Buffy shallow series

[safetydance]

what ways could people see buffy (series) as shallow?

[nerd4hire]

You'd probably have better luck with that one if you asked it on a "Charmed" board (do they still exist?). They never see the same show I watch when they watch Buffy. Myself I see nothing shallow about BTVS.

OK wait a minute. I see you posted this in the Season 1 forum. Are you thinking maybe Season 1 has less depth than future seasons? Yeah OK, I can maybe go along with that one.

[safetydance]

yeah season 1 is basically getting to know buffy.

[Senior Watcher]

yeah season 1 is basically getting to know buffy.

it is true that S1 is getting to know buffy, but you posted this thread in S1 of Angel.

[MLLamble]

True, Season one lacks storyline depth. Also, the character of Buffy in season one was pretty shallow, very "I can't save the world, I wanna have fun!".

[TabulaRasa]

Yes it is sad to say there is still atleast one charmed board charmed-boards.com so you could go there and ask but people will probably answer meannnly.
I don't think it was too shallow. I mean at 16 most of us don't want to do anything else but have fun too. Although that was not me. I wasn't the type to go out much. I would have liked saving the world, lol.

[Your Creamy Coolness]

Sad to say? That is slightly rude to those of us who enjoyed the show. I know you may not like Charmed...but trust me it is still alive and well with a board that boast about the same amount of members as this one. Me being one. Yeah Charmed wasn't Buffy, but it was great escape for me from this horrid horrid world we live in. It saved my life when I had a horrid accident that almost ended it. It gave me something to look forward to every week. It may be sad to you, but it was great fun for a lot of fans. It was nice to go to a world where good always wins and fantastical things happen. I am not being bitchy. However, Charmed is still alive and well in many of the fans hearts......

If your a fan its called Theprophecy.net. :) charmed-boards.com isn't good at all.

[Keanoite]

Series one kinda had to be shallow didn't it? I mean while Buffy had gone through some heavy stuff i.e. being called, parents divorce, arson, getting kicked out of school, she still had her innocence and was naive enough to think she could be a normal girl. I think it was only after she drowned and especially after Angel lost his soul that Buffy realised that 'this' was her life, and the shallowness kinda seeped away.

[Joyce Summers]

Yeah, I think Buffy was so much bubblier and 'shallow' I guess in season one because she hadn't faced all the dark, hearbreaking things she would see in later seasons. I mean, like you guys said she was sixteen, a time when you do just wanna have fun, you're not really caring too much about the big picture. But, I think Prophecy Girl is where Buffy does lose her childlike innocence (if not her bubbliness) as she realizes she has to do the right thing even if it means sacrificing her own life when she sees what the vampires did to Willow and how shocked and broken she was.
I think it's fun though seeing Buffy like this, you know more concerned about cheerleading than Slaying. Coz when you watch like season 5 onwards and you're feeling very deep and you know slightly down, haha, you can flick back to season one and get that feel good boost which I think the season puts across.
And as for Charmed references, I was briefly a charmed fan but i'm a purist in that area i.e i only like season one and personally I believe Buffy to be far superior. However, if you want a good board, I'd say Charmed-Net not Prophecy, as it is pretty cool and it's filled with as much Buffy fans as Charmed fans which you know makes for good boardiness (okay board pimpage over..)

[GATEGOD]

True, Season one lacks storyline depth. Also, the character of Buffy in season one was pretty shallow, very "I can't save the world, I wanna have fun!".

That's because she was a teenage girl, she didn't want to risk dieing on a daily bases, and have little sleep each night, would you. lol :cheering:

[Keanoite]

That's because she was a teenage girl, she didn't want to risk dieing on a daily bases, and have little sleep each night, would you. lol :cheering:

Exactly! and personally I wouldn't give up Buffy singing 'Macho Man' in a cheerleader uniform for anyone!:cheering:

[GATEGOD]

Yea ^_^ all things Buffy are cute :) especially , lol , if she's singing ^_^

[Keanoite]

I would of loved if she got to sing in Caritas...it would have been great!

[Joyce Summers]

Yeah, I always wanted that to happen. That is any of the Scoobies sing at Caritas. It would have been really cool to hear what Lorne saw. Then again maybe since the Scoobies are *constantly* led by prophecies and destinies and majiks maybe they realized it would give away too many storylines! haha

[Keanoite]

Its a pity we never saw it...I always was hoping beyond hope that Angel would have to sing Manilow in front of the Scoobies...mainly for Buffy and Xander's reaction...it would have been the best tv EVER!!

[nerd4hire]

I heard Tom Lenke is an opera singer. Wouldn't that be hilarious if Andrew had to sing for Lorne, and he starts belting out an aria, or something.

[Keanoite]

I heard Tom Lenke is an opera singer. Wouldn't that be hilarious if Andrew had to sing for Lorne, and he starts belting out an aria, or something.

That would have been brilliant!! the absolute last thing you would have expected!

[hyperballadbrad]

Shallow?

People who don't think or want to use their brains would call it shallow

Or are you referring to just Season 1? Or the 'series'? Bit confused.

Anyway... season1 is all about character/Buffyverse building

[palabravampiress]

Sure, Season 1 is more shallow than later seasons, but that's because we're still adding layers. It takes time to build characters that are "deep." Of course the characters are more shallow when we meet them than they are after we watch them develop for awhile. That's true of almost all shows.

[Chasing Cordy]

Without comparing BtVS to any other show, it can easily be seen as shallow.
It's almost like it has great writing and the writers hope that the cleverness of their writing will overshadow the fact that there is not really any series-long storyline.
I would say BtVS is like a fancy-looking machine with all the bells and whistles but does not offer much.

Comparing it to Charmed however is a bit unfair since Charmed had some pretty crappy writing but the storyline is there through the entire series. Charmed is like a computer tower...you can have a real dull look to it on the surface but the real workings of it take place inside--and if you don't want to go deep, you'll come away not impressed.

Back to Buffy's show:
The writing is great but apart from season five there is no real storyline.
It's the writing...and that's it.
So if people do find Buffy shallow, it's probably due to that.

[palabravampiress]

Without comparing BtVS to any other show, it can easily be seen as shallow.
It's almost like it has great writing and the writers hope that the cleverness of their writing will overshadow the fact that there is not really any series-long storyline.
I would say BtVS is like a fancy-looking machine with all the bells and whistles but does not offer much.

Comparing it to Charmed however is a bit unfair since Charmed had some pretty crappy writing but the storyline is there through the entire series. Charmed is like a computer tower...you can have a real dull look to it on the surface but the real workings of it take place inside--and if you don't want to go deep, you'll come away not impressed.

Back to Buffy's show:
The writing is great but apart from season five there is no real storyline.
It's the writing...and that's it.
So if people do find Buffy shallow, it's probably due to that.

You think there's no underlying narrative arc?

Season 1, I will grant you, is episodic in nature. The events in season 1 lack a cohesive narrative arc. Season 2 had much more of an arc, this based primarily on thematic content. Seasons 3 - 5 all had a "big bad" to provide a very stable narrative arc for each of those seasons. Season 6 was structured much more like Season 2, in that its arc was based on thematic content. Season 7 looked like it attempted to have a cohesive narrative arc, but I think it failed. The writers tried to place too many disparate elements into play - especially at the last minute - and so the result was a jumble. The narrative arc of the entire series was Buffy's journey from adolescent to capable woman, hence the symbolic destruction of her adolescent home at the end. Coming-of-age stories may be done all the time, but that doesn't mean they aren't stories! What I see in Buffy is a coming-of-age story presented in seven parts. Each part is like one volume of the series. Some of the volumes are better written than others, yeah, but Buffy has a narrative arc similar to that of Harry Potter or the Hornblower series or anything out of Dickens. I'm not saying it's as good as Dickens, mind you, I'm just saying the structure is equally as valid.

[Keanoite]

Without comparing BtVS to any other show, it can easily be seen as shallow.
It's almost like it has great writing and the writers hope that the cleverness of their writing will overshadow the fact that there is not really any series-long storyline.
I would say BtVS is like a fancy-looking machine with all the bells and whistles but does not offer much.

Comparing it to Charmed however is a bit unfair since Charmed had some pretty crappy writing but the storyline is there through the entire series. Charmed is like a computer tower...you can have a real dull look to it on the surface but the real workings of it take place inside--and if you don't want to go deep, you'll come away not impressed.

Back to Buffy's show:
The writing is great but apart from season five there is no real storyline.
It's the writing...and that's it.
So if people do find Buffy shallow, it's probably due to that.

Are you sure you were watching Buffy the show and not Buffy the movie? If the show had anything it was storyline! Like Pal said it was about growing from adolescence to adulthood! The storyline was about the life of this incredible girl who wanted nothing but to be normal and even though it seemed impossible she got her wish in the end. I'm sorry if I seem a bit narky but I actually feel slightly insulted that you would even say that about the show.

[GATEGOD]

The only thing that sucks about season 1, is how do you get people to watch Buffy if the first season is nearly the worst season... ^.^ I don't think it sucked I loved it, but others might say it's corny and weird and oh my .. a bug person lol! This is true though! Mostly. it was about growing from adolescence to adulthood! The storyline was about the life of this incredible girl who wanted nothing but to be normal and even though it seemed impossible she got her wish in the end.

[Keanoite]

The only thing that sucks about season 1, is how do you get people to watch Buffy if the first season is nearly the worst season... ^.^ I don't think it sucked I loved it, but others might say it's corny and weird and oh my .. a bug person lol! This is true though! Mostly.

I agree about season one but the show was jsut getting its legs under it, the quote that you have above was in about the series as a whole. I just don't understand how anyone could say Buffy didn't have a storyline? I duno maybe I'm on my own with this...

Edit:

Thanks Pal!! I was getting worried!!

[Nabila]

The only reason I can think of that will put people off from watching Buffy at all is the title itself. A lot of "mature adults" I know cited this as a reason. They never got past that title, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and seeing in the previews here on TV that the characters were all teenagers. It's a classic case of judging a book by it's cover. How sad for them. Good for us.

Now season 1 is another story. I loved it, but then I started watching Buffy in it's 4th season. Still, I find it enormously entertaining, and I appreciate the age of innocence here for the characters. When you're young, all problems are magnified, hence for Buffy to whine is normal. After all this is eventually why fans fell in love with her. Because she was just a girl who wanted some fun out of life.

I have a 38 year-old friend whom I persuaded to watch the series last year. I gave her S1 to try, and the very next day she was asking for S2. Now she is slowly collecting her own dvds of the show. She's borrowed both my Buffy and Angel dvds 3 times because her teenage daughter and son enjoys them now too.

I think it just depends on the person's outlook in life. Optimistic people look into everything, including choosing shows to watch, and eventually find a treasure.

[Randy Giles]

I think the majority of the first season definitely DOES feel pretty shallow compared to the series as a whole. But the weird thing about Buffy, for me, is, even if you see a "deep" episode, if that's the first episode you've ever seen I think it would be very easy to think it seemed like a silly, shallow show. To me, you don't start seeing it for what it really is until you see a few episodes and really start to get a feel for the characters and everything.

But in season one, at first I don't think any of the characters seem nearly as deep as they became, especially in the pilot, they all seem very...shallow? But by the end of the season, most of all "Prophecy Girl", I think the show had pretty much found itself and proved Buffy was more than a blond tough chick.

[Bangelxx]

I really don't think Buffys shallow at all! But Yes, i can see people thinking S1 was shallow. I agree with MLLamble, Buffys all like "i wanna have fun!" didn't have much depth to it I guess

[Jaded Wolf]

Season 1 is to me a dank season because it is setting up the characters and such but it was still a good start. Then season 2 hits and *BAM!!!* here comes the goodies! I still like season 1 because SMG was pretty cute! ;)

[InsaneMystic]

The only reason I can think of that will put people off from watching Buffy at all is the title itself. A lot of "mature adults" I know cited this as a reason. They never got past that title, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and seeing in the previews here on TV that the characters were all teenagers. It's a classic case of judging a book by it's cover. How sad for them. Good for us.
So true. And the German title really is even worse, if anything ("Buffy - Im Bann der Dämonen", literally: "Buffy - In the Demons' Thrall"). I mean, when I read that title, ages ago, in the TV magazine for the first time, I just went :wtf: ... and still to this day, I can't blame myself for that reaction.

It was only when a friend of mine told me that the show was FAR from the load of cr*p the corny title implied, that I started tuning in... and when I did, I got instantly fixed, even though my first ep seen was the almost universally loathed Inca Mummy Girl. :lmao:

[willow23]

Buffy was shallow(in Season 1). The series was not. Season One lacked the maturity of other seasons, but even then I don't think it was particularly shallow.

[Cangel]

So true. And the German title really is even worse, if anything ("Buffy - Im Bann der Dämonen", literally: "Buffy - In the Demons' Thrall"). I mean, when I read that title, ages ago, in the TV magazine for the first time, I just went :wtf: ... and still to this day, I can't blame myself for that reaction.

It was only when a friend of mine told me that the show was FAR from the load of cr*p the corny title implied, that I started tuning in... and when I did, I got instantly fixed, even though my first ep seen was the almost universally loathed Inca Mummy Girl. :lmao:

Talking about German titles, I think 'Angel - Jäger der Finsternis' (literal translation: Angel - hunter of the darkness) is even worse. Especially because they also used the word 'Jägerin' as a translation of 'slayer'. Oh well, you see why I try to watch as little German TV as possible.

[Vampmogs]

I think it's rather unfair to describe Buffy as "shallow" because she was young and bubbly. I don't think a person necessarily needs to be hardened and worn down to make them less shallow at all. If that's really how the human psyche works, I don't have much hope for the human race. ::huh1::

Buffy describes her shallow period as 'Spordelia' which happened pre-Sunnydale. A girl we saw glimpses of in 'Becoming Part I' and even then Angel could see the heart she had. Before moving to Sunnydale a lot of things had happened to her since then. A lot of which she lists for Giles in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth.' She lost all her friends, her parents divorced, she was kicked out of school and she couldn't tell anyone the truth because it might endanger them. And we later learn in 'Normal Again' that she was actually placed in a mental institution as well (horrible retcon but regrettably canon.) The girl who arrives in Sunnydale isn't shallow one bit, she's been humbled by the events that happened before she moved. If she were shallow she'd have adopted Cordelia's approach instead of turning to social outcasts such as Willow and Xander.

Probably her most shallow moment in that season was when she was more concerned about going on a date with Owen in 'Never Kill A Boy On The First Date' than making sure the Anointed One didn't rise. But Buffy regrets this by the end of the episode, she learnt her lesson and even then Giles concedes she's being too hard on herself.

We also see in 'Prophecy Girl' a young woman who's not one bit 'shallow.' Not many sixteen year old girls, particularly ones who are "shallow," would be willing to sacrifice themselves for her friends and family like Buffy was prepared to do in that episode.

So nope, I wouldn't call Buffy shallow one bit in that season, or in any season for that matter. :)

[Jules]

I agree with Vampmogs, I don't find season 1 shallow at all. You have the show dealing with child abuse (Nightmares and to an extent The Witch), internet dating and the dangers that go along with that (I Robot, You Jane) and the guilt of a child whose parents have gotten divorced (Nightmares). Buffy season one dealt with a lot of hard topics for its first season, they may not have followed a general story arc but it didn't make them any more shallow. To add onto that the characters were dealing with these events at the age of 16.

I thought season 1 was really well done.

[Superstar]

Shallow. Hmmm.

Season 1.
We are presented with a girl who already "took it seriously" and got kicked out of school, feels that her parents divorced because of her, and burned down a school building... twice in the performance of her indentured duties. Plainly put: life-wreck. That those duties were fulfilled when she didn't get the full skinny on the whole slayer biz since her watcher croaked quickly and who never trained her as other slayers had been - they even forgot the handbook!
She's done her bit for Queen and Country and paid her price, or so she thinks.

She comes to a new place, expecting to have left that life behind her (for the most part).
Instead, she finds that not only is that not true but that a new watcher is expecting her but is additionally filled with doom and gloom prophecies in one of the worst possible spots (a Hellmouth).

Most people enter an armed service with a goal of obtaining school funding or whatever.
Few look on it a a preferred choice of lifelong career.
Even fewer still have it forced upon them as a lifelong career.
All of this in peacetime. Imagine wartime.
Buffy slowly learns that it not a choice to *not* be the Slayer and that no way out is foreseeable.
So... she makes the best of it or tries to. Right up until the end, when she sacrifices herself.

As we see in Season 2, Kendra who has literally been trained for this her whole life has her candle snuffed very quickly.
Dopplegangland Buffy is a hardened vet who also gets snuffed pretty quickly when visiting the Hellmouth.
If anything, Season 2 shows us that Season 1 Buffy's more cavalier and contrary attitude towards slaying is what keeps her alive.
"I don't want to die" as opposed to "it's a Slayer's duty".

And in the end, that's precisely what she does - her duty, and dies for it.
But as Giles remarks "I should have known that wouldn't stop you" illustrates that this very contrariness that is being labeled shallow is her greatest strength.

[Buffanator]

I actually started watching Buffy after the show was over. I was home sick one day & flipp'n channels. I settled on a Buffy repeat - it was from Season 5, the episode when Tara got brain-sucked by Glory. I was hooked after that! - lucky me, I was sick for a week! ;) And they were showing 4 episodes of Buffy a day... two at 7/8am and two at 5/6pm, so I got caught up pretty fast. But the deal is, I saw Seasons 5,6,7 before 1-4. I sincerely think that if I had watched Buffy from the beginning... Season 1 first, etc... I might not have kept watching. Season 1 was just... I dunno... a bit boring compared to the other seasons. But of course I love Season 1 (now) because it's part of the 7-year Buffy itch, & ya gotta see it to watch the other 6 seasons. Dig? :D

[white avenger]

Actually, both "Buffy," AND "Angel" are shallow. They're just not as shallow as 98% of what passes for entertainment on the television screen. Joss Whedon as a writer doesn't have the depth of most of literature's great authors, and as a director, he can't hold a candle to giants like Ford, DeMille, or any of the other legendary directors. "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" will never rank with "Gone With The Wind," "Ben Hur," or any of the great classics Hollywood has produced. Sarah isn't a Hepburn or a Bacall, and David will never rank with Heston, Grant, Quinn, or Mature. So what?

The shows were well written, well directed, and the actors, writers, and directors involved with the show were committed and more talented than most of their contemporaries in television. The fact that, years after the shows stopped production, they not only have retain their fans but continue to attract new fans regularly. "Buffy," "Angel," and even "Firefly" may be shallow when compared to the great classics of the film industry, but compared to the likes of "My Name Is Earl," and the current rash of so-called "reality" shows, they rise far above their competition.

Shallow is a relative term. Compared to the competition, they rise high above even the next closest competitor. I'll take the shallow over the dregs any day.

[Fake Shemp]

i dont think she was shallow (she sees what she was like by seeing Cordelia)

"Cordelia was nice... to me."

as she sees how mean she is with willow at the start, and buffy was never like that.

oooh and when buffy hangs with willow at the bronze and spots Giles and tells her she'll be right back, willow says she doesn't have to be but buffy reassures her that she will, tres sweet.

[KhaoticLove]

I personally dont see how Buffy is shallow, but thats my opinion.

[Helga the Viking]

The name is a huge part of the problem- my dad still mocks me for watching "Oh noooo not Fluffy!" But as Joss said, he didn't want any fans who couldn't get passed the name. Secondly, I think the demons/vamps,etc put alot of people off (especially some of the cheesy looking ones!) and many people don't want to watch a show with demons, b/c "thats not real". Of course not, its called suspension of disbelief, or sci-fi/fantasy, or whatever you want to call it. And by extension of not being about "real life", it couldn't possibly be realistic or emotional, etc. And therefore people are quick to pawn it off as "shallow". Ultimately its easier to criticize something you don't understand, and i'd wager the majority of "Buffy is shallow" criticism is coming from people who've not seen more than 3 minutes, like my dad. Plus, you really do have to watch more than one episode to see that its actually extremely deep. Someone mentioned, how can you possibly give depth to characters in 1 ep? Even if you watched the Body first, it'd be moving, but not gutting like it is if you've been watching from the beginning.

Obviously, those of us here who are still posting about a show that ended several years ago, know better. We know that the monsters disguise some very raw, dark and potentially disturbing subject matter! To me, the emotions created in the characters are way more real than in those more "realistic" dramas or glory help us "reality" shows. And not to mention, deliciously funny!