Shanshu, who?

[Kana]

Ok I found this thread but couldn't reply to it, so I hope people don't mind if I start a new one.

This came off the back of the latest Angel vs Spike thread (so fun) but I was wondering what were people's thoughts on the shanshu prophecy. That is: who do you think deserved it, do you think it was an interesting plot line, did Angel actually sign away his prophecy? Here are my thoughts:

Common arguments and points of discussion

It's Angel show, so he must be the one

I don't like outside show arguments. I believe in using what's in the show as evidence or indeed support for one's arguments

Jasmine said that Angel is the one in the Prophecy, so he's got to be the one

Jasmine also said she was going to wipe out humanity because of what Angel's done. But he didn't and was killed. So clearly she didn't know everything.

The PTBs chose Angel as their champion

And who said that Shanshuing has anything to do with the PTBs?

A ha! Lindsay said that the prophecy told of the vampire's links being cut off to the PTBs. This happened in To Shanshu in LA. That proves Angel is the one.

Apart from the fact that it wasn't completely cut off. Cordelia was saved and for one Angel has what believes is a one shot deal but this is uncertain. Events certainly didn't happen the way Lindsay expected.

The House Always Wins! This has to prove it!!!!!They said that Angel would be a player in the apocalypse and Spike was soulled at the time too!!!So that settles it.

Ok this is one of the better arguments for Angel's candidacy however, it's unclear if a) destiny can be stolen or indeed signed away but we'll look at that later and b) whether the information they got was specific in the sense that Angel was the soulled vampire in the prophecy. It's a possibility that they discovered he is a soulled vampire assumed that he was the one, or it could be that Spike and Angel will both play big parts in the apocalypse. So if you look it this way if you got either vamps destiny card it would say that they are soulled vampires who are going to play a role however this doesn't mean that the other respectively will Shanshu. Ha, squashed that!

Angel signed away his prophecy, HIS!

This was a common argument in the champion thread. This raises the question of whether a destiny can be signed away or given away. Your Destiny is Your Destiny isn't it? Can it really be changed?

I'll raise the question in another thread on what exactly Lorne reads but if Destiny is fixed in a Cassie Newton kind of way, then surely it doesn't matter if you try and sign it away.

If this is true then either:
a)COTBT didn't know this which seems unlikely or
b) They were focusing on Angel's willingness to give up hope in his humanity.

In any event, what Angel was signing away was his claim to the destiny. If you think of like this: The initial argument in bold supposes that it's Angel's to give away. It's like he owns it and if he signs it away he's giving it to Spike, handing it over if you will. I see it more like both vamps grabbing it at the same time and are tugging away at it. Angel signing it away is like his letting go of it. Get me? So it was never HIS to give up as such, he was giving up equal claim. Of course that's if signing it away actually does anything.

This may seem like I'm siding with Spike or Spike fans but I suppose I have vested interests in the ambiguity and also Angel being a self defined hero rather than a prophecy poster child...

[palabravampiress]

Your arguments are interesting. The tug-of-war thing got me thinking, though: what if another vamp becomes ensouled?

All Sanshu stuff assumes Angel and Spike, so people deal with those biases. We discuss character flaws and all sorts of things like that.

But what if Willow botched up a spell and Spike and Angel went all soulless? While our heroes were trying to rein in our terrible twosome, two unnamed, unknown fledgling vamps got their souls. So now we've got the same prophecy, but two different vamps with souls. We know nothing about these two vamps except that one signs up with the black thorn and signs away the prophecy.

Now that our feelings about Angel and Spike are off the table, how do we think that the prophecy will play out?

[white avenger]

But if Spike gets the Shanshu AND Buffy, just think how much more Angel will have to brood about!!! It could keep him going for DECADES!

[Keanoite]

Your arguments are interesting. The tug-of-war thing got me thinking, though: what if another vamp becomes ensouled?

All Sanshu stuff assumes Angel and Spike, so people deal with those biases. We discuss character flaws and all sorts of things like that.

But what if Willow botched up a spell and Spike and Angel went all soulless? While our heroes were trying to rein in our terrible twosome, two unnamed, unknown fledgling vamps got their souls. So now we've got the same prophecy, but two different vamps with souls. We know nothing about these two vamps except that one signs up with the black thorn and signs away the prophecy.

Now that our feelings about Angel and Spike are off the table, how do we think that the prophecy will play out?

Like you said with Xander v Spike maturity thing, there is just something nagging in the back of my mind telling me it's Angel. The show was all about Redemption, I can't help but feel it would really sour the whole thing if Angel turned out not to be THE Champion and didn't get his, I mean imagine the end of Buffy but she didn't get the sycthe and didn't save the day, that someone else did. To me that feels wrong.

[palabravampiress]

Like you said with Xander v Spike maturity thing, there is just something nagging in the back of my mind telling me it's Angel. The show was all about Redemption, I can't help but feel it would really sour the whole thing if Angel turned out not to be THE Champion and didn't get his, I mean imagine the end of Buffy but she didn't get the sycthe and didn't save the day, that someone else did. To me that feels wrong.

Well, yeah, except the end that we actually got was all cliffhangery. Grr. I guess we'll never know for sure. Did that irritate anyone else?

Good point about the redemption story. I LOVE redemption stories. I actually just wrote one. Well, I'm in revision mode now. And I'm starting on a new one. I can't get enough. In the first story, my main character finds redemption, but it's a different sort than that which she initially sought. She wanted to be restored to a social position she thought her due. In the end, once she was finally able to forgive herself for her past mistakes, she found that she really fit somewhere else entirely. I mean, it can work that way. I'm not entirely convinced that there is only one way for Angel to be redeemed. I suspect the journey is more important than the end, anyway.

Now, my new story is completely different. It's about a complete scoundrel who is sort of accidentally redeemed, but just a little. There's just a smidgen of good or worth or nobility or whatever you want to call it in even this scum-of-the-earth type fellow. And then I kill him. Because he's just the sort of asshole who would go and ruin it 5 seconds later of I didn't.

Anyway, I see Angel's story as kind of like the first one. I think he could have his redemption at any moment. He just has to think he's earned it and then decide to reach out and take it -- even if it looks a little different than he thought it would. I think Angel's hesitation - his desire to wait for the powers or some other 3rd party to hand it to him - is really his conscience refusing to let him be happy (and, erm, rightly so, until we figure out a way to break the no happiness part of the curse).

[Lyri]

it hard for us to leave our biases behind when we're answering a question like this. i mean, there are hard core Spike fans out there, like myself, and die hard Angel fans, like Keanoite up there. we all want the best for our boys, lol.

i know the whole show was centred around Angel, but that isn't a good enough reason to say that the Shanshu is his. sure, he's done a lot of good since he got his soul back, but he was kinda forced into that. his soul was a curse, because of who he killed. he was cursed to live with the knowledge of every evil deed he did. if he hadn't killed that girl, he'd still be Angelus and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Spike fought for his soul, to be a better man so that he could be worthy of the girl he loved. you said not to use arguments outside of the show (Angel) but you can't ignore that fact, no matter which side you fight for.

Angel signed away the prophecy, but that doesn't really mean anything, whether the Shanshu was his or not. you can't sign away a prophecy, that's the whole point. it's predestined. Angel might be the one, Spike might be the one, but the point is, we could sit here and argue until we're blue in the face, but we're not gonna come up with an answer unless Joss steps up to the plate as far as S6 is concerned!

[Keanoite]

Well, yeah, except the end that we actually got was all cliffhangery. Grr. I guess we'll never know for sure. Did that irritate anyone else?

Good point about the redemption story. I LOVE redemption stories. I actually just wrote one. Well, I'm in revision mode now. And I'm starting on a new one. I can't get enough. In the first story, my main character finds redemption, but it's a different sort than that which she initially sought. She wanted to be restored to a social position she thought her due. In the end, once she was finally able to forgive herself for her past mistakes, she found that she really fit somewhere else entirely. I mean, it can work that way. I'm not entirely convinced that there is only one way for Angel to be redeemed. I suspect the journey is more important than the end, anyway.

Now, my new story is completely different. It's about a complete scoundrel who is sort of accidentally redeemed, but just a little. There's just a smidgen of good or worth or nobility or whatever you want to call it in even this scum-of-the-earth type fellow. And then I kill him. Because he's just the sort of asshole who would go and ruin it 5 seconds later of I didn't.

Anyway, I see Angel's story as kind of like the first one. I think he could have his redemption at any moment. He just has to think he's earned it and then decide to reach out and take it -- even if it looks a little different than he thought it would. I think Angel's hesitation - his desire to wait for the powers or some other 3rd party to hand it to him - is really his conscience refusing to let him be happy (and, erm, rightly so, until we figure out a way to break the no happiness part of the curse).

I think he feels he hasn't done enough and maybe he never will. But I do think it will have to be given to him not just taken. The ring of Amarra and The day that wasn't proved that and possibly everything with Connor. To have a child is very much a human thing, he isn't supposed to get that yet. All reminders that he has miles to go before he sleeps.

[palabravampiress]

I think he feels he hasn't done enough and maybe he never will. But I do think it will have to be given to him not just taken. The ring of Amarra and The day that wasn't proved that and possibly everything with Connor. To have a child is very much a human thing, he isn't supposed to get that yet. All reminders that he has miles to go before he sleeps.

I agree. I think that when he feels he's ready, he'll be redeemed. But if he's not ready yet -- if he pushes away every step forward -- then how can the Sanshu be his?

[Keanoite]

I agree. I think that when he feels he's ready, he'll be redeemed. But if he's not ready yet -- if he pushes away every step forward -- then how can the Sanshu be his?

I haven't read the comic but it seems that this Angel is very much about the fight. NFA showed that, he was all about his mission again. So I think he is back on the right track

[Kana]

Spike fought for his soul, to be a better man so that he could be worthy of the girl he loved. you said not to use arguments outside of the show (Angel) but you can't ignore that fact, no matter which side you fight for.



I'm sorry, I'm not sure how to explain this but what you wrote is actually fine. I actually meant outside the Verse. Sort of like production, or something James Marsters said in bar, that kind of deal. I suppose I mainly use the argument when arguing morality or something like that. Saying for example,"why did Angel kill Drogyn?" and then replying "Well the writers made it that way," Saying it's Angel's show isn't really an 'in the Verse' argument, but using evidence from Buffy is fine. Not really easy to explain but hey

Ok now to throw another spanner in the works. Is Shanshuing, becoming human? That's what most people assume but it literally means to live and die.

Also most people assume it's a reward but who is doing the rewarding. The PTBs moral ambiguity has already been mentioned and we know at least one wasn't considered favourable by AI. Remember the prophecy isn't clear on what side the vampire is going to be when the big show goes down, so if he or she destroys humanity, will the so called forces for good, reward him or her. Again this questions whether the Shanshu is about redemption.

Notice the 'him or her' Yes I accept the possibility the vampire may not be Spike or Angel.

[Keanoite]

Spike fought for his soul, to be a better man so that he could be worthy of the girl he loved. you said not to use arguments outside of the show (Angel) but you can't ignore that fact, no matter which side you fight for

Didn't Angel essentially do the smae thing? like you said he was cursed with his soul it was only when Whistler showed him Buffy that he decieded to make use of it, he wanted to be better for the woman he loved.

To be honest though I don't think who you are in love with or what you do for that love has anything to do with Shanshu.

[ILLYRIAN]

So did Angel really love Buffy when her saw her for the first time as Keanoite put ? That would mean the rat boy fell in love with her at first sight.
Some-body also referred to Buffy saving the day because of the scythe, if Spike wasn't there with the amulet Buffy would have died.
Although Spike was wearing the amulet, he did stop the evil from taking the world, he did save the vampire slayer line.
So give it all to Spike,
I'd like to see Angel as the mail boy again.

[Keanoite]

So did Angel really love Buffy when her saw her for the first time as Keanoite put ? That would mean the rat boy fell in love with her at first sight.
Some-body also referred to Buffy saving the day because of the scythe, if Spike wasn't there with the amulet Buffy would have died.
Although Spike was wearing the amulet, he did stop the evil from taking the world, he did save the vampire slayer line.
So give it all to Spike,
I'd like to see Angel as the mail boy again.

Angel already said he loved her at first sight in Helpless, we have known that for years.

and as far as the scythe thing goes, Spike wouldn't have saved anything if Angel had't brought the amulet to Sunnydale. I don't think that amulet was specific to Spike at all.

[palabravampiress]

Love at first sight? Pooh!

I had forgotten about that. Oh, that bothers me tons. It is sooo creepy. I get it from Buffy's POV. From that POV, Bangel is all cute and Disney-like. But from Angel's POV? "Hi, I'm a 200+ year old man who lives in a sewer. I came up to see you walking out of the schoolyard, little high school FRESHMAN, and I fell in love at first sight." Oh, ewwwww. Can you say "pedophile?" Why does this not seem to creep anyone else out? Adults should NOT fall "in love at first sight" with 14-year-olds.

[Keanoite]

not to get all technical but she was 15!!

Angel was an 18th century boy, marrying a fourteen year old would have been perfectly acceptable to him.

And can I ask one question? How in the name of God could Bangel EVER be described as disney-like? There isn't a happy ending in sight. Nobody lives happily ever after? Its pretty much pain pain and more pain!!

[Kana]

If you edit out the Angelus bits, then year, sure lol, very disney.

I don't instintually find Bangel creepy but it's a little weird when you think about it I guess by today's standards. I also suppose the idea of sleeping with a vampire was dealt with on the show briefly. Sleeping with corpses? Anyway...

About Angel being the delivery boy? I don't really like to look at it like that. I certainly don't use it as a mark against Angel as he was willing to fight with Buffy and wear the amulet but Buffy felt he would be more valuable being the back-up Buffy if you will, which, although he didn't have to use the second front was still a huge responsibility. Well, as Angel said, it was Buffy's call but I don't that makes Angel's intentions wrong or not to be counted. However it's not to nullify what Spike did. That has it's own value, but I guess I don't put it on a scoreboard.

[Keanoite]

If you edit out the Angelus bits, then year, sure lol, very disney.

I don't instintually find Bangel creepy but it's a little weird when you think about it I guess by today's standards. I also suppose the idea of sleeping with a vampire was dealt with on the show briefly. Sleeping with corpses? Anyway...

About Angel being the delivery boy? I don't really like to look at it like that. I certainly don't use it as a mark against Angel as he was willing to fight with Buffy and wear the amulet but Buffy felt he would be more valuable being the back-up Buffy if you will, which, although he didn't have to use the second front was still a huge responsibility. Well, as Angel said, it was Buffy's call but I don't that makes Angel's intentions wrong or not to be counted. However it's not to nullify what Spike did. That has it's own value, but I guess I don't put it on a scoreboard.


I'm still struggling to see the disney. If Buffy and Angel had gotten the Disney touch well then they would be living happily ever after in a castle in Ireland sprouting out babies like theres no tomorrow!! but then we have reality!

I don't think anything should be taken away from what either of them did. As far as I'm concerned they both played huge roles!

[palabravampiress]

not to get all technical but she was 15!!

Angel was an 18th century boy, marrying a fourteen year old would have been perfectly acceptable to him.

And can I ask one question? How in the name of God could Bangel EVER be described as disney-like? There isn't a happy ending in sight. Nobody lives happily ever after? Its pretty much pain pain and more pain!!

Ok. 15 is a little better. And yeah, that makes a little more sense in an 18th-century-context (although 14 would have been a bit young for a gentry class girl to be "out," even in the 18th century). Doing a 14-year-old servant (a la Pamela) would have been more the norm. Liam looked to be lower gentry to me -- nowhere near titled and not exactly rich, but landed and with a pew at church and at least enough money for a maid-of-all-work and a carriage (when the horse wasn't in the field).

I think of it as being Disney-like because it's all star-crossed loverey and romantic. The ideas of teenage girls falling into true love and love at first sight remind me of Disney movies. But you're right, those do have happy endings, and poor Buffy and Angel never do get their happy ending.

[Keanoite]

Ok. 15 is a little better. And yeah, that makes a little more sense in an 18th-century-context (although 14 would have been a bit young for a gentry class girl to be "out," even in the 18th century). Doing a 14-year-old servant (a la Pamela) would have been more the norm. Liam looked to be lower gentry to me -- nowhere near titled and not exactly rich, but landed and with a pew at church and at least enough money for a maid-of-all-work and a carriage (when the horse wasn't in the field).

I think of it as being Disney-like because it's all star-crossed loverey and romantic. The ideas of teenage girls falling into true love and love at first sight remind me of Disney movies. But you're right, those do have happy endings, and poor Buffy and Angel never do get their happy ending.

To be honest I think they got Angel's gentry all wrong in the show. At that time and in that part of Ireland, it was the poorest of the poor. Angel's father being a merchant seems a little far fetched and being openly catholic would have been extremley difficult. It would have been more likely that he had a small holding of land that his family worked and really by 26 he would have taken a wife and he probably would have spoken Irish too. And 14 really wouldn't have been that shocking, almost expected. It would have worked better if they made him from Dublin, then his story would make sense.

[wiccianslayer]

ok i converted my dad in to an angel fan (i know i'm good) and he revcons its not gonna be spke or angel he thinks its gonna be conner and i gotta agree partly

[Keanoite]

ok i converted my dad in to an angel fan (i know i'm good) and he revcons its not gonna be spke or angel he thinks its gonna be conner and i gotta agree partly

How? Connor isn't a vamp with a soul...unless thats down the line...

[wiccianslayer]

actully he is a vamp hes the son of 2 vamps just because he doesn't drink blood or go in to game face doesn't mean he's not a vamp and he does have a soul

[Keanoite]

actully he is a vamp hes the son of 2 vamps just because he doesn't drink blood or go in to game face doesn't mean he's not a vamp and he does have a soul

when are we told he is a vamp? its said specifically he is human with super strenght. He ages, he can't make other vamps, he can go out in sunlight. His two parents being vamps mean nothing, infact didn't Jasmine say he was born because she needed the impossible to exsist before she could arrive. Connor is not vampire.

[wiccianslayer]

ok i'm trying to understand how conner can't be a vampire seen as darla and angel are his parents cause now i'm confused any ideas on why hes not a vamp?

[Keanoite]

I refer back to buffy for this

Buffy: To make you a vampire they have to suck your blood. And then you
have to suck their blood. It's like a whole big sucking thing.

Connor was consieved the old fashioned way, granted some magic was involved but he IS human. Darla carried him for 9 months, he grew in her womb, he didn't rise. He was born (sorta). For Connor to be a vamp he would have to be turned, that never happened to him. He is a human man.

[wiccianslayer]

ok maybe he isn't a vamp but i'll always think there's definatly more to conner

[Keanoite]

ok maybe he isn't a vamp but i'll always think there's definatly more to conner

He is definitely superhuman but he just isn't vamp

[wiccianslayer]

yep but he's gotta have a destiny

[Keanoite]

he did, it was to kill sahjan and maybe there is more to it. But his destiny is just that, HIS.

Shashu was just one prophecy, there are millions of others. Connor has no claim to Shanshu, he has his own gig.

[wiccianslayer]

Definatly intreging though

[Keanoite]

personally, i find him really irratating. He was better in season 5 but only time will tell what's instore for him

[wiccianslayer]

i always felt sorry for him with him being in quartoth then coming back all screwed up having a pretty screwed up (air quotes) family

[Keanoite]

I never really felt that sorry for him...he jsut bugged me too much! ok maybe at the end of season 4 but other than that, he wasn't getting any sympathy from me.

[wiccianslayer]

your heartless ya know that?

[Keanoite]

When it comes to Connor yes I probably am...I mean is there any character that you dislike?

[wiccianslayer]

hmmm not really though i didn't like keddedy that much i disliked xander from time to time riley pi**ed me off with him vamp whores then giving buffy an ultimatume forest who didn't wanna smack that guy i hated angelus in season 2 of buffy hated quention travers didn't like drusillia didn't like darla till season 3 hated luke and the master wanted buffy to kick adams a** wanted to bi*ch slap veruca never liked glory hated warren wanted to torture him for years actully caleb shouldn't have been created at all hated the shadow men wanted to kill parker wow guess i do hold a "I HATE YOU" TORCH FOR SOME CHARACTORS

[Keanoite]

See!!! you are way more bitter than me!!!!!!

[wiccianslayer]

How am i bitter???????????? please tell me you don't like any of those charactors

[Keanoite]

Ok I'll go along with everyone except Caleb, Drusilla and Aneglus...they were fantastic to watch

[wiccianslayer]

ok i kinda like angelus in angel, drusillia i feel sorry for cause of all the things angelus did to her but CALEB!!!!!!! what are you thinking?

[Keanoite]

Oh come on you didn't think he was enetertaining? Nathan Fillion is FANTASTIC!!!!! and Agelus was at his best in Sunnydale!!!

[wiccianslayer]

He was a cruel bas##rd and so was caleb

[Keanoite]

Yeah that was the point!!!! but besides that, Angelus pretty much stole every scene he was in!!! and caleb was just so twisted you couldn't help but be fascinated by him! I mean it's not like I didn't want Buffy to cut him in half but while he was there he made it fun!

[Angel's vision]

The Arguments for "it's Angel's show" and He signed it away" and "It was predicted that he will be cut off from the PTB" are pretty weak I agree,
BUT the latter one was a reason why the demon Vocah killed the oracles, I guess that was the "cutting off" the scroll was refering to.

There isn't really good evidence as to whom the scroll was refering to Angel or Spike, and I guess the writers will continue to tease us as they started to do in AS5.

[wiccianslayer]

he so did not!! !!!!!! !!!!!!!

Edit:

He was a such a .......i can't even say what he is cause i dont wanna risk getting banned but if you like him you might as well like warren

[Keanoite]

Not really, Warren's character was pathetic, there was nothing intersting about him. Caleb caught the attention, he was a masoginistic f**k but he enetertained!

[wiccianslayer]

maybe.......... maybe not

[Nabila]

ok maybe he isn't a vamp but i'll always think there's definatly more to conner

Okay I can't resist this. I believe Connor is not a vampire but since his parents are, then he is part demon like Doyle. Otherwise he would not have that strength. I think. :biggrin:

Originally posted by Keanoite
I never really felt that sorry for him...he jsut bugged me too much! ok maybe at the end of season 4 but other than that, he wasn't getting any sympathy from me.

Me too. I didn't hate him too much because Holtz did mess him up real good emotionally and mentally. I can't forgive him though for throwing Angel to the bottom of the sea, and playing the good warrior against evil as if nothing happened, and as if he's replacing Angel.

About the shanshu: I believe it's for Angel.

[ILLYRIAN]

There must have been part demon in Connor for the no violence spell to kick in when he went to hit Angelus.

Now about the Shan shu......I'm hoping that Xander gets it in season nine.

[Kana]

There must have been part demon in Connor for the no violence spell to kick in when he went to hit Angelus.

Now about the Shan shu......I'm hoping that Xander gets it in season nine.

Lol, since when was Xander a vampire with a soul? Or is there a storyline I don't know about yet?

[Allycat]

How about Gunn? Now that he's a vampire, he already meets half the requirements!

[Keanoite]

How about Gunn? Now that he's a vampire, he already meets half the requirements!

OOHH! interesting...

[Joyce Summers]

Ooh! I like that thought too. And Willow can do the rest of the job.

But if I had to choose between Angel and Spike for getting the prophecy, I think it's kind of a 'they are both on the same path and who reaches it first by whatever fate-out-of-their-hands means gets shanshu-ed. But I do lean towards Spike. Mainly because Angel was cursed with his soul while Spike earned his, doesn't matter the reasons, he still fought for it. Spike definitely falls into the Champion category after sacrificing himself to save the world and Slayers everywhere. Plus, Spike even without a soul can be a good person and even if I love the Bangel relationship so so much (I'm a total romantic) I still believe Spike is so much a better person than Angel. He is just more good. And I think that gives, well not a right, but more reason for him to have the shanshu. Spike has killed, but Angel tortured, maimed, scarred and I truly don't think Spike has ever done something as severe as what Angelus did with Jenny- the scene in Giles' apartment, etc. How can a man who has been so,so evil ever be allowed redemption? To be rewarded for a sum amount of good after commiting so much evil that he did 'with a song in his heart'?It just doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I lean toward Spike

[white avenger]

The thing I've never really understood about the Shanshu is: why would someone who is immortal, possessing of superhuman strength, and the senses of a predatory animal want to work that hard to lose all of that just to get a sun tan? Okay, supposedly he would also be able to have children (no, wait, Angel's already done that), enjoy human food (no, wait, Spike does that regularly), have the woman he loves, (no, wait, Angel and Spike have BOTH done that)...The only thing left to desire is growing old, and believe me my friends, if that's a reward...

[Keanoite]

The thing I've never really understood about the Shanshu is: why would someone who is immortal, possessing of superhuman strength, and the senses of a predatory animal want to work that hard to lose all of that just to get a sun tan? Okay, supposedly he would also be able to have children (no, wait, Angel's already done that), enjoy human food (no, wait, Spike does that regularly), have the woman he loves, (no, wait, Angel and Spike have BOTH done that)...The only thing left to desire is growing old, and believe me my friends, if that's a reward...

All good points but I think the stickler is watching all those loved ones die. Not so much fun, and really does anybody who is not a soulless vamp want to live forever? And to ANGEL (the rightful owner of Shanshu:lmao:) it was more about forgiveness for what he had done, turning human was the icing on the cake.

[palabravampiress]

Ooh! I like that thought too. And Willow can do the rest of the job.

But if I had to choose between Angel and Spike for getting the prophecy, I think it's kind of a 'they are both on the same path and who reaches it first by whatever fate-out-of-their-hands means gets shanshu-ed. But I do lean towards Spike. Mainly because Angel was cursed with his soul while Spike earned his, doesn't matter the reasons, he still fought for it. Spike definitely falls into the Champion category after sacrificing himself to save the world and Slayers everywhere. Plus, Spike even without a soul can be a good person and even if I love the Bangel relationship so so much (I'm a total romantic) I still believe Spike is so much a better person than Angel. He is just more good. And I think that gives, well not a right, but more reason for him to have the shanshu. Spike has killed, but Angel tortured, maimed, scarred and I truly don't think Spike has ever done something as severe as what Angelus did with Jenny- the scene in Giles' apartment, etc. How can a man who has been so,so evil ever be allowed redemption? To be rewarded for a sum amount of good after commiting so much evil that he did 'with a song in his heart'?It just doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I lean toward Spike

Oh my God, we disagree (kind of). Keanoite will be shocked, but I'm about to defend Angel.

I support Spike for the Shanshu prophecy. Everyone knows that by now. That's how I interpreted the prophecy signing away thing. Also, I agree that soulless Spike is the guy I'd choose to save the world and get his humanity back over soulless Angel (otherwise known as Angelus). Spike is the better person. Even without a soul, he grew as a person -- possibly more than Angel did with a soul. Even without a soul, he tried to save the world when Angelus tried to destroy it. Even more than that, I think he has the capacity to forgive himself and take the reward. I don't think Angel will ever forgive himself enough to feel himself worthy of taking the reward. If he ever were to get it, I think he'd turn it down - whether Spike is in the picture or not. So I am feeling you on the Spike's the Shanshu guy thing.

Even so, I don't think a guy who got his nickname by driving railroad spikes through his victims can be said to have tortured, maimed, and scarred to a lesser extent than Angel. Taking into consideration the years that Angel spent drifting after he was cursed with his soul, I'd even say Spike had enough time to even out the body count. Spike learned at Angel's feet. Angel's style was more ballsy and less psychological, but that's all it was: a difference in style. The way I see it, those two are pretty much on par with one another when it comes to the various crimes that they have committed. Any differences were matters of personal taste. If Angel's actions as a soulless vampire take him out of the running for the Shanshu, then Spike's actions must do the same. I don't see Angel as any more guilty than Spike just because Angel played with his food more often than Spike did.

Fortunately, I don't think their crimes take either of them out of the running. The Shanshu is about redemption. It follows, then, that Shanshu boy has done some awful things for which he must need to be redeemed. They've both taken great strides. They both deserve it. I might argue for one candidate over the other because I think one deserves it more, but you'll never see me argue that Angel doesn't deserve it at all. Actually, I really like to watch them fight with one another and try to out-good each other, so I kind of hope it isn't decided for a long, long time. I think they were both really bad guys. Now, they're really good guys. I could settle for seeing either one of them redeemed.

I just hope that whoever gets the Shanshu doesn't also get Buffy. If Spike Shanshus, then I want Angel with Buffy (and curse free). If Angel Shanshus, then I was Spike with Buffy (which would be as good as a Shanshu to him, anyway). Ultimately, I want both of them to be all redeemed and happy.

[Joyce Summers]

Us?! Disagree? Non! haha. Though I do have to say I completely understand where you're coming from and yes, I suppose with the origin of the nickname 'Spike' we have to accept he did do the torture and maiming scene, but I supoose what I was saying that Angelus was a lot worse. Even Angel said Spike was second to him in all evilness.
But yes, you're right the Shanshu is all about redemption and both our boys are in deep need of it. I just have a lean towards Spike for the Shanshu because of all he went through to get his soul, and how he fought his own nature to be good for Buffy. I mean I know he had the chip stopping him from biting people, but that didn't make him protect Dawn after Buffy was gone. He did care about her a lot and even says to her 'NO. I'm not leaving you to get hurt again'. He has humanity in him even when soulless unlike Angelus, as stated by The Judge, who has none. So maybe....I think I believe Spike can be redeemed but Angel is beyond redemption....I don't know, the more I talk about this the more I get confused.
But I do agree on the one or the other deal. I don't think it would be fair if the Shanshued vamp, whoever it is, also got the Buffster. Romantic? Yes. Fair?No.

[GATEGOD]

It would be heartbreaking for the other vamp :cry: I like them both especially with Buffy, so either way I'd be happy and SAD! haha, I love it I think!!

[Kana]

This isn't a bias but one thing I have to say is that Spike's motivation in Season 2 of Buffy seemed to be Drusilla. Certainly his actions were ambiguous so I'm not sure about his intentions exactly.

In Surprise, he seemed impatient to destroy the world whereas Angelus barely seemed interested. Then we have becoming when Angelus wants to detroy the world and Spike crosses him.

I'd say in both cases it was about Dru. I get the impression that Dru was the impetus behind the Judge and Angel seems to think so too.

Angel: She's crazy enough to do it.

It a case of "pleasing the girl" something Spike likes to do.

In Becoming he wants to get Dru away from Angelus so he enlists Buffy's help to do it, I doubt it has much to do with saving the world as when he gets what he wants he buggers off. Even though he thought Buffy was going to die and the world was going to end. Spike wasn't bothered. Not saying that makes him less noble overall, just wanted to clarify that.

I don't think Spike was anywhere as sadistic as Angelus but I think he most likely did torture people, he seemed pretty skilled at it. I shudder to think what he did to girls Dawn's age.

[Angel's vision]

How can a man who has been so,so evil ever be allowed redemption? To be rewarded for a sum amount of good after commiting so much evil that he did 'with a song in his heart'?It just doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I lean toward Spike Because redemption does not have limits as to how far you stoop in order to need it that's why.
Spike as Palabravampiress pionted out wasn't any less guilty then Angel.

[Keanoite]

How can a man who has been so,so evil ever be allowed redemption? To be rewarded for a sum amount of good after commiting so much evil that he did 'with a song in his heart'?It just doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I lean toward Spike

Ok not get all religious freak on ya but Angel was brought up Catholic. As a Catholic he would have been thought that there is forgiveness and Paradise for everyone once you confess and repent. That's what he has been doing, forgiveness is what he wants more than anything, to have hope of Heaven again.
And really why shouldn't he? I mean we will never cause the hurt that he has but none of us will do the kind of good he has done either. And as for Spike, I don't see why how you can say he was less brutal? railroads through the head? the story he was telling Dawn about the little girl in the coal bunker? Spike was evil and not just a little bit, A LOT!!!

[Kana]

I think it does get a little "let's not quibble" Spike in Damage gets insight in the fact that he did a lot of damage. Angelus damage was different, and personal but Spike still wrecked a lot of lives. Angelus almost destroyed the world but then Spike almost aided the same thing for his 'Princess'. Do we nitpick and say "yeah but Angelus, more so?" I don't think Spike himself would accept that.

I kind of like Angel's humanistic approach to being a champion anyways. Helping where you can standing up for elements of human dignity with which you can identify, whether you get a reward or not. To Angel is doesn't matter "what you've done or suffered", you can still change and help people.

[Joyce Summers]

I think maybe I just have issues with Angel over the whole Jenny thing....
But I think Keanoite's banner, ironically made by me haha, petty much somes up whatwe're discussing in this thread; forgiveness. And I suppose through that message I come to the conclusion that they are both equally deserving. As Giles said 'forgiveness is an act of compassion. It's not done because people deserve it, it's done because they need it'. And both Spike and Angel need forgiveness and need redemption so I suppose that makes them equal in their rights to Shanshu. Honestly though, I don't know whether Spike would be happy being made human. I mean we know Angel would be...but Spike? Even when he's good he seems to get a rush from the strength and power of being vampire. I don't think he'd really want to give that up

[Keanoite]

I said that very same thing on another thread. I really don't think Spike would wan't humanity. He doesn't have a curse hanging over him, he can get on with his life and be as a happy or whatever he wants to be. He hated who he was as human and I don't think he wants to go to that in any way, shape or form. Unlike Angel he likes who he is.

[palabravampiress]

I think maybe I just have issues with Angel over the whole Jenny thing....
But I think Keanoite's banner, ironically made by me haha, petty much somes up whatwe're discussing in this thread; forgiveness. And I suppose through that message I come to the conclusion that they are both equally deserving. As Giles said 'forgiveness is an act of compassion. It's not done because people deserve it, it's done because they need it'. And both Spike and Angel need forgiveness and need redemption so I suppose that makes them equal in their rights to Shanshu. Honestly though, I don't know whether Spike would be happy being made human. I mean we know Angel would be...but Spike? Even when he's good he seems to get a rush from the strength and power of being vampire. I don't think he'd really want to give that up

I buy this. I don't think Spike wants the human part. I think he wants the forgiveness and redemption part, though. He might take the human part to get the other part.

Although, here's a thought: in the Did Buffy Sleep with Spike in Season 7 thread, I sort of theorized that Spike was already all forgiven and redeemed. I mean, if his story had ended with his death, I don't think any of us would be sitting around wondering. That was sort of the whole point. I had all of this "think like a poet" reasoning. It made perfect sense to me. I mean, he had the effulgent soul there to burst forth and save the day with its pretty pretty rays of light. I'd figure you'd have to have been redeemed for your soul to be sparkly fresh enough to close a hellmouth.

Spike coming back sort of screws with that theory, but maybe not. Dude, what if Spike already Shanshued and Joss is just messing with us? The vampire with a soul will play a major role in the apocalypse. Well, being the chosen one and saving the world, that's a pretty major role. Then there's that cryptic part about Shanshu meaning both living and dying. Wesley interpreted that as mortality, but what if Wes was wrong? Heck, he appears to have been wrong about Connor, talking hamburgers notwithstanding. I mean Spike died and now he's back. Doesn't that sort of encompass the whole both living and dying thing?

Maybe everyone is completely misinterpreting the prophecy and it doesn't involve becoming a real boy at all. I mean, it's a prophecy. Sometimes, those get way overblown all the time. Buffy's death at the Master's hand was grossly exaggerated. The Connor prophecy was a fib. What if there's something fishy about this one, too?

[Keanoite]

I buy this. I don't think Spike wants the human part. I think he wants the forgiveness and redemption part, though. He might take the human part to get the other part.

Although, here's a thought: in the Did Buffy Sleep with Spike in Season 7 thread, I sort of theorized that Spike was already all forgiven and redeemed. I mean, if his story had ended with his death, I don't think any of us would be sitting around wondering. That was sort of the whole point. I had all of this "think like a poet" reasoning. It made perfect sense to me. I mean, he had the effulgent soul there to burst forth and save the day with its pretty pretty rays of light. I'd figure you'd have to have been redeemed for your soul to be sparkly fresh enough to close a hellmouth.

Spike coming back sort of screws with that theory, but maybe not. Dude, what if Spike already Shanshued and Joss is just messing with us? The vampire with a soul will play a major role in the apocalypse. Well, being the chosen one and saving the world, that's a pretty major role. Then there's that cryptic part about Shanshu meaning both living and dying. Wesley interpreted that as mortality, but what if Wes was wrong? Heck, he appears to have been wrong about Connor, talking hamburgers notwithstanding. I mean Spike died and now he's back. Doesn't that sort of encompass the whole both living and dying thing?

Maybe everyone is completely misinterpreting the prophecy and it doesn't involve becoming a real boy at all. I mean, it's a prophecy. Sometimes, those get way overblown all the time. Buffy's death at the Master's hand was grossly exaggerated. The Connor prophecy was a fib. What if there's something fishy about this one, too?

Thats a really good question. But Spike as a vampire isn't living at all, he is undead. I think Joss is going to spring something on us because like you said Wes's interpretation was pretty vague and well he doesn't have the best track record, I mean even in Buffy he got that thing with Il Iliminati completely arse ways! I think he is going to shock us with something and make all the years of debate worthless! It would be just like him too!

[Joyce Summers]

Oh my god palabra I think you just gave me a moment of Shanshu enlightenment. Your theory over Spike already being shanshued just made every click into place, like literally I heard the pieces of the puzzle slot into their Shanshu home.
You're right that Wesley said Shanshu means both to live and to die and as you pointed out Spike has already done that, plus I completely agree on how he'd have to have redemption already to be channel the evil-destroying, world-saving sunlight and prophecies are always sketchy. The Father Will Kill the Son, The Slayer will Face the Master and She will Die, and how many prophecies of apocolypses have both A.I and the Scoobies proved wrong time and time again? And like you said, Wesley has got it wrong before.
Whoa, I'm actually in a moment of geeker bliss (well maybe not bliss but a pretty darn happy place) over this revelation you've shown me.

So...erm...yeah.....I agree .::clears throat self-consciously::.

[TabulaRasa]

Spike. I have said it 100 times, here's 101. I just believe he is the true champion.

[greetings]

A thought I just had... Darla was a vampire-with-a-soul for a while too, when she was pregnant with Connor. Kind of gives you the idea that it could end up being about some other vampire that isn't Spike or Angel.

[Dlou444]

AHHHHHH! Deep thought! I am feeling better and my computer APPEARS to be working, so I'm game.

I have mixed Shanshu feelings.

1.) All the "proof" of the Shanshu seems to be shady because it all seems to come from WR&H. That doesn't make it untrue, but shady.
2.) Wes's interpretations....or anyone's make it a bit shaky. Translation is in the eye of the beholder. :looking:
3.) Since we don't know which side the said Vampire with the soul is fighting for, we really have no idea whether the better Champion, better Man, nicer guy or anything SHOULD get it. The better Champion might be in the battle, but if the Shanshu guy is on the BAD side, perhaps the better Champion is fighting against him.
4.) It seems rather HIP to be a Vampire with a soul so there could be zillions more and gee....pick an apocolypse.
5.) Eve doesn't exactly explain everything, but she alludes to the fact that she and Lindsey faked the whole "universe in flux" thing.
6.) Spike COULD have been Shanshued, because even he says in the special features that no one knows how or why he came back. And we're not entirely clear on what the prophecy says about being "alive". Sure enough, he did "die" and then he came back. It's not quite the way Wesley led us to believe it would be, but it does cover both life and death.
7.) I still think it's impossible to sign away a prophecy unless by doing so, Angel had given up his soul. And I still think that by signing it away that, he easily could have set himself UP for the Shanshu. Assuming, that it's real, translated correctly, a good thing, and we have the correct apocolypse.

[palabravampiress]

I agree with Dlou444. This Shanshu stuff is pretty shady. There are tons of ways to go with it. There are a lot of valid possibilities. There are also a lot of vague half-truths from unreliable sources, any one of which could be turned on its head at any one time. Also, there is always the possibility of another ensouled vamp coming into the picture. Unless Joss someday finally tells us what he really means, I don't think we'll ever know for sure. I kind of don't want to know. I think that when Joss tells us, the Buffyverse will have had its final battle.

For now, though, my money is on the Spike already Shanshued theory because that would just be too funny. I would just love it if Joss one day revealed that he had played that nasty little trick on us. Heck, the looks on various characters' faces would be priceless -- not least of all the look on Spike's own face. Haha. I think I find this theory the most potentially amusing theory that I've seen so far, even if it is my theory. I guess that's why I'm able to get behind it. It would be a hoot! I'm always up for a plot twist that tickles my funny bone.

[Dlou444]

And, sure, Spike may be TECNICALLY "undead", but is that not alive? He's surely more alive in Season 5 of Angel than in the last 5 minutes of Buffy. Besides, he spent 7 seasons on these shows, traveling, being in love, having sex, drinking, sampling blooming onions, having parties, making friends, saving the world, being held captive, playing poker....heck, the guy "lives" more than I do! Granted, I've been to the beach in the last year but that's not saying all THAT much.

Edit:

I think it does get a little "let's not quibble" Spike in Damage gets insight in the fact that he did a lot of damage. Angelus damage was different, and personal but Spike still wrecked a lot of lives. Angelus almost destroyed the world but then Spike almost aided the same thing for his 'Princess'. Do we nitpick and say "yeah but Angelus, more so?" I don't think Spike himself would accept that.

I kind of like Angel's humanistic approach to being a champion anyways. Helping where you can standing up for elements of human dignity with which you can identify, whether you get a reward or not. To Angel is doesn't matter "what you've done or suffered", you can still change and help people.

I just find this interesting. It's a good point.
I think I find the difference in Spike's Damage and Angelus's Damage to be different in many ways though.
Angelus is just a poop. I think of him as sheer evil in many ways. Tormenting people, making Drusilla a nut case, even the way he hopped around Sunnydale happily messing with people's heads. He's like a serial killer who picks his victim, stalks them, lets them KNOW he's stalking them, kills their family and finally comes after them. That's cruel.

Spike strikes me more as a drunk driver. He's not setting his sights on people and tormenting everyone around them and making them crazy. He's just having fun and going on with his life and anyone that gets caught in the crossfire....oh well. But, it's not the same INTENT....other than maybe that first Slayer woman, but then again, she WAS a Slayer and potentially a thorn in his happy care-free life.

He didn't want to end the world. Sure, he admits it's for selfish reasons. But, then again, if I had the option to save the world or send it into hell....I'd choose to save it.....for selfish reasons. My life, my friends, my family...not because I'd be thinking of the zillions of people I've never met and how they deserve to be happy and not thrown in to hell.

In any case...the redemption, in MY mind, is different for the two scenarios. And, sadly, all still comes back to Spike isn't all that bad pre-soul....or pre-chip. As long as you didn't ACTIVELY cross him...and even if you did, he might decide to work with you anyway if it means getting his girlfriend back.

[palabravampiress]

And, sure, Spike may be TECNICALLY "undead", but is that not alive? He's surely more alive in Season 5 of Angel than in the last 5 minutes of Buffy. Besides, he spent 7 seasons on these shows, traveling, being in love, having sex, drinking, sampling blooming onions, having parties, making friends, saving the world, being held captive, playing poker....heck, the guy "lives" more than I do! Granted, I've been to the beach in the last year but that's not saying all THAT much.

Edit:



I just find this interesting. It's a good point.
I think I find the difference in Spike's Damage and Angelus's Damage to be different in many ways though.
Angelus is just a poop. I think of him as sheer evil in many ways. Tormenting people, making Drusilla a nut case, even the way he hopped around Sunnydale happily messing with people's heads. He's like a serial killer who picks his victim, stalks them, lets them KNOW he's stalking them, kills their family and finally comes after them. That's cruel.

Spike strikes me more as a drunk driver. He's not setting his sights on people and tormenting everyone around them and making them crazy. He's just having fun and going on with his life and anyone that gets caught in the crossfire....oh well. But, it's not the same INTENT....other than maybe that first Slayer woman, but then again, she WAS a Slayer and potentially a thorn in his happy care-free life.

He didn't want to end the world. Sure, he admits it's for selfish reasons. But, then again, if I had the option to save the world or send it into hell....I'd choose to save it.....for selfish reasons. My life, my friends, my family...not because I'd be thinking of the zillions of people I've never met and how they deserve to be happy and not thrown in to hell.

In any case...the redemption, in MY mind, is different for the two scenarios. And, sadly, all still comes back to Spike isn't all that bad pre-soul....or pre-chip. As long as you didn't ACTIVELY cross him...and even if you did, he might decide to work with you anyway if it means getting his girlfriend back.

First off, Angelus isn't "like" that serial killer. He is that serial killer. What you just described is exactly what he did to Dru -- then he had the nerve to make her into a killer like him.

And about Spike, well, yeah; you're right. He might work with you to get his girlfriend back. But he might also freakin' eat you under the assumption that said girlfriend will dig that. Eat you! And not in the good way.

They are different kinds of scary, yeah, but I wouldn't have wanted to cross paths with either one of them, that's for sure. Was Spike really less evil just because his kills were less premeditated? I, for one, wouldn't have wanted to have ended up on either list of victims.

[Dlou444]

Vampires don't really count as serial killers do they? Okay, maybe...but not in the normal every day world where there aren't so many vampires.

Personally, if I had a choice, I think I'd rather be random passer-by victim then stalk me, scare me, kill my family and make me wonder when it's my turn victim. But, that is just me.

But, that also delves into my reasons for being against the death penalty and that's just a box of worms that needent be opened.

There are different levels of killer. Serial Killer who kills a family and Drunk Driver Guy who kills a family. Sure, both families still dead and not one deader than the other. But, there IS an intent factor there. I've yet to meet anyone who wants to drive drunk that sets out to kill anyone...much less hopes to kill a certain someone. Sure, people die and drunk driver's know it's possible. And a bad thing. But more of a side-effect of the drinker being selfish and not wanting to rearrange their life and not as deliberate as being a serial killer.
The redemption for such an act is different, and should be. Someone SERIOUSLY feeling remorse for driving drunk...there are things they can do. Volunteer, share their stories with others, start a organization, drive around to bars every night being the "free taxi". There's not the same outlet for serial killers. Highschool's don't really want to invite you in so you can counsel the students on how bad stalking and killing is. And no one wants you trolling the bars at night...even if it's to clear the parking lots of serial killers before last call.

I can forgive vampires random killing. Chickie alone in an alley...dumb and not just because of vampires. It's like the how Circle of Life thing from the Lion King. Intentionally hunting people down and tormenting them...different. And, really, the only people I see Spike hunting down to kill is...His Mom...(But for sweet reasons), the Slayers (which was still kind of a kill or be killed thing and even then, we're talking three and he only killed two) and they make references in the show that he killed the poop heads who made fun of his poems. And I have to admit, I kind of felt like doing that too. In fact, in that episode, when Buffy gets all mean to him at the end, I kind of wanted to ram a railroad spike into HER head too.
But, still that's two slayers and maybe a room full of people that we maybe know he actively went after. Everyone else, was just random consequences of being a vampire. Surely he made up for ONE of those when he offed that Creepy Annointed Kid!

[Lorne]

Well well a touchy subject most definitely. Those who are die-hard fans of Angel would assume the prophecy was meant for him, and him alone as he was the first vampire with a soul. The soul was given to him by force though, if you recall from Buffy Season 2 when he reminisces (seems to be my word for the day) about the curse of the Gypsies when he devoured their beloved clan member.

Here's my two sense on this:

Spike went to the trials on the other side of the world after he attempted to rape Buffy during the end of Season 6, when that failed he wanted to return to his former self, without the chip. That was the point of his seeking the demon out for the three trials and a gift in the end which was his goal, to become a soulless Spike again. He did not intend to be given his soul, that was not the plan. He wanted to be the man he was before he desired Buffy, back when he wanted her dead.

Then when he received the soul, he realized what a gift it truly was, and decided it was worth it after the insanity of the First let him be.

Spike and Angel both are champions to the Powers that Be. They've been through trials that should be impossible.

Angel went through a similar trial in Season 2 when Darla was brought back to life by the Senior Partners at Wolfram & Hart. He went to the trial to restore Darla's life span so she could live out a normal life with his protection. When that failed, or so they assumed, Angel stopped believing in prophecies... especially when Darla informed him after she'd been turned back into a vampire that she was pregnant with their son. Wesley was the one who told them that Angel was to kill Connor after he was born, and that was truly when Angel stopped believing in prophecies because as we all know Connor was taken by (what was his name... I can't recall it right now but it will come back to me I'm sure) - any who he was taken to another deminsion by HOLTS, I think... dimension, sorry -

Angel assumed at that point that the ShanShu was another myth meant to mislead him. However when he learned of Spike's soul restored to him he began to see the possibilities that he might have to fight for it after all, if he ever wanted to be the one that would be able to bite Buffy's cookie dough.

The ShanShu is supposed to depict the winner of the prophecy who's main goal is to win against the ultimate evil, the final apocalypse that would change the balance of good and evil over all. Angel and Spike are after the ShanShu for two things, and two things only though each has their own better ways into getting to that point - to beat the other and get the ShanShu just because they despise each other, and to win Buffy back from "The Immortal".

So with the cliff-hanger at the end of Season 5, it's really interesting to see that Angel and Spike are both still alive and both still fighting the final Apocalypse and working together to get the same thing. When it comes down to it however, will one of them back down? There was one episode in Season 5 which seemed that Spike would be the winner after all when he drank from the Chalice that was supposed to have the ShanShu inside it. That makes one wonder if he is going to be it, or if Angel let him have it? Or is Angel supposed to have it? It's all up to what you think and how you feel truly.

Me personally, I think Angel should get it, but again that's because I'm a die-hard fan. However, there's a small part of me that thinks Spike deserves the ShanShu, because technically he won it when Angel signed his soul on the contract of the ShanShu prophecy itself when he betrayed the Order.

[Blondie Bear]

Spike went to the trials on the other side of the world after he attempted to rape Buffy during the end of Season 6, when that failed he wanted to return to his former self, without the chip. That was the point of his seeking the demon out for the three trials and a gift in the end which was his goal, to become a soulless Spike again. He did not intend to be given his soul, that was not the plan. He wanted to be the man he was before he desired Buffy, back when he wanted her dead.


Actually, according to Joss, Spike had every intention of getting his soul back. It was written ambiguously so it would be a surprise--we were supposed to THINK he was trying to get the chip out. Spike's re-ensoulment was entirely voluntary.

[palabravampiress]

You've summed it up nicely, Lorne, minus the bit about spike's soul being an accident. Like Blondie Bear said, that was entirely voluntary. The boys do seem to be running neck-and-neck, with Spike maybe a little in the lead by virtue of having won his soul.

What do you think about Spike's soul as it appeared in The Chosen, all shiny and good and cleansing-of-evil? What do you think about the fact that he died and was resurrected?

From Destiny:

ANGEL: I really wished you stayed a ghost.
SPIKE: But I didn't, did I? Burned up saving the world,
and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm
the one, you git!

In this episode, Spike's arguments and the imagery that is attached to them win me over. In fact, they cause me to theorize that Spike has already Shan Shued. To live and to die, right? Well, my little pet theory is that the prophecy doesn't refer to human mortality at all. I think it's vague for a reason, that reason being Spike. He died saving the world with his glowy good soulness and then he came back - complete with effulgence and cross imagery and stuff. I think that's what the prophecy means.

That's just what I think it means, though. What do you think it means, Lorne?

[Edmund Blackadder]

I think that although I see the point people are making with Spike having 'fought' for his soul they disregard the fact that Angel fought to keep his.

It's all well people saying that Angel had his soul placed upon him as a curse but we have to take into account a few things.
One is that second and third time Angel has his soul restored it isn't against Angel's wishes.
Willow gives him his soul back and its likely that he would want her to. We often go back to the initial Gypsy curse but we forget that the two times after, although it is the same enchantment used, Angel wouldn't see it as a curse this time.
He understands what it means to be Angel and the cross he has to bear.
Secondly, it took so much strength to retain his soul. He could have given in but he didn't. Spike knew what was going to happen when the soul was restored, he was, dare I say, prepared for it. He was an evil vampire but for 2+ years he'd been helping the good guys and even fallen for one.
One of the things that the two have in common is that they are doing what is right because it is right NOT because there is a reward at the end of it.
There is also one more thing - Spike.
He got what he wanted. He likes being the Vampire. He likes the strength, the living forever stuff, he got what he truly wanted. He got, more importantly, what he thought Buffy wanted, He believes what Buffy wants is a Super man. If he thought she wanted Mr Normal he wouldn't have got just his soul back, he'd have become human and I think that plays into the whole Shanshu.
The trials he can have anything and he doesn't choose human form, he chooses a simple Soul.

Plus, Angel as a human would be Angel and is something I like the idea of, Spike, well he wouldn't be Spike he wouldn'y have the things that make him different from the geeky original self and I definitely don't think he wants that.

He doesn't want to Shanshu, he just doesn't want Angel to have it.
I would wager that if it emerged that Harmony got a soul and Shanshued, he'd love it(not just for an ironic reason).

No Spike doesn't want it, he deserves it as much, but not more so, than Angel and it wouldn't suit him.

[palabravampiress]

So you think returning to humanity is the most important aspect of the prophecy, then? I'm not entirely convinced on that one, but I'll pretend for a minute.

How do you account for Angel having experienced humanity and given it up because he wanted to be a champion?

You're basically arguing that Spike wouldn't want humanity and that Angel would. I can see where you're coming from, but the fact is, that's only been tested on Angel. Curiously enough, Angel gave it back. That, to me, says neither one wants to shuffle back into their old mortal coils all that much. Although Spike might. I don't know. It hasn't been tested.

The other thing is, the Shan Shu isn't just humanity. It's also redemption and forgiveness. You acknowledge that, although they have very different styles, both vamps fight for the good guys because it's right. Ultimately, they know they're damned. I mean, they both went to Hell (although Angel's stint was of considerably longer duration). They do what's right anyway not because they think they can get a reward, but just because it's right. But if humanity was the price they had to pay to be redeemed and forgiven, don't you think they'd take it? I mean, they both pretty desperately want to be good guys, but they're crippled not only by this horrible past that they share, but also by the fact that they both liked it. I'd argue that, more than anything - more than Buffy, even - they both want to be good, but feel that they never can be quite good enough as long as that past is there. If the Shan Shu offered real forgiveness and redemption for that, don't you think they'd take it? Even if it meant mortality and death? They've both been tortured for less. They've both been killed for less. I think they'd both take humanity and its attendant pleasures and pains for a shot at real redemption.

I think they both deserve and want the Shan Shu. I just think Spike already got it. Or maybe Darla. lol. She died and came back, too. :-)

[Edmund Blackadder]

Angel gave it back and in that moment he was definitely doing it for his ego NOT for Buffy, however look at Angels face at the end of TSILA. The idea that he would ge human again was pleasing to him.

Spike on the other hand, the only way he'd choose humanity is if he could keep his super powers. Spike loves who he is too much. He doesn't seek redemption of forgiveness, he knows who he is, was and to an extent will be.

Neither 'pretty desperately want to be good guys' they are good guys. There is a big difference. Angel has the problem of not dealing with that, that is why he sees being human not so much a reward but that he can be forgiven for his passed life, where as Spike, although would change everything Evil Vamp Spike did in a heartbeat, doesn't dwell because he can differentiate between the two.

Spike knows he has nothing to seek redemption for.

I think my biggest problem with Spike or Darla already shanshuing is because it wasn't dealt with in the show, it was still being fought over who would get it and if Spike or Darla had shanshued the writers would have made it clear thats what had happened.

[Lorne]

That's true, I can't believe I didn't add that in, and yea that's what i was thinking originally that it was voluntary but Joss played that mind game with us for a bit that made it look like it was the bloody chip he wanted out instead of his soul returned to him. Even when his soul was restored I couldn't tell exactly what had happened 'till his eyes lit up and I was like "Oh duh" smack in the face moment lol. And yes, Angel had to fight the entire time even after he signed the ShanShu prophecy to keep his soul so that he could continue to fight the battle, and be the Champion.

[thegifting]

I truly have no idea what 90% of you are saying, by way of terrible grammar and confusingly bizzare thoughts, but here are my ideas on what's being discussed-

1. Shanshu is capitalized only if in refrence to the prophecy, or part of a title. If you're talking about the "live/die" meaning, it's lowercase.
2. Spike means nothing in the long haul of existance. Sure, he's a champion, and yes, he's one of the best the world has, but he's going to die as a vampire (unless some crazy retcon/deus ex happens), and go to hell.
3. Darla never shanshu'd, as one person was saying. She may have returned as a human, but her "person" was killed with her vampire, making her no different. We also see her in S4, appearing to be the angel to Cordelia's demon, but that's the PTB getting involved. When she commited suicide, it was with soul, and to save a human. No, she never did anything to deserve redemption, but the point is that it's not earned. Angel wouldn't deserve it either, when it happens- it'd still be a reward, something given in recognition of efforts, but not directly proportionate to said efforts. Angel could live forever and save the world once every day and still not deserve anything.
4. The point of Angel signing the prophecy wasn't to keep his soul, as someone said, but to sacrafice the shanshu he would receive for playing a key role in the apocalypse, by way of being a Black Thorn. That's a McGuffin, though, because Angel doesn't get to decide these things- he's simply playing a role. Not once do I remember, even, it being said that Angel wouldn't recieve human life if he fought against good in the apocalypse.

[Lorne]

::stretches hands out and grabs the good ole resource "Wikipedia"::

Okay I see some of your points there, but here's the reality and here's what the ShanShu Prophecy really is:

The Shanshu Prophecy reveals that a vampire with a soul will play a major role in the Apocalypse (for good or for evil) and receive a reward ("shanshu") for his efforts[1]. The full text of the prophecy has not been revealed.

Translated, "shanshu" means both "to live" and "to die." Wesley interprets the text as meaning that the vampire with a soul will, at the end of his numerous trials, live as human once more.

------

After the prophecy is introduced, its fulfillment becomes Angel's ultimate goal in his quest for redemption. Because the prophecy does not refer to any particular apocalypse, Angel determines that redemption (rather than a scorecard of good deeds) is the key to Shanshu; he must maintain a constant battle against evil, rather than just try to amass a demonic body-count.

-----

Angel's faith in his role wavers in the fifth season. He takes on a more corporate, bureaucratic approach to fighting evil when he takes control of the Los Angeles branch of Wolfram & Hart, and feels disconnected from his mission. Also, his old rival Spike (another vampire with a soul) is resurrected in L.A.; Spike had recently died as a Champion, sacrificing himself to save the world.

------

Two of Angel's enemies, Eve and Lindsey McDonald, take advantage of the situation; Eve convinces Angel and Spike that the existence of two ensouled vampire Champions is interfering with the Shanshu Prophecy and tearing the bonds of reality. She presents them with a falsified translation of the prophecy, leading them to believe that they can only restore the balance of the universe by competing to drink from the Cup of Perpetual Torment; whoever drinks first will be the one to later become human. Before the hoax is revealed, Spike overpowers Angel and claims the prophesized destiny for himself, proving himself a true contender for Shanshu. Whilst arguing over who the prophecy talked about (Angel or Spike), Spike points out that Angel was cursed with his soul & had no choice in the matter whereas he chose to regain his soul, at which point Angel points out that Spike only did it to get into a girl's pants.

------

Angel later infiltrates the most powerful demon organization in this dimension, the Circle of the Black Thorn, in an attempt to uncover the representatives of the Senior Partners' power in this dimension. They demand a sacrifice from him to prove his loyalty: he is forced to sign away his potential claim to Shanshu, in his own blood, the Circle unable to understand that Angel would do good just for the sake of it rather than for any reward (however, it should be noted that his signature did not resemble his signature from a previous episode). Angel, Spike, and their remaining allies later assassinate each and every member of the Circle, thereby incurring the wrath of the armies of the Senior Partners[2]. As Angel and Spike stand side by side, waiting for the armies to descend, they discuss the Prophecy:

Spike: "What do you think all this means for that Shanshu boogaboo? If we make it through this, does one of us get to be a real boy?"
Angel: "Who are you kiddin'. We're not gonna make it through."
Spike: "Well as long as it's not you."

The series ends as Spike, Angel, Gunn, and Illyria stand alone against the demons and dragons sent by the Senior Partners; the fulfillment of the prophecy remains unresolved.

In the comic book "Angel: After the fall", which is Joss Whedon's canonical season 6, Angel is revealed to be human again. Although it is not yet made clear whether or not this is as a result of the Shanshu prophecy.

----

There you go folks, straight from the source of Wikipedia ...

as Lorne would say "That's all for tonight folks." - Lorne

[Aussie]

After reading these posts (and skipping a few!!) I would have to say that I agree with what palabravampiress has said. To me her explaination makes perfect sense! I have accepted it and cant think of it any other way now :)
What a great thread to read, it really makes ya think hey!?

[Lorne]

Okay Angelus tried destroying the world because he was Angelus, he didn't change when he had his soul removed from receiving perfect happiness with Buffy. Spike again as Wikipedia so delicately put it, and I agree, went to get his soul to get in a girl's (Buffy's) pants. He proves this after he begins to mysteriously work for Lindsey McDonald claiming to be Doyle and then with Angel when he attempts to leave Los Angeles to go find Buffy and say hey I'm back let's shag. That's what he was expecting. I'll admit at the end of Buffy Season 7 he proved himself when he saved the world... but he did it for Buffy, I'm not a hundred percent sure he did it for anyone else.

In season 3 of Buffy there's an episode that's mostly about Xander and getting his 'new/old' car from his uncle but there's a scene where he goes to the school library to find Buffy and the others for help when he sees that (I think that's the case) they're in the middle of an Apocalypse, Angel's fighting with Buffy. He's been with Buffy since day one with the Master bit... Spike only came in around with his chip that was implanted Season 4... and then received his soul in Season 6 because he'd raped Buffy and wanted her to forgive him and fall in love with him.

Angel had more experience with Apocalypses than Spike... and he had more reasons to settle them and fight for his soul. Spike had made his choice that it was for Buffy and Buffy only, that and Spike hasn't 'died'.. well okay I guess in Season 7 he did... but he came back as a ghost, Angel came back in his vampiric form.

I think Wolfram & Hart did that on purpose, I think they intended for Angel to wear the necklace, so that he would have come back as a ghost and remain at Wolfram & Hart, but then Spike got hold of it because it had to be a Champion ... I can't recall the specifics but I knew Buffy couldn't do it for some reason. So yea, Spike came back as a ghost, Angel came back in his true form.... and was about to give up because of the First, tormenting him of his past, but then he over-came that, with the help of Buffy. So in honesty, I truly think Angel is the one who will end up with it... Spike won't give up though without a fight, that much we all know.

[Angel's vision]

I don't read too much into "Destiny" the whole "Translation" was a hoax and what baffles me is the fatc that they; Angel and Spike just had to find this "cup" and drink from it! how easy would that be if that Were the prophesy!

Besides "Shanshu" is an ambigious word, could mean that in the events that have happend like Angel giving his humanity up for the greater good in IWRY and signing it away in NFA that Conner is his Shanshu his humanity and redemption, Conner's effect on Darla gave her redemption, her sacrifice for his life her abilty to have a soul through his, and Angel having something to love and fight for, apart from his mission and have a champion to train to put something good back into the world etc.

Redemption isn't being human it's forgivness for wrongs that were done that the person doesn't deserve to have, "Shanshu" could also be a result of that after the forgivness has been mesched out.

[Lorne]

Connor was not the ShanShu prophecy, that was deciphered in Season 5 when Sarjhan (sorry if it's misspelled) was released in "Origin" and Connor was the one who was supposed to defeat him. Sarjhan had mentioned the whole prophecy was a fake, just a way to get some fun since he couldn't do the actual damage himself. Connor can't be the ShanShu, Jasmine used that against the team in Season 4 when she told how she came to be in existence, that because of the link Lorne gave to Angel to go to the trial for Darla to save her, that Connor was their gift, since he couldn't save Darla as she'd already been brought back from the dead once.

Angel has 'died' once, and was brought back in his vampiric form, Darla was brought back as a human and turned again by Drusilla before Connor was born, and then Connor was born with Darla and Angel, both coming back from the dead.... Angel with a soul, and Darla without one, but with the passion she'd held for centuries and briefly containing a soul before being turned again.

Spike died once with the necklace given to Angel by Wolfram & Hart, and was brought back with his soul. When Angel came back, it wasn't certain that he still had his soul as he showed beastly intentions unless it came to Buffy which he saved.

Connor was not the ShanShu gift. ShanShu is to live or die, it means both, Angel has done both, and Spike has done both, it is a trial of redemption in the end that will determine who receives the ShanShu. Angel has signed the prophecy in its original form with his blood, now whether or not that eliminates his receiving the ShanShu whatever it may be in the end. Now as he keeps fighting anyways, he still seems to have a chance at receiving SOMETHING as atonement for what he's been through.

Spike only keeps fighting in hopes that A: Angel doesn't receive the ShanShu and become a human again, and B: so that he can win Buffy back and win over all against Angel.

Spike has his good qualities though, as he saved that infant in the end, I do believe he has learned to become a better being, with his soul. He didn't go through the same steps that Angel went through the first time around when he was given his soul. Angel was meant to suffer, Spike suffered too but not the same way... well not quite anyways.

[wiccianslayer]

Us?! Disagree? Non! haha. Though I do have to say I completely understand where you're coming from and yes, I suppose with the origin of the nickname 'Spike' we have to accept he did do the torture and maiming scene, but I supoose what I was saying that Angelus was a lot worse. Even Angel said Spike was second to him in all evilness.
But yes, you're right the Shanshu is all about redemption and both our boys are in deep need of it. I just have a lean towards Spike for the Shanshu because of all he went through to get his soul, and how he fought his own nature to be good for Buffy. I mean I know he had the chip stopping him from biting people, but that didn't make him protect Dawn after Buffy was gone. He did care about her a lot and even says to her 'NO. I'm not leaving you to get hurt again'. He has humanity in him even when soulless unlike Angelus, as stated by The Judge, who has none. So maybe....I think I believe Spike can be redeemed but Angel is beyond redemption....I don't know, the more I talk about this the more I get confused.
But I do agree on the one or the other deal. I don't think it would be fair if the Shanshued vamp, whoever it is, also got the Buffster. Romantic? Yes. Fair?No.



I completly agree i meanto be honest i am a major spike fan i am always wanting spike to get the glory when it's deserved but......

now i think this is gonna shock a lotta people on here that know me


But i don't want spike to get the shanshu


Now i do think he deserves it in ever way possible i think he's earned it completly but here's a few reasons i think he shouldn't get it

1)
It would kill him not to be a be to fight demons anymore or protect the people he cares about.

Spike loves the viloence and mayhem he always has and probably always will

2)
If he did get buffy and my god i am praying one day he will (hehe)

let me just point this out

HUMAN BOYS DON'T WORK OUT WITH BUFFY!!!!

it's simple they can't deal with buffy's slayerness

3)
spike already enjoys things he would when human

Food
Alcohol
Hot chocolate with tiny marshmellows
and a big one

Love

(you have no idea how hard it was not to put sex in that list hehe)

4)
and this may seem like a lame reason but it has to be meantion

The vampire thing is extremly extremly sexy

i could go on all day about reasons but i gotta go watch buffy so that's it

for now

[LadyLavinia]

Spike and Angel both are champions to the Powers that Be. They've been through trials that should be impossible.

Why in the hell was it so important that Spike or Angel be recognized as champions? Why in the hell are champions needed in the first place? Does the idea of a empowered individual saving people left and right so appealing, instead of learning how to save or take care of oneself?

[Lorne]

This is something that's gone on since Angel first arrived on Buffy back in Season 1. Giles even considered Angel to be a champion ... someone to help the helpless (no pun intended). The point of this was to have heroes for the side of good, Buffy is a Champion for the Powers That Be. The ultimate fight is against the Senior Partners, and the ancient demons of the earth.

And thank you Angel's Visions for your previous comment.

The Powers That Be have chosen their champions, and two of them are in the run for the ShanShu, that we're aware of: Angel and Spike. Unless the writers go nuts and throw in some big twist. It's a show about fighting for what we believe in and the rewards that we may or may not benefit from the actions we've made.

[Kana]

Ok, wow, I really don't even know where to start. There have already been some fantastic contributions to the thread. Many interesting theories are cropping up and really pushing the thread foward.

Not to be too discriminating but I'll pick a few replies that caught my interest (well they all caught my interest but I unfortunately cannot reply to everyone) to discuss them.

This is something that's gone on since Angel first arrived on Buffy back in Season 1. Giles even considered Angel to be a champion ... someone to help the helpless (no pun intended). The point of this was to have heroes for the side of good, Buffy is a Champion for the Powers That Be. The ultimate fight is against the Senior Partners, and the ancient demons of the earth.


The Powers That Be have chosen their champions, and two of them are in the run for the ShanShu, that we're aware of: Angel and Spike. Unless the writers go nuts and throw in some big twist. It's a show about fighting for what we believe in and the rewards that we may or may not benefit from the actions we've made.

Ok I've actually addressed some of these points on the first page of this thread.

This was in regards to common arguments about the Shanshu Prophecy.

Also most people assume it's a reward but who is doing the rewarding.? The PTBs moral ambiguity has already been mentioned and we know at least one wasn't considered favourable by AI. Remember the prophecy isn't clear on what side the vampire is going to be when the big show goes down, so if he or she destroys humanity, will the so called forces for good, reward him or her? Again this questions whether the Shanshu is about redemption.



2. Spike means nothing in the long haul of existance. Sure, he's a champion, and yes, he's one of the best the world has, but he's going to die as a vampire (unless some crazy retcon/deus ex happens), and go to hell.

Existence and the meaning of it: Should I even go there? What I don't know is how I'd determine who does the judging in the Verse or even if they I'd agree with whatever their credo may be. To state that objectively Spike means nothing in the grand scheme of existence requires at least some form of justification in my opinion but if you didn't find him significant that's fair enough.

3. Darla never shanshu'd, as one person was saying. She may have returned as a human, but her "person" was killed with her vampire, making her no different. We also see her in S4, appearing to be the angel to Cordelia's demon, but that's the PTB getting involved. When she commited suicide, it was with soul, and to save a human. No, she never did anything to deserve redemption, but the point is that it's not earned. Angel wouldn't deserve it either, when it happens- it'd still be a reward, something given in recognition of efforts, but not directly proportionate to said efforts. Angel could live forever and save the world once every day and still not deserve anything.

This is sort of a follow on from the last part but deserving is murky. If we believe Angel when talking to Faith in Sanctuary, they will never make up for all the damage they have caused.

Darla indeed was never mentioned to have been shansh'd however until we find a definitive translation for Shanshu (other than Wesley's interpretation then it becomes difficult. As a general point (and a point to which people have already alluded) living and dying in a vampire's case is ambiguous at best.

4. The point of Angel signing the prophecy wasn't to keep his soul, as someone said, but to sacrafice the shanshu he would receive for playing a key role in the apocalypse, by way of being a Black Thorn. That's a McGuffin, though, because Angel doesn't get to decide these things- he's simply playing a role. Not once do I remember, even, it being said that Angel wouldn't recieve human life if he fought against good in the apocalypse

More or less what I've quoted earlier on (see above).

Angel gave it back and in that moment he was definitely doing it for his ego NOT for Buffy, however look at Angels face at the end of TSILA. The idea that he would ge human again was pleasing to him.

Ah yes IWRY. While Angel is pretty locked in evil fighting mode, it doesn't mean that he wasn't freaked by what the oracles said about her death. It's a matter of opinion if Angel was completely about his ego. He clearly wants to be a soilder fighting the apocalyspe and the argeuments he gave were sound enough to stand up regardless of whether a part of it was due to his ego. The Oracles imply (although you can never tell with those guys) that what happened had nothing to do with the PTBs in that he didn't earn it by saving humanity (and we'll come back to that later) but it was merely an accident. I can believe that Angel would want to be granted humanity as a reward and we can see this from his attitude about the Gem of Amara. He wants to earn his humanity the hard way. The Shanshu, as he understood it originally anyway, would be a great way for that to happen.

More later gtg.

[JCC]

Angel fights 'the good fight' partly because he knows it's right, but also partly because he wants to feel better about himself because of the horrible things he did in his past.

Spike doesn't have that selfish notion of self-satisfaction. He just wants to do what's right.

So while the prophecy may be about Angel, I think Spike deserves it more.

[white avenger]

Angel fights 'the good fight' partly because he knows it's right, but also partly because he wants to feel better about himself because of the horrible things he did in his past.

Spike doesn't have that selfish notion of self-satisfaction. He just wants to do what's right.

So while the prophecy may be about Angel, I think Spike deserves it more.

As much of a Spike fan as I am, and as much as I agree with you that he deserves any award for his attempts at redemption far more than Angel EVER will, Spike began fighting "for the good guys," only after he found that his chip didn't work on demons or vampires. The warrior in Spike craved action. It's as simple as that. He didn't start "doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do," until after he realized that he had romantic feelings for Buffy.

[Lorne]

The point of the ShanShu Prophecy is to determine who deserves the reward and for what reason, did they go for the all because they wanted to get in a Slayer's pants, or did they go for it to gain a balance of recognition with the two of them and the Powers That Be? You have to look at it that way to get the full meaning of the ShanShu Prophecy. It is a collection to be accepted at the end of the final trials of the Apocalypse, which wasn't even defined by Wesley or the Angel crew at all in the previous seasons. There's no real hint that it's been decided that the new fight appearing at the end of Season 5 is the final fight, they just know that it is the biggest one they've seen and may not survive... but both are going for the all.

I think in a way as much as I hate to say it that Angel is going at it not just for himself, and the recognition to receive redemption by the Powers That Be, but as a way to become closer to Buffy, to feel human again. I also think in a weird way, that if it came down to it, he'd let Spike take the ShanShu that was offered, if there was no other real way for him to gain it since he had signed the prophecy, I think he'd rather it be Spike than anyone else that could make Buffy happy if he became human at the end of the Apocalypse, should they all survive... and vise versa with Spike if it was the other way around.

[palabravampiress]

I think I know what you're saying, Lorne. Angel and Spike, to me, seem a lot like brothers. As much as they annoy each other, (and that's a LOT) I think they also respect, understand, and even love each other just as much. I think that if it couldn't be him, Angel would want Spike to Shanshu, because as much as Angel might hate to admit it, Spike is probably the only other person in the world to have given it his all and gone neck and neck with Angel every step of the way. I think if it couldn't be him, Spike would want Angel to Shanshu for the same reason. It's the worthy adversary thing. They've spent so long competing with one another that, if someone else won it, I think they'd both feel like they'd been robbed of something.

Also, I think whichever one ultimately lost between the two would feel a little niggling sense of pride mixed with their disappointment. Angel would be all older brothery and be like, "I taught him that. I was his Yoda. Well I was!" Spike would be like, "Well, I let him have it. I did. I don't need any sodding prophecy. He's Destiny Boy. I'll just go and make my own destiny. That's what I'll do. You see if I don't turn up all Shanshu fresh, myself, in a couple of years." And he'd do it, too. lol. Spike would be proud of Angel - and he'd also probably look forward to figuring out how to best him. They love each other, really. If it went to some ensouled vamp half a world away, I think they'd go out drinking (booze, that is) and console each other and say, "You deserved it more!" "No, you did!" Actually... that would be a funny scene. I kinda wanna watch that scene. lol.

[Lorne]

LOL that would be hysterical, I am gonna have to find a way to draw that one out and scan it in the fan art section. That's too funny, I can so picture them doing that in a comic scene or something, Angel pouring Spike a drink or vice versa be like "Should we beat him to a bloody pulp? We're still vampires after all... he ShanShu'd, he's human now." LOL oh lordy I have to find out how to draw that now! :D

[alexa]

Angel fights 'the good fight' partly because he knows it's right, but also partly because he wants to feel better about himself because of the horrible things he did in his past.

Spike doesn't have that selfish notion of self-satisfaction. He just wants to do what's right.

Wow lets name all the things wrong with this ;)

I think this was disproved when Angel thought he signed away his chances of becoming human and getting ultimate redemption. He pretty much handed it to Spike because there were bigger things on the table, and I'd say that's the opposite of being selfish, or thinking about the good consequences for yourself.

Also as WA states Spike didn't just start fighting on the side of good, simply to do good. He got a soul for Buffy, not to be a champion. He wanted to be with Buffy.. although I guess they played this originally with Angel as well.

Anyway I'm a big Spike and Angel fan, but feel Angel deserves it.. at least first because he's been doing the champion angle longer, on his own, and for selfless reasons. Spike becoming human would feel like someone rudely cut in line to me... just doesn't feel fair. Not saying Spike doesn't deserve a reward eventually.. but I'm still interested in his character being a vampire I guess.

Pity we can't really discuss what's going on in ATF. ;)

[JCC]

Wow lets name all the things wrong with this ;)

I think this was disproved when Angel thought he signed away his chances of becoming human and getting ultimate redemption. He pretty much handed it to Spike because there were bigger things on the table, and I'd say that's the opposite of being selfish, or thinking about the good consequences for yourself.

Also as WA states Spike didn't just start fighting on the side of good, simply to do good. He got a soul for Buffy, not to be a champion. He wanted to be with Buffy.. although I guess they played this originally with Angel as well.

Anyway I'm a big Spike and Angel fan, but feel Angel deserves it.. at least first because he's been doing the champion angle longer, on his own, and for selfless reasons. Spike becoming human would feel like someone rudely cut in line to me... just doesn't feel fair. Not saying Spike doesn't deserve a reward eventually.. but I'm still interested in his character being a vampire I guess.

Pity we can't really discuss what's going on in ATF. ;)

That's the same logic as saying that if someone works for a charity organization to hit on a girl there and ends up saving lives and eventually abandons the girl, they've not done anything good.

Angel didn't do good to do good, Angel did good because a soul was forced onto him. While that doesn't demerit what he does, it wasn't a choice for him.

Also, Angel really only started doing good when he met Whistler, not long before he met Buffy, so saying 'Angel was a champion for like, three more years!' seems a bit pedantic.

[thegifting]

That's the same logic as saying that if someone works for a charity organization to hit on a girl there and ends up saving lives and eventually abandons the girl, they've not done anything good.

Angel didn't do good to do good, Angel did good because a soul was forced onto him. While that doesn't demerit what he does, it wasn't a choice for him.

Also, Angel really only started doing good when he met Whistler, not long before he met Buffy, so saying 'Angel was a champion for like, three more years!' seems a bit pedantic.

What's pedantic is the assumption that a person is forced to do good deeds because they have a soul, only to turn around and point out the flaw in your own logic, as he'd only been a champion for 3 years out of over a hundred. It wasn't a choice? Oh, but it was, but it is.

While Angel may not have been a fulltime 'hero' type before Whistler, he did a fair share of good on his own accord, in between all the grey.

[Lorne]

There's a correction to be made, Angel started doing some good way before he met Buffy or Whistler. If you recall on Angel during his flashbacks, he helped a girl back in the 20s or 30s to save her dog, and then again during World War II he went on the submarine though he didn't have too many choices but still, he did it, to help save the crew that would be sinking at the bottom of the ocean or something like that. Angel did despise the fact of course that he had a soul, but eventually he began to welcome it and more so when he met Buffy, he was grateful to have it. Spike did it purely to get in with Buffy, so she would see he's worth something, not just a tool for war.

[JCC]

Meh. My wuv for Spike clouds my logic.

[palabravampiress]

Spike didn't do it just to get with Buffy.

He did it "to be the kind of man who would never...." He had done wrong. He was horrified by what he'd almost done to someone that he loved. He wanted the thing - the spark - that would make him more man than monster, the thing that would give him pause and make him default to good rather than evil. That, to me, constitutes an earnest desire to do good, not just the desire to get in good with a girl.

I'm not saying that makes him any more or less worthy than Angel. I'm just saying that part of the equation deserves way more consideration than people are giving it in these last few posts.

[thegifting]

He was horrified by what he'd almost done to someone that he loved.
Nooooo, everybody knows that a vampire without a soul is incapable of love, silly. He may have had opinions one way or another, but for him to chose good or evil was simply a product of him weighing the pros and cons of his desires- not some true, good, genuine emotion coming in to play.

[palabravampiress]

Nooooo, everybody knows that a vampire without a soul is incapable of love, silly. He may have had opinions one way or another, but for him to chose good or evil was simply a product of him weighing the pros and cons of his desires- not some true, good, genuine emotion coming in to play.

I disagree.

Didn't the Judge say that Spike and Dru were contaminated with the stink of humanity because they loved as humans do?

[thegifting]

I disagree.

Didn't the Judge say that Spike and Dru were contaminated with the stink of humanity because they loved as humans do?

I cannot confirm or deny that, but they did "love" as humans do- physically, mentally, with words and gestures. I think the being sweet thing is what would be in question there, not that they have human emotions.

[Tranquillity]

There's a correction to be made, Angel started doing some good way before he met Buffy or Whistler. If you recall on Angel during his flashbacks, he helped a girl back in the 20s or 30s to save her dog, and then again during World War II he went on the submarine though he didn't have too many choices but still, he did it, to help save the crew that would be sinking at the bottom of the ocean or something like that. Angel did despise the fact of course that he had a soul, but eventually he began to welcome it and more so when he met Buffy, he was grateful to have it. Spike did it purely to get in with Buffy, so she would see he's worth something, not just a tool for war.

acctually, if you watch Why We Fight real close you'll see that Angel goes on the sub not to so much help the sailors as he does to rescue Spike, who he knows is on the ship, well that's always been my interpretation anyway... Angel's history of helping others was pretty sketchy prior to meeting whistler, yeah he rescues the dog and he tried to help the girl in the hotel but he acctually spent a lot of time sitting around and brooding about his past. But when he was called forth to action by Whistler he responded becasue he wanted to be a better man. Angel does good, is good because he wants to make up for his heineous past. Angel is good and deserves the Shanshu.

Spike also has a heinious past, was chipped involuntarily and was forced into changing his ways. It was a case of adapt or die. He became kinda good (when it suited him) At first it was opportunism, later he had the other motives of Buffy and Dawn. He went to get his soul, not to 'get into a girls pant' as Angel crudely puts it (because, well, he already did that) - he went to get the soul because he was sick of being nothing and as Palavampiress said - "so he could be the kind of man who would never..., so he could be a kind of man". In short, he wanted to be a better man. Spike says he's not worried so much about atonement and redemption but he does worry about what he does in the 'now' and apart from under the influence of the first, we don't see him conflicted about doing right or wrong. Spike is good and deserves the Shanshu.

I read somewhere a theory that likened Spike and Angel to some mythic greek twins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux) who lived part time as human and part time as divine - so this theory was that Spike and Angel would share the Shanshu somehow.

Me? I want neither to get it - they're comic book heroes now - they need to be superpowered not human.

[thegifting]

Me? I want neither to get it - they're comic book heroes now - they need to be superpowered not human.

That's terrible to me. I want Angel's story to end as some point, properly and with dignity. Not now- it's going to take time to put a real cohesion to things, finality to affairs. But seriously, if I'm still following Angel in 16 years with no end in sight, I'm going to murder Joss and then commit suicide.

[palabravampiress]

That's terrible to me. I want Angel's story to end as some point, properly and with dignity. Not now- it's going to take time to put a real cohesion to things, finality to affairs. But seriously, if I'm still following Angel in 16 years with no end in sight, I'm going to murder Joss and then commit suicide.

Really? You've already been following him for ten years.

As a soap fan, I've gotta say... I like open-ended stories the best. I'm sad when books and movies and traditional TV series end. To me, the best possible outcome would be for Buffy and Angel to continue indefinitely.

That said, I also like the idea of them splitting the Shanshu somehow. I think that would be most fair. I mean, I think they both deserve it. I want them both to win. If one wins, I'll feel sorry for the other.

(But I'm still pulling for Spike just a little bit more than Angel... especially after last night's nightmare in which Angel tried to kill me.)

[Tranquillity]

That's terrible to me. I want Angel's story to end as some point, properly and with dignity. Not now- it's going to take time to put a real cohesion to things, finality to affairs. But seriously, if I'm still following Angel in 16 years with no end in sight, I'm going to murder Joss and then commit suicide.

I didn't say i didn't want an end - i just don't neccessarily want it to involve the shanshu and one or the other becoming human.

[Lorne]

The Judge did say something to that nature about Dru and Spike, I think he was annoyed by it too lol, but yea he did say they shared too much human emotions together, more or less. Spike had his desires, he was obsessed with Buffy, perhaps getting the soul was a way for him to try to control those obsessions that nearly made him destroy her.

[TheHeartist]

Are we ignoring the fact that Angel is already human now? Wouldn't this technically make Spike the only vampire with a soul, thus the only one eligable for the prophecy?

Plus, I've always thought it would be cool (not to mention SO something Joss would do) if the vampire with a soul in question has to CHOOSE between Buffy and being Shanshued. Decisions eh?

[palabravampiress]

^ That does put a new spin on things. The vamp in question there said he didn't believe it was the Shanshu, but that's really all we have to go on. Maybe it is the Shanshu and this question has already been decided for us in the comics. What do you think?

[TheHeartist]

It's a interesting way for both to become human, because as many people have already stated, they both deserve it

[Vampmogs]

Taking a completely out-of-the-verse perspective here, I don't think it makes much sense for Spike to get the Shanshu. I don't think it makes a great deal of sense for his character's arc to get it, when becoming human was never expressed as a desire by his character or a point of his character's evolution. It'd feel like it came out of completely left field if he became human.

Angel's wanted to be human from very early on. At least textually from as early on as 'I Will Remember You' and there's a valid argument in saying before that, probably around 'The Prom.' A big tragedy for his character is that he couldn't give Buffy the life she deserved because of his circumstances, it'd make sense he'd have seriously started wishing he was human ever since he began a relationship with her. It's also a dream Buffy shared for Angel to, as she states to him in 'I Will Remember You.'

And the