The Sister Inclusion

[SlayerGuy91]

Was anyone sorta mad that Dawn was added to the story in Season 5? I mean think about it like this way, after watching Buffy the previous 4 years we get a good sense of what the Scoobies lives are like but then Dawn is added to the story and everyone in contact with her had their memories altered so we don't know how much of the previous years Buffy and the gang remember differently. It's like those previous years were different to them, some of the experiences we loved seeing were altered in the characters minds so they weren't the same as the ones we watched. This making sense to anyone?

[Hit The Books]

I know what you mean and feel exactly the same. Still, I guess it depend on how much was altered - if it was simply a case, as others have said, of her being "dropped into" the memories then things would have happened more or less the same, but with an added person involved.

Still, we know the reality ;).

[white avenger]

The Dawn/Key thing was a necessary element for the Season 5 plot line, but, yes, I felt as though it was a kind of dirty trick to pull on the fans. In some ways, it reminded me of the way Bobby Ewing was brought back after being killed in the series "Dallas" quite a few years ago (For those who either didn't see it or don't remember, the entire season was simply explained as a dream of one of the characters). There were ways that Dawn could have been introduced into the cast as something other that a phony sister and STILL been the Key if they simply wanted to have a younger cast member.

[Senior Watcher]

i dont think it was a dirty trick at all. i wont deny, however, that i was thrown off a bit. but i have faith in joss and the writers to come up with an amazing reason for dawns introduction.

also, dont forget that dawn was technically introduced in a dream sequence with buffy and faith in season 3. which means the writers had known for a long while what the plan was.

[partofyourworld]

I thought it was confusing but it was necasserry for the rest of the season. Joss and the writers couldn't have had Dawn as a new found friend as that would have been to obvious to Glory. It would have been interestiong to see how diffrent everyones memories would have been.

[Blondie Bear]

To be quite honest, when that first happened (during the original on TV WB run), I quit watching. I was so annoyed; it felt like one of those stupid ploys that those stupid TV people pull all the freaking time. Like they think we're idiots or something. But then I started collecting the DVDs (cause I'd really only seen Seasons 3 and part of 4 up til then) and bought Season 5 because (sigh) it was next. After watching that season, I still didn't like Dawn, but I appreciated that the writers had found a believable (for Buffy) way of inserting Dawn. It wasn't just "Yeah, she's had a sister. Didn't you know?" with a COMPLETE rewriting of the entire backstory. There was magic involved, and a reason for Dawn to be there (albeit a sort of lame reason, but okay), and she's kind of grown on me over the many many many many watchings of the series. Though until Season 7, I still mostly wish she'd just shut up.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

I thought it was a good idea. Well, I got a little angry first watching it, but Dawn became one of the best characters, and if she hadn't been there the whole show would have been different. Joss planned it the whole time, and I'm glad he did it when he did, because Michelle was great at the part, and if he'd have done it earlier, it's likely they'd have had someone younger and the 'kid factor' as I've heard it called on more than one occasion would have kicked in. So it was good it happened when it did, I think.

[Tranquillity]

I don't mind the introduction of dawn because it had a purpose and she was at the end of the day a device that allowed both Buffy and Spike to grow as characters. She wasn't used as well in seasons six and seven. If you like the Buffy fiction there are a couple of stories that have events of the earllier seasons (pre-dawn) retold with her included in them as have some of the earlier Buffy comics.

[GATEGOD]

I'lll just look at it this way, Dawn never existed when seasons 1-4 happened, so I'll never think of her as if she did.
I'm fine thinking that because if i think to hard and add her in things feel cheated lol

[Keanoite]

When it first happened it really annoyed me. Like I had spent 4 years invested in a show and now suddenly it as good as never happened, like an even more twisted IWRY!! But I eventually got over it, I'll take Buffy any way I can get it. Dawn and all!

[Lyle]

I see how it can almost ruin the earlier seasons, because it's like suddenly all the main characters remember things differently than we the fans do. I like to figure that once everyone learned about Dawn, the veil was lifted in a sense and they got their old memories back (after all, they were able to approximate around when Dawn was created). May not be true but it lets me sleep at night...

[AngeliqueLaBeouf]

I didn't mind the fact that Dawn was added in the way she was, I just automatically nodded and took it on board that she was Buffy's younger sister. I mean I can see how some people would get pissed off and how easily it could have ruined the show completely, but for me it was natural because Michelle and Sarah's acting was so wonderfully done that it felt like Dawn had been there the entire time.

With the fact of the character's remembering the previous season's and events differently because of Dawn, I always just assumed since she would have been a little younger in the previous seasons that she wasn't really involved in anything the Gang was doing... and when she was involved by accident then Buffy would kind of pawn her off to someone for safety. I know that was a terrible way to describe it, but I couldn't think of a better way to say it. Basically she would be like Joyce, kind of on the outskirts of the storylines, but slowly coming in more and more and learning more about Buffy and the Scoobies...

I've always liked Dawn, she added a new demension to the 5th season, gave it more storyline and I don't think the Key storyline would have worked if she hadn't have been Buffy's sister ... for starters how would they explain Buffy sacrificing herself to close the portal without her being the same Blood as Dawn?

xxAngiexx

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

i was mad. i had that WTF moment at the end of the first episode of the season and then was like "sister? SISTER?" i mean even though they gave the explanation that she wasn't real and they were just "given" these memories, i thought it was lousy. Buffy seemed like an only child prior to that so it just seemed too weird.

[codyw1]

I agree with Angelique. Don't have a problem with it at all, fascinating. And Dawn and Michelle were brilliant, too, which makes it even better.

[Nabila]

Before Dawn was added to the cast, I liked the fact that Buffy, Willow, Xander, and even Cordy did not have siblings. It was quite a fascinating coincidence. I'm not too sure about Oz, Wesley, and Giles but they didn't seem to have any too.

Anyway, I was really annoyed with the inclusion of Dawn. She was needed for the story to work but she was just too mean and selfish for someone who is supposed to be an "innocent". If the excuse is she's supposed to appear as a normal teenager, well, that's an insult to teenagers. The altered memories also made me angry because it is mind rape. Angel got a lot of criticism in Ats S5 for this same situation.

The inclusion of Dawn also worked against what is canon in Buffyverse, that is, magic is unstable. I was expecting Dawn to weaken or have a crisis of near death because she is a creature of magic. What is sustaining her? Her creator, the monks, were all dead. Maybe one of you has a theory about why she lasted this long without a crisis to her existence which should have been fragile. I would really be grateful.

And yet her inclusion could have worked well with Adam's comment about magic in the episode Superstar. He said that magic results in chaos, that's why he won't interfere with Jonathan's fantasy. If I see it that way, then Dawn's appearance did start the chaos in the personal lives of the Scoobies all the way to S7.:biggrin:

[UlaGan]

The inclusion of Dawn also worked against what is canon in Buffyverse, that is, magic is unstable. I was expecting Dawn to weaken or have a crisis of near death because she is a creature of magic. What is sustaining her? Her creator, the monks, were all dead. ...


Yeah, that's all weird.
Regarding magical nature of Dawn - that's could've been Buffy's blood to sustain her, but than Buffy was dead for several months- so that's works against theory.
So, we're just left to accept whole thing and enjoy the series further.

[Nabila]

Originally posted by UlaGanYeah, that's all weird.
Regarding magical nature of Dawn - that's could've been Buffy's blood to sustain her, but than Buffy was dead for several months- so that's works against theory.
So, we're just left to accept whole thing and enjoy the series further.

That's interesting. I forgot all about Buffy's blood but then again like you said Buffy died, and yet Dawn is still healthy.lol That makes it double weird now. Actually I still loved the show of course even with Dawn but it is so much more fun to pick at details. This one really bugs me. A lot. Thank you for your input.

[UlaGan]

That's interesting. I forgot all about Buffy's blood but then again like you said Buffy died, and yet Dawn is still healthy.lol That makes it double weird now. Actually I still loved the show of course even with Dawn but it is so much more fun to pick at details. This one really bugs me. A lot. Thank you for your input.

I just thought of possible solution:

Oh, does Dad count? He's the one responsible for Buffy's blood and he remains alive (Mom's out of list - since she's dead as well).

[Nabila]

I just thought of possible solution:

Oh, does Dad count? He's the one responsible for Buffy's blood and he remains alive (Mom's out of list - since she's dead as well).

Thanks again, and it's so easy for me,again, to forget about the dad because he was in L.A. That's totally possible of course and would be a good solution. I just thought of this :the blood might really have meant the slayer's blood. Buffy told Dawn it's Summers blood they shared, but was Buffy just trying to make Dawn feel she belonged to the family? Maybe there's a clue in the words of that crazy monk. I should have a look again.

[UlaGan]

Thanks again, and it's so easy for me,again, to forget about the dad because he was in L.A. That's totally possible of course and would be a good solution. I just thought of this :the blood might really have meant the slayer's blood. Buffy told Dawn it's Summers blood they shared, but was Buffy just trying to make Dawn feel she belonged to the family? Maybe there's a clue in the words of that crazy monk. I should have a look again.

Yeah, could be, Hm.. I re-watched that resently. Ah, subject didn't really matter much to me (before you brought that up), so I dunno.
Well, if Summers blood is the key - than Dad counts. if Not.. gotta watch again..

Oh, wait a sec., if Slayer blood is the key - how about Faith? She's the full-time Slayer too. Noone 'fired' her. And if there's link of Potentials from one to another - they might be methaporically related to each other in some way.

Should we count Faith in?

[Randy Giles]

I don't mind that Dawn was introduced at all. She fits in perfectly with the rest of the gang, she's a good character. And Buffy obviously considers her more than just a magical force who was inserted into her life.

Perhaps when Dawn was created the timeline was altered too. Since in their memories Dawn was in all their previous adventures, maybe she WAS, and she just changed the line. OK I know that's NOT what they said happened but still.

I don't really feel that she cheapens the earlier seasons in any way, everything still happened pretty much, except Dawn was still there.

Wouldn't it have been interesting if everyone had gotten their memory back at some point and remembered life pre-Dawn?

[Nabila]

Yeah, could be, Hm.. I re-watched that resently. Ah, subject didn't really matter much to me (before you brought that up), so I dunno.
Well, if Summers blood is the key - than Dad counts. if Not.. gotta watch again..

Oh, wait a sec., if Slayer blood is the key - how about Faith? She's the full-time Slayer too. Noone 'fired' her. And if there's link of Potentials from one to another - they might be methaporically related to each other in some way.

Should we count Faith in?

Truly if you watch again, notice the monk never said anything about blood. He just said his brethren gave the key flesh and human form and sent it to Buffy because they know she would protect the key. I guess the blood thing originated from what Spike said about it's always the blood or something.

I can certainly live with your theory about Faith because I'm leaning more towards slayer blood. Hey, you're good at this! It's something I can mull over while I am watching S5 all over again from No Place Like home.:lmao:

Originally posted by Randy Giles
Wouldn't it have been interesting if everyone had gotten their memory back at some point and remembered life pre-Dawn?

Oh yes, and if that starts some conflict within the group then it would have been fantastic to see how it would be resolved. I mean I just felt that the origin of Dawn means there's more to her. It would have been a riveting story if it was explored more at least in S7. For me, that would have been more interesting than the whinning of the potentials.

[UlaGan]

Truly if you watch again, notice the monk never said anything about blood. He just said his brethren gave the key flesh and human form and sent it to Buffy because they know she would protect the key. I guess the blood thing originated from what Spike said about it's always the blood or something.

I can certainly live with your theory about Faith because I'm leaning more towards slayer blood. Hey, you're good at this! It's something I can mull over while I am watching S5 all over again from No Place Like home.:lmao:


As I already stated before - watching Buffy from begining picking up all lil hints and vague clues - is quite a fun!

[Dlou444]

Well, I had given the "magic dissolving" thing some thought toward the end of Season 5 when they're all huddled in the gas station thing. I started wondering if she might just fade away...or start to at some point. (I kind of wanted to see the "pretty light" everyone was talking about.)

But, when she didn't I reconciled it as this.....

She WAS a magical key. But the Monks turned her into a person. At which point, she was kept alive the same way we are. Heart, brain, lungs and all that was self-sustaining on it's own. The magic never seems to really lend itself to LIVING things that I could remember.

Dead cat comes back...only went away because Zombie mask thing was broken on Pat's face. That was magic and the way Giles reacted to the book wasn't like, "Oh, if we avoid the zombies a while they'll die again." Same with when they were talking about bringing Joyce back. The downfall wasn't that the magic wouldn't last.

Dawn DID turn a bit SELF destructive there for a while (and doesn't seem to be shaping up very quickly from what I've read of the comics). Does self destructing count as coming apart?

[Bangelxx]

I felt the same really
Dawn came too quickly...just when i was getting to know the characters....
although now it seems like she'd always been there!

[Nabila]

Originally posted by Dlou444
She WAS a magical key. But the Monks turned her into a person. At which point, she was kept alive the same way we are. Heart, brain, lungs and all that was self-sustaining on it's own. The magic never seems to really lend itself to LIVING things that I could remember.

That's a good one! It makes a lot of sense as well. After all, she was a thousand, even more, year old ball of energy. She may well have been the source of the powerful knowledge the monks possessed.

Originally posted by Dlou444
Dawn DID turn a bit SELF destructive there for a while (and doesn't seem to be shaping up very quickly from what I've read of the comics). Does self destructing count as coming apart?

There were times when I felt sorry for Dawn because, honestly, I thought she was really mentally unstable. Maybe just like Glory, she feels out of her element in this dimension. She is no longer the key that opens that door. But does that change what she is? All that energy locked up in fragile human form. This reminds me a bit of Illyria's dilemma. And yes I believe the self-destructive behaviour could be a sign she's falling apart. This is good I have more complications to chew on now. Thanks:biggrin: