Who is the real 'Champion'?

[Senior Watcher]

I believe that the true Champion is Spike. "Spike!" you say?

Even though Angel has a soul, his soul was forced upon him. Spikes was acquired through multiple trials; and most importantly, love.

As for Connor, I found it hard to predict his future since he was only remembering his past near the end of Season 5, and we did not receive a full understanding of how he was coping with his new identity. However, he does possess the strength, skill and knowledge to become a true champion.

[white avenger]

Angel was called a champion by himself, Wesley, and a few others. At the end of the Buffy series, when he said that the amulet could only be worn by a "Champion" (note the capital "C" is my designation only, but I think of it that way in that circumstance), Buffy sent Angel away, second front either the reason or the excuse, and I prefer the latter, and designated Spike as her Champion. That's the way I have always thought of him since that moment: the Slayer's Champion, the only one to my knowledge that she ever gave that designation in the seven year run of the series.

[TabulaRasa]

Spike went looking for his soul. On his own. I feel like he is the real champion. As much as I love Angel!

[jesterjay]

Angel! Wooo Hoooo...sorry I am so bias it's stupid. But I'm going with Angel on this one. And no, not for my usual "it was his own show" reasons either. I believe that Angel will always fight for what's right, where as Spike could very well just fight for a bottle of rye. They've both waivered, but Angel knows the score and Spike seems too flights of fancy type for the true Champion lifestyle. And I mean come on...Angel went up against the Grusilug (no clue if that's how you spell it)

Bangel For Ever!

[alexa]

Why does there have to be only 1?
Angel, Spike, Buffy and I guess Connor in the future would be champions. Although I'm sort of not liking this term anymore because it's being thrown around so much. Spike went for his soul to get Buffy, he didn't do it to be a champion... gimme a break people :p I love Spike, but he's not perfect.
Angel clearly isn't perfect either, which is a part of what makes his character so interesting.
Don't understand why there has to be a competition *constantly* I guess that's what some people like ;)

[Jade In The Sky]

I agree with kanga :) I don't think there has to be one champion with capital letters. Like months ago I would have said Spike because of his quest for his soul and sacrifice which broke my heart :P but I've been watching Angel lately and there the term is used a lot: to Angel by his group and to the group by Angel. So I think what is important is not who'll be on top but that a champion means someone who is always fighting for what is right, you know never give up never surrender. It's not about strengh as physical strengh or who's been killing the greatest monsters but as inner strengh and in this category there are few people in both shows that can be expelled. Like Angel said somewhere in season 4: "We're all champions". A little cheesy and I STILL prefer Spike but he was right :)

[Bored of the Dead]

Props to Spike, he went and sought his soul BUT stop bashing Angel because he had his thrust upon him.

Spike had time to understand what he was doing so when he got his conscience back he didn't have as many 'demons' to fight because he understood who he had been - Angel didn't have that.

Angelus was classed as one of the most heinous Vampire of all time, finding pleasure in the most horrific way possible then bing bang bong he is forced to truly understand the terrors he has commited.
It takes alot of strength to fight for something that is, in essence, against who you are BUT it takes just as much, if not more, strength and courage to continue that fight after you are forced into something you didn't want in the first place.

Angel deserves Champion status because he didn't give up. He had moments of doubt, he had times when he actually almost gave in completely but just before that came he realized he had more. Maybe it was through insight, maybe it was through someone showing him the way, it doesn't matter, he came through.

The 'Champion' stuff in season 7 is because Angel uses the term. Champion was always something from Angel and crossed over for the finale. None of these people were Champions because they called themselves it, they were Champions because they fought the good fight, the waivered but came back and ultimately were willing to sacrifice everything for what they believed in.

There were other Champions in the shows.

Buffy, Spike, Angel, Connor(potential), Willow, Xander, Giles, Gunn, Fred, Wesley, Lorne(possibly), The Potentials(who went down fighting), Faith, Kendra, Tara, Cordelia, Anya...getting the picture.
These are the 'REAL' Champions(along with others i'm sure).

[TabulaRasa]

Why does there have to be only 1?
Angel, Spike, Buffy and I guess Connor in the future would be champions. Although I'm sort of not liking this term anymore because it's being thrown around so much. Spike went for his soul to get Buffy, he didn't do it to be a champion... gimme a break people :p I love Spike, but he's not perfect.
Angel clearly isn't perfect either, which is a part of what makes his character so interesting.
Don't understand why there has to be a competition *constantly* I guess that's what some people like ;)


I don't think Spike got his soul to be a champion. I think it takes a champion without to a soul to go get one. No matter what it's for. But I think he proved himself pretty big in helping Buffy and the gang, taking care of Dawn, saving the world, then going and helping Angel.

Angel saved many lives but you and I know that he never would have gone to get his soul when soulless because he liked being bad.

So, that's what I meant about Spike.

[apocalypse]

I don't think Spike got his soul to be a champion. I think it takes a champion without to a soul to go get one. No matter what it's for. But I think he proved himself pretty big in helping Buffy and the gang, taking care of Dawn, saving the world, then going and helping Angel.

Angel saved many lives but you and I know that he never would have gone to get his soul when soulless because he liked being bad.

So, that's what I meant about Spike.

I agree that Angelus never would have gone to get his soul but I think that Spike never would've gotten his back if he hadn't have had that chip forcibly inserted into his brain, he just would have continued killing people.

[TabulaRasa]

Well it really depends. Do you remember by the end of season 2 when Spike said to Buffy "Hello Cutie"....? Well I think it is very possible that in time, as he did with the chip, he would have realized without the chip he loved Buffy. I mean, come on, even Dru knew it. So, with that it is a possibility he would have done some of the same things that he did. Like jump in the middle of her fights with vamps and try to 'save' her. You just never know I guess.

But Angel without a soul wouldn't be a champion either, so you would really have to weigh the odds. Which is why I give the grail to Spike, who did choose his soul, no matter what the reason. I just think Spike would have ended up getting it anyways because even without the chip he loved Buffy. But that's my opinion. Even with a chip he could have chosen not to help Buffy fight against evil. The chip didn't give him a soul, it just didn't allow him to fight againts humans. He really could have sat around, drinking with his demon buddies and what not. But he didn't, he chose to fight, without a soul against evil alongside Buffy and her friends. He even protected Dawn. It's just a bigger deal than we like to think it is. Chip doesn't equal soul.
Spike's a champion.

I love Angel tho, let's not forget that.

[Dlou444]

Well, personally, I doubt there HAS to be one...unless you're going by the Shansu thing. I mean, they all seemed to do what they THOUGHT was right most of the time and all of them screwed up sometimes.

But, if we're really comparing Spike to Angel and who is "better"....I think I'll always have to go with Spike.

If only because whe Angel doesn't have his soul, he's a stark raving lunatic who is not only a killer but going out of his way to terrorize and hurt people in strange psychological abuse type ways.

Even in the flash backs, Spike always seemed to have a bit more of a "tender" side. If only in trying to save his Mom and really loving Drusilla. Angelus just seemed out to be an evil jerk.

When Spike didn't have a soul, he was actually kind of amusing and fun to be around. Sure, for a while he couldn't bite people, but he could have done all those other things like not TELL them he had a chip and leave flowers, kill their fish...heck, find some other vampires to kill the people and he could have still ate them. Could have gone back with Drusilla, stayed with Harmony, or just found a buddy. And he didn't.

And, I never felt like he got the soul to "GET" Buffy. I always felt like he went to get it so that there wasn't a chance he'd ever hurt her again...or almost hurt her. Because he was sorry and the thought she deserved better.
And, sadly, Angel's just a JERK without his soul. MUCH meaner than Spike was even without his soul, without the chip and TRYING to be evil. Spike helped Buffy out without any of those things and seemed perfectly okay to hang out with. Delightful might not be the right word...but compared to Angelus...maybe it is.

I'll give Angel his due for when he has a soul, but if I had to pick one Champion to save me...I'd be picking the one without the iffy Loophole that could make the soul go away, the one who WANTED the soul, and the one that if that darned soul accidently disappeared might not be as dangerous to deal with.

Not to mention, I like the amusing sarcasm, even if he would battle someone for a beer....MUCH more attractive than the brooding. And I like the Get Up And Go of "Buffy can't trust me...I'll go fight for a soul" a lot more than, we can't be together, I'll up and leave you, move to LA and we can meet up every so often and be sad we can't be together.

So, as for my personal Champion I'd pick Spike, on "Who Makes The Better Boyfriend" I'd pick Spike and for the hanging out and eating Pizza and drinking beer, I'd pick Spike.
Although, for amusing me by singing to my vast Barry Manilow collection (which is vast) I'd have to pick Angel.

[WickedWillow]

Spike. I believe he is the real champion.

[GATEGOD]

Spike, he got the mountain dew cup!!!

Anyways, plus he actually wanted a soul when he didn't have one, Angelus on the other hand ...

[Bored of the Dead]

I'm starting to get frustrated by the whole 'Spike went for his soul' argument.

Angel was forced to completely understand every single act of evil he had ever done in less that a moment.

What did he do with that?

He contrinued to live.

I know most people would take their own life but Angel didn't.
Spike knew the price of the soul, he was cognizant of all he had done.

Spike, he got the mountain dew cup!!!

And this?
Please!!!

This is not any means at all to judge if Spike is the champion or not. Watch the show again.

[GATEGOD]

I'm starting to get frustrated by the whole 'Spike went for his soul' argument.

Angel was forced to completely understand every single act of evil he had ever done in less that a moment.

What did he do with that?

He contrinued to live.

I know most people would take their own life but Angel didn't.
Spike knew the price of the soul, he was cognizant of all he had done.



And this?
Please!!!

This is not any means at all to judge if Spike is the champion or not. Watch the show again.

lol i have 4 times... :coolman:

[Dlou444]

But, there IS something to be said for going after the soul vs. getting it thrust upon you. And it's not like he picked it up at Walmart, he did have to decide to do it, go hunt it down, go through a bunch of what looked like extremely fun "trials", and then went batty from the guilt (and the First, but the guilt too)

I think the KEY for me is not so much how they were like WITH the soul, but more how they were without it. Maybe Spike just always had a soft spot and that made him more "likeable" in general. But, Angelus is just a prick and downright evil. Sure, ANGEL is a fabulous guy. But, you take away that soul and he's drops FAR.

Spike, not so bad without his soul. And the "Chip Argument" doesn't faze me much, since he helped out before the chip and really had no reason to "turn to good" with the chip. Heck, Andrew and Jonathan didn't run around killing people and sucking them dry and THEY were "villians". Spike could have found a way to have had his dirty dealings if he wanted to. He could have at least done all those mean things Angelus did. He killed Willows poor little fishies!

I have NO problem with Angel...well, he can get rather obsessive with the depression at times...other than the Angelus side.

[Keanoite]

Spike is winning this!! this is a travesty!! Angel is the Champion!! So say the powers!! There is no doubt that Spike is a champion but Angel is numero uno!!

[Dlou444]

Well, the Powers DID say he was a Champion and I think Angel IS a Champion.
It was really the whole Shanshu thing that said there could be only one. And even then, it was EVE that said there could only be one and even if that is what she thought was true she was getting her info from WR&H, so we don't really KNOW that there couldn't be two. Or that the fact that there was two Vampires with a Soul meant it had to be one or the other or maybe both.

I think the Powers had to have something to do with Spike getting to LA. Just my theory. But, it would have been extremely hard for WR&H to get that necklace thingie out of the giant pit in the ground in Sunnydale and mail it. Personally, I think the Powers wanted them BOTH there.

But, I'm not sure I'm really falling for the theory that there could only be ONE.

I guess my stand goes more to who is the better Soulless Vampire than who is the better Champion.

[GATEGOD]

why can't they both be Champions, and neither better then the other ^_^ then everyones happy :)

[Keanoite]

I think W&H wanted and expected Angel to wear that necklace and knew what would happen to him cuz of it, why else would they give it to him? I mean the deal to hand over W&H would have been too easy otherwise. My theory is that they expected Angel to wear it, die and get sent back and so they would have Angel trapped in W&H and they would still be in control of W&H and more importantly Angel.

[Dlou444]

Well, I'm not sure what I think of that theory. I know they said it, but it never made sense.

Angel has the necklace thingy, says he got it from a "not remotely" reliable source. Which I assume means WR&H. But, when Spike wears it, it only kicks in at the right moment to save the world. Then the world caves in and it's buried in a pit.

Now, I guess we can say WR&H somehow got it out of the pit and mailed it to Angel. But, in reality, we already know that just wearing the thing doesn't kill you. In fact, we have to assume you have to wear it in an important battle...when you need "Purifying Power, Cleansing Power or possibly Scrubbing Bubbles"

All in all the thing doesn't seem extremely dangerous. Or, to be more precise, it would MORE dangerous to WR&H. Angel could have thrown it on during the finale, killed everyone...and maybe died, but now we know it can also bring people back. I'm not entirely sure WR&H would deliver him a do-hickey that had already proven itself to kill mass, unthinkable amounts of evil and save the world.

And THEN....if they DID know it would bring Angel back and keep him "trapped" at WR&H, then they would also know that it would bring Spike there. Which would be a clue in to Angel. If they DIDN'T know Spike would come back and thought it might just kill Angel, like it killed Spike....then it throws the whole "trapped" thing out of the mix and just makes it an extremely risky way to get rid of a vampire.

[Bored of the Dead]

lol i have 4 times...
Then if you still believe Mountain Dew Cup was a decider in the 'Champion' stakes, you haven't understood what happened.

Spike won, no doubt, but that was actually set up by Lindsay and in no way means that Spike is anything more than a souled Vampire.
Spike only 'wanted' it more than Angel at that time.


But, there IS something to be said for going after the soul vs. getting it thrust upon you. And it's not like he picked it up at Walmart, he did have to decide to do it, go hunt it down, go through a bunch of what looked like extremely fun "trials", and then went batty from the guilt (and the First, but the guilt too)

Yes there is something to be said about it.
Soulless Spike is a better 'person' than soulless Angel.
Thats all.

For all intent and purpose Pre and Post soul these two characters are completely different beings.
However, look at the transition after both got their souls back.
Who is most like they used to be?
The answer is a resounding 'Spike'.
He had time to come to terms with what he was getting, he understood what he was doing so when his soul was restored he was as prepared as possible for what was coming, also in part because he knew what Angel had gone through.
Angel, however, had none of this. He had to deal with everything that Angelus was, everything he'd done at the moment of resouling. This is not an argument for which is a better champion because I believe that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who fights and is willing to die in these shows are a champion, i'm just bored of reading the argument that Spike fought for his soul.

Do you hold Angel responsible for the acts Angelus did?
Is he responsible for killing Jenny Calendar or was that Angelus?

If you don't blame Angelus for that, you can't give credit to Souled Spike for Soulless Spike getting his soul back.

[palabravampiress]

I chose Spike.

It makes a more interesting story for Angel, actually. Angel got used to being special. Enter Spike, who beats him for the cup for all of the reasons listed here so far. Spike really was the better man. Hands down. So Angel freaks out... starts seriously thinking maybe he isn't "the one." Maybe the apocolypse isn't about him getting his real boy reward, after all, maybe it's actually about something bigger, like doing the right thing to save the world. Then, he comes to terms with that and signs away his rights to the Sanshu prophecy. In the end, Angel no longer believed he was "the one." He was able to put aside his own hubris and his own the-world-revolves-around-me attitude to do the right thing. He gave up control. He let Spike have his reward. Angel voluntarily dropped the "Champion" mantle.

So Spike was the upper-case-letter "Champion" who won the Sanshu prophecy. But Angel was a lower-case letter champion like Buffy and the potentials and Wes and Cordy and everyone else who gave their lives so that others could live. That's a huge chunk of character development for Angel. That makes him a hero by choice, not just because it was thrust upon him all those years ago. To say that he was the "Champion" even though he gave it up kind of detracts from the importance of his decision.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

Angel or Spike...in my opinion

[Keanoite]

I chose Spike.

It makes a more interesting story for Angel, actually. Angel got used to being special. Enter Spike, who beats him for the cup for all of the reasons listed here so far. Spike really was the better man. Hands down. So Angel freaks out... starts seriously thinking maybe he isn't "the one." Maybe the apocolypse isn't about him getting his real boy reward, after all, maybe it's actually about something bigger, like doing the right thing to save the world. Then, he comes to terms with that and signs away his rights to the Sanshu prophecy. In the end, Angel no longer believed he was "the one." He was able to put aside his own hubris and his own the-world-revolves-around-me attitude to do the right thing. He gave up control. He let Spike have his reward. Angel voluntarily dropped the "Champion" mantle.

So Spike was the upper-case-letter "Champion" who won the Sanshu prophecy. But Angel was a lower-case letter champion like Buffy and the potentials and Wes and Cordy and everyone else who gave their lives so that others could live. That's a huge chunk of character development for Angel. That makes him a hero by choice, not just because it was thrust upon him all those years ago. To say that he was the "Champion" even though he gave it up kind of detracts from the importance of his decision.

By signing away his Shanshu Angel did not 'drop the Champion mantle' and he certainly didn't do it to let Spike have his reward. That's like saying he threw in the towel and gave up the fight. He was acting like a true Champion by giving it up. Putting the greater good before his own personal gains. THAT is what being a Champion is all about. It seems that you are basing Spike being the better man simply because he got the cup. A worthless-piece-of-nothing-cup. The only thing proven by that whole escapade was that Angel had lost touch on what he was supposed to be doing, it in no way reflected who was the better man. Also the way you describe Angel as 'dropping' the Champion mantle is strange. Being a Champion is out of his control, he was chosen, just like Buffy was called. He didn't decide to be a Champion, the powers picked him. True, he needed some encouragement but he still couldn't just decide to be one if he hadn't been picked. At the end of the day we don't know who the Champion is because neither he nor Spike has done done enough to be rewarded. Yet.

[palabravampiress]

By signing away his Shanshu Angel did not 'drop the Champion mantle' and he certainly didn't do it to let Spike have his reward. That's like saying he threw in the towel and gave up the fight. He was acting like a true Champion by giving it up. Putting the greater good before his own personal gains. THAT is what being a Champion is all about.

No. You misunderstand! I simplified the Spike parts because I was trying to get into Angel's head. I agree with the part in bold. I think Angel's sacrifice was awesome and meaningful. I think it made him a hero and a champion.


It seems that you are basing Spike being the better man simply because he got the cup. A worthless-piece-of-nothing-cup. The only thing proven by that whole escapade was that Angel had lost touch on what he was supposed to be doing, it in no way reflected who was the better man.

I'm not saying Spike is the better man because he got the cup. I'm saying Angel started to believe that Spike was the better man because Spike won the cup. That's different. What matters here isn't so much who won the cup or why as it is what Angel thinks about who won the cup and why. That sent off a chain reaction of thoughts that, eventually, led Angel to sacrifice the Sanshu prophecy for the good of the world.


Also the way you describe Angel as 'dropping' the Champion mantle is strange. Being a Champion is out of his control, he was chosen, just like Buffy was called. He didn't decide to be a Champion, the powers picked him. True, he needed some encouragement but he still couldn't just decide to be one if he hadn't been picked. At the end of the day we don't know who the Champion is because neither he nor Spike has done done enough to be rewarded. Yet.

I'm making a difference between being the "Champion" from the Sanshu prophecy and a champion. Angel voluntarily signed away the first designation. That's why I think the first designation goes to Spike. But I don't mean that as an insult to Angel or anything like that. I think that by voluntarily choosing to sacrifice that, he proved himself a champion - maybe not the "Champion" from the Sanshu prophecy, but still a champion. It was an admirable thing.

I don't think being a champion is about what's forced on you. I think it's about what you choose. Sure, the powers picked Angel. But he rose to the occasion. I think the choices that you make are what's important. If Angel was just a champion because it was thrust upon him by the powers, I don't think that would mean very much or be very impressive. In the end, Angel chose to be a champion. He did that by sacrificing the thrust upon him kind of champion title and accepting the one that he earned by his actions. Does that make sense?

I'm not saying Angel's a lesser man. I'm saying that giving up the champion-by-prophecy thing, he became a champion-by-choice, which, in my opinion, means a lot more.

[Keanoite]

Oh ok, that clears it up quite a bit. I thought you were belittling who Angel was and what he went through to get to where he was but I see where you were coming from now. I tend to get my back up if I think people are lessening Angel's character!! My apologies!

[palabravampiress]

Oh ok, that clears it up quite a bit. I thought you were belittling who Angel was and what he went through to get to where he was but I see where you were coming from now. I tend to get my back up if I think people are lessening Angel's character!! My apologies!

Glad I could clear that up. :-)

I waver on my feelings about Angel. I like him much better on his own show. On Buffy, I thought he was pretty lame. On Angel, he was much more complex and interesting. Sometimes, I watched and I just thought, "Wow! This guy is some kind of hero!" Other times, I watched, and I just got annoyed. Angel does some things that drive me nuts! Often, I just want to smack him. Spike doesn't irritate me as much. You were probably picking up on that vibe.

My complicated feelings for Angel notwithstanding, I really admired what he did at the end of his show. I really do think Spike was the better man. But when Angel made the choice to give up the prophecy and stop the apocalypse, I think he evened the score. I really, really admired that. He overcame all of his alpha-male and control and pride and emo boy issues and he did the right thing for the right reasons despite the odds. I was in awe. He was awesome! It was a huuuge step for his character.

My turn for apologies. :-) I didn't mean to be all confrontational. I just get my back up when I hear someone say that Angel's choice didn't matter and that it was all about the powers or the prophecy. I think Angel deserves tons of credit for making that choice. More than anything else, I think that's what made him a champion, even if it meant he couldn't be "the Champion."

[Keanoite]

Glad I could clear that up. :-)

I waver on my feelings about Angel. I like him much better on his own show. On Buffy, I thought he was pretty lame. On Angel, he was much more complex and interesting. Sometimes, I watched and I just thought, "Wow! This guy is some kind of hero!" Other times, I watched, and I just got annoyed. Angel does some things that drive me nuts! Often, I just want to smack him. Spike doesn't irritate me as much. You were probably picking up on that vibe.

My complicated feelings for Angel notwithstanding, I really admired what he did at the end of his show. I really do think Spike was the better man. But when Angel made the choice to give up the prophecy and stop the apocalypse, I think he evened the score. I really, really admired that. He overcame all of his alpha-male and control and pride and emo boy issues and he did the right thing for the right reasons despite the odds. I was in awe. He was awesome! It was a huuuge step for his character.

My turn for apologies. :-) I didn't mean to be all confrontational. I just get my back up when I hear someone say that Angel's choice didn't matter and that it was all about the powers or the prophecy. I think Angel deserves tons of credit for making that choice. More than anything else, I think that's what made him a champion, even if it meant he couldn't be "the Champion."

:iamwithst I think we both got our wires crossed along the way. When I spoke about Angel's choice in giving up the phrophecy I in NO way meant for it to imply that it wasn't the HUGEST thing he had ever done. I am nothing but in awe of him for that.

I don't mean this to be antagonistic, in any way, shape or form but I genuinely am interested in why you think Spike is the better man? How did he get there? I'm curious because no matter how much I try I just can't see it.

[Bored of the Dead]

That's a huge chunk of character development for Angel. That makes him a hero by choice, not just because it was thrust upon him all those years ago. To say that he was the "Champion" even though he gave it up kind of detracts from the importance of his decision.

OK, I really disagree with your entire post even more so because you later state you are trying to see it from Angel POV but this is the part I REALLY have issue with.

Angels character development in the 'hero' stakes(no pun) is huge already. We get a great insight into him in his own series and also in season 2 of Buffy.

My biggest issue with this comment though is the two bolded parts.

First of all, When did Angel have the 'champion' thing thrust on him.
He had a choice from the beginning, in fact if you remember at first he 'chose' not to. It is detailed that between the time of his ensouling and coming to Sunnydale he was really conflicted about what he would do because of the way he was treated.

Angel was a champion by choice, he knew this. He occasionally doubted the reason of his choice and the point of it all, but he then made his choice.

Also, he must have believed the Shanshu was him(as did the black thorn) because he signed it away.
A prophecy doesn't get passed on if the original 'owner' doesn't want it, that would be silly. It wouldn't have been Angels IF he could sign it away and Spike then take it.

Angel believed he was the Vampire with a Soul mentioned, as did incidently Lorne who often read Angel while singing.

Angel was under no illusion what signing the prophecy, he wasn't signing it over to anyone, he was signing it away.

He was cancelling it in a truly altruistic way. He knew what it meant, what he was doing. He was sacrificing the one thing he wanted - not being human, his redemption.

[palabravampiress]

OK, I really disagree with your entire post even more so because you later state you are trying to see it from Angel POV but this is the part I REALLY have issue with.

Angels character development in the 'hero' stakes(no pun) is huge already. We get a great insight into him in his own series and also in season 2 of Buffy.

I didn't say we never saw character development - major or minor - from him before. I only said that I thought this was, umm, HUGE. I think that because Angel has some pretty consistent personality traits, flaws even, that he exhibits from Buffy all the way to season 5 of Angel. Even Angelus, in flashbacks, carries these same traits. And in Liam, we can see the foundations of them.

Let's take his control/alpha-male issues for an example. In Liam's relationship with his father, you can see a rebellious streak that is inappropriate for a man his age. Liam is tired of being talked down to and told what to do. He wants to be the alpha male. So he argues with his dad, stays away from home whenever possible, and hangs out with bar maids and tavern patrons in the low part of town (in an environment in which he outranks everyone around him). As Angelus, Liam finally becomes the alpha male. He refers to Dru and even to Darla, his sire, as "his women." He sure as hell makes sure William knows his place. Angelus is the leader. With those other two regency era vampires, those lovers, we see the same pattern. Angelus is condescending and patronizing and obviously top dog. Those who don't line up behind him and submit to his control had better run. Only Darla is ever allowed to "get away" with disobedience. This, he turns into foreplay -- probably as a coping mechanism. Still, their relationship is a constant struggle for dominance. As Angel, he still seeks to be the dominant person in any group or relationship. He consistently makes decisions for people, nevermind what they have to say about it (leaving Buffy, firing Angel Investigations, wiping his friends' memories, making the executive decision to join W&H) and judges people for choices that go against his wishes (all of Buffy's later romantic connections, Cordy for her career choice and for sleeping with Connor -- nervermind his thing with Darla -- Gunn for taking a deal with W&H -- nevermind that he did the same, etc.). In his own mind, Angel = the big kahuna.

So for him to voluntarily step aside and let Spike be the Sanshu guy, even when Angel really truly wanted it for himself, well, that's HUGE. I think that's the biggest chunk of character development - not the only chunk, mind you, but the biggest - that we've ever seen out of him.

My biggest issue with this comment though is the two bolded parts.

First of all, When did Angel have the 'champion' thing thrust on him.
He had a choice from the beginning, in fact if you remember at first he 'chose' not to. It is detailed that between the time of his ensouling and coming to Sunnydale he was really conflicted about what he would do because of the way he was treated.

Angel was a champion by choice, he knew this. He occasionally doubted the reason of his choice and the point of it all, but he then made his choice.

The soul was thrust upon him by the Gypsies. The visions were sent to him through an intermediary by the powers. W&H handed him the keys to the castle. Even the stuff with Connor was, by her own admission, engineered by Jasmine. Angel did the best he could with what he had, yeah, and I'm not arguing that he never made a choice of his own free will, but the big stuff always seemed to be engineered by some high and aloof power determined to use Angel as a tool. And Angel was content to play right along and be destiny boy. It made him feel special. It gave his unlife meaning. It made him "the one," and we've already gone over how important that is to him. But in the end, when he makes his choice, he choices not to be destiny boy. He chooses to do things on his own terms and in his own way. For the first time, he's not a champion because he's the vampire with a soul or because the powers or some other far off and elusive entity says so. He doesn't feel special anymore. He lacks certainty. Heck, he even lacks the prophecy after signing it away. The powers are silent. He's not the only souled vampire. All that stuff is gone. But he still does the right thing. That's what I mean by choice. He's stripped of all of his "specialness," so we know that his decision to be the hero is really and truly his own.

Also, he must have believed the Shanshu was him(as did the black thorn) because he signed it away.
A prophecy doesn't get passed on if the original 'owner' doesn't want it, that would be silly. It wouldn't have been Angels IF he could sign it away and Spike then take it.

Angel believed he was the Vampire with a Soul mentioned, as did incidentally Lorne who often read Angel while singing.

Angel was under no illusion what signing the prophecy, he wasn't signing it over to anyone, he was signing it away.

He was canceling it in a truly altruistic way. He knew what it meant, what he was doing. He was sacrificing the one thing he wanted - not being human, his redemption.

I agree that he was sacrificing the one thing he wanted - not being human, his redemption. I agree that it was truly altruistic. I am in no way belittling Angel's sacrifice. I think it was amazing.

As far as belief in the ownership of the Sanshu goes, I don't think that is proven by the fact that he signed it. He had to sign it to get the black thorn to trust him. And the black thorn had to trust him for him to be able to betray them. So he signed. The black thorn called it "hope." It didn't mean they believed that he was the one. It didn't even mean that he was necessarily the one. It meant that the black thorn believed that he hoped he was the one. As proof of his loyalty, they wanted him to sign away his hope for a better future. He was signing allegiance to them instead of to the prophecy. Does it mean that the black thorn was right and Angel still had that hope? I don't know. Probably at least a little. Possibly even a lot. But he certainly seemed to have some doubts when he talked to Gunn, and hope is not the same as certainty. Everyone seemed pretty sure that Spike threw a monkey wrench in the certainty of the Sanshu prophecy. I'm not sure what anyone in that room believed privately. Publicly, they all believed it was Angel pledging to immortality with them by signing away his last chance of mortality on the other side. It was a show of faith - a false show of faith, as it turned out, but it was a show of faith, nonetheless.

As far as the actual prophecy itself goes, I don't understand your reasoning behind saying that, even though there is another possible interpretation, the prophecy ceases to be applicable once Angel signs it away. The prophecy says the vampire with a soul. The. But now there are two, and the prophecy doesn't specify which one. To me, that sounds like when one of the two souled vampires signs away his right to that prophecy, it defaults to the other, because now there is once again only one applicable interpretation of "the vampire with a soul." It's kind of like a prophecy back-up plan. I mean, let's say there's a prophecy about the "daughter of the Smith." I'm going to pretend that my dad's name is Smith and that we're the only Smiths in the world. Ha! Anyway, I've got a little sister, so there are two daughters of the Smith. Let's say everyone thinks the prophecy belongs to me, especially with the miraculous circumstances of my birth and whatnot. But then lil sis enters the picture. All bets are off. Now, the prophecy could belong to either of us. 50/50 shot. Either of us could do the thing mentioned without contradicting the prophecy. If neither of us do it, the prophecy is contradicted and rendered false. If both of us do it together, the prophecy is contradicted and rendered false. So one of us has to do it. If I step aside, sis get the glory and the prophecy stands. It's not like by stepping aside, I somehow prevent sis from fulfilling the prophecy in my place. There are two possible and equally plausible interpretations, one of which must be borne out in order for the thing to be a prophecy at all. So when one of those interpretations is taken out of the realm of possibility, the other one comes into effect as the only possible and plausible interpretation. Angel signed away his claim to the prophecy, not the existence or truth of the prophecy.


As a side note, thanks for debating with me! Even if we don't come to an agreement, this is fun!

Edit:

:iamwithst I think we both got our wires crossed along the way. When I spoke about Angel's choice in giving up the phrophecy I in NO way meant for it to imply that it wasn't the HUGEST thing he had ever done. I am nothing but in awe of him for that.

I don't mean this to be antagonistic, in any way, shape or form but I genuinely am interested in why you think Spike is the better man? How did he get there? I'm curious because no matter how much I try I just can't see it.

Why do I think Spike's the better man?

Well, I do think Spike's the better man. I'd be lying if I said I didn't. But in this context, I was referring to Angel's suspicion/fear that Spike might be the better man after all. That's far and away more important than my personal opinion on who gets the "better man" title. Angel sure didn't have my opinion in mind when he made his decision. Angel's own doubts were front and center, though.




But I guess I should answer your question. Why do I think Spike is the better man? Mostly for the same reasons he does in these excerpts from "Destiny":

ANGEL There's no voting. It's a prophecy. And the
Shanshu's not about you, Spike.
SPIKE Still can't accept it, can you? Sad, really. All
these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out
you're just a big hunk of nobody cares.
ANGEL I really wished you stayed a ghost.
SPIKE But I didn't, did I? Burned up saving the world,
and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm
the one, you git!


ANGEL Like you're any different.
SPIKE Well, that's just it. I am. And you know it. You
had a soul forced on you—as a curse. Make you suffer for all the
horrible things you'd done. But me... I fought for my soul. Went
through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I
kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do.(jumps
up to the balcony in one smooth motion, landing in front of
Angel) It's my destiny.


Spike picks up the cross that burned Angel before and swings it at
Angel, knocking him across the room. Spike holds the cross in his
hands.
SPIKE You never knew the real me.(hands sizzle on
the cross; he throws it away; walks toward Angel) Too busy trying
to see your own reflection... praying there was someone as disgusting
as you in the world, so you could stand to live with yourself. Take a
long look, hero. I'm nothing like you!


Spike kicks Angel repeatedly in the gut, and the wood fragment Angel
was holding goes flying into the air. Spike kicks Angel to the ground,
grabs the wood fragment from the air, and rears back in a staking motion.
He pauses for a moment, then drives the stake into Angel's body, causing
him to scream in pain. Spike stands, looks down at Angel, revealing that
he drove the stake into Angel's shoulder. Angel lets his face slip back
into human form.


ANGEL (pulls the stake out of his shoulder) Spike,
wait.(Spike picks up the cup) Wait.(Spike rolls his
eyes) That's not a prize you're holding.(Spike looks at
Angel) It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a cross.(Angel
stands) One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes.
Believe me. I know.(Spike puts the cup back on the pedestal and
looks at Angel) So ask yourself: Is this really the destiny that
was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is it that you just
want to take something away from me?
SPIKE (shrugs) Bit of both.(drinks from the
cup)


Even when he was soulless, Spike loved (first Dru, then Buffy and Dawn and even Joyce). Even when he was soulless, he worked with Buffy to stop the apocalypse (the one Angel(us) planned, for that matter). He loved those who treated him like a man. He fought with them and for them. He protected them. Went up against a God for them. Perhaps most meaningfully, he genuinely grieved for them -- even without a soul. And, for them, he wanted to be a man. He fought for his soul for that reason ("To be the kind of man who would never... to be a kind of man"). He gave his life for them, even when Buffy wanted him to get out and save himself, even when she offered him her love at the eleventh hour. I've never seen Angel love -- or respect -- anyone like that. Angel's love and respect was always based on idealism and a person's ability to meet his ideals, not on loving or respecting people as they are, flaws and all. Also, there's not a huge change between soulless Spike and souled Spike. He switches sides, yeah, but the defection is little more than a change of label. He still loves and saves the world and enjoys a good fight or a cutting remark or a good "shag." Not like Angel and Angelus. Angelus is itching for the destruction of the world and couldn't care less about anyone but himself. Unlike Angel, Spike doesn't hide his bad deeds behind an alter ego. He knows he's done wrong, but he also knows he's done right and deserves his redemption.

I guess what it all boils down to is that Spike convinced me. I watched his journey and I bought his argument. Angel? Not so much. I watched his journey, too, but I saw a lot of denial and sticking to old patterns. Even as late as season 4, he was still pulling the Angel/Angelus trick. I think Angel still had some growing to do - and, coincidentally, that he did a lot of that growing when he signed away the prophecy. I definitely think they are on a more equal playing field now that Angel made that move. Like I said, I have loads of respect for that. Loads and loads. Now, let's see if he'll stop being irritating my-way-or-the-highway guy and cut the Angel/Angelus routine (thereby taking full responsibility for his unsouled actions).

Don't get me wrong. I like Angel. I like him on his own show. I like watching his journey. I like that he is different from Spike. There's a lot to like. Honestly, I think Spike should have stayed dead. I feel like his story arc ended in Sunnydale. I think Angel has miles to go, yet. And maybe that's why Spike seems like the better man. He completed the hero's journey. Angel's not quite there, yet.

[Bored of the Dead]

In his own mind, Angel = the big kahuna.

So for him to voluntarily step aside and let Spike be the Sanshu guy, even when Angel really truly wanted it for himself, well, that's HUGE. I think that's the biggest chunk of character development - not the only chunk, mind you, but the biggest - that we've ever seen out of him.



As interesting as your insight is, this is where it falls short.
Firstly, Angel is elevated to the point of leader.
We do often see him making decisions and passing judgement on others but that is because the people around have given him this power.
In season 2 of Angel, he shows that he is willing to be part of the team after the whole Darla thing. Granted at first he has some issue with this, but he works through it and it isn't until Wes takes Connor that Angel changes.

Also, I'm not quite sure I understand your leap here. It's never said to Angel that signing the prophecy at the end will transfer it to Spike, it's not even something on his mind. It seems to me that he actually believes it's him that is talked about and signs it away NOT giving it away.

The soul was thrust upon him by the Gypsies.
This is his second choice.
First choice was in becoming a Vampire.
Second Choice was 'what do I do now I have a soul?'
If you go back you will see that Angel's first acts as being a souled Vampire were to still kill. Granted it was villains and murderers but he still killed. He tried to do good things too but they always bit him in the ass. Angel only really made the choice to be a good guy when he met up with Buffy and Co.
The Soul was thrust upon him, but champion status was not.

The visions were sent to him through an intermediary by the powers.
A very good point but still not in any way something forced on him.
A few times in the show we are told that its all about the choices we make.
I do get what you are saying but the fact is Angel made the choices that lead to the life he had because its what suited him, not what he was pressured into.

I'm at work not so I may finish this later - but I wanted to comment

Like a good debate

[Dlou444]

Also, I'm not quite sure I understand your leap here. It's never said to Angel that signing the prophecy at the end will transfer it to Spike, it's not even something on his mind. It seems to me that he actually believes it's him that is talked about and signs it away NOT giving it away.


I can't speak for palabravampiress exactly, but that is not what I got from what she said.
I thought the theory was that
1.) Angel was confused in the whole "Mountain Dew Cup" episode and WAS questioning whether or not the prophecy was about Spike.
2.) The episode was about "who was the better man" and Spike gave him AMPLE reason to believe it was HIM and not Angel.
and
3.) That by signing away the prophecy that by DEFAULT the title would go to Spike. Not that he was signing AWAY to Spike, necessarily. But, that if it really was an either/or scenario then obviously, if Angel gives it up Spike would get it.

It doesn't have to be in the forefront of his mind, at the time, to realize that if the prophecy is true, and if it is a contest between the two of them that if he signs it away that Spike would get it.

[Mirage]

Angel is the real Champion, IMO.
I don't think Spike getting a soul makes him a Champion since he didn't do that for the greater good but rather to get the girl. Also, Spike almost always had selfish reasons for helping out on BtVS (up until Season 7 of BtVS & Season 5 of AtS that is). Angel has done a far lot more than Spike has. Don't get me wrong, I think Spike is a champion in his own way especially for "Chosen" but the true Champion between the two is Angel.

[palabravampiress]

As interesting as your insight is, this is where it falls short.
Firstly, Angel is elevated to the point of leader.
We do often see him making decisions and passing judgement on others but that is because the people around have given him this power.
In season 2 of Angel, he shows that he is willing to be part of the team after the whole Darla thing. Granted at first he has some issue with this, but he works through it and it isn't until Wes takes Connor that Angel changes.

Because he took a back seat - reluctantly - for part of a season before he went back to his old patterns, you think he changed?

Sure, people are willing to let Angel be their leader. That's not my criticism of Angel. My criticism of Angel is the *way* he leads. When Angel acts in a manner with which everyone disagrees (impregnating Darla), the rest of the gang looks past that. They make Angel's crisis - Ange's child - priority numero uno. But when Wes, the so-called leader, acts - with the best of intentions - in a manner with which Angel disagrees, Angel attempts to murder Wes. Because, as usual, Angel is the most important person in his universe. Even if he can see the logical reasons behind Wesley's decisions, all that matters is that Wes betrayed Angel (and his unspoken authority). When Cordy and Connor act in a manner of which Angel disapproves, he kicks them out of the hotel in the middle of an apocalypse! Angel is a strong leader. He's smart. His heart is in the right place. But he's got a self-centered hypocritical streak a mile wide! I don't think he dropped that in season 2, even though he tried. I think he dropped that when he signed away the prophecy.

Also, I'm not quite sure I understand your leap here. It's never said to Angel that signing the prophecy at the end will transfer it to Spike, it's not even something on his mind. It seems to me that he actually believes it's him that is talked about and signs it away NOT giving it away.


This is his second choice.
First choice was in becoming a Vampire.
Second Choice was 'what do I do now I have a soul?'
If you go back you will see that Angel's first acts as being a souled Vampire were to still kill. Granted it was villains and murderers but he still killed. He tried to do good things too but they always bit him in the ass. Angel only really made the choice to be a good guy when he met up with Buffy and Co.
The Soul was thrust upon him, but champion status was not.


A very good point but still not in any way something forced on him.
A few times in the show we are told that its all about the choices we make.
I do get what you are saying but the fact is Angel made the choices that lead to the life he had because its what suited him, not what he was pressured into.

I'm at work not so I may finish this later - but I wanted to comment

Like a good debate

On the prophecy stuff, I refer to Dlou444, who clarified my point very well. Thanks, Dlou444! That's how I made my leap.

As for the choice stuff, I never said he didn't make choices. In fact, I recognized the fact that he made choices. What I said was:

Angel did the best he could with what he had, yeah, and I'm not arguing that he never made a choice of his own free will, but the big stuff always seemed to be engineered by some high and aloof power determined to use Angel as a tool. And Angel was content to play right along and be destiny boy. It made him feel special. It gave his unlife meaning. It made him "the one," and we've already gone over how important that is to him.

I don't deny the importance of the choices that he made. I just argue that they were facilitated by a higher power. The choice that Angel made at the end of the series was not facilitated by a higher power. In fact, the prophecy of the higher powers had to be forsaken in order for him to make his choice. That's why I argue that this final decision was the most meaningful. I argue that this was when he truly chose to be a hero: when he chose to stand on his own feet.



Angel is the real Champion, IMO.
I don't think Spike getting a soul makes him a Champion since he didn't do that for the greater good but rather to get the girl. Also, Spike almost always had selfish reasons for helping out on BtVS (up until Season 7 of BtVS & Season 5 of AtS that is). Angel has done a far lot more than Spike has. Don't get me wrong, I think Spike is a champion in his own way especially for "Chosen" but the true Champion between the two is Angel.

What do you say to this Angelus business, then? How does Angelus figure into your concept of Angel as a greater champion than Spike? One of the reasons that Spike wins in my mind is because he doesn't blame his actions on an alter ego. Unsouled Spike made progress. Unsouled Spike chose a soul. Unsouled Angel is still can't-wait-for-the-next-apocalypse-guy. That really bothers me. Also, what about his alpha-male/control issues? Those bother me, too. Spike made a great effort to control and change his evil ways. Angel, by contrast, just suppresses them so that they become an alter ego that is constantly in danger of being unleashed.

[alexa]

Holy crap, not reading all that page right now, but a spuffy actually on another board posted this concerning pre-souled Spike, and his actions. Because a lot of them were selfishly motivated.. I don't think it's entirely fair to say he's better then anyone else simply because he fell in love and did everything to win Buffy... it's not the same as doing it for the good of humanity. I don't personally see the issue with looking at every character for what he or she really is, and still saying 'hey i like that guy anyway'.

Interviewer: Are the writers aware that Spike is coming off more sympathetically than Buffy this season?
Steven DeKnight: Yeeeeees. I will go firmly with yeeeees on that one. And you know, we go back and forth on that, 'cause yeah, she mistreated him, but as much as he was being a nice guy sometimes, he was not such a nice guy other times. I mean, in "Dead Things", they say, "Oh, well, you know, he was going to stop her from going to the police when it wasn't really her!" -- he didn't know it wasn't really her. And he wasn't stopping her because he wanted to save her -- he wanted to save her for himself.
Interviewer: It's a very possessive love.
Steven DeKnight: It is a very possessive love.
Interviewer: It doesn't make it any less real, it's real to him.
Steven DeKnight: And does he do great heroic things for her? Yes. But, you know, he's doing it for her.
Interviewer: Right, and that's the big question, how good of a person is he if he's only doing things for his own personal gain?
Steven DeKnight: Right. And back in 13 in "Dead Things", in the infamous balcony scene, you really also see he is trying to control her, he's trying to separate her from her friends, so as much as you see the puppy-dog look, he's also not playing fair.

[Mirage]

Unsouled Spike made progress. Unsouled Spike chose a soul. Unsouled Angel is still can't-wait-for-the-next-apocalypse-guy.

Unsouled Spike also had a chip shoved in his head to tame him otherwise he'd still be trying to kill Buffy and her friends. Before the chip, before he fell for Buffy, innocents to him were nothing more than "happy meals with legs". We have no way of knowing if Angelus would have made progress had he have gotten a chip in his head.

[Dlou444]

Spike worked with Buffy without the chip. Still, maybe for "selfish" reasons, but he did it. And that stupid chip doesn't stop him from moving away or getting a group of other demons to kill for him and he could "run the roost". He didn't torture Angel himself, he got someone else to do it. He's very good at delegating authority. He could do it when Drusilla came back, she killed, he drank, and felt bad about it.

I'm having a hard time seeing being selfish as the same as what Angelus does. I would have talked Buffy out of turning herself in too. If only on the concept that SPIKE brought up that she's saved thousands of other lives and it was an "accident" that the police would never understand.
Sure, maybe he didn't want her taken away from her, but there was a logic in it too, and far less "selfish" on a bigger scale than say, Angel firing his team so he could obsess over Darla or trying to kill Wes when he TRIED to do what was right. Spike uses the same logic I would have used to try and keep Buffy from turning herself in and I'm not in love with her. And then he let her beat the crap out of him, which is hardly all that selfish.

Besides, my 5 year old is "selfish" and SHE uses the puppy-dog look to try and get her way. But, she's hardly Angelus.

There's a pretty big leap from selfish to "I think for jollies I'll kill and torture everyone who's been my friend for years."

And since he SAYS he's going to get the soul to keep himself from HURTING Buffy, when he could have just gone away that says something too. Sure, was there a chance that she'd want to get married and live to an old age with him with a house full of kittens? I guess. And that could have been a motivator. But, he WENT to the house to apologize to her the night of the rape scene. Not very selfish. He was mortified by what he had done. Not too selfish. And found a way to "fix" the problem that wasn't, I'll kill her, I'll kill myself, I'll move to Cabo and find vampires to work for me. It was I WILL BE A BETTER MAN! And in the end, when he GOT the soul, he wasn't all over her anymore. Instead, he gave her pep talks and saved the world.

Is there really an EVIL reason for wanting to be a better person...or undead person?

[Angel's vision]

One of the reasons that Spike wins in my mind is because he doesn't blame his actions on an alter ego. Unsouled Spike made progress. Unsouled Spike chose a soul. Unsouled Angel is still can't-wait-for-the-next-apocalypse-guy. That really bothers me. Also, what about his alpha-male/control issues? Those bother me, too. Spike made a great effort to control and change his evil ways. Angel, by contrast, just suppresses them so that they become an alter ego that is constantly in danger of being unleashed.

Your forgetting Angel had a curse put on him in the form of his soul, so no alter ego there to be supressed. Angelus isn't Angel. Angel had the opportunity to control (Angelus) and change his evil ways just as much as Spike did.
On another note;
The way I saw Angel handing over authority to Wes was a way to bring back the trust he broke and he was willing to do that, because erning the trust back was important to him. Took alot of pride to that.

Both Spike and Angel are champions in their own right, no Vamp is better than the other, Spike is just setting out on the Hero journey that Angel took and will learn things that Angel learnt too. I just don't think he at the same "level" that Angel reached yet. He has a lot of growing to do.

[Dlou444]

I'm not really debating, I just don't understand this statement
Your forgetting Angel had a curse put on him in the form of his soul, so no alter ego there to be supressed. Angelus isn't Angel. Angel had the opportunity to control (Angelus) and change his evil ways just as much as Spike did.

The curse was the soul no other cursy loopholes other than the perfect happiness thing. It's not like he got a soul and something else. Therefore, Angelus IS Angel...just without the soul.
The key here is the souless Spike's evil ways just aren't quite as evil as Angelus's evil ways.

[palabravampiress]

I'm not really debating, I just don't understand this statement


The curse was the soul no other cursy loopholes other than the perfect happiness thing. It's not like he got a soul and something else. Therefore, Angelus IS Angel...just without the soul.
The key here is the souless Spike's evil ways just aren't quite as evil as Angelus's evil ways.

Yeah. I don't get it, either. How is Angel not Angelus? How does the Gypsy curse manage that?

I also agree about Angelus winning in the Evilness sweepstakes. I mean, Angelus is wanna-destroy-the-world guy. Spike may think of people as happy meals with legs, but he likes the happy meals, he likes what their legs can do in football, he likes... human society. He works with Buffy to save it -- because he likes it. Even to pre-chipped Spike, apocalypse = bad. Isn't it the same for Buffy and company? There's a measure of goodness there that other demons seem to lack. Most other demons don't just want to eat people because, hey, people are food. They want to destroy humanity.

[Keanoite]

Yeah. I don't get it, either. How is Angel not Angelus? How does the Gypsy curse manage that?

I also agree about Angelus winning in the Evilness sweepstakes. I mean, Angelus is wanna-destroy-the-world guy. Spike may think of people as happy meals with legs, but he likes the happy meals, he likes what their legs can do in football, he likes... human society. He works with Buffy to save it -- because he likes it. Even to pre-chipped Spike, apocalypse = bad. Isn't it the same for Buffy and company? There's a measure of goodness there that other demons seem to lack. Most other demons don't just want to eat people because, hey, people are food. They want to destroy humanity.

Why did Angeles suddenly want to destroy the world? I mean he had been around 100 years before he got cursed and he never tried before that. Why now? or well then.

[Dlou444]

Well, there IS Clem. He's a nice enough guy!

[palabravampiress]

Why did Angeles suddenly want to destroy the world? I mean he had been around 100 years before he got cursed and he never tried before that. Why now? or well then.

No idea.

But he tried to do it when Angelus got lose from his cage and started working for Jasmine and the beasty, too.

Good point. I have no idea why he didn't try to destroy the world before.


Well, there IS Clem. He's a nice enough guy!

True. Clem is a nice guy. Or, at least, he seems to be.


Hmm... this all makes me wonder what's up with those apocalypse types. What do they get out of destroying humanity? Now I'm all stumped.

Of course, doesn't Buffy lore say that demons ruled the world until humans came along and took it over? Maybe they just want their world back. That seems "evil" from a human POV, sure, but from a demon POV, it's actually quite noble... kicking out the occupying power in order to reclaim the land for the natives. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. From the not-quite-assimilated demons' perspective, humans are icky monkey barbarian invaders.

Oh drat. Now I don't know who's side I'm on.

[Dlou444]

Angelus didn't like the beasty guy. He got Faith to help him kill him. He didn't go with him in the "old times" and help him kill everyone and he didn't help him the 2nd time either. He didn't seem to like Evil Cordy voice in his head either.

I never thought he wanted to end the world. Just go on a nice vacation with lots of dinners roaming about for him to feed on for free. Actually, I wouldn't mind that vacation either. But, I'd rather have it be actual food laying about than have to drink people's blood.

[Keanoite]

No idea.

But he tried to do it when Angelus got lose from his cage and started working for Jasmine and the beasty, too.

Good point. I have no idea why he didn't try to destroy the world before.




True. Clem is a nice guy. Or, at least, he seems to be.


Hmm... this all makes me wonder what's up with those apocalypse types. What do they get out of destroying humanity? Now I'm all stumped.

Of course, doesn't Buffy lore say that demons ruled the world until humans came along and took it over? Maybe they just want their world back. That seems "evil" from a human POV, sure, but from a demon POV, it's actually quite noble... kicking out the occupying power in order to reclaim the land for the natives. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. From the not-quite-assimilated demons' perspective, humans are icky monkey barbarian invaders.

Oh drat. Now I don't know who's side I'm on.

But is Hell is just that, Hell!! it wouldn't be their original world. I think we have stumped ourselves.

[Angel's vision]

Yeah. I don't get it, either. How is Angel not Angelus? How does the Gypsy curse manage that?


Demon inhabits human body has their memories etc, gypsy curse gives soul to that body ie the original host, they share the same brain, so have the same memories.

The curse keeps Angelus caged and unable to do anything inside the body so the soul is the domineering entity.

I see them as two seperate entities.

[Keanoite]

Ok I just saw Your Welcome for the first time in about two years and I'm kinda confused why we are still debating this... Angel is THE Champion!!! Spike himself pretty much says it!! Lindsay put all the ideas of having a destiny in Spikes head, none of it was true! before he goes to the pub to drown his sorrows Spike says 'I've been prancing around thinkin I had a destiny'...Cordy was brought back by the powers to set the CHAMPION i.e. ANGEL on track!

or did I COMPLETELY misinterpret it??

[palabravampiress]

Ok I just saw Your Welcome for the first time in about two years and I'm kinda confused why we are still debating this... Angel is THE Champion!!! Spike himself pretty much says it!! Lindsay put all the ideas of having a destiny in Spikes head, none of it was true! before he goes to the pub to drown his sorrows Spike says 'I've been prancing around thinkin I had a destiny'...Cordy was brought back by the powers to set the CHAMPION i.e. ANGEL on track!

or did I COMPLETELY misinterpret it??

We were debating it because he signed the Sanshu away when he joined the black thorn.

Then I went and confused myself and haven't been able to de-confuse myself yet! lol.

[Keanoite]

We were debating it because he signed the Sanshu away when he joined the black thorn.

Then I went and confused myself and haven't been able to de-confuse myself yet! lol.

Oh Ok...I still think it's Angel. He signed away HIS destiny, he can't just give it to someone else. It said THE vampire with a soul not A vampire with a soul!!

It's not like with Slayers, one falls another takes over (or well it used to be!). Spike is only starting out on his journey and also its SPIKE! He loves being a vampire and he said he doesn't really want redemption or forgiveness, just to be a better man.

we are never going to figure this out!!!

[palabravampiress]

Oh Ok...I still think it's Angel. He signed away HIS destiny, he can't just give it to someone else. It said THE vampire with a soul not A vampire with a soul!!

It's not like with Slayers, one falls another takes over (or well it used to be!). Spike is only starting out on his journey and also its SPIKE! He loves being a vampire and he said he doesn't really want redemption or forgiveness, just to be a better man.

we are never going to figure this out!!!

Well, I'm pretty clear on how I interpret the prophecy. With two souled vamps running around and no one specifically named in the prophecy, it just makes sense to me to assume that when one signs away the prophecy, the other gets it by default. That part doesn't confuse me anymore. It just makes sense to me that they're both champions, but that Spike is Sanshu boy by default.

What confuses me is Angelus. We got talking about which vamp is the better man, which led us to compare the pre-soul (and, in the case of Spike, even pre-chip) actions of both characters. I thought Spike was the better guy because, hey, Angelus wanted to destroy humanity by sucking the world into Hell. I kind of tak offense to that. But then I looked at it from the demons' perspective. While I still don't understand what's so great about Hell, I do see a certain nobility in the demon's urge to reclaim the Earth from the icky monkey barbarians. So now, for me, it becomes a question of sides. Pre-soul/chip Spike stank of humanity, which is great if you're a human and want humans to rule the world. Spike's on the human side. But the demons have a valid point with the whole they were there first thing, and Angelus would make a good champion for them. I mean, he died and went to Hell trying to restore the demon world. So now I don't know who's side I'm on: the humans' side or the demons' side. From the demons' perspective, Spike is a sorry sort of champion. Angelus fares better, but he has that soul curse in the way.

[Keanoite]

Well, I'm pretty clear on how I interpret the prophecy. With two souled vamps running around and no one specifically named in the prophecy, it just makes sense to me to assume that when one signs away the prophecy, the other gets it by default. That part doesn't confuse me anymore. It just makes sense to me that they're both champions, but that Spike is Sanshu boy by default.

What confuses me is Angelus. We got talking about which vamp is the better man, which led us to compare the pre-soul (and, in the case of Spike, even pre-chip) actions of both characters. I thought Spike was the better guy because, hey, Angelus wanted to destroy humanity by sucking the world into Hell. I kind of tak offense to that. But then I looked at it from the demons' perspective. While I still don't understand what's so great about Hell, I do see a certain nobility in the demon's urge to reclaim the Earth from the icky monkey barbarians. So now, for me, it becomes a question of sides. Pre-soul/chip Spike stank of humanity, which is great if you're a human and want humans to rule the world. Spike's on the human side. But the demons have a valid point with the whole they were there first thing, and Angelus would make a good champion for them. I mean, he died and went to Hell trying to restore the demon world. So now I don't know who's side I'm on: the humans' side or the demons' side. From the demons' perspective, Spike is a sorry sort of champion. Angelus fares better, but he has that soul curse in the way.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the prophecy, I really don't believe you can give your destiny to anyone and I very much belive that Shanshu was destined for Angel.

On Angelus vs. Spike (pre-chip and soul), I'm slightly confused and seem to have more questions than answers. I definitely see where your coming from with the whole freedom-fighter/terrorist thing. Up untill Sunnydale when Angeles was around he lived the high-life and seemed to very much enjoy the human world. What changed? I don't think he wanted to restore demon control, he enjoyed the pain he inflicted on humans too much, the art in the kill and all that. Angeles liked to be the boss, that wouldn't have happened in hell and from what we learned from spike it seem that it was an enjoyable place even for a demon.

[Dlou444]

I'm debating because it's fun.

Although, it seems we need to start at the beginning here.....

First of all, we have to sit back and realize that Angel had his own show and Spike, sadly, hasn't....yet.
Which kind of tips the scales in Angel's favor, just because we've had more time to gather the information about him.
Personally, I like to look at not having a soul like a drug addiction. Drug addicts do some TERRIBLE things that the person NEVER would do sober. On the other hand, it IS them, they just don't so much care at the time they are doing these awful things. I wouldn't necessarily hold them "responsible". I don't think Angel killed Jennie, but on the other hand, I can't just act like someone else entirely did it.
We know that Angelus is bottom of the barrel when it comes to vampires that DON'T have a soul. (Well, at least of the vampires we KNOW very much about.) That's just a fact. Chip or not, Spike was much more likeable without his soul than Angel is. He had some sense of rhyme or reason....selfish or not.
Heck, HARMONY is nicer without a soul....maybe even nicer than she was when she was human.

So, we know that it IS possible to not be a evil lunatic without a soul. Maybe evil, Spike was evil. And Dru was a lunatic. But, EVIL LUNATIC x 10 is what Angelus is.

It may not be fair to judge the guy based on when he's soulless, but it's hard to label him "Head Champion" knowing if he loses that soul again, he's going to kill us all and wouldn't do a THING to get that soul back. And Spike would. We know that because he opted for his in the beginning. I don't fault Angel for having his soul thrust on him. He still did good things with it. But, it's not the same as knowing that if Spike loses his soul, we're not all doomed and he'll do what he can to get it back.

The PTB may have "chosen" Angel, but that doesn't carry a lot of weight with me either. Because the PTB can't see the future so well. Or they would have known about the monster that makes Angel human or that he'd revoke it. Or that Doyle was gonna kill himself and give Cordy the visions and that could make her head explode and then no visions. In an very nice effort to give us good TV, the powers have proven that either they can't see the future or that they can't see it well, or that our choices change the future....or maybe that they just kind of stand around in hard to find places acting like poop-heads.
But, the simple fact that they gave Angel the visiony people and says he is a Champion doesn't mean too much to me as far as whether or not he IS the "Champion". Because Spike wasn't an option at that time.
Or, we can go with the more complex option which is the PTB CAN see the future and like to aid in character development. The knew Doyle was gonna die, they knew he'd save Angel, they knew he'd give Cordy the visions and that she'd have to fight and make choices to save herself and then die. They could have known the whole storyline from the premiere. And chose Angel. On the other hand, assuming what's happened to the rest of Angel's "Crew" in their battle to be better, then we really don't KNOW that they really "CHOSE" Angel for squat. That would mean they chose Doyle and Cordy and chose Cordy to save Fred and she died too. For all we know, they "chose" Angel and made him feel important only to have him help Spike (or Harmony) take over when Angel got dusted to save the world and be "THE CHAMPION".

Basically, I don't have a lot of faith in the PTB or what they say. Because either way, it's flawed.

Then we have the Shanshu. Sure, Spike was gloomy about Lindsay messing with his head. But, Angel questioned it a zillion times too. Both of them have questioned it and that doesn't mean much.
WR&H didn't even seem to know EXACTLY what it meant.
Really we have no way of knowing if it's a "planted" prophecy like the one with Conner, or if it's really a one time deal, if it CAN be signed away (how can you sign away a prophecy anyway?), or if it couldn't be any vampire with a soul in any apocalypse.
We ASSUME that we know, but we really don't.

Which does kind of bring us back to the whole Angel is a poop without his soul. And kind of a Alpha Male MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY type guy. Who makes decisions for the people he claims to love and doesn't deal well with authority. Which, once again, Harmony has him beat and she doesn't have a soul.
Spike has NO trouble taking direction. In fact, he lives most of his life getting put down for just about everything he does. I'm not saying that makes him a "Champion", but I wouldn't want a Champion that won't listen to me, marches off, fires me and just might try to kill me or wipe my memory clear if things don't go the way he wants.

Angel DOES have his good qualities. He did appear to be a good Dad and he loved Cordy very much. And, he makes me laugh.

But, Spike did "bounce back" easier from the whole soul/guilt thing. Maybe because he chose the soul but maybe because he didn't have as much to feel bad for.
I guess I tend to look at it like a road race. It's like someone tied Angel up and threw him in a car and sure, he's still going and doing well, but he tends to take detours and occasionally tries to leap out of the car and let the car explode into a crowd of people.
Spike got in the car himself and chose to drive it. He takes less detours and never plots to kill the fans along the way. (At least so far.) Me? I'm up in the chopper doing the Race Report for CNN. And although Angel may have started the race 100 years or so before Spike, with all these detours and trying to leap out...Spike's right up there with him. And with 100 years head start and Angel still being so slow to catch on....
I gotta give Spike the "Champion Title" if only for his time management skills.

[Keanoite]

I'm debating because it's fun.

Although, it seems we need to start at the beginning here.....

First of all, we have to sit back and realize that Angel had his own show and Spike, sadly, hasn't....yet.
Which kind of tips the scales in Angel's favor, just because we've had more time to gather the information about him.
Personally, I like to look at not having a soul like a drug addiction. Drug addicts do some TERRIBLE things that the person NEVER would do sober. On the other hand, it IS them, they just don't so much care at the time they are doing these awful things. I wouldn't necessarily hold them "responsible". I don't think Angel killed Jennie, but on the other hand, I can't just act like someone else entirely did it.
We know that Angelus is bottom of the barrel when it comes to vampires that DON'T have a soul. (Well, at least of the vampires we KNOW very much about.) That's just a fact. Chip or not, Spike was much more likeable without his soul than Angel is. He had some sense of rhyme or reason....selfish or not.
Heck, HARMONY is nicer without a soul....maybe even nicer than she was when she was human.

So, we know that it IS possible to not be a evil lunatic without a soul. Maybe evil, Spike was evil. And Dru was a lunatic. But, EVIL LUNATIC x 10 is what Angelus is.

It may not be fair to judge the guy based on when he's soulless, but it's hard to label him "Head Champion" knowing if he loses that soul again, he's going to kill us all and wouldn't do a THING to get that soul back. And Spike would. We know that because he opted for his in the beginning. I don't fault Angel for having his soul thrust on him. He still did good things with it. But, it's not the same as knowing that if Spike loses his soul, we're not all doomed and he'll do what he can to get it back.

The PTB may have "chosen" Angel, but that doesn't carry a lot of weight with me either. Because the PTB can't see the future so well. Or they would have known about the monster that makes Angel human or that he'd revoke it. Or that Doyle was gonna kill himself and give Cordy the visions and that could make her head explode and then no visions. In an very nice effort to give us good TV, the powers have proven that either they can't see the future or that they can't see it well, or that our choices change the future....or maybe that they just kind of stand around in hard to find places acting like poop-heads.
But, the simple fact that they gave Angel the visiony people and says he is a Champion doesn't mean too much to me as far as whether or not he IS the "Champion". Because Spike wasn't an option at that time.
Or, we can go with the more complex option which is the PTB CAN see the future and like to aid in character development. The knew Doyle was gonna die, they knew he'd save Angel, they knew he'd give Cordy the visions and that she'd have to fight and make choices to save herself and then die. They could have known the whole storyline from the premiere. And chose Angel. On the other hand, assuming what's happened to the rest of Angel's "Crew" in their battle to be better, then we really don't KNOW that they really "CHOSE" Angel for squat. That would mean they chose Doyle and Cordy and chose Cordy to save Fred and she died too. For all we know, they "chose" Angel and made him feel important only to have him help Spike (or Harmony) take over when Angel got dusted to save the world and be "THE CHAMPION".

Basically, I don't have a lot of faith in the PTB or what they say. Because either way, it's flawed.

Then we have the Shanshu. Sure, Spike was gloomy about Lindsay messing with his head. But, Angel questioned it a zillion times too. Both of them have questioned it and that doesn't mean much.
WR&H didn't even seem to know EXACTLY what it meant.
Really we have no way of knowing if it's a "planted" prophecy like the one with Conner, or if it's really a one time deal, if it CAN be signed away (how can you sign away a prophecy anyway?), or if it couldn't be any vampire with a soul in any apocalypse.
We ASSUME that we know, but we really don't.

Which does kind of bring us back to the whole Angel is a poop without his soul. And kind of a Alpha Male MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY type guy. Who makes decisions for the people he claims to love and doesn't deal well with authority. Which, once again, Harmony has him beat and she doesn't have a soul.
Spike has NO trouble taking direction. In fact, he lives most of his life getting put down for just about everything he does. I'm not saying that makes him a "Champion", but I wouldn't want a Champion that won't listen to me, marches off, fires me and just might try to kill me or wipe my memory clear if things don't go the way he wants.

Angel DOES have his good qualities. He did appear to be a good Dad and he loved Cordy very much. And, he makes me laugh.

But, Spike did "bounce back" easier from the whole soul/guilt thing. Maybe because he chose the soul but maybe because he didn't have as much to feel bad for.
I guess I tend to look at it like a road race. It's like someone tied Angel up and threw him in a car and sure, he's still going and doing well, but he tends to take detours and occasionally tries to leap out of the car and let the car explode into a crowd of people.
Spike got in the car himself and chose to drive it. He takes less detours and never plots to kill the fans along the way. (At least so far.) Me? I'm up in the chopper doing the Race Report for CNN. And although Angel may have started the race 100 years or so before Spike, with all these detours and trying to leap out...Spike's right up there with him. And with 100 years head start and Angel still being so slow to catch on....
I gotta give Spike the "Champion Title" if only for his time management skills.


What you said about the powers really doesn't make any sense. Just because they didn't stop bad things from happeneing doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing or that those things weren't supposed to happen? Like Spike says 'Life isn't bliss, life is just this...' Doyle was SUPPOSED to die on that boat! It was his DESTINY, he redeemed himself after what he did when he was younger. Cordy was DESTINED to work and help Angel, even when she had the chance to choose another life she still found her way back to Angel regardless. Death was Buffy's gift, she was supposed to die that day. I'm not saying the powers are flawless cuz God knows they are not but they deserve more credit than you gave them.

The argument about Angel being the Alpha male and not taking orders. Well I have disagree with all of that! The whole time Angel was with Buffy he took orders from her! because she was THE warrior, the head of the group. The scoobies and Fang Gang are like mini armies, they REQUIRE a leader, it doesn't work without one. I refer back to Buffys speech in 'Selfless'
It is always different! It's always complicated. And at some point, someone has to draw the line, and that is always going to be me. You get down on me for cutting myself off, but in the end the slayer is always cut off. There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply. There's only me. I am the law.

In L.A. Angel is the slayer, the hard decisions are ALWAYS left to him! He has to be able make those choices that the others can't. To me THAT makes him more of a CHAMPION then being able to take direction. Cuz at the end of the day it will be the CHAMPION making the tough choices, he won't be delegating. It's not how it works, there are Generals (Angel and Buffy) and then there are soldiers (everyone else).

As for Spike bouncing back from the guilt. It's very possible that he doesn't have as much to feel bad about but really numbers shouldn't matter, he still killed and tortured and God knows what else! I mean his name is SPIKE!! The scale is not on his side. I think he doesn't feel so bad becuase he liked being a vampire, a hell of a lot more than he like William. I put to ya this way, If Angel could take back everything he did as Angelus I thik he would but I don't think Spike would.

For both Angel and Spike their redemption started with a girl.Buffy. She showed them what it was to be brave, to fight. Angel took what he learned and ran with it. He put into practice and took iniative, Angel went to save the souls of the helpless and his too. Spike just tried to save his own. Angel was the leader, THE CHAMPION, Spike fell in behind of him, Spike was a soldier.

[Dlou444]

Now wait a minute...There is a difference between DESTINY and the POWERS knowing anything at all....or everything.

I'm not saying it WASN'T Doyle's destiny to die or Cordy's destiny to do what she did. I'm saying, that the PTB can't have it both ways. Either they DO know everything or the DON'T.
If they don't know everything, then we can't just say, "Well they told Angel he was a Champion, so he is" because they don't know everything. And we don't KNOW that they know everything. In fact, we have to assume they DON'T know everything or they'd have found some vision people who could handle it better. Doyle was part demon but the visions still killed his head. And I doubt they'd have just gone and let the whole Jasmine storyline just happen without some warning. That would be a BAD thing since she was against them.
If we assume that they DO know everything, then they gave Doyle "the gift" of these visions knowing he was going to do what he did and then they gave Cordy the "gift" of the visions, knowing she wasn't going to end up much better. They sent Cordy the vision about Fred knowing she'd find her and she'd end up pretty awful too. SO, they have a pattern of bestowing "gifts" on people that end up going bad. Therefore, them simply calling Angel a Champion (and I don't remember them ever saying he was THE CHAMPION) then not only does it maybe not mean he's THE CHAMPION, but it could just fit into their pattern of throwing around big "awards" that don't amount to much. Perhaps they just bestowed that honor on him like they bestowed the visions on Cordy, knowing she'd be taken over by a demon and try to end the world. Which doesn't so much make the honors they give out all that fabulous if they just might end in you aiding to end the world.

The whole time Angel was with Buffy, Angel may have listened to her when she said, "You go here and I'll go over there" but when she'd try to talk about things that REALLY mattered to her, he'd just make executive decisions and make up her mind for her. Like how about.....I'm leaving for LA?
It's not that ALL the time he's a jerk. It's that when it MATTERS he's a jerk. All up to about the Black Thorn thing.
My DEAREST FRIENDS that Darla's been stalking me for months in my sleep and made me crazy? I think I'll fire them and go a bit more nutty chasing them down on my own and break my friend's hearts. Because they don't like what I'm doing so I'll take my toys and go elsewhere!
Okay, I'll come back now.
Oh, my DEAREST FRIEND found out that I might be drinking my son's blood and there is a prophecy that I will kill him, so he tried to save my baby....I think I'll try and murder him and throw him out into the world with nothing...even though he's already been almost killed and feels horrible..
Or, the WOMAN I LOVE has had a horribly hard time, came back from being a higher power, doesn't remember much, could be clinically depressed and during an Apocalypse turns to the one person she trusts for a roll in the hay and even though she's NEVER done anything like this before and there could be something up, I think I'll just shun her and treat her like a whore.
Or leaving all guys in the house to get killed by Darla and Dru...that was a dumb one too.
It's THOSE kind of decisions that make him look Alpha Male My Way Or The Highway type person. Not when he tells someone to "cover the back" before they burst in and kill the bad guy or when he makes a plan to save the day. Sure, he's all for being a team player...just as long as everyone agrees with him.

[Angel's vision]

Quoted from another forum:
I was always under the impression that Joss wasn't really being serious when he said that. It in no way reflected what he actually had planned for season six and the aftermath of the battle. I think that if Spike were to get the shanshu, it would be because Angel gives the reward up so that he can continue to help people (it seems like a very Angelesque thing for him to do).

It wouldn't make any sense for Spike to be the one in the prophecy. If he was, the Senior Partners and the Powers wouldn't have been so interested in Angel for all those years. Moreover, it was Angel who developed the plan to take out the Circle of the Black Thorn, one of the major players in W&H's Apocalypse. In Season 2, Nathan and Holland all but confirm that Angel is destined to be the major player the Apocalypse. Alternatively, the Powers and the Partners have had absolutely no contact with Spike - it was Lindsey that sent the amulet to LA.

Besides, the show IS called ANGEL - one of the major reasons that Spike came on in Season 5 was to help appease the WB. It would be a little ridiculous to follow the journey of a specific character for many years only to find out that his journey was a sham. I believe that Angel is the champion of the Powers destined to prevent the Apocalypse. Although, like I said above, that doesn't have to mean that he is the one to become human in the end. The fact that his journey is ultimately one for forgiveness and atonement may mean that he needs to give up the reward, even after preventing the Apocalypse.

Sums up my opinion^

I know what you mean Dlou444 in regards to the PTB, because lets face it they did nothing to prevent Cordy from being taken over and when they did "Step in" it was Darla's "ghost" which was hardly an approprete thing to do concidering Conner's state of mind!

They just interfere when it suits them and their actions are ambiguous.
As for your remark about Angel leaving LA as making desicions for Buffy he HAD to because they couldn't consummate their rel no more and sticking around was like being reminded of what they couldn't have, what was more crueller being there but no more sex just kissing that could lead him giving into his feelings eventually and turning evil or going away so that Buffy was safer away from that threat?

Your forgetting that dream he had of them "Getting Married" and Joyce herself said her concerns too which is what lead up to his decision.

You could critsise his decision to reverse his humanity so Buffy could live in "I will remember you" instead. Even though he did have Noble intenions...

[palabravampiress]

Quoted from another forum:


Sums up my opinion^

I know what you mean Dlou444 in regards to the PTB, because lets face it they did nothing to prevent Cordy from being taken over and when they did "Step in" it was Darla's "ghost" which was hardly an approprete thing to do concidering Conner's state of mind!

They just interfere when it suits them and their actions are ambiguous.
As for your remark about Angel leaving LA as making desicions for Buffy he HAD to because they couldn't consummate their rel no more and sticking around was like being reminded of what they couldn't have, what was more crueller being there but no more sex just kissing that could lead him giving into his feelings eventually and turning evil or going away so that Buffy was safer away from that threat?

Your forgetting that dream he had of them "Getting Married" and Joyce herself said her concerns too which is what lead up to his decision.

You could critsise his decision to reverse his humanity so Buffy could live in "I will remember you" instead. Even though he did have Noble intenions...

I'm going to defend Dlou444, here. The fact that Angel's intentions may be noble when he makes his really crappy executive decisions does not change the fact that he makes them or the effects that those decisions have on the people around him. Angel's a hothead. When things get tough, he displays the emotional maturity of a kindergardener.

I don't understand your POV on the Buffy thing. He can't have sex, so the relationship is doomed? Does he think they're the only couple in the world to have ever dealt with a situation - say perhaps an STD - that made sex dangerous? Other things, like impotence or paralysis, sometimes make sex impossible. A visit to a doctor will provide a pamphlet on alternate behaviors. I know that sounds wacky, but I'm actually serious. There are couples in the world who face similar situations every day. Love trumps sex. I'm not saying it would have been easy for them. Not at all. But I am saying that there is a more mature solution to this problem. But did he try to find a solution? Nope. His solution was to show zero respect for his partner's decisions and to make the executive decision - over her protests - to leave. He added insult to injury, then, when he insisted that he knew what she needed and deserved out of life even better than she knew. He blamed it on her. But what I saw was a woman who was willing to deal with the situation and a man who ran away. Any "noble intentions" he may have had for Buffy in this scenario, I saw as an attempt at rationalization on his part.

His intentions in "I Will Remember You" were a little better, yes, because I do believe he wanted to save people. But you have the same basic thing. Angel could stay home. He could leave the slaying to the slayer. But his pride couldn't handle that. He went out, anyway. He got in the way. He wouldn't stay out of it, which meant that Buffy would be distracted trying to look out for him, which put her in danger -- at least that was how it looked to Angel. Nevermind the fact that normal humans fight alongside Buffy and Angel every day. Angel didn't give himself time to adjust to his new limitations and make due with technique (like Gunn) or technology (like Wes). Instead, he made his decision so that he could be out in the thick of things his old accustomed way -- once again without consulting his partner or respecting her right to make her own choices in life.

This is a pattern with Angel. It's not that he makes executive decisions that bothers me. It's the way he does it. He has no respect for the people around him. When Buffy makes executive decisions, it's about battle and it's usually after she's taken time to consider and listen to others' opinions. When Angel does it, it's about the lives and livelihoods of those around him and it's a snap decision based on what works for him in that moment.

This is a problem that I have with Angel. This is why I wouldn't pick him as THE champion. He's THE champion who has a nasty pattern of kicking the rest of us out on our arses without a moment's notice or consideration.

[palabravampiress]

GATEGOD agrees: Yea, but his whole goal throughout the story is one of redemption and helping others. Even if he does act like a "hothead" every now and then. He still tries to help people. But idk if he's The Champion either

I think he is a champion. Just not the Sanshu guy. Angel does try to help people. I like him for that. There's a lot to like about Angel. His penchant for helping people and his quest for redemption are great. Also, I like his sense of humor. I like Angel as a hero. I just don't like him as a friend or as a romantic partner. I really enjoyed watching his development.

He just has these issues that really bug me. He never really tries to work on them. He never even seems to notice. That part drives me crazy.

Even so, I'd gladly accept him as THE champion if Joss hadn't provided us with an alternative. But since Joss did provide us with an alternative and then said there can be only one Sanshu boy, all of these little things that I dislike about Angel kind of stack up against him for me. Most of what I disliked about Spike, he worked to change. Most of what I disliked about Angel, he never even noticed. When it comes down to it, I trust Spike to be annoying and occasionally to engage in petty crime or some other sort of dysfunction, but to sacrifice his needs or even his life for the benefit of those he loves (or even likes or just doesn't quite hate) when the time is right. I trust Angel to fight the good fight every night, but to cast aside those most dear to him when the going gets tough, which is roughly once a year. Both of our vamp boys are heroes. But if only one can bear the cross and get the prize, I'm betting it's going to be Spike. He'll want it more and pursue it harder and sacrifice whatever must be sacrificed to get it. Angel will stop to mope and betray his friends and brood over the consequences. He said it himself. He sees it as a burden. Part of him doesn't want it. I want my champion to have some conviction about the whole champ thing.

[Angel's vision]

If Angel were to have sex with Buffy or stick around and have his feelings grow stronger there would be a Danger that he would experience that true happiness with Buffy, he was scared that it would happen again and he would turn evil, and even being with someone can make you happy doesn't need sex.

I think that's what the writters were implying they stood no chance given the threat so he could get his own series, hense the leaving.
I wasn't trying to attack her opinion just state what I observed from watching both. But I do wonder why he never did anything about his curse, like remove the clause so he wouldn't loose his soul.

The writers also had Angel "out the game" as the Oricles said when he was human, in other words he wasn't thier champion if he were human, and someone pionted out to me that he would of felt guilty not being able to help the helpless as effectivley as he would asa vampire. He was also worried that in regards to ending his relationship with Buffy that he was depriving her of a chance to have a family and be able to have a normal relationship, so he felt he was being selfish sticking around, and holding her back from this. He felt she deserved better.
The only thing I agree on over Angel making desisions over people for his benefit is in S2's eppy where he fires his staff, even Lorne and Angel admit it wasn't right, in "Happy aniversary".

Angel is by nature a loner and used to making lone decisions, so yes it is difficult for him to consider others opinions and there was one instance where it wasn't the case in S1 where Angel wasn't charging the clients and Doyle and Cordy had to coerce him into mentioning the bill, infact it was Cordy herself who set up Angel investigations. In one eppy "Sanctuary" She even tricked him into signing a cheque for her "Holiday" after Faith gave her a black eye.He didn't protest that that was his decision to make. Cordy ran rings around Angel a few times if I remember rightly, that subtle hint that she wanted him to buy her clothes in s2 was one example. ("you gave my clothes away" )

Are we gonna critisise Robin Hood in the currant series for beingt he one to make overall decisions too? Cos thats what leaders do make decisions the followers follow. I see that it doesn't matter what Angel did what decision he made it will always get critisised by someone who has an issue with it.HE can't win, even if he did do it the "Right way" someone will critisise, find fault so that Spike can be argued as THE champ. Which is where ALL discussions concerning the two go we had "Who is the better man" thread, went the same way, we had "Who is deserves the Shanshu" went the same way, which is what this thread is turining into I think!
Now I'm gonna run away from this cos it's making me want to bang ny head so I'm inconcious!
No offense btw. But these this thread is scaring me! lol

E.T.A wonder why Spike didn't get his soul sooner?

[spikeswifeforever]

Even though I love Spike, he didn't really get a soul for a long time. Angel's had a soul for a very long time.

[Keanoite]

If Angel were to have sex with Buffy or stick around and have his feelings grow stronger there would be a Danger that he would experience that true happiness with Buffy, he was scared that it would happen again and he would turn evil, and even being with someone can make you happy doesn't need sex.

I think that's what the writters were implying they stood no chance given the threat so he could get his own series, hense the leaving.
I wasn't trying to attack her opinion just state what I observed from watching both. But I do wonder why he never did anything about his curse, like remove the clause so he wouldn't loose his soul.

The writers also had Angel "out the game" as the Oricles said when he was human, in other words he wasn't thier champion if he were human, and someone pionted out to me that he would of felt guilty not being able to help the helpless as effectivley as he would asa vampire. He was also worried that in regards to ending his relationship with Buffy that he was depriving her of a chance to have a family and be able to have a normal relationship, so he felt he was being selfish sticking around, and holding her back from this. He felt she deserved better.
The only thing I agree on over Angel making desisions over people for his benefit is in S2's eppy where he fires his staff, even Lorne and Angel admit it wasn't right, in "Happy aniversary".

Angel is by nature a loner and used to making lone decisions, so yes it is difficult for him to consider others opinions and there was one instance where it wasn't the case in S1 where Angel wasn't charging the clients and Doyle and Cordy had to coerce him into mentioning the bill, infact it was Cordy herself who set up Angel investigations. In one eppy "Sanctuary" She even tricked him into signing a cheque for her "Holiday" after Faith gave her a black eye.He didn't protest that that was his decision to make. Cordy ran rings around Angel a few times if I remember rightly, that subtle hint that she wanted him to buy her clothes in s2 was one example. ("you gave my clothes away" )

Are we gonna critisise Robin Hood in the currant series for beingt he one to make overall decisions too? Cos thats what leaders do make decisions the followers follow. I see that it doesn't matter what Angel did what decision he made it will always get critisised by someone who has an issue with it.HE can't win, even if he did do it the "Right way" someone will critisise, find fault so that Spike can be argued as THE champ. Which is where ALL discussions concerning the two go we had "Who is the better man" thread, went the same way, we had "Who is deserves the Shanshu" went the same way, which is what this thread is turining into I think!
Now I'm gonna run away from this cos it's making me want to bang ny head so I'm inconcious!
No offense btw. But these this thread is scaring me! lol

Personally I agree 100% with you. Angel didn't have a sex curse he had happiness curse. How was he to know where the line was drawn, just being around Buffy made him happy. He worried everyday if it was too happy. That is no way to live. As much as I adore Bangel and want him nd Buffy together he did the right thing when he left. His choices may not be the most popular choices but they are ALWAYS for the good of the people around him. Even when he fired his friends he did it because he felt himslef slipping and didn't want them to get drawn deeper than they had to be. When Angel makes these HUGE decisions he does them when he doesn't see any other option and frankly I find he is nearly always right.

[Dlou444]

I don't think Buffy and Angel SHOULDN'T have separated. I think they probably should have. But, I'm biased. And, maybe they couldn't have gotten over the sex thing OR the "HAPPINESS" thing and there is the part where they couldn't exactly have grown old together. My issue is HOW Angel just decided this.
That's not the way couples do things. That's not even how friends do things. Where was the discussing the options? Where was the looking into the curse loophole? Heck, there was that lovely ring that had they done a little investigating, they could have had a nice summer wedding in the park. But, NOOOO. There's not discussing it. No coming to a conclusion together. Angel just makes his decision and WHAMMO. (One of the reasons I'd NEVER vote for Bangel in any debate because that's just not how good relationships work.)
PLENTY of couples have issues. Like palabravampiress said, there are things that happen that people in love work around...or FIND a solution to. Like if two people find out their genes don't work and their kids would have birth defects, the husband doesn't just disappear and move on because it's "what's right". They sit. They discuss. They look into other options.
I'd have been fine with him going, it was the Here's What's Going To Happen And YOU, Little Girl, Have No Say in the matter. I don't care if it was because of the sex or the happiness or he was sick of living on the Hellmouth and wanted a nice break in LA. A little discussion wouldn't have killed any body.
If you ask me, he was lucky to live through it. My husband just might be dust, himself, if he took that kind of attitude with me!!


It wouldn't make any sense for Spike to be the one in the prophecy. If he was, the Senior Partners and the Powers wouldn't have been so interested in Angel for all those years. Moreover, it was Angel who developed the plan to take out the Circle of the Black Thorn, one of the major players in W&H's Apocalypse. In Season 2, Nathan and Holland all but confirm that Angel is destined to be the major player the Apocalypse. Alternatively, the Powers and the Partners have had absolutely no contact with Spike - it was Lindsey that sent the amulet to LA.

Besides, the show IS called ANGEL - one of the major reasons that Spike came on in Season 5 was to help appease the WB. It would be a little ridiculous to follow the journey of a specific character for many years only to find out that his journey was a sham. I believe that Angel is the champion of the Powers destined to prevent the Apocalypse. Although, like I said above, that doesn't have to mean that he is the one to become human in the end. The fact that his journey is ultimately one for forgiveness and atonement may mean that he needs to give up the reward, even after preventing the Apocalypse.

Okay, so the show is called Angel, I can follow that part. But, then, does that mean that if the show was called, "Vampires In LA" then things would be different?
I am trying really hard to not say duh here, but it seems pretty simple (at least in my cluttered mind) that neither the PTB OR WR&H would be horribly interested in Spike before because he didn't have a soul! Or because he didn't live in LA. Because the PTB only had a minor interest in Angel before he moved back to LA and WR&H had nothing to do with him. Seems to me, as long as Spike didn't have a soul and was living in Sunnydale, there was no need for anyone to pay attention to him.
Then again, I also never wonder why the world never paid attention to Brad Pitt when he was 12.

And we DID follow Doyle, Cordy, Fred and Wesley's Journeys only to have them end less than ideal. It's not THAT far of a stretch to imagine that Angel might not end up at the end of the Yellow Brick Road having a picnic.

I don't think anyone ever cleared up how the amulet got to LA. And, I have to say, LINDSEY seems the farthest from my mind to be capable! The PTB? Sure. WH&R? I could maybe see that. But, Lindsey? What did he do, climb down into the Hellmouth to get it? It was all kind of left in the ether, but Lindsey seems awfully unlikely.

[Angel's vision]

I don't think Buffy and Angel SHOULDN'T have separated. I think they probably should have. But, I'm biased. And, maybe they couldn't have gotten over the sex thing OR the "HAPPINESS" thing and there is the part where they couldn't exactly have grown old together. My issue is HOW Angel just decided this.
That's not the way couples do things. That's not even how friends do things. Where was the discussing the options? Where was the looking into the curse loophole? Heck, there was that lovely ring that had they done a little investigating, they could have had a nice summer wedding in the park. But, NOOOO. There's not discussing it. No coming to a conclusion together. Angel just makes his decision and WHAMMO. (One of the reasons I'd NEVER vote for Bangel in any debate because that's just not how good relationships work.)
PLENTY of couples have issues. Like palabravampiress said, there are things that happen that people in love work around...or FIND a solution to. Like if two people find out their genes don't work and their kids would have birth defects, the husband doesn't just disappear and move on because it's "what's right". They sit. They discuss. They look into other options.
I'd have been fine with him going, it was the Here's What's Going To Happen And YOU, Little Girl, Have No Say in the matter. I don't care if it was because of the sex or the happiness or he was sick of living on the Hellmouth and wanted a nice break in LA. A little discussion wouldn't have killed any body.


I was gonna not continue this debate but the above is so Nonobjective I'm gonna piont out that his curse was why he couldn't be happy, being with Buffy made him happy and the time he lost his soul he was evil and did terrible things, then it is returned, now he is very scared it may happen again, infact he is bothered by this so much he has a dream Buffy gets burnt literally after marrying, so he decides he can't be with her, now when someone wants to end a relationship it isn't about asking their permission, I ended one because my feelings were not the same, was I going to ask his permission to end it, and he turns round and says no? Would that be fair? Would it be fair if Buffy was asked if he could have her permission to end it, and she says no even though there was a danger he would get too happy agian? What position would that put Angel in? Knowing he had to leave?

There was nothing to discuss. He said his reasons thats it.

On the curse thing We were lead to believe there was no currant "cure" for the happiness clause, and even if they did talk about solutions, they would only end up at square one, "I can't be happy" .
I don't think your reaction If you ask me, he was lucky to live through it. My husband just might be dust, himself, if he took that kind of attitude with me!! is very constructive, Just what was Angel's attitude? I saw the "Sorry I know your the love of my life but this curse I have is a threat to us and I have no knowlege of any solution, whatsoever, My evil host who had control of my body killed the Gypsies who had the knowlege of this kind of magic, so asking them was out the question, and there is a chance I could get happy again even if we can't have sex, so I can't take that risk, I fee