"No, you don't; but thanks for sayin' it."

[palabravampiress]

I'm surprised I didn't see a thread on this already.

No, you don't; but thanks for sayin' it.

We all know the line (although I typed it from memory, so I might be paraphrasing). The question is: why didn't Spike believe that Buffy loved him? Why did he, on his "deathbed" (such that it was), feel the need to refute Buffy's avowal of her feelings for him?

I have a few ideas of my own, but I'd rather wait and see what some other people think. Frankly, my ideas are not at all fixed in my mind. I can't yet commit to one or another, so I'm looking for someone to convince me!

[JollyApe]

Cause he's never been one to beat around the bush. He told the truth even in the face of death. It was just who he was.

[MarzipanPiePlate]

It was his Sydney Carton moment, right? Tale of Two Cities. "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known." Sacrifice, redemption, all that jazz. Really the only way he can redeem himself and truly make up for everything he's done to Buffy...is to die for her.

[white avenger]

One of the most popular theories on this is that Spike was trying to get Buffy out of the collapsing hellmouth safely, and he knew that if he said something like "...and I'll always love you, no matter what hell I find myself banished to," she would either have stayed and died with him, or tried to drag him away from what he knew had to be done.

My own theory is that she had spent so much time telling him that she could never love him or ever be his girl that he was completely shocked by her statement, so shocked that at that moment he couldn't bring himself to believe what she said. It was only moments later, when he had sent Buffy to safety that her words finally sunk in, causing him to burst out laughing in joy even as he was being burned to ashes. That's why his first thought was of Buffy when he re-materialized in Angel's office.

[Keanoite]

Maybe cuz the night before he had just watched her 'Bask' in Angelness and heard her as good as promise his grandsire that someday she would return to him. How could he believe her after that?

[Tranquillity]

Pala, i too have many and varied takes on this cryptic sentence and my views have changed a lot over the years. At the moment i'm leaning in this direction:
For me i think it is that Spike after recovering his soul had to work through a lot of guilt and shame and remorse about what he did in the past as an evil killer. He dosen't think very much of himself and at one point says he hates himself. But Buffy helps him begin to rebuild his self belief and show him that he can be a good man. And he makes progress - a lot of progress but by the time the finale comes around he's not at the point where he can accept that the woman of his dreams might possibly love him in return. Sure, it's what he wants more than anything in the world but when it's offered to him he dosen't think himself worthy to take it so rejects it.

[MarzipanPiePlate]

I agree with Tranquillity. The only thing I would add, though, is that Spike is right. Buffy, truly, deep down, does NOT love him. At least, not the way she loves Angel, not even the way she loved Riley. Spike has a true glimpse of the truth at that moment...and he accepts it, and *still* sacrifices himself for Buffy. Sure, this reading is not as romantic as other possible ones--BUT, it actually makes Spike's gesture here that much more heroic. To give his life for a woman that he knows does not truly love him...that's genuine redemption. It makes his own love for Buffy that much more selfless, too: he's not doing this for a reward...he's not trying to win Buffy's love...he does it because *he* loves *her*. Okay, okay, it's kind of Kantian--but still: Spike the ravenous killer, suddenly living up to some high moral command--it's beautiful, no?

[Keanoite]

I agree with Tranquillity. The only thing I would add, though, is that Spike is right. Buffy, truly, deep down, does NOT love him. At least, not the way she loves Angel, not even the way she loved Riley. Spike has a true glimpse of the truth at that moment...and he accepts it, and *still* sacrifices himself for Buffy. Sure, this reading is not as romantic as other possible ones--BUT, it actually makes Spike's gesture here that much more heroic. To give his life for a woman that he knows does not truly love him...that's genuine redemption. It makes his own love for Buffy that much more selfless, too: he's not doing this for a reward...he's not trying to win Buffy's love...he does it because *he* loves *her*. Okay, okay, it's kind of Kantian--but still: Spike the ravenous killer, suddenly living up to some high moral command--it's beautiful, no?

I suppose The Slayer Killer dying for THE SlAYER doesn't lack poetry...but I'm admitting it grudgingly!!

[calicott]

Because as someone else said, Spike always tells it like it is. It was the perfect line imo.

[palabravampiress]

Well, I thought is was presumptuous and made him look like an ass. lol. I mean, really! Buffy spends like 2 years trying to work up the courage to say "I love you" to Spike. When she finally does, he rejects it? Ugh! I know he was sort of on fire and whatnot, but really, couldn't he have just let her get that off her chest?

If I told someone I loved him and he rejected my declaration, I'd be upset. He called her a liar with his dying breath!

[~angelic slayer~]

I have to agree with JollyApe... he said it simply because it was true.

I really believe that Buffy did begin to have a close friendship with Spike by the end of the series, and they were close in a way that I don't think she ever was with the scoobies... but not nessesarily romantic, you know? He loved her in a romantic way and he knew that she didn't feel the same, heck they both did. Her confessing her love for him would have been exactly what he wanted to hear, what he'd been wanting to hear for years and before he died Buffy wanted to give him the one thing that she knew would mean the world to him. But he was never the type to let himself believe a lie, and I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted to die trying to convince himself of something like that (of a false proclaimation of love, especially when love was something he had always held so dear).

And even if Buffy did truly believe what she was saying, he knew her I think almost better than she knew herself (and he's always been a really insightful character in general, to top it off) and I really don't think he'd want her believing that she loved him if he knew in his heart that she didn't. For him that wouldn't be something he'd want to die with, I think. I'd expect he'd want to die with a clean slate; no lies, no coverups, no false praises to make him feel better. He knew he was going to die and he would have darn well done it with his pride intact.

He once said "I might be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it", and I think that's the attitude he had right up until the end. He's always been a sucker for love but he's also always had the guts to tell a situation just like it is.

I think the line was really a fine balance; he was honest and quite blunt ("No, you don't") but also wasn't afraid to admit that it was a nice thing to really hear before he died ("...but thanks for sayin' it"). Maybe in that moment he saw that she really did care about him, and that was enough for him.

Just my thoughts on it, anyway.

[Blondie Bear]

I think someone in another thread theorized that it was to keep the whole scene from turning into a big mush fest.

[Keanoite]

Well, I thought is was presumptuous and made him look like an ass. lol. I mean, really! Buffy spends like 2 years trying to work up the courage to say "I love you" to Spike. When she finally does, he rejects it?

In fairness she was hardly working up to say it to him for two years! Her affection for Spike really only began to grow once he had his soul.

In the commentary for this ep Joss said that Sarah and James had a real problem nailing that scene. They were playing more on the fact that the place was caving in then on the epic romance, so they didn't quite get it either. Basically he said that in that split second when she says she loves him she means it and that when Spike says she doesn't he [Joss] wanted him [Spike] to love her too.

[white avenger]

In fairness she was hardly working up to say it to him for two years! Her affection for Spike really only began to grow once he had his soul.

In the commentary for this ep Joss said that Sarah and James had a real problem nailing that scene. They were playing more on the fact that the place was caving in then on the epic romance, so they didn't quite get it either. Basically he said that in that split second when she says she loves him she means it and that when Spike says she doesn't he [Joss] wanted him [Spike] to love her too.

In one interview, Joss said that he told them to, "Play it like you love each other." I think that. sadly, Buffy had said far too many times that she did not and could not love Spike that he felt it difficult to believe her at this point, as much as he would have liked to. It was a case of pi** poor timing on Buffy's part. She should have said it the night before (maybe she did in the throes of passion, and again, Spike just never believed her then, either.) I prefer to believe that she meant it with all her heart, and that later, after the adrenaline rush of battle had faded, she went quietly and thoroughly to pieces when what he said in those last moments finally sank in. That would fit in with her Season 8 statement about "missing that sex," if THAT sex were not generic, but sex with a particular person. A self imposed celibacy as a way of mourning a lost lover might be Buffy's way of dealing with the situation. Certainly she wasn't particularly quick about jumping back into the saddle at the loss of either of her previous lovers, even Parker.

I can accept (believe it or not, Miss K) the fact that Spike might not be the love of Buffy's life; I can just as easily accept that the true love of her life is still somewhere over the horizon, and we won't see him finally revealed until the end of Season 25. I can just as easily accept that, like all truly tragic heroes, our favorite Slayer may NEVER have a true lasting love.

The one thing that I do know for sure is that Spike loved Buffy, loved her so much that he was willing to die to see that she was safe, loved her so much that he would continue to allow her to believe that he was dead because he, like Angel, would have to ultimately feel that Buffy deserved more than a monster to love, whether that monster used bleach on his hair or wore lifts in his shoes.

Oh, and one other thing I know. As long as the question is never truly and once and for all answered, loyal shippers like myself and Miss K can look forward to many stimulating debates over which blood sucking fiend Buffy really belongs with.

[Kemy]

Like always Spike just pointed out the reality of things whether Buffy wanted to hear it or not, she may have wanted him to have a happier ending or something, but she didn't love him. But just to hear her say it, Spike was made just that bit happier, meeting death with his usual flippant manner.

I never got the Spuffy thing, didn't really much care about whether they loved each other the first time around but in subsequent viewings it looks to be more of a comfort thing, not love. Just a mutual dependence of affection as Giles pointed out.

[palabravampiress]

Like always Spike just pointed out the reality of things whether Buffy wanted to hear it or not, she may have wanted him to have a happier ending or something, but she didn't love him. But just to hear her say it, Spike was made just that bit happier, meeting death with his usual flippant manner.

I never got the Spuffy thing, didn't really much care about whether they loved each other the first time around but in subsequent viewings it looks to be more of a comfort thing, not love. Just a mutual dependence of affection as Giles pointed out.

But that can turn to love. Comfort, friendship, mutual affection... what is love if not those things + sex?

Oh, and white avenger:

Why didn't Spike go back for her? I don't think it was because he thought Buffy deserved better. If he was doing the making-decisions-for-her-own-good thing, well, then he and I are done! I hate that thing! lol.

Anyway, when he was talking to Andrew right before the crazy slayer cut off his hands, I thought he said it was because he was sort of being a chicken over how to say, "Honey, I'm home!" He didn't want Andrew to tell her. He didn't want anyone to do it but him. He said he had every intention of doing it himself, he just needed to figure out how. And then the apocalypse hit, so he was sort of busy with that. I figure that once Joss manages to finagle the rights so that the Angel characters and the Buffy characters can interact again, that whole "Spike's alive" moment will be included. I mean, an army of slayers is sort of needed when a huge city like LA gets sucked into Hell.

[Keanoite]

Ok before I say anything else I want to establish something incase it has gone unnoticed...*sniggers*. I Keanoite am a B/A shipper. I honestly believe that Angel is the love of Buffy's life and vice versa, doesn't matter who comes along, all roads lead back to Bangel. As Buffy herself says about Angel 'I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life'. Personally I think they make Romeo and Juliet look like Britney and K Fed. I am a total cynic but they make me believe in soulmates.

On saying all of that, I also believe that they are capable of loving others too. Never on the level they felt for each other but who is anyone to turn away from love of any kind? The more I watch Buffy and Spike together the more I see the comfort they brought to each other. To argue that they didn't seems childish. In the the two nights before the final battle Buffy and Spike created the first tangible bond of their entire relationship. To say they were more intimate because of how much sex they had is stupid. Sex can be one of the most impersonal experiences of your life and what we saw of Spike and Buffy it was the LEAST intimate stage in their relationship. That's why the night Spike held her in his arms was the best night of his life, cuz it was real, there was heart in it. For these reasons I think she meant it as much as she possibly could. She loved him. As much as she did Angel? No. But that doesn't happen twice, hell it hardly ever happens at all and really does it matter?

As for why Spike says she didn't I think there is a couple of plausible scenarios.1. He saw how she reacted to Angel when she Killed Caleb. She had just told him that they had something real and then she's locking lips with McBroody (can't really blame her :)) and promising some maybe future together. She got this look in her eyes that we hadn't sen since pre- Surprise. To say he was getting mixed signals is an understatement. 2. He may have thought that she was just saying it because of the moment that was in it, she could say those words and not have to deal with what they really meant. and 3. He didn't want her to love him. She finally said it but it was too late to enjoy it, to know what it's like to be loved by her. Not exactly a comfort when your burning from the inside out., more a reminder of what he was giving up.

[Kimz]

i dunno why he said this tbh...i have a few theories...but im not gonna reel em off haha....

and jst to go a little of subject does anyone notice when buffy is about to go on her date with principal wood...willow says something about its good that your moving on....

and buffy says ''omg, why does everyone in this house think im still in LOVE with spike???''

she jst admits it then n there right lol :P

jst a theory haha...maybe she did love him afterall

x

[Veyron]

I've posted a smiliar answer elsewhere on the board and I think it's safe to post something along the same lines here too.

I think in the moment that she said it, she did love him, because he was making the final sacrifice - himself.

He'd been fawning about her for a while and sure, whilst they'd been at each others throats figuratively and literally on more than one occasion, Spike knew deep down that Buffy only had eyes for Angel.

If, instead of walking off at the end of the crypt scene where Caleb is killed he'd of waited about to see what what said and done, he'd of realised that things between Angel and Buffy could never, ever go back to the way they were in S3. It would be far too dangerous for either of them to allow Angelus to re-emerge; after all - when you see the bad side of someone, whether it's their fault or not and you come out of the other side as intact as you can be considering what's been done to you and your friends, it's not something you tend to want to have a repeat performance of. Well, not unless you're a sadist or a glutton for punishment.

[Fake Shemp]

yeah i posted it on the other thread for buffy loving spike.... the quote from 'First Date'

[ItMustBeBunnies]

Ive got a few theories on this topic, but they all kinda run together!. I think buffy really meant it when she said I love you, and when spike said no you dont, I think it was because he was so use to her telling him she never would that he couldn't accept it. Ive got a few problems with him sticking around in Angel season 5, I get why he did, but I think he would be more inclined to go off and look for Buffy rather than hang around with angel, it was just the writters tring to justify him being there. Still, im glad he did stay coz Spike and Angel together is awsome!.

[white avenger]

Ive got a few problems with him sticking around in Angel season 5, I get why he did, but I think he would be more inclined to go off and look for Buffy rather than hang around with angel, it was just the writters tring to justify him being there. Still, im glad he did stay coz Spike and Angel together is awsome!.

Yeah, undoubtedly, Spike's reasons for staying with Angel, not even trying to get in touch with Buffy, and then even forbidding Andrew to tell her were totally out of character and poorly thought/written out by the writers and Joss. The real reason, of course, was that James was signed on as a regular on "Angel," at least for Season 5, and he had to stay there. I just wish that they could have come up with a more believable reason in keeping with Spike's personality.

[Buffanator]

Would have been cool if Spike went to find/be with Buffy, and Buffy ASKED HIM to stay in L.A. & "keep an eye on Angel" because she/Giles believed that Angel was fighting on the side of evil, now.... and of course, Spike would have done what Buffy asked him to do... THAT would have made more sense than Spike not even TRYING to contact Buffy. Doncha think?

At any rate, my take on the "line" is that Buffy DID ABSOLUTELY mean it when she told Spike she loved him - she knew he was about to die "for the cause" & she didn't want him to die without knowing how she felt.

In turn, Spike said "no you don't, but thanks for saying it" because he knew she would try to talk him out of completing that death-task if he said "I love you too". Even as it was, he had to tell her to "GO!" because she was just standing there with tears in her eyes, & she only had a minute to get out of there.

HOWEVER, I think the perfect line for Spike at that time would have been "NOW you tell me!" or maybe even "took you long enough, Slayer" or something more *Spike-like*, ya know? I was never thrilled with that line. Buffy FINALLY told him, & it was like, the most IMPORTANT MOMENT EVER (well, at least for us Spuffy shippers!) & whad'we get? "no you don't, but thanks for sayin' it." :rolleyes:

And yet, I still love that scene. :love:

[raine4rose]

I do agree...
If Spike didnt tell No, you dont then it would not remain on our heads and no topic for it...
Wish they could meet... sooner

[Ulrikke]

I always thought that the 'No you don't, but thanks for saying it' line was Spike's way of letting Buffy off the hook, so to speak. Thinking that he was going to die and never come back, he didn't want her to pine after him and never see other people once he was gone.

Anyway, that's what I think. More to the point, it's what I WANT to think. Otherwise it's just rude and so not the time to argue. And there was no doubt in MY mind that Buffy meant what she said.

[pernilleborup]

My own theory is that she had spent so much time telling him that she could never love him or ever be his girl that he was completely shocked by her statement, so shocked that at that moment he couldn't bring himself to believe what she said. It was only moments later, when he had sent Buffy to safety that her words finally sunk in, causing him to burst out laughing in joy even as he was being burned to ashes. That's why his first thought was of Buffy when he re-materialized in Angel's office.

I have the same theory. :)

I was totally weeping when Spike died! She finally told him she loved him(cos she totally did!) and then he dies... What a bummer!

[white avenger]

[QUOTE=Keanoite;465716]
She got this look in her eyes that we hadn't sen since pre- Surprise.

Speaking of "looks in her eyes," let's not forget the end of "Showtime," and the "I don't know what I would have done if you had gone up those stairs" and "I love you" scenes in Chosen.

And let's not forget that, in all of their time together, Buffy and Angel were never so hot together that their hands burst into flame just at the touch (and no, before anyone says it, that happened BEFORE Spike started burning, and also it was the mystical "no pain, no blistering" sort of flame.)

[EveryNiteISaveU]

Yeah, undoubtedly, Spike's reasons for staying with Angel, not even trying to get in touch with Buffy, and then even forbidding Andrew to tell her were totally out of character and poorly thought/written out by the writers and Joss. The real reason, of course, was that James was signed on as a regular on "Angel," at least for Season 5, and he had to stay there. I just wish that they could have come up with a more believable reason in keeping with Spike's personality.


Yea, i agree. They could have totally had her try to coorespond with Buffy w/o having her on the show. I mean, they faked it during that dream sequence in season 5 when Angel's hallucinating and Spike is having sex w/ "buffy"...they could have easily written it in better...

[hannahfngrl26]

I am going to weigh in and say that he decided to say these words because he knows in his heart that Buffy can only ever truly love one man and that man is not him. Or maybe he said it because he just has always had a self-defeating attitude and is a pessimist?