A lot of people talk about Spike and Buffy as the 'adult' relationship but I personally feel it's one way an adult relationship can go. We don't need to be abused and to be an abuser to learn how to grow up. In fact I think that's a naive, narrow assumption in itself. We can make mistakes and we can grow from those mistakes but it's not always necessary for us to do that. It was a direction they went in and I loved that. But when people make the assumption that Buffy had to go through that in almost a rite of passage deal. Like I said, just as narrow thinking as assuming that Angel and Buffy's relationship was a bed of roses.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

You're kidding me . . . right? I don't think I'm going to bother to answer that one.

No, I'm not kidding, and I'm not surprised. There would have to actually be an answer first.

I never said that Spike was responsible for Buffy's maturity.

Really: Her "destructive" relationship with Spike forced her to grow up.

I can't help it if Buffy tended to view Angel through rose-colored glasses like some child.

She was a child at the time. What the hell would you expect? And, by the end of Season Two, she was "mature" enough to put the greater good ahead of her love for Angel. She put a sword through her lover's chest to stop him from releasing serious evil into the world, for chrissake.

I agree. But it sure as hell forced Buffy to finally grow up. Not everything in life happens smoothly. Certainly not real relationships.

And again, that doesn't make those relationships necessarily healthy or mature, nor does it follow that it's required to go through that much crap in order to grow up. Following that reasoning to its logical extreme, every woman should aspire to hook up with some bad boy whom she's gonna have to get a restraining order against in order for her to "grow up." That's not growing up, that's just f***ed up.

[Dlou444]

With Spike and Buffy it's much more of the latter. However I don't think Buffy needed to go through what she went through. A lot of people talk about Spike and Buffy as the 'adult' relationship but I personally feel it's one way an adult relationship can go. We don't need to be abused and to be an abuser to learn how to grow up. In fact I think that's a naive, narrow assumption in itself.

That isn't why I think Buffy and Spike is more of an "adult" relationship. I see the actual violence part as a product as the "super power" game, not as a real part of the relationship. Heck, Buffy and Angel duked it out a bit too.

The part that makes it more adult in my head is 1.) Buffy let herself be actually vulnerable with Spike. She lets him in on her fears and hopes in a way that is a LOT more open than she lets herself be with Angel. She was mad at herself for it, but people often get scared when they let themselves be that open. They want to take it back.
2.) We are allowed to see more "REASONS" for these feelings. Buffy and Angel came across as very superficial. Other than the Halloween episode where Angel tells her that he didn't like women from "his time" because they were boring, there is no real talk about WHY they like each other. It comes across as very high school and "Angel is dreamy and slightly mysterious". Which is fine for high school, but not really an adult love type thing.

Spike does more chatting about why he likes her. And, in her own way, even in Season 6, Buffy gives clues for why she likes him. For one thing, by not seeing him as perfect she doesn't have to be perfect for him. She knows he's safe, she knows he's loyal, and she can be sad and scared and not the all powerful slayer for him. Which even as much as she tries to deny it, still comes through quite clearly through most of the season. Even just all the times she gives Spike another chance or tries to get him "back on the path" in those last two seasons. Things she gave up on with Angel in Season 2. Just...oh he's bad, let's kill him. Some is that she's older, but Spike also gave MORE of himself to her than Angel did. Angel kept himself oddly closed off even in S1.

That's what says it's more mature in MY eyes. Sure, she's older. But, it's more in the way she reacts to Spike and him to her. It's that feeling of being strong and tough on the outside, but having one special person that you can be vulnerable to and NEED. A person you can lash our at on a bad day and 5 minutes later fall in their arms and know they'll catch you.

It's touching. I've had some superficial relationships and I've had some real ones. Buffy and Angel remind me of me and MY highschool boyfriend. We're still GREAT friends. We even have daughters born 4 hours apart. And I love him dearly. But, he makes a MUCH better "brother" figure than boyfriend. We're a great team, we hang out and play darts well. And I know he will have my back if things get bad. But, our relationship is and always has been very "idealized". We don't see each other for how we ARE, just how we want things to be. We've SEEN each other at our worst, but there was no "being vulnerable" it was being vulnerable but keeping up a facade where we were trying to pretend we had everything under control. It's a friendship I would NEVER give up, but it's a far cry from what I have with my husband!

[Lorne]

That's definitely an interesting way to put it, Buffy/Angel was the high school way relationship of the girly-girl go get them routine, and the Buffy/Spike deal was us seeing them growing up in the status quo as adults... well Spike was already an adult, albeit more childish in his ways, but he had some growing up to do and not just from the chip implanted in his brain by Riley and his gang who I despise with a passion. Spike had feelings for Buffy back when the two first met, they weren't as open and all lovey-dovey obviously but eventually, even Drusilla began to see that Spike had those kind of feelings towards Buffy, the mortal Slayer. I find it very ironic in a sense.

I myself feel completely positive that even without the chip in his head, Spike would have become the obsessed maniac and still gone for the soul routine for the chance to be with Buffy... if anything else to piss Angel off. Those are my feelings on that topic. I guess the Buffy/Spike relationship was alright just the way it came to an abrupt stop towards the middle when Spike began to push her a little too much into pressure about their 'secret' relationship from her friends which already seemed to get an idea that Buffy was seeing Spike, or at least Tara and Willow knew.

[LadyLavinia]

Yeah, it's a difficult one. It's neglible which relationship is worse and it also depends on why it's worse. The fact that consequentially there were defects does not ncessarily reflect on the nature of the persons involved, well not Buffy. She was innocent in his turning and no one exepcted Angel to lose his soul not even him. Though their relationship wasn't perfect, (show me a perfect relationship ) certainly this was the main issue and it wasn't really psychological but more metaphysical (well a little of the former but I would look at the the relationship between Angel and Angelus more closely for this)


The problem I had with Buffy and Angel's relationship was not its imperfection. I had trouble with it, because I don't think it allowed either Buffy or Angel to develop as characters. Perhaps you and others might think differently . . . but that's how I feel.

[Kana]

The problem I had with Buffy and Angel's relationship was not its imperfection. I had trouble with it, because I don't think it allowed either Buffy or Angel to develop as characters. Perhaps you and others might think differently . . . but that's how I feel.

Lol, well I do think differently. Mainly because, due to both Angel and Spike being involved with Buffy they became champions.

Also I don't know if Buffy needed to go through that period of self-loathing by using Spike. If anything that stopped Buffy's development in it's tracks. Well maybe not but Buffy's strength didn't come exclusively from Spike, Riley or Angel but a little from all of them and all of the caused her pain.

To me Buffy's development has been relatively continual no matter who she's been with. Certainly Angel learnt a lot from Buffy and so did Spike.

[Lorne]

I think Angel and Spike helped Buffy the most when it came to development, but for a 'natural' no vamp relationship Riley did help her wake up some as an adult, to help Buffy through the college days of finding someone to trust, then learning that even if you think you really know someone, sometimes there are things that are hidden deeper like Riley's betrayal and why he betrayed Buffy. You know what I mean, lol.

[VisionGuy]

Season six is my favorite season after season three. The growing up, Buffy's relationship with Spike, Willow's addiction to magic, the Tara goodness, almost everything in this season is flawless. Not to mention it's the only season without any Bangel crap. :hehe:

[Lorne]

I liked how they added Willow's magic addiction to the season, it showed what 'addictions' can do to people and sends messages out to the fans of all ages to not get addicted to things, especially things like drugs or computer role playing games (software games not just message board RPGs) etc.

[palabravampiress]

Well, I was the one who theorized that what happened in season 6 was a necessary part of maturation. Maybe it was a little narrow minded. I mean, I guess there are other ways to mature. I haven't seen them, but I guess they do exist. I'm not saying you have to have an exact copy of the Buffy/Spike dynamic, but I do think that most people do treat those they love (or like, or maybe even loathe) in a deplorable manner at some point and that, by regretting that choice, they learn something about themselves. I'm not saying that I think everyone has to be in a mutually abusive Buffy/Spike relationship in order to mature; instead, I'm saying that everyone has to test and know their own limits and face their own personal demons in order to mature. That relationship wasn't so much about sexual abuse as it was about those two facing the worst parts of themselves. Spike the man faced Spike the monster. Buffy faced the part of her that was dead. Not every person has a monster inside or feels dead. Other people face other problems. Buffy and Spike, however, had those problems. Facing those problems was, I think, necessary for their development as characters.

So even though I think I may have been a little hasty in employing the universal you, I still think people go down the facing their inner demons and their own limits route more often than most of us really feel comfortable admitting. I also think the people who are near and dear to us get caught in the line of fire more often than we'd like to admit, too. Maybe it doesn't happen to everyone. I do, however, think that most people do go through something similar in some way. That's why I love season 6 so very much. Most shows aren't brave enough to tackle that. Season 6 of Buffy tackled it with every character.

[Lorne]

That's what I was thinking too, I've been rewatching various episodes from my DVD collections and I've been seeing that a little more throughout the show. Season 6 has its qualities, its ups and downs and it has a few episodes of Season 6. It does seem to revolve around each character throughout the season. I think tha'ts one of the reasons why I liked it for season 6, that it was a little darker, and showed the sides of some characters we haven't really accepted or understood before.

[bob6666]

why does so many people hate xander for the way he treated spike

spike was never nice to him called him wheep and bricklayer and made fun of him

so when xander said the same type of thinks back he is a asshole

just for the record. when buffy was with spike he still
still tried to kill a women when he thought his chip did not work
sold deamon eggs that would of kill a lot of people
and tried to rape buffy.
he did some good but was not a good person then

xander went after him when he found his girlfriend with him. (nomal guy stuff) not sure if he tried to kill him just her him. (yes i know they broke up but xander tried to get back together. if he was a friend should not have spelt with her)

xander did not attack buffy when he found out he walk a way broken

when buffy came to his apartment he said
spike is evil (when a vimpire are, with out souls)
if the chip break he would kill us( his a good point)
spike cant love no soul no love( cannon vampire can love with out a soul they have werid obbsion but that not love)
and he said "it hurt that you did not tell me"

buffy said "you left anya at the alter"

xander came to her house to say he was sorry and he loved her. and spent the who sommer with her and dawn helping any way he can

xander is not perfect, but to make him the monster some act like he is wrong.

[UlaGan]

Wow, reading all those point did took a while, and it's hard to add much to discussion.
I just think Spike or William the Bloody was never the winner in love realm. Remember, how miserable he was trying to win Cecily's attention, or how often he was hurt by Dru who was also flirting with Angelus infront of him, and eventually dumped him for some demon, so, no wonder, he ended up being all messed up with Buffy. Soulless/Chipped/ChiplesswithSoul he's still but just the same looser in love matters. That man's so in need of personal pscychologist.

Buffy, Willow, everyone in S6 are just messed up as all of us get sometimes. Nothing but various shades of grey.

I liked Season 6 in general, yet with some exceptions, of course.
What I didn't like in S6 is Amy-gone-bad thing (it's just an emotion, I do know all the aspects, I just like sweet Amy of s1) and I didn't like the Trio - all those 'slippery weasels', nay, not my types of villains - more like mosquitos with Warren like killer-bee among them.
I adored watching Wrecked at lot.

[Dlou444]

Everytime this title shows up in my CP I have 1 and only 1 urge.....

"Yep, you're the only one who hated season 6" YEA! I DID IT!

Sure, maybe not the only one EVER...but I consulted the dogs, the cat, the snake, the frogs, the kids, even Hubby and we've decided you're the only one....at least here. :lmao:

[SMGfan17]

I absolutely loved Season 6. It was defiantely my favorite.

[Fake Shemp]

Frakin' LOVE season 6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my black and white cat willow agrees with me... *miow*

[The Ferg]

Yes, I think you are...

Season 6 was my very first whole season that I bought, and it's still my favorite.
Anyway, I just think you're totally missing the point. It seems like your only looking at Spike's feelings, and no one elses. Xander was really the only person that truly hated Spike, and Buffy and Spike had mixed feelings towards eachother. See: Once More, With Feeling (Through the Fire)
Spike - "I hope she fries
"I'm free if that bitch dies"
"I better help her out"

I don't wanna make a huge reply, so I think I got my point across. :) (HEY! I just joined! Can't wait to get into things!)

[TheHeartist]

Everytime this title shows up in my CP I have 1 and only 1 urge.....

"Yep, you're the only one who hated season 6" YEA! I DID IT!

Sure, maybe not the only one EVER...but I consulted the dogs, the cat, the snake, the frogs, the kids, even Hubby and we've decided you're the only one....at least here. :lmao:

Actually...I disliked it. Too depressing for my tastes.

[Legate Damar]

It was neither my favorite nor my least favorite, it was somewhere in the middle. I didn't hate it, but it is very hard to watch over a short period of time. It's a little too darkity dark dark. Fine, SOME characters can have their lives in the crapper, but need ALL of them to be at the same time?

That said, there was some of the best storytelling going on during that season. Right up there with S2.

[Fireball]

Im half way though S6 at the moment, and although somewhat dark, is very good. I love Buffy's resurection and such, plus the light hearted episodes and of corse the musical. But one thing that gets me is Spike's charecter change from after Buffy returned. In late S5 he was very sweet too her and the gang to, especially in "The Gift". But in S6 he seems to return to his old ways all of a sudden, he seems to push Buffy too her darker place... why has he changed from, what seemed to me, in S5, he wanted to be treated normal and wanted Buffy to treat him as normal, but then all of a sudden wanted her too treat him as her dirty seceret. I just dont like the way Spike plays with her, insted of trying to help her, he uses her for his lust. Buffy obviusly needed someone, which of coarse is one of the main points of the Season, but what gets me is Spike could have helped her, but didnt, which tainted Spike (and Buffy in someways too) for me. Just my opinion.

[Blondie Bear]

^ I can answer that from an outside point of view. Spike is Buffy's shadow in an archetypal sense. In this season, he represents the dark, repressed, denied part of her. She spends the majority of the season integrating her shadow in order to become a more well-rounded human being. They rub off on each other; she learns that she has a dark side and how to deal with it, and he becomes a better person, the kind of person who would go seeking his soul.

From an actual in-character point of view, Spike has had to try to be good in order to stay arou