Did Spike seem weaker in S5?

[Lyle]

It's been a couple months since I watched Season 5, so I don't remember every battle that happened, but it always seemed like he wasn't that powerful in this season (not talking about against humans, since he had the chip in, just in terms of strength and fighting other demons).

One of the times I was wondering about is when Spike tries picking up that troll's hammer, which he can't lift even a bit, then a few episodes later Buffy's lifting it with ease. Buffy's obviously stronger, being the Slayer and all, but I always thought stronger vamps (like Spike or Angel) weren't that far behind...

The other thing, and the main reason I made this topic, is when Spike gets beaten by Doc. I mean, Spike's supposed to be this legendary vampire, one of the best, and in Season 6 he takes out demon after demon during the demon trial thing. Was there any reason other than it being necessary for the plot for Spike to lose to Doc without putting up much of a fight? Doc couldn't have been that powerful, Buffy doesn't even break a nail against him.

I realize the easy answer for both those examples is that it had to be done for story reasons. I'm just wondering if anyone has any other explanations for the whole situation.

[Blondie Bear]

Well, this is the season where Buffy began to do some really hardcore Slayer training. Maybe that has something to do with it. And (theoretically), vampires wouldn't be able to get physically stronger because their muscle cells wouldn't be changeable. They'd be stuck in the physical shape they were in when they died, plus the mystical extra demon strength. Working out wouldn't help them at all.

[Tranquillity]

Lyle, you raise some interesting points. the troll hammer was a bit silly - they'd never shown there to be that much difference in strenght between Buffy and Spike or Angel, her advantage came from having a purpose to what she was doing that because it was greater than evil, made her superior (if you get what i'm trying to say) so when Spike couldn't even lift the hammer it was a bit inconsistant. As to the fight with Doc i find this a bit more understandable - i interpret it as Spike, getting up to the top of the tower and faced with the sight of doc and dawn, overthinking the situation. He is an instinctual fighter and until that point mostly fought for the thrill of the fight and then he see Dawn, who he truely loves, in peril and he pushes instinct aside and tries to think too much as to how he will save her without endangering her so this gives Doc the advantage. When buffy arrives, she is used to fighting for a purpose she sees Doc (who she's never even seen before) as an obstical in her way so simply gets rid of the obstical.

[Lyle]

Hmm yeah that all makes sense. Thanks for explaining. One more idea I just thought of, which kinda goes back to the fighting on instinct idea a bit, is that maybe Spike got a little soft after he got the chip in his head. He starts spending a lot more time around the Scoobies, who take care of him, and he only fights the occasional demon. He gets a little domesticated, if that makes sense, kind of like turning a wild dog into a house pet. He can still fight, but he doesn't have as much of a killer instinct. That combined with the pressure of having to save Dawn is probably what does it when he fight's Doc.

Thanks for the replies :)

[Keanoite]

Mmmm Lyle makes alot of sense but maybe it's something to do with Buffy herself. It's just my own crazy theory but when Angel left Sunnydale and went to L.A. did anyone else notice how much better a fighter he became? It could be explained that he had alot of time to train but he could do that in Sunnydale too. In 'Chosen' Caleb knocks him clean out, how many times has that happend to him before? While Buffy can get slapped around by Caleb for awhile and still manage to make julienne preacher. Maybe there is something about Buffy other than being a slayer that weakens vampires that are around her? I mean there must be a reason more than her friends that she lasted so long? Like she has a little vamp kryptonite running throw her?

[Lyle]

Well I haven't really seen much of Angel yet (I'm getting through all of Buffy first, then I'm gonna try to move on to that) but I do agree that it could be about Buffy as well.

My theory is that while both Angel and Spike are powerful fighters, they're more powerful on their own or when they're the strongest on their team, as opposed to when they're a part of Buffy's group and have to play second fiddle to her. When they're with Buffy, they don't really have to go all out and they're only there for back up. Buffy's the one whose fighting the biggest toughest bad guys, gaining the most strength.

Without Buffy, Angel and Spike both become the strongest physical fighters on their teams, so they're taking on the big bads, and they have more of a responsibility to go all out. An example would be Spike in "The Bargaining" and during his demon trials, and I'm sure there's plenty of examples for Angel in ATS.

I love discussions, in case anyone couldn't tell.

[Keanoite]

Like its a psycological thing? They know they are not required to be the strongest with Buffy around so they aren't. It makes sense.

[Lyle]

Exactly. They coast a bit with Buffy around.

[Keanoite]

I think that may be it because it clearly isn't a slayer thing. Spike killed two and Angel has handed Faith her arse to her a couple of times.

[Joyce Summers]

I think maybe we see Angel and Spike as stronger when they're on their own because we don't have Buffy to compare them to. We all know, as it's been stated throughout the series, that the Slayer, therefore Buffy, is stronger than any vampire. It's just technique and chance that can sometimes have her beaten (such as in Fool for Love). But she is stronger. Spike and Angel are extremely strong- being the two worst vamps ever- but when next to Buffy we get given the comparison of how Buffy is strongest and that's why they seem weaker. I'm rambling too much ehre and maybe I no make a sensey. hehe, but i hope you get what i'm saying. Neither are weaker around Buffy it's just the comparison between her and them that makes it seem so. Ya get me?
And as for the argument that Spike killed two Slayers and Angel's kicked Faith's ass more than once I would have to say the reasoning behind this is they are not as good a slayer as Buffy. I mean Faith's good and all, but she lacks the direction and focus Buffy has which always seems to be her downfall.

[Keanoite]

I think maybe we see Angel and Spike as stronger when they're on their own because we don't have Buffy to compare them to. We all know, as it's been stated throughout the series, that the Slayer, therefore Buffy, is stronger than any vampire. It's just technique and chance that can sometimes have her beaten (such as in Fool for Love). But she is stronger. Spike and Angel are extremely strong- being the two worst vamps ever- but when next to Buffy we get given the comparison of how Buffy is strongest and that's why they seem weaker. I'm rambling too much ehre and maybe I no make a sensey. hehe, but i hope you get what i'm saying. Neither are weaker around Buffy it's just the comparison between her and them that makes it seem so. Ya get me?
And as for the argument that Spike killed two Slayers and Angel's kicked Faith's ass more than once I would have to say the reasoning behind this is they are not as good a slayer as Buffy. I mean Faith's good and all, but she lacks the direction and focus Buffy has which always seems to be her downfall.

Your totally making sense. Ok I hate to be all post-structuralist here but Spike and Angel as we know them are defined in relation to Buffy. It's not a conscious thing but in some ways we are able to identify them because of how they differentiate from Buffy. Ok I am not making sense!! Its like if you were asked to define a dog one way would be to describe it as not a cat! while it is not a full description it is completely true. The same is applied to Spike and Angel, if you were asked to define them one answer would be weaker than Buffy. Not a full description but completely true and a way to recognise who and what they are.

Did that make sense to anyone?

[Joyce Summers]

Yeah, I think I get what you mean. Like in one aspect Spike and Angel are basically weaker than Buffy, but you can look at them from other angles as well. In which cases they may come out looking stronger, or being better at a certain something or whatever. Is that right?If that's not what what you were trying to say, please feel free to call me insane

[Keanoite]

no thats it!! I'm actually really surprised any sense came out of that ramble!

[Joyce Summers]

Oh, yay. Well, obviously it did. Haha. and after all, there is much value to be had from a good ramble ;-)hehe

[Keanoite]

hahaha knew you would say that!!

[Blondie Bear]

Poststructuralism is generally confusing, so you didn't do too bad. :)

[white avenger]

Several items have been covered here, and I have a theory on each, so here goes:

1) The Troll Hammer--The fact that Spike could not lift it at all while Buffy easily could probably be explained more easily if we consider it as an enchanted hammer that only its owner could wield (think of Thor's hammer in the Marvel comics. Only Thor can lift it). Spike couldn't lift it because he wasn't Olaf. Buffy, on the other hand, could lift it because she had vanquished Olaf and had, in doing so, inherited the hammer and the ability to lift and use it. (Its physical weight couldn't have been all that great, because it was setting on a glass display shelf in the Magic Box, which gives rise to the question of just how they got it up there in the first place if it was so heavy)

2) Slayer Strength vs Vampire Strength--Angel once made the statement that Buffy was stronger than him. Other than that, no real comparison was ever made except Luke's statement in "Welcome To The Hellmouth," when he said, "You're strong. I'M STRONGER." Obviously the Slayer isn't stronger than EVERY vampire, and it was never stated anywhere that vampire strength is relative to physical size. Spike could be as strong as, or even stronger than, Buffy. Certainly she never decisively beat him in a fight, though she did beat Angel when he was Angelus. Does that mean that Spike is stronger than Angel? Maybe yes, maybe no. Nothing was ever established on either show.

3) Spike vs Doc--Doc beat Spike for the simple reasons that Spike underestimated the much less dangerous seeming demon, plus the fact that on the relatively narrow catwalk there was no room for him to move around as was his strong point in a fight.

[white avenger]

Regarding the Troll Hammer in my previous post: yes, BB, you're right, it was on a metal shelf of some sort, but the rest of the argument would still stand. Neither Spike nor anyone else except Buffy could lift the hammer, but it was due to its enchantment, not its actual physical weight. That would also explain why the hammer could hurt Glory. Olaf obviously was NOT a god, so in order for the hammer to be the "weapon of a god" as Anya referred to it, it had to be someone else's before Olaf came into possession of it (maybe it WAS Thor's hammer. We'll probably never know). It was its devine enchantment that allowed the hammer to hurt Glory. Its weight had nothing to do with it.

[sosa lola]

When characters are evil, they come out too strong, but when they side with heroes they lose part of their cool and strength. It's always like that in all the shows.

[Kana]

I think perhaps Buffy is physically stronger than Spike and Angel but brute strength is only on part of combat. There is also skill, experience, ability to adapt and of course: luck! As for the hammer thing...I'm sure there were people who could bench more than Bruce Lee but if they went up against him in a fight then they may not fair as well. It's possible that Buffy is much stronger than Spike and Angel but not that much of a better fighter. As for Doc as it was said, it would be like Buffy getting skewered by the 80s vamp in FFL and then Spike or Angel easily dusting him. I mean didn't Riley kill the vamp pretty easily?

[Werewolf]

well in tearms of spike being the "big bad" he get's softer when he falls in love with buffy..

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

Just chiming in about that Spike/Doc face off... who else thought it was SO lame? It was like Spike didnt even try, or i dunno, maybe they just didnt have time in the episode to include a longer fight scene but it seemed SO cheap to me. Everytime isee that part it aggravates me.

[palabravampiress]

Several items have been covered here, and I have a theory on each, so here goes:

1) The Troll Hammer--The fact that Spike could not lift it at all while Buffy easily could probably be explained more easily if we consider it as an enchanted hammer that only its owner could wield (think of Thor's hammer in the Marvel comics. Only Thor can lift it). Spike couldn't lift it because he wasn't Olaf. Buffy, on the other hand, could lift it because she had vanquished Olaf and had, in doing so, inherited the hammer and the ability to lift and use it. (Its physical weight couldn't have been all that great, because it was setting on a glass display shelf in the Magic Box, which gives rise to the question of just how they got it up there in the first place if it was so heavy)

2) Slayer Strength vs Vampire Strength--Angel once made the statement that Buffy was stronger than him. Other than that, no real comparison was ever made except Luke's statement in "Welcome To The Hellmouth," when he said, "You're strong. I'M STRONGER." Obviously the Slayer isn't stronger than EVERY vampire, and it was never stated anywhere that vampire strength is relative to physical size. Spike could be as strong as, or even stronger than, Buffy. Certainly she never decisively beat him in a fight, though she did beat Angel when he was Angelus. Does that mean that Spike is stronger than Angel? Maybe yes, maybe no. Nothing was ever established on either show.

3) Spike vs Doc--Doc beat Spike for the simple reasons that Spike underestimated the much less dangerous seeming demon, plus the fact that on the relatively narrow catwalk there was no room for him to move around as was his strong point in a fight.

Wait - between Spike and Angel, we do get a decisive answer over who's stronger. In AtS season 5, Spike beats the bejesus out of Angel once and for all. The ONLY time Angel can take Spike is when he's a puppet, and that's because Spike's laughing the whole time. lol. Also, in season 1, Spike was able to capture Angel in order to have him tortured. I was always under the impression that in direct hand-to-hand combat, Spike was the stronger of the two. When it came to strategy and finesse, Angel(us) won hands down. Didn't they go over that in their flashback in FFL, too? Angel(us) complained that Spike always took unnecessary risks or something and Spike acted surprised that his old grandsire didn't like to feel the rush. Also, Spike took down two slayers. Angel(us) avoided slayers. I always thought that was part of their power dynamic issue: Angel(us) felt the need to put Spike in his place and to go for the more artistic kills because he felt threatened by Spike.

As far as Buffy goes, well, I always thought the slayer was supposed to be stronger than just about any vampire. She's supposed to be able to take on nests and gangs of vampires and stop the nearest impending apocalypse and stuff. That said, I agree with the theory about the enchanted hammer and about how Spike and Angel look weak when they're compared to Buffy. They're stronger than pretty much everything else out there, but they're not stronger than the slayer. Spike and Angel have centuries of experience plus a huge size advantage on nearly any slayer. That's why older, more experienced vamps like them are able to knock her around so much more than fledglings. But she still escapes even their worst bouts with nary a mark, while they both usually come away from fights with her severely injured or more dead than usual. I mean, Spike got his scar from a slayer. He also got bruises from Buffy. And he was paralyzed. Only Glory (a God) and the First's uber vamp were able to hurt him more than Buffy could, and who's to say what she could/would have done if she'd had torture on the brain rather than killing? With Angel(us), Buffy held back more, but he was eventually out-and-out killed by her. Besides, didn't Spike already explain why he was able to kill two slayers? They had a death wish. The same certainly applies to Faith when Angel beat her. The first time, the fight even ended with her asking him to end it. The second time, when he was Angelus, she was deliberately holding back because she didn't want to kill Angelus; she wanted to bring Angel back. So, no; I don't think Spike was weaker in season 5. I think he just looked that way in comparison to the freakin' slayer, who is supposed to be the big kahuna in the demon world.

As for the doc thing... I always thought that was lame. I really think they just didn't have enough time in the episode for Spike to have a knock-down drag-out with tongue guy.

[Jaded Wolf]

Hmm yeah that all makes sense. Thanks for explaining. One more idea I just thought of, which kinda goes back to the fighting on instinct idea a bit, is that maybe Spike got a little soft after he got the chip in his head. He starts spending a lot more time around the Scoobies, who take care of him, and he only fights the occasional demon. He gets a little domesticated, if that makes sense, kind of like turning a wild dog into a house pet. He can still fight, but he doesn't have as much of a killer instinct. That combined with the pressure of having to save Dawn is probably what does it when he fight's Doc.

Thanks for the replies :)

Like I mentioned before Spike got neutered. It was one of the downpoints of the Spike character but we did get some funny moments with Spike tied up in the chair trading quips with Xander and it led to Spike getting his soul back. I still liked Spike in Season 2 but I also liked him in Season 7 as he got used to his soul. My favorite episode was where Spike faced off against Principal Woods and beat the tar out of him. Spike then tells Buffy if Wood even looks at him funny Spike will kill him. That was when the classic Spike came back, soul, champion and all.

[Tranquillity]

As for the doc thing... I always thought that was lame. I really think they just didn't have enough time in the episode for Spike to have a knock-down drag-out with tongue guy.

also, not really his time to become the hero just yet - so he had to be defeated.

[white avenger]

Beginning in Season 5, Spike began living on a steady diet of animal blood. That might have weakened him until his metabolism adjusted to the difference. Also, from Season 5 on, he wasn't as much the predator as he had been in the past, getting most of his action by helping Buffy and the gang stake fledglings (formidable, certainly, but hardly much of a challenge for a fighter like Spike), with only the occasional demon tossed in for variety. He might simply have gotten sloppy from not having to face any real challenge. Supporting that last is the statement Spike made to Angel in Season 5 that working with Illyria was sharpening techniques he didn't even know were rusty.

Spike is, if nothing else, a consummate warrior. He thrives on challenge and conflict, as we have seen many times in the past, most notably with his killing of two Slayers, the first when he was a rather inexperienced fighter. The tougher the opponent, the better he likes it, and the more dangerous he becomes. That is one of the things he has in common with Buffy, one of the reasons they are so well matched (no, I'm not speaking about a Spuffy thing here, I'm talking about two fighters). Angel was never her equal. By his own admission and as we saw more than once, Buffy could beat him anytime she wanted to. In fact the only real opponent either Buffy or Spike ever had, the only one either ever went toe to toe, face to face with and never decisively beat was each other.