Was Angel out of line?

[wiccianslayer]

who else thinks angel was outta line when he shouted at buffy saying get out of my town and she didnt know him among other things and he hit her

[Bored of the Dead]

Watch the entire episode again and you'll realise the answer is 'No'

[VisionGuy]

Angel wasn't out of line. I understand Buffy was mad for what Faith did but she had no right to go to LA and act like she calls the shots.

[StuckinTraffic]

No, Angel wasn't out of line....if anyone was, it was Buffy! I can understand her anger and the conclusions she jumped to when she saw Angel and Faith together, but she could have backed off and let Angel explain. That's what she should have done....but ok, heat of the moment, whatever. Either way, whatever Angel was up to in LA, away from her, trying to make his own life, was not her call.

[Xin Rong]

I loved this part of the episode, and i dont think he was out of line at all, in fact i kind of wanted her to bitch slap her again lol

[alohakeiki808]

Buffy showed up in LA uninvited and unannounced. If anyone was out of line, it was her. Now, personally, I would not have slapped her, but I still would have yelled at her.

[postmortem]

Does Buffy have to be invited to any city before she visits them??? Can Angel own a city??? Please...

[Blondie Bear]

I think I can see both sides of this. On Buffy's side, Faith had just attempted to take away her life, slept with her boyfriend, tried to kill her mother, threatened her friends, etc. etc. She was right to assume that Faith would go after Angel next, and right to try to take her out before she could do any more damage.

However, Angel was--again--getting somewhere with Faith. And this time, instead of Wesley barging in and ruining everything (who nobody liked at the time, anyway), Buffy does. If Faith hadn't wanted help (like she didn't in Enemies), Buffy's actions would have scared her off again.

Buffy had no reason to trust Faith. Angel did. Conflict was inevitable. I don't think it mattered where it happened; they would have fought about it. No, L.A. doesn't "belong" to Angel any more than Sunnydale "belongs" to Buffy. It was just a way for Angel to get the upper hand over Buffy in the argument.

So, I suppose that, yes, he was out of line. But so was she. So they're even. :angel:

[palabravampiress]

I'm getting my timeline confused. Is this before or after Angel barges into Buffy's life in Sunnydale - once on Thanksgiving and once to get all antagonistic over Riley?

[Bored of the Dead]

He didn't 'barge' in on Thanksgiving.

A couple differences.
1) Angel doesn't make himself known to Buffy in Pangs. He is definitely not ordering her around.
2) Doyle had a vision from the PTB's. In essence, the PTB's are telling him he must go help her. In this senario, Buffy is like all the other people he has helped in the past. Gotta say, it was a 'weak' reason for the PTB's to send Angel.

The Riley one.

Again, a couple of differences.
1) He was actually going to sort out what had occured including the bombshell she was seeing someone else.
2) He didn't demand she do things 'his way' while he was in Sunnydale.
3) Most of the stuff dealt with here was about the testosterone flying.

Although I see why you've suggested these because Angel went to Sunnydale, its actually completely different.

[Keanoite]

I don't think either of them was really out of line.

Buffy came to make sure Angel was ok, now that wasn't her only motivation, she wanted vengence on both Faith and Angel. Faith for all the obvious reasons that I don't think we need to go into. Angel on the other hand, she was still unbeliveably pissed and hurt at his departure from Sunnydale, I don't think she really understood why he left. She had been his entire universe in Sunnydale and now she turns up in L.A. and realises it's not true anymore. I think that was a very bitter pill for her to swallow. He had Cordy and Wes, his very own Willow and Xander and at the time they seemed to be a hell of a lot closer than the Scoobies. Another blow for Buffy. Then she sees him with Faith and snaps. I think in her head Angel is very much hers and after Faith sleeping with Riley seeing her with Angel too pushed her over the edge. Now I could be pushing it with this theory but here it goes anyway, I think Buffy was also angry with Angel for Riley sleeping with Faith. In the back of her head there must be voice telling her that Angel would have known. I think that annoys her more than anything, especially since it was essentially Angel's doing that caused he relationship with Riley. More than anything I think she is confused and hurt by this new Angel. No matter what, he always had her back but now thats all changed cuz he has a job to do and for the first time since they met she is not a part of it. For anyone looking on you can see how far Angel has come since leaving Buffy and I think that breaks her heart, that he WAS right to leave, so as she is no place in his shiny brand new life she throws hers in his face to hurt him like she is hurting. Suddenly Buffy doesn't have the power in their relationship and so she hurts him the only way she knows how, with words and the life he wanted for her.

Angel was just doing his job in my opinion. Maybe he shouldn't have hit her. He didn't have time for her vendetta and he was cut up about Riley. The Day that Wasn't was still very fresh in his mind and even though he knew she would not remember I think a part of him hoped she would and was angry that she didn't. Then when she flung that bull about loving and trusting Riley, it was all he could take so he kicked her out of L.A.

Essentially I don't think it's about who was out of line, it's about two people who care deeply for each other not knowing how to exist in this new stage of their relationship, so they strike out and hurt one another to protect themselves. Like Spike said 'Your not friends, you'll never be friends'.

[palabravampiress]

I don't think either of them was really out of line.

Buffy came to make sure Angel was ok, now that wasn't her only motivation, she wanted vengence on both Faith and Angel. Faith for all the obvious reasons that I don't think we need to go into. Angel on the other hand, she was still unbeliveably pissed and hurt at his departure from Sunnydale, I don't think she really understood why he left. She had been his entire universe in Sunnydale and now she turns up in L.A. and realises it's not true anymore. I think that was a very bitter pill for her to swallow. He had Cordy and Wes, his very own Willow and Xander and at the time they seemed to be a hell of a lot closer than the Scoobies. Another blow for Buffy. Then she sees him with Faith and snaps. I think in her head Angel is very much hers and after Faith sleeping with Riley seeing her with Angel too pushed her over the edge. Now I could be pushing it with this theory but here it goes anyway, I think Buffy was also angry with Angel for Riley sleeping with Faith. In the back of her head there must be voice telling her that Angel would have known. I think that annoys her more than anything, especially since it was essentially Angel's doing that caused he relationship with Riley. More than anything I think she is confused and hurt by this new Angel. No matter what, he always had her back but now thats all changed cuz he has a job to do and for the first time since they met she is not a part of it. For anyone looking on you can see how far Angel has come since leaving Buffy and I think that breaks her heart, that he WAS right to leave, so as she is no place in his shiny brand new life she throws hers in his face to hurt him like she is hurting. Suddenly Buffy doesn't have the power in their relationship and so she hurts him the only way she knows how, with words and the life he wanted for her.

Angel was just doing his job in my opinion. Maybe he shouldn't have hit her. He didn't have time for her vendetta and he was cut up about Riley. The Day that Wasn't was still very fresh in his mind and even though he knew she would not remember I think a part of him hoped she would and was angry that she didn't. Then when she flung that bull about loving and trusting Riley, it was all he could take so he kicked her out of L.A.

Essentially I don't think it's about who was out of line, it's about two people who care deeply for each other not knowing how to exist in this new stage of their relationship, so they strike out and hurt one another to protect themselves. Like Spike said 'Your not friends, you'll never be friends'.

I wish they could be friends, though!

I think adult Buffy and adult Angel could make very good friends. I think watching them reconnect as friends who love and respect one another could be a beautiful story. At this stage, yeah, they can't be friends. They still love each other too much. By the end of both series, though, they've both moved on a couple of times and had some pretty serious life-and-death shakeups. I think the past would be dulled a bit, or at least put in some perspective. First loves sticks with you, yeah, but only a little. My first love and I still look each other up when we find ourselves in the same side of the country. We don't love each other, but we can be friends and play a game of putt-putt and even share a dance at my wedding without weirdness. I'd like to see Buffy and Angel find that - with some world saving and ass kicking where I have putt-putt and dancing.

[Keanoite]

I wish they could be friends, though!

I think adult Buffy and adult Angel could make very good friends. I think watching them reconnect as friends who love and respect one another could be a beautiful story. At this stage, yeah, they can't be friends. They still love each other too much. By the end of both series, though, they've both moved on a couple of times and had some pretty serious life-and-death shakeups. I think the past would be dulled a bit, or at least put in some perspective. First loves sticks with you, yeah, but only a little. My first love and I still look each other up when we find ourselves in the same side of the country. We don't love each other, but we can be friends and play a game of putt-putt and even share a dance at my wedding without weirdness. I'd like to see Buffy and Angel find that - with some world saving and ass kicking where I have putt-putt and dancing.

Personally I think Spike was right, Buffy and Angel will never be friends. If I'm honest I don't really want them to be. I agree that your first love isn't always 'The One' but I do think Buffy and Angel are meant for each other. I'm hoping Joss will sort that out for me! Think Mr. and Mrs. Smith but with vampires!!

[palabravampiress]

Mr. and Mrs. Smith? You want them to try to kill each other -- again?! That was a rough ride the first time, man! I don't think I could take it if Angel -- not Angelus, but Angel -- tried to kill Buffy again.

Silly me... wanting everything to be all cordial and teamworky. What universe do I think we're in? Surely not the Buffyverse! You're probably right. Joss likes for his couples to be dysfunctional and at each others' throats. He's all about the overwhelming passion. What's that they say? "Love makes you do the wacky?" lol.

[benboy606]

No way! Not at all!

Imo, BUFFY was the one out of line ;) She went to L.A, tried to attack Faith and threatened to kill her, and then hit Angel. Oh, and then talked about how she moved on and how she didn't care about him anymore. Insane, Buffy. Angel was completely right.

[GATEGOD]

No way! Not at all!

Imo, BUFFY was the one out of line ;) She went to L.A, tried to attack Faith and threatened to kill her, and then hit Angel. Oh, and then talked about how she moved on and how she didn't care about him anymore. Insane, Buffy. Angel was completely right.

Angel was definitely in the right! He was trying to help someone.. Buffy wanted revenge. Plus, he loves her... and she keeps slapping him in the face with new people she keeps hooking up with.

[benboy606]

Angel was definitely in the right! He was trying to help someone.. Buffy wanted revenge. Plus, he loves her... and she keeps slapping him in the face with new people she keeps hooking up with.

Exactly!

He was saving Faith's soul (sounds cheesy, but true), and all Buffy wanted to do was slap her around. And Faith was obviously sorry, and was apologizing like crazy. She was just scared, and Angel really knew it (especially from the last scene in "Five By Five").

[Jaded Wolf]

He wasn't out of line. Buffy came in making orders like Angel was part of her "Scooby" gang and he's not. Angel never was and especially in the city he works in. LA is different than Sunnydale and Angel Investigations are dealing with some darker things. Buffy was out of her element there and Angel saw redeeming qualities in Faith. Buffy was too upset with Faith to see that so I think Angel was trying to allow Buffy to get some perspective.

Plus, the whole line where Buffy starts bragging about Riley sounded like some little school girl trying to make the ex mad. Angel had every right.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Exactly. I agree. Sunndydale and Los Angeles are too different worlds so speak. But Buffy had no right to come to LA in the manner that she did. I understand her feelings and I understand Angel's too. He was trying to help Faith once again and Buffy always assume the worst.

The bragging on Riley was so childish. I think she was only trying to make Angel angry because she was mad.

So definitely, he was not out of line.

[Jaded Wolf]

Exactly. I agree. Sunndydale and Los Angeles are too different worlds so speak. But Buffy had no right to come to LA in the manner that she did. I understand her feelings and I understand Angel's too. He was trying to help Faith once again and Buffy always assume the worst.

The bragging on Riley was so childish. I think she was only trying to make Angel angry because she was mad.

So definitely, he was not out of line.

I think this episode really showcased the maturity levels because here Buffy is fresh out of high school and Angel has been around for like 200 years or so. Buffy does the childish route by bragging on Riley and Angel could have played child games too. Instead he behaves very adult-like and fires back with a very mature, poignant answer. That was a very defining moment right there between the two.

[Blondie Bear]

The bragging on Riley was so childish. I think she was only trying to make Angel angry because she was mad.


I didn't see it so much as bragging as trying to regain equal footing. Angel was all set and fine and didn't need her anymore, so she was trying to show that she was fine, too, and didn't need him--even though she really did, so it was a lame attempt.

[Cordelia Chase*]

A very lame attempt. Thats what I meant by she was trying to make him mad. As she really wanted Angel but saw she wasnt needed anymore.

but

.............Idk....when it comes to Faith, something takes me over. I know I LOVE Buffy. She's the best but I always run in her(Faith) defense. I guess I understood where she was coming from.

[LadyLavinia]

He wasn't out of line. Buffy came in making orders like Angel was part of her "Scooby" gang and he's not. Angel never was and especially in the city he works in. LA is different than Sunnydale and Angel Investigations are dealing with some darker things. Buffy was out of her element there and Angel saw redeeming qualities in Faith. Buffy was too upset with Faith to see that so I think Angel was trying to allow Buffy to get some perspective.

Plus, the whole line where Buffy starts bragging about Riley sounded like some little school girl trying to make the ex mad. Angel had every right.

I agree that Buffy was ordering Angel around like he was part of the "Scooby" gang. And I agree that her anger towards Faith had blinded her from realizing what Angel was trying to do with the other Slayer. However . . . I disagree that Angel Investigations were dealing with darker aspects of the supernatural in L.A. than what Buffy and her friends were dealing with in Sunnydale.

Remember . . . L.A. was an old stomping ground for Buffy.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Remember . . . L.A. was an old stomping ground for Buffy.


True but she didnt stomp around that much.

Yes, Buffy just to be in LA but when she first became the Slayer. Something that she really didnt except at first. But Buffy was alone in this time. A teenager not worrying about vampires but about the latest trend of fashion.

And while Buffy was in LA she really didnt deal with anything "dark" so to speak. SHe recently discovered vampires. And thats all.

[VisionGuy]

And while Buffy was in LA she really didnt deal with anything "dark" so to speak. SHe recently discovered vampires. And thats all.

Yes, and in season one, Buffy gives the impression that she's only hunted vampires by telling Giles she is a VAMPIRE slayer in the pilot.

[palabravampiress]

I disagree with the theory that Buffy behaved in an immature manner by chasing a known threat to L.A. and then stepping all over Angel's territory.

First off, there was at that time supposed to be one slayer in all the world. She guards the Hellmouth because there's more demon activity there than anywhere else in the world -- L.A. included, not because it's some sort of playpen to L.A.'s real world badness. That said, there's one slayer in the world (as a rule). That pretty much means everywhere in the world is in her jurisdiction. As a vampire, Angel can't just carve out a piece and hang up a "No Slayer's Allowed" sign like it's a clubhouse and he's a boy who believes in girl cooties. He doesn't have that right. No beasty has that right. The slayer can come and go as she pleases.

Secondly, Angel was sticking his nose into a slayer problem, not the other way around. His intentions were good, but part of what was going on with Faith was a power dynamic between the two slayers. There was supposed to be one slayer. Instead, there were two. One went rogue even after attempts were made to recover her. Buffy was doing her duty in attempting to take out a dangerous element of the demon world and she was also restoring balance by removing the second slayer. She was angry and vengeful, yes, but she also had a point as well as every right to deal with the Faith problem. The Faith problem was Buffy's problem -- even moreso when Faith went after Buffy's family, body, and position as THE slayer. The facts that Angel wanted to help Faith and that she ended up in L.A. do not necessarily give Angel the right to interfere by telling Buffy what she can or cannot do and where she can or cannot do it.

Angel has no rights in this slayer/vampire thing. Buffy's the boss. Angel exists because she allows him to live. She makes an exception for his souled status just as, later, she makes an exception for Anya's changed nature, for Spike's chip, and for Clem's ability to assimilate. For him to assert any sort of rights over Buffy is ridiculous. He certainly has no right to hit her or to expel her from "his" town just because he doesn't like her policy regarding rogue slayers. I'm betting that if he wasn't her ex, his butt would have been dust for far less than that.

I think Angel was way out of line. He was asserting rights and control that he just plain didn't have.

[Angel's vision]

I hate to sound a party pooper but Faith went to LA and TRIED to kill him via WolfRam and Hart, then she attacked his freinds before COLLAPSING in his arms crying so yeah it was HIS territory, broken torn up and in need of redemption yeah ,Faith fit the bill, then Buffy turns up, ok she was worried and wanted to protect Angel, and stop Faith, and get her own back, most poeple would, but what the Issue here is Buffy didn't know when to BACK off and LET Faith take responcibility for her actions, let her take her own path to redemption, she INTERFERED at every turn Angel made, by upsetting Faith so she would snap and she would prove her piont, but thankfully Faith didn't bite, and ONLY helped stop the council when it involved killing. A step too far.


Then when her tantrum was over she saw that Angel's world didn't involve her anymore so she nastilly rubbed her "New life" in his face which was out of order,and he had every right to say what he said to her, in fact I would of said those things myself, she was very childish going "See Faith wins again" it wasn't about Faith winning she was trying to redeem herself and refused to see it deliberatly because she didn't know when to back off when it was necessary, and she admited he was right to say the things he said in the following Buffy ep.

[Cordelia Chase*]

I disagree with the theory that Buffy behaved in an immature manner by chasing a known threat to L.A. and then stepping all over Angel's territory.

First off, there was at that time supposed to be one slayer in all the world. She guards the Hellmouth because there's more demon activity there than anywhere else in the world -- L.A. included, not because it's some sort of playpen to L.A.'s real world badness. That said, there's one slayer in the world (as a rule). That pretty much means everywhere in the world is in her jurisdiction. As a vampire, Angel can't just carve out a piece and hang up a "No Slayer's Allowed" sign like it's a clubhouse and he's a boy who believes in girl cooties. He doesn't have that right. No beasty has that right. The slayer can come and go as she pleases.

Secondly, Angel was sticking his nose into a slayer problem, not the other way around. His intentions were good, but part of what was going on with Faith was a power dynamic between the two slayers. There was supposed to be one slayer. Instead, there were two. One went rogue even after attempts were made to recover her. Buffy was doing her duty in attempting to take out a dangerous element of the demon world and she was also restoring balance by removing the second slayer. She was angry and vengeful, yes, but she also had a point as well as every right to deal with the Faith problem. The Faith problem was Buffy's problem -- even moreso when Faith went after Buffy's family, body, and position as THE slayer. The facts that Angel wanted to help Faith and that she ended up in L.A. do not necessarily give Angel the right to interfere by telling Buffy what she can or cannot do and where she can or cannot do it.

Angel has no rights in this slayer/vampire thing. Buffy's the boss. Angel exists because she allows him to live. She makes an exception for his souled status just as, later, she makes an exception for Anya's changed nature, for Spike's chip, and for Clem's ability to assimilate. For him to assert any sort of rights over Buffy is ridiculous. He certainly has no right to hit her or to expel her from "his" town just because he doesn't like her policy regarding rogue slayers. I'm betting that if he wasn't her ex, his butt would have been dust for far less than that.

I think Angel was way out of line. He was asserting rights and control that he just plain didn't have.


Anyways, I disagree with Angel "sticking his noes in anything".

Faith came to LA.
Wolfram and Hart recruited her.
She attacked ANgel in hopes that he would kill her.

Buffy could of came to LA as she did. There was nothing wrong with that. Only how she acted was the problem. But we wouldnt have had to worry about any of this if BUffy would of let Angel get through to Faith back in Sunnydale instead of acting selfish and immature once again.

And with removing the second Slayer thing. HELLO! Another one would of been called so I dont think removing the second slayer to restore balance was an issue. As we saw when Kendra died, Faith was called. So if Faith would have been "taken out" by Buffy, another girl would have been "chosen". ANd at the time it wasnt about the SLayer/Vampire thing you suggested. It was about what was going on in there lives.

And I doubt Angel lives only because Buffy "allows" it. He's an 2 century old vampire and if it came down to him and Buffy fighting , him for his life, i doubt he'd let her just stake him.

I really do understand Buffy's point of view, but she ket throwing her new life in it and placing everything on Faith which was right but until she said that Faith wins again.

Totally out of line.

[palabravampiress]

I Buffy was totally in the right. She did act kind of snotty.

As for being in L.A. and being recruited by Wolfram and Hart, well, while I think those things do deserve a spot on Angel's radar screen, I don't think those give him dibs. Buffy's got a right to be involved, too. Faith provoking him gave him the right to deal with her as he did or to kill her.

Now, my problem with Angel is pretty much the same as my problem with Buffy in this situation. Buffy came in and wanted to deal with it one way. No discussion. Angel wanted to deal with it another way. No discussion. Both thought their way was right. Neither were willing to budge.

I wish they'd sat down together and had a rational chat. But they didn't. That leads me to question -- if compromise is off the table, as it was for those two -- who has the right to make the final call. According to my logic, that's Buffy. She's the one with the sacred duty, after all.

As far as if they were to go toe-to-toe... they did. Buffy killed Angel once. Just her. No friends. No love. No confidence. Just Buffy. It was a whole big climactic battle thingie. I have no trouble believing she'd do it again. I think the AI team thought so, too, which is why they called Faith instead of Buffy in when Angelus escaped. Faith, grateful for the help that Angel offered during this little incident, wanted to return the favor. Buffy, who'd killed Angelus once before, would do it again. That's why I think Angel needs to step lightly and have a little more respect for the slayer. He lives (or unlives) in the open, has any sort of territory at all, and fights the good fight because Buffy has decided to make an exception for the fact that he has a soul. Some other slayer (like Kendra, for instance) may not have made that exception. That's why I say that, although L.A. may be his territory in the demon world, Angel doesn't have any territory out of which he can just shut the slayer because he'd rather handle things his way.

As for the second slayer thing, good point, Cordelia Chase*. I forgot another one would be called. So that part of my argument is out the window. I still think a rogue slayer is slayer business, though. It was slayer business in season 5 when Andrew and the other slayers came to pick up one of their number. Why wouldn't it be slayer business when it was Faith? I think Angel had a say. I think his opinion should have been important. But do I think that a once and future rogue vampire should have greater say than the slayer in the matter of a slayer gone wrong? No. No I don't.

[Angel's vision]

I agree that a rogue slayer is slayer business and both didn't listen when it came to Faith, Angel should of understood Buffy was pissed, and try to clam her and explain things but Buffy in her "wisdom" didn't listen when he did say something, so the fault lied with her not knowing when to back off which was my issue with Buffy, Angel hadn't time for vendettas to get in the way that's why he told her to stop interfering, for which I can't blame him.

It was her "see Faith wins again" bit that put finally nail in the coffin in the respect I had for her charactor ( Have none for her at all now especialy after Damage) THAT was out of order it wasn't Faith wins again it was her petty little mind expressing it's self again. That scene just screemed "child" to me.

[Bangelxx]

Its not Angel's city- Buffy can go wherever she wants...I was SO MAD when he said all that, but its true, he had a point.

[Cordelia Chase*]

NO its not his city but the whole point of him leavoing was to be away from Buffy. To be out on his own.

[Keanoite]

Honestly I don't think that either of them were entirely at fault. They were BOTH doing their jobs. Buffy was the Slayer and Faith being a Slayer too is automatically her business but so too is it Angel's. He was employed by the powers to help the helpless, to save souls. I don't think anyone could disagree that Faith's soul needed saving. Buffy wasn't and still isn't qualififed to do that. She doesn't have it in her but Angel does.

This ep and the following episode on Buffy are basically and hour and a half dedicated to human pain. Raw, real human emotion and that is why so many things were said and done that were not necessarily intended. We have to remember that Buffy and Angel really weren't in each other's worlds anymore. They didn't know the ins and outs of their day to day lives. I think this unsettled to two of them in no small amount.

Buffy and Angel had been each other's constants for three years, the one thing that both could rely on without fail. When Buffy heads to L.A. this isn't really true anymore. They were both hit with curve ball after curve ball.

-Angel finding out that Buffy found that someone to take her into the light. It may have been what he left her for but idea of that and the reality of it are two very different things. Like he said, it cut him up inside.

-Buffy has a very clear image of Angel in her mind and it basically consists of him holding her in his arms and fighting off her demons. That is an almost sacred thing to her, Angel is hers and I think she in part came to L.A. for him fight her demons for her again. Riley not being able to tell the difference cut her deeper than she would like, Faith once told Buffy that Buffy was just like her. This didn't sit well with Buffy at all and Riley not being able to see that difference, something that I think Buffy clings to, broke Buffy a little. So she ran to the one thing that could ever fix her but walking down those stairs and seeing Angel give that comort to Faith shattered her.

-I think seeing Angel in his new life and a new role was heartbreaking for Buffy. He had always needed her in Sunnydale. She pretty much was his life but in L.A. he has friends, loyal friends at that. At the time Scoobies were pretty much ready to implode. She most have felt like a failure. She still needed him but he, to her eyes at least did not need her. He was stronger, more assertive, he was a leader and all the while her army was falling apart.


And because of this Buffy lashes out, she feels threatened in the worst way and so she goes on the offensive. The things she says to him and he to her were designed to cause the most pain. I don't think they necessarily meant them at all. Buffy clearly didn't trust nor love Riley and while Buffy may not have known how Angel takes his blood anymore she still knows him better than anyone because she knew just what to say to hurt him as much as possible and vice versa.

Buffy and Angel were not two people being petty or vying for ownership of towns. They were two people who care about each other deeply but they had a new world thrust upon them and they just didn't know how to ajust or what part they had to play now. What we saw in Sanctuary and The Yoka Factor are Buffy and ANgel fumbling threw these new roles, hoping to find their footing. Neither of them were at fault they were just hurt.

[The Chosen]

Angel was not outta line. Buffy was. She came tromping in there and sometimes I think she'd rather see the worst in people. Plus she was bossy.

That's why Buffy isn't my favorite character lol.

[GATEGOD]

Well Instead of taking both sides I've taken Angel's. Buffy was definitely out of line here, not Angel. He only hit her because she wasn't thinking straight and was going after Faith. All that was on Buffy's mind was hurting Faith/ getting justice for what she did. While Angel was only thinking about helping Faith and getting her redemption. His job. He told her to leave, he should have. He loves her. She knows that. And yet she is with someone else and he can't deal with it. The person he loves is with someone else. Who wouldn't have told her to leave? Anyways I don't think Angel was at fault.

[Keanoite]

No matter what way I look at it I can't help but see both sides

[GATEGOD]

No matter what way I look at it I can't help but see both sides

Haha like me and Bangel/Spuffy : king :

[Keanoite]

Haha like me and Bangel/Spuffy : king :

Well that one I definietly am not as diplomatic

[white avenger]

Did you notice that she gets almost the same expression here when Angel hits her as when Spike does the same thing later n "Wrecked?" On both occasions, she seems more shocked that THEY would dare to hit HER, even though on both occasions, she hit them first. Come to think of it, she even kicked Riley around once. No wonder she can't keep a guy!

[Randy Giles]

Buffy was such a hardcore bitch to EVERYONE in this episode that I did not even watch Buffy for a month after first seeing this episode. I hated her. And Angel was not out of line whatsoever.

[TheHeartist]

The common consensus is clearly no. As for Angel's "This is my city" comment, he meant that L.A. was under HIS protection, the Slayer's presence was overkill. This episode is interesting as Buffy is portrayed as a villian or nemesis of some sorts, Angel has to race against time to stop her from possibly killing Faith.

[wiccianslayer]

Actually buffy was there first mind you angel was there in are you now or have you ever been GRRRR mind you the writers didn't plan that then so oh i dunno!

[white avenger]

I think that the interaction between Buffy and Angel in this episode establish one thing for really the first time. Angel isn't Buffy's side kick anymore. Regardless of what their relationship was in the past or would be in the future he no longer deferred to her simply because she was Buffy, or even because she was the Slayer. Technically, in fact, it was actually Faith's territory, because she was THE Slayer, and had been ever since she was Called. The fact that Faith had temporarily gone evil for awhile never changed that. Buffy was just filling in while the REAL Slayer, the girl who was the latest in the Slayer line, either wouldn't or couldn't fulfill her duties.

Buffy was out of line, and deserved more than what she got. LA WAS his town, just as Sunnydale and the hellmouth was Buffy's territory. Buffy just had trouble accepting that.

[Kana]

I tell you what's interesting about this situation: it's symptomatic of Buffy quitting the WC. I'm not suggesting that in itself was a ill-advised move because as Giles and later Buffy pointed out, she is the one in the thick of it. However, there is now no overriding authority on such issues (although one may argue there was never one to begin with).

Doyle and Wesley both touch upon some interesting terms in regards to Buffy and Angel respectively: "Renegade"/Vigilante. I've always maintained this means Buffy and Angel do not have 'imposed' authority, in fact they are their own bosses and they make their own rules. Faith isn't implicitly Buffy's responsibility nor Angel's. Both of them chose their paths and chose how to deal with such situations. Sunnydale isn't anyone's territory nor is LAs, Buffy and Angel chose to operate in those places.

A year before, Wesley gave Buffy a lecture on laws that have existed before civilisation but Buffy didn't care and to be honest I agree that, blindly following a patriarcal sytem, who seemed just as interested in dominance as they do in justice required a step that empowers Buffy and the individuals working with her. For a long time, Giles, Angel, the scoobies, all cooperated as a team. Although Buffy has made the plans, she as also taken advice, and let others make decisions in leiu of her.

Cooperation is fine, great even until we have a disagreement. If they are in disagreement, does anyone pull rank and if so, in which situation?

Buffy wanted revenge on Faith but also believed that Faith should be punished. I'll take punishment by prison out of the equation because I agree with Wes and Angel that holding a Slayer in prison against her will is pretty dumb, I'm still not even sure why Buffy suggested it, (perhaps her anger was chipping away at her IQ points). So the only option left that Buffy was willing to adhere to was 'Slayer law'. In other words Buffy would get the final say as to what happens to Faith. After everything that Faith did to her, she feels she has a right to make that call.

Angel doesn't think Faith should simply get away with what happened. If she were totally soulless or sociopathic, this may be different but he believed that Faith did feel remorse for her actions and therefore, simply living with it is punishment in itself. He also thinks Buffy intervention will have a detrimental effect on Faith's redemption. Angel believes in saving souls, that's the path he's defined for himself. He chooses not to let Buffy interfere because it goes against that credo. His soul saving mission is part of his redemption and he isn't about to let Buffy balls it up.

Both viewpoints seem incompatible and this is problematic when dealing with the good and plenties. Unlike the WC and Initiative or even institutions of evil, their main priority isn't simply the jealous coveting of power, it's about what's right or what they believe is right. I personally don't think Buffy has rank over Angel in LA or Sunnydale unless they somehow formally agree on guidlines. Angel implied that they had agreed to 'deal' with their respective towns but as I think Keanoite said, that was as much about their relationship as it was about jurisdiction, arguably more so.

The saving grace happens in The Yoko Factor when Angel apologizes for what happened in LA. At first I though "Why does Angel have to apologize?" but then I looked at it from Angel's perspective. It wasn't simply about being right but mending the fractures in the relationship. Buffy also apologized for making judgements about Angel was trying to do. This doesn't magic away the issues between Faith and Buffy (as we see) nor does completely define the lines of authority among the good and plenties. What it does do is instigate the foundatioms of a situation where Champions can coexist and cooperate without being too detrimental to each others mission statement. This is more likely to happen when Angel and Buffy at not fighting each other as champions or ex-lovers.

[Scythus]

The common consensus is clearly no. As for Angel's "This is my city" comment, he meant that L.A. was under HIS protection, the Slayer's presence was overkill. This episode is interesting as Buffy is portrayed as a villian or nemesis of some sorts, Angel has to race against time to stop her from possibly killing Faith.

i think she's portrayed so because, as Angel said, she went to L.A. mainly for Faith, she knows that Angel can look after himself. she just wanted revenge on Faith, understandably so, but that didn't give her the right to barge in on things when she could see that Angel was getting somewhere with Faith.
Also it annoys me that Buffy seems to think its fine for her to hit someone but is shocked when they hit her back, she deserves a good slapping sometimes

[celestialarrow]

you know what i know everyone's going to disagree with me but buffy coming to L.A. was not out of line. Buffy trying to kill faith was not out of line and i dont get why anyone would say it was faith not only harassed and tormented buffy but took over her body and was going to let her rot away in england and even tried to beat her to death how is that not out of line. Though she came to L.A. seeking vengeance i think she really was concerned about angel well being and with good motives because if you guys seemed to forget faith not only came to L.A. unannounced but she tried to kill angel gave cordy a black eye and tortured wesley. I mean I get it she wasn't mentally stable but D@mn. sure buffy may have said some hurtful things but how can you blame her faith had just used her(buffy) body to sleep with a guy she loved. And to find her(faith) cuddled up with angel it was too much. Someone mention how angel was trying to help faith but how many time did buffy try and like she said faith spat on her. And to kick buffy out of L.A. please how many times has angel showed up unannouced.

[Scythus]

you know what i know everyone's going to disagree with me but buffy coming to L.A. was not out of line. Buffy trying to kill faith was not out of line and i dont get why anyone would say it was faith not only harassed and tormented buffy but took over her body and was going to let her rot away in england and even tried to beat her to death how is that not out of line. Though she came to L.A. seeking vengeance i think she really was concerned about angel well being and with good motives because if you guys seemed to forget faith not only came to L.A. unannounced but she tried to kill angel gave cordy a black eye and tortured wesley. I mean I get it she wasn't mentally stable but D@mn. sure buffy may have said some hurtful things but how can you blame her faith had just used her(buffy) body to sleep with a guy she loved. And to find her(faith) cuddled up with angel it was too much. Someone mention how angel was trying to help faith but how many time did buffy try and like she said faith spat on her. And to kick buffy out of L.A. please how many times has angel showed up unannouced.
as another poster said, whenever Angel has turned up before he hasn't demanded that they do things his way. i dont think buffy turning up is the question, its how she treated Angel when she got there. Her feelings toward Faith are understandable considering all she did but Buffy knew prison wouldn't do anything for Faith or even hold her for long if she didn't want to be there. so what was she going to do, kill her? She failed to help Faith before but in sunnydale Angel almost got through to her before Wesley kidnapped her, so Buffy should have been ready to let Angel carry on what he was doing, after all he knows what its like to be a killer and come back

[celestialarrow]

[QUOTE=Scythus;505489]as another poster said, whenever Angel has turned up before he hasn't demanded that they do things his way. i dont think buffy turning up is the question, its how she treated Angel when she got there. Her feelings toward Faith are understandable considering all she did but Buffy knew prison wouldn't do anything for Faith or even hold her for long if she didn't want to be there. so what was she going to do, kill her? She failed to help Faith before but in sunnydale Angel almost got through to her before Wesley kidnapped her, so Buffy should have been ready to let Angel carry on what he was doing, after all he knows what its like to be a killer and come back


Okay fair I guess I'm a little bias due to it being Buffy.

[eunsoma]

mmm... I think that Buffy had a right to be there, but maybe she shouldn't have acted exactly the way she did. Angel had a better chance at getting through to Faith than Buffy did, but Buffy was angry (WHO WOULDN'T BE) so I can completely understand her reasons for behaving the way she did. I think that if Buffy had have walked in on Angel by himself and he'd first had a chance to explain everything, things would have gone a lot better. I think that the fact that they were hugging is what ticked Buffy off. I mean, Faith had stolen her body, slept with her boyfriend, sent her packing to a Watchers Council prison, nearly killed her mom, and hurt her and her friends many times before, oooh and I forgot to mention she was plotting to destroy the world (or at least Sunnydale) with the Mayor the year before. I'd be mad too.

[x Queen cordy x]

what i dont get is buffy seemed like i completely different person on angel she was acting like a bit of a bitca but on buffy as faith walks away its almost like she understands and she feels faiths pain and the next thing shes on angel going off her head?

[Lauryn Summers]

I just watched this episode, but I don't watch Angel (at least at this point in time) so my opinion might not be very valid. So anyway...I don't think Buffy had the right to make such accusations when she didn't really know what was going on. Buffy has a tendency of having her emotions cloud her logic (from what I've seen anyway) and this episode is one example of it. From what my mind formed, she is under the impression that Angel is trying to "get with" Faith (I had no idea how to put this!) and that his proable feelings for her are clouding the fact that Faith "is" (from Buffy's memory and experience) dangerous. In Buffy's defence, she HAD tried to help Faith but her fellow Slayer didn't have that intention. Because of her (Buffy's) love for Angel and her dislike and distrust of Faith, she of course would be jealous of the hug that Angel and Faith shared.

I don't think Buffy tried to make it how she wanted. She wanted Faith to go to jail of course because of her experiences with Faith have rarely been good. I think those experiences made her express herself very forcefully. But I also think if Angel had been in her position, he might have done the same.

In the struggle where Buffy tried to prevent Faith from leaving, I think it was pretty natural for Buffy to strike Angel (it's her nature really...he was struggling so she fought back in the way she knows how). In the heat of the moment I think it was natural for Angel to strike back. Of course, it would be absolutly natural for Buffy to react the way she did, shocked. After all, it's Angel.

However, on the other side, I think Angel was right in that Buffy came to LA because of Faith not because of Angel. Buffy may have been worried about Angel, but because she was afraid that FAITH would try to destroy Angel's life as she had nearly destroyed Buffy's. She was concerened about Angel being manipulated by Faith so wasn't prepared to listen to any argument that Faith might have been rehabilitating. Angel was right in that fact, and I think he had a valid point. Also to defend Angel, I don't think he "kicked her out of LA". From what I heard, he said that she can't make the rules about goings on in "his city" which is valid because she doens't live in LA. She lives in Sunnydale. If Angel had gone to Sunnydale and tried to tell Buffy that she was doing wrong in being with Riley, or whatever (that's just a random example) then I think Buffy would have reacted the same way. As to the "Get out" comment, I was under the impression after the episode that he just meant get out of the building, away from him. Yes, it also can mean to get out of LA, but I don't think that was his intention.

[Angel's vision]

I think this shold be merged with the Buffy B*t*h thread my self, both are on the same theme...

[littlewilly]

It can be summed up in 6 words. *Buffy was wrong, Angel was right.*

[DrusillaRox]

I think Buffy was out of line, seriously, she told him off in " I will remember you" they need to get on with their lives