Selfless

[GATEGOD]

One of her best episodes! She speaks swedish!! turns someone into a troll!! sings!!! crys!! kills!! sacrifices!!!
Well I loved it, it was very sad for Xander/Anya, Buffy definitely not a good friend. Anya was great kicking B's ass. haha
Anyways I thought this was one of her best episodes, not the best but one of them.
What do you think her best? second best ^_^ 3rd? Definitely one of the great ones!
"You're apologizing to me what fight are you watching? or is this one of your pop culture references I don't get because I'm a vengou.."
Then she gets stabbed and the scene ends :cry: then we just see a flashback to the day of the musical which was cute
I was happy, the scene gave me enough time to realize she can't be dead, hal was stabbed before and lived.
Then as she sings they cut back to her stabbed body and there are tears on her face :cry: so sad.
The fact that she says she wants to take it back was so beautiful :(
I could go on I loved this episode! :cheering:

[sosa lola]

I wouldn't say that Buffy is not a good friend, she was doing her job, and Anya had made the choice to kill, so I can see where Buffy was coming from.

[GATEGOD]

I just don't see the difference between Evil Willow and Demon Anya... atleast Anya was sorry for what she did when she was still a demon!! Yet Buffy didn't want to help her only willow...

[sosa lola]

Put in mind that Buffy knew that Anya was a demon and was doing her game long before she decided to kill her. Anya should have been stopped before Selfless, not by killing her, but by trying to make her not grant wishes, because even though the men she cursed were jerks, they didn't deserve Anya's way of punishments.

[GATEGOD]

Buffy couldn't care less about Anya and in later eps Anya couldn't care less about Buffy, why couldn't they just like each other lol!!

[Keanoite]

Buffy and Willow never liked Anya, she filled Cordy's role pretty perfectly...the only other character besides Xander that really was friends with Anya was Andrew

[sosa lola]

Poor Anya. :lol:

But she had it coming for being so tactless with mostly everybody, even her boyfriend. :D I don't think Anya cared about the Scoobies as much as she cared about Xander, she was always willing to run away with Xander, and not the others up until Chosen when she figured that she cared about humans and was going to fight for them.

[Keanoite]

Poor Anya. :lol:

But she had it coming for being so tactless with mostly everybody, even her boyfriend. :D I don't think Anya cared about the Scoobies as much as she cared about Xander, she was always willing to run away with Xander, and not the others up until Chosen when she figured that she cared about humans and was going to fight for them.

In her defense she was 1120 years old, functioning in society wasn't exactly her thing and like I said, her and the Scoobies didn't really for each other so from Amya's perspective why would she run with them??

[Edmund Blackadder]

Don't forget that Anya was there by choice, Willow was grieving and trying to cope.

[GATEGOD]

Buffy should have gotten Anya to take Dawn away! She would have gotten the job done!! :p

lol how did we end up on Chosen?

[Keanoite]

I have no idea! we never stay on topic anyway! It's too hard!

[Jade In The Sky]

lol nice dialogue you had there :D I was really glad that they gave Anya a whole episode centered around her, well a whole like 90% which is something. I spent a lot of time not liking her ( she always got on my nerves with the exception of season 6 that is ) but during this epi I remember I honestly felt for her. When you see a person who has sunk so deep and nobody's there for them is really heart-breaking. And I really got her, you know being so odd even for the scoobies to understand her and to help her when she needed it the most.

I guess the reaction of Buffy was predictable. She always had to make the tough decisions and I think she became too burdened and had lost some of her belief in redemption. Of course later on in the season she gradually changed her attitude due to Spike but at this stage she just had to make a quick decision.

As for Will, well she is Will. She always helps and even though she didn't get Anya before really well or liked her, having gone through a veeery difficult time she could at least understand her now. :)

[palabravampiress]

I just don't see the difference between Evil Willow and Demon Anya... atleast Anya was sorry for what she did when she was still a demon!! Yet Buffy didn't want to help her only willow...

I think that for Buffy, there were two major differences between the willow/Spike scenarios and the Anya scenarios: 1. First, there was the chance to mend the problem. Willow was stopped in time. She only killed on person, and that one person wasn't terribly innocent, either. I think Buffy wanted to save Willow like she couldn't save Faith in earlier seasons. Willow was not yet beyond the point of no return. What Willow did was horrible, yes, but even most juries would be relatively sympathetic to someone who went berserk and killed her lover's murderer. 2. Second, there were obvious signs of the killer being used like a puppet instead of killing of his own free will. Spike fought to be "the kind of man who would never... a kind of man." He claimed to have no memory of subsequent killings. When he accidentally killed the guy who was the slug, he freaked. When he thought he was killing again, he even went so far as to ask Buffy to end him. All of this tipped Buffy off to the idea that this new enemy of theirs might be using Spike. Anya's situation was different.

Anya had been a demon and adjusted to her new humanity. But when she was hurt, she chose to go BACK to killing people. As the most reasonable of the scoobies, it's even fair to say that she did it with a relatively clear head. The frat boys were innocents. Anya acted under no one else's influence. It was a purely mercenary contract kill. I don't think Buffy saw any way to bring Anya back from that. Willow and Spike could be brought back from the brink with love and faith and a little bit of intervention. Anya had already had all of that, but she had chosen to go back to killing in a detached, cold-blooded manner. It was only when Anya offered her own life and soul to undo the damage she had caused that Buffy saw that Anya was not a heartless, remorseless killer. Intention means a lot to Buffy -- even more than action, I would argue -- when she makes her judgments about who lives and who dies.

[GATEGOD]

Anya was sorry for what she did, she just never told them. You could see throughout the episode she was sorry for it. She couldn't tell anyone because no one cared. One day everyone was her friend, the next there not. Buffy thought Anya couldn't be brought back only because she really didn't care. I thought she would care your reasoning still doesn't help me understand why she was being such a bitch.
They new Anya did things like this before, Spike,Angel all evil things turned good did. So when she goes bad again instead of even trying to help her she tries to kill her... She COULD HAVE tried to help her. She tries to help all her other friends.. and enemies... Buffy clearly wasn't herself.

After what she did by turning the guy into a worm you'd think they would go to her and talk to her... they don't so she continues. What are friends for :/

[palabravampiress]

I agree that Buffy did act a little out of character in not trying to redeem/help Anya first. Maybe she was rushed by the whole "From beneath you, it devours" thing?

[GATEGOD]

Yea and crazy spike seemed to be on her mind too. But she felt in character through every part not dealing with Anya which bothered me

[Keanoite]

I think there was an understanding of sorts between Anya and Buffy. They were never really friends, Xander was their only connection. However, I think when it came to the slaying they understood each other. Anya saw Buffy's role in the Scoobie gang clearer than anyone and had admiration for her without over doing it. Both Buffy and Anya had been waiting for a confrontation to happened beetween them. Months had passed since the Wedding and Buffy did nothing to Anya knowing she was exacting vengence. It was only with the worm guy that it became something that Buffy couldn't ignore anymore. Anya had made it clear she didn't want any Scooby help, so really what was Buffy supposed to do? Her loyalty would always be to Xander first, just as Anya's was. In Selfless, neither Buffy or Anya got any joy out of having to fight. They both seemed upset that it had come to that. I don't think either of them were acting out of character. They were both strong, willful women who were doing their jobs. Anya got the same chance to prove herself as did Angel, Spike, Willow and Xander. At the time she asked to be made a demon again she clearly was devastated but she had months to take it back, she could have broken her power centre. Anya knew what becoming a vengence demon meant, which meant accepting the repecusions. I don't think it's fair to call Buffy a bad friend becuase she did her job.

[GATEGOD]

Months had passed since the Wedding and Buffy did nothing to Anya knowing she was exacting vengence. It was only with the worm guy that it became something that Buffy couldn't ignore anymore. Anya had made it clear she didn't want any Scooby help, so really what was Buffy supposed to do? Her loyalty would always be to Xander first, just as Anya's was.

That's just it, Xander ruined Anya, and Buffy takes his side, helps him. Helps him with what feeling sorry that he ruined someones life... She should have went to Anya, tried harder. Evil Willow didn't want Buffy's help .. yet she gave it. Angelus didn't want her help yet she tried to help get Angel back. Anya was hurt and all her friends abandoned her. She had been with them for 3 years now? They were friends. They were her bride's maids. The people she trusted most, and they sided with the person who hurt her and tore out her heart, of course she didn;t what there help after they did that. That doesn't mean they abandoned there friend and wait for her to mess up so they (she) can kill her. Willow still tried to help as did Xander. Buffy spent all her time thinking of how and when she would kill her, knowing the day would come and didn't do anything to stop it.

[sosa lola]

That's just it, Xander ruined Anya, and Buffy takes his side, helps him. Helps him with what feeling sorry that he ruined someones life... She should have went to Anya, tried harder.

I think the sad truth is that Anya isn't really close to Buffy. Xander, however, is Buffy's best friend. Buffy saw how his actions had hurt him, and that was why she was there for him. I don't think she approved of what he had done to Anya, though.

[Keanoite]

That's just it, Xander ruined Anya, and Buffy takes his side, helps him. Helps him with what feeling sorry that he ruined someones life... She should have went to Anya, tried harder. Evil Willow didn't want Buffy's help .. yet she gave it. Angelus didn't want her help yet she tried to help get Angel back. Anya was hurt and all her friends abandoned her. She had been with them for 3 years now? They were friends. They were her bride's maids. The people she trusted most, and they sided with the person who hurt her and tore out her heart, of course she didn;t what there help after they did that. That doesn't mean they abandoned there friend and wait for her to mess up so they (she) can kill her. Willow still tried to help as did Xander. Buffy spent all her time thinking of how and when she would kill her, knowing the day would come and didn't do anything to stop it.

I'm not being smart but why would Buffy try harder? She and Anya were not the friends that you are making them out to be. Not once did she and Buffy do anything as friends that Xander wasn't involved in. Yeah she picked them as her Bridesmaids but if not them then who? She didn't know anyone else, not really.Anya was on the fringes of the group just like Spike. The Scoobies weren't her friends and she tells Buffy that in season 7. The simple fact that Anya CHOSE to become a demon again and stayed that way can't be ignored. By doing that she not only wasn't Buffy's friend, she was now her enemy. You keep saying that Buffy should have tried harder but Anya WANTED to be a demon, there was no way she was going to change back esecially under the encouragement of someone she doesn't even like that much. She knew what she was doing, maybe not in the moments directly after the wedding but later on, she knew. That's the difference between Anya and every other Scooby who went postal. She decided to be evil, the rest had it happen to them.

[GATEGOD]

That is just it again, she never became 'EVIL' she became a demon. Demon's aren't evil. You have seen Merl, Angel,Clem... and others. Becoming a demon doesn't mean you become evil. That is a misconception. She reverted back to the only thing she knew how to do wouldn't you if you were all alone with no one even trying to help you. She was with these people for years, she thought they cared about her. Not even Xander went to see her... mainly because he was the one to break her heart. When Willow sees her again they act as if they are still friends, because they somewhat were. You don't have to like all your friends lol. Plus Buffy still isn't convincing me that "oh because she really wasn't completely my bff like you Willow, I'm going to wait a few months til she kills someone, so I can kill her..." Buffy as you said new something like this would eventually happen... why didn't she try to stop it, she is the slayer after all, it is her job.

[Keanoite]

why didn't she try to stop it, she is the slayer after all, it is her job
she did try an stop it and that appears to be what you have a problem with.

No matter what spin you put on this Anya was a mass murderer. She exacted vengence on men for over 1000 years, she may not have been evil in the obvious way that Angelus and Willow were but she wasn't of the good either. She killed, she maimed and she caused disease. It wouldn't be hard to argue that she was infact worse, in terms of carnage caused, than any other enemy that Buffy faced.

Ok if you want Buffy to help Anya how do you propose she do that? really?

[GATEGOD]

You do realize that Anya from pre season 3 was a completely different person from the Anya we know and love. Anya in season 7 when she is a 'demon' again is nothing like the old Anya nor does she even think she can be again. She is sad over the littlest things, and when she finally does kill the people who were making fun of a girl and laughing at her all 10 of them poking fun of her for no reason at all so she grants the girl her wish, she didn't kill those people, the girl did. If she never wished for it, it would have never happened. She even says after words "What have I done" she couldn't believe it, and was so sad and upset over it. Evil people don't get upset over things like that... do they? No.

she did try an stop it and that appears to be what you have a problem with.
Then why did you say this??
Both Buffy and Anya had been waiting for a confrontation to happened between them. Months had passed since the Wedding and Buffy did nothing to Anya knowing she was exacting vengence.
She didn't try and calm her down, tell her how sorry she was, comfort her, make her stop. She waited til after there were dead bodies to even see her... very good, Buffy should have been there for her, even if you think they weren't friends they still were together for 3 years and not doing anything for her in 3 months... isn't the characteristics of a good person which Buffy was at least should have been.

After that Buffy goes to her in the next episode and saves her from a demon that is trying to kill her , obviously Buffy cares about her, even if you think they aren't friends. she even says "I don't want my friends out there alone right now." So clearly!!!! they are friends, once you accept that you can easily see why I think Buffy should have done something in that time before she granted that girls Wish.

[Keanoite]

She is sad over the littlest things, and when she finally does kill the people who were making fun of a girl and laughing at her all 10 of them poking fun of her for no reason at all so she grants the girl her wish, she didn't kill those people, the girl did. If she never wished for it, it would have never happened. She even says after words "What have I done" she couldn't believe it, and was so sad and upset over it. Evil people don't get upset over things like that... do they? No.
Are you serious? thats your argument for Anya not being responsible for those deaths? I'm sorry that is utterly ridiculous. If it had been Buffy or Dawn or Xander who that girl said that passing comment to would those frat boys have been murdered? No. Why? cuz they are not vengence demons. Anya was. ANYA killed them not the girl, no matter how you twist what happened their blood is on Anya's hands, no one elses'.

She didn't try and calm her down, tell her how sorry she was, comfort her, make her stop.
You are clearly a huge Anya fan so in what bizzaro reality do you think that Anya would have let any of the above happen? NOBODY was going to talk Anya out of becoming a demon again, least of all Buffy. I cannot stress this anymore, Anya CHOSE to become a demon again. She was in complete possession of her senses and rationality when she granted those wishes. It's not like Buffy could pull out a yellow crayon story to wow her with. Anya didn't need to be talked down from the proverbial ledge, she KNEW what she was doing the whole time.

Quote:
she did try an stop it and that appears to be what you have a problem with.

Then why did you say this??

Quote:
Both Buffy and Anya had been waiting for a confrontation to happened between them. Months had passed since the Wedding and Buffy did nothing to Anya knowing she was exacting vengence

I don't see what point your trying to make here? Buffy tried to stop Anya in Selfless after months of leaving her be an letting her deal. I didn't say that Buffy and Anya weren't friends I said they weren't as good as friends as you portrayed them as. Buffy knows what its like to have your heart broken so she didn't go after Anya until she was left with no other choice. Anya didn't want her help.

[GATEGOD]

You are clearly a huge Anya fan so in what bizzaro reality do you think that Anya would have let any of the above happen? NOBODY was going to talk Anya out of becoming a demon again, least of all Buffy. I cannot stress this anymore, Anya CHOSE to become a demon again. She was in complete possession of her senses and rationality when she granted those wishes. It's not like Buffy could pull out a yellow crayon story to wow her with. Anya didn't need to be talked down from the proverbial ledge, she KNEW what she was doing the whole time.


Anya: "What have I done" ...

Anya didn't want her help.

Of course she didn't want there help, that doesn't mean she didn't need it. Would you want the help of people who sided with the person who broke your heart and shattered everything you were and wanted to be? I doubt it, but maybe you would. Idk, but Anya didn't. She felt that they left and abandoned her and she was right.

XANDER: I want to help you.

ANYA: Everyone is so considerate today. I should've slaughtered people weeks ago.

XANDER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for everything I did to you. Everything I put you through.

ANYA: Thank you. All better. Thank goodness you got here in time.

Sarcastically she said every line, obviously she wanted them even if she wouldn't say it, to come help her, they didn't and she had no one to turn to except her only friend .. a killer demon who told her it was alright to do these things.

Buffy is just one , every single one of them is at fault.

[Kemy]

"After" she'd ripped 12 peoples Hearts out. And I worked it out after the episode, at only *1* fatality every fortnight, Anya would have killed 30,000 people by the time she stopped in Season 3.

[Keanoite]

Anya: "What have I done" ...
She still knew what she was doing when she granted that wish, what she wasn't prepared for was it it wold make her feel.

Of course she didn't want there help, that doesn't mean she didn't need it. Would you want the help of people who sided with the person who broke your heart and shattered everything you were and wanted to be? I doubt it, but maybe you would. Idk, but Anya didn't. She felt that they left and abandoned her and she was right. So what? none of the things she did were her fault becuase she didn't have good friends?

XANDER: I want to help you.

ANYA: Everyone is so considerate today. I should've slaughtered people weeks ago.

XANDER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for everything I did to you. Everything I put you through.

ANYA: Thank you. All better. Thank goodness you got here in time.

Ok so Buffy comes to Anya and gets the brush off like here with Xander. What does she do next? Anya didn't want her help, Buffy knows that. How does she force Anya to accept her help? How does Buffy save Anya from herself?

[GATEGOD]

At 50 seconds on this YouTube - Best of Buffy - Final Season (http://youtube.com/watch?v=E_5Dz6ljj0k) it shows how sorry she was, she never was evil, she never knew how much evil she had done, she never knew how much hate and saddness it could cause, as a vengeance demon she never cared, she loved it, but once she became human again everything changed, and she was never the same again. Xander changed her and changed her for the better. She became a better person and when she became a vengeance demon again she thought those sort of feelings would go away and they didn't. She was barely doing any real vengeance and when she did, she lost it and took it back, wanting to give up her own life for people she didn't know because she was so heartbroken, again evil people don't do that ^.^ Just because you love Buffy doesn't mean she along with the rest of them weren't at fault. She a little more so only because Xander tried to stop Buffy from Killing Anya, and Willow tried to get D'hofran to make Anya no longer a Vengeance demon. Buffy grabbed a sword lol. They were friends no mater what any one else thinks, and they should have tried to comfort her even if she pushed them away. If your friend goes crazy and starts hurting people you try and help them, not kill them ^.^ "Causing pain sounds really cool I know, but turns out it's really upsetting, didn't used to be." She didn't do anything terribly evil in 3 months was it? So why didn't they talk to her if she wasn't killing people? They talked to spike when he was a demon lol. They should have tried even if you think trying to help a friend that doesn't want your help is stupid.I think it's the right thing to do and why you are friends in the first place. Buffy just acted too completely non Buffy when she went after Anya saying she was thinking about for so long, if that even is true then she should have tried to help her!!!! haha I know you disagree and I can't seem to care because 3 months of waiting for someone to slip so you can kill them instead of 3 months of talking and helping someone who is pushing you away, sounds harder I know but it's what I really thought Buffy would have done. Willow too, Xander... Not so much because she'd probably through a plate at his head, she wouldn't do that to the others. Anyways, They should have, could have, and didn't help her when she needed it. So Each of them is responsible, Anya, Buffy, Xander, and Willow.

[Keanoite]

she never was evil
I don't for a second believe that you could claim she wasn't evil. In her day she was as bad as Vengence demons came, just like Angelus was to vampires. I get that you don't want your fav character to have been evil and just cuz we only saw glances of what she did doesn't change the fact that she was ruthless.

, she never knew how much evil she had done, she never knew how much hate and saddness it could cause, as a vengeance demon she never cared, she loved it, but once she became human again everything changed, and she was never the same again. Xander changed her and changed her for the better. She became a better person and when she became a vengeance demon again she thought those sort of feelings would go away and they didn't. Again I disagree. Of all the Scoobies Anya was the one who was the most aware of what good and evil meant. She got that. I agree she became a better person through Xander, so one would imagine that she would be even less inclined to become a vengence demon again cuz now she understood humanity on a whole new level, including the hurt she was causing. She felt bad, rightly so,but that was just for the frat boys. What about all the others over a millenium that she hurt?

You said something about me thinking helping friends who don't want it is stupid. Quite the opposite actually, I will do everything in my power to help my friends but at the end of the day you can only help if people let you. Talking to someone can only go so far. Anya had to want to change herself, she had to reach rock bottom, and when her actions got Halfreck killed she did.

[GATEGOD]

I clearly meant she wasn't evil when she turned back into a vengeance demon, it's clear she wasn't.
Again I disagree. Of all the Scoobies Anya was the one who was the most aware of what good and evil meant. She got that. I agree she became a better person through Xander, so one would imagine that she would be even less inclined to become a vengence demon again cuz now she understood humanity on a whole new level, including the hurt she was causing. She felt bad, rightly so,but that was just for the frat boys. What about all the others over a millenium that she hurt?
She cared about them just not as much as the ones she just hurt and killed. She was a good person when she did these things so she feels horrible, she doesn't feel horrible that she was doing her job when she was an evil bitch lol.

Again,"""' Xander changed her and changed her for the better. She became a better person and when she became a vengeance demon again she thought those sort of feelings would go away and they didn't. She was barely doing any real vengeance and when she did, she lost it and took it back, wanting to give up her own life for people she didn't know because she was so heartbroken, again evil people don't do that ^.^ Just because you love Buffy doesn't mean she along with the rest of them weren't at fault. She a little more so only because Xander tried to stop Buffy from Killing Anya, and Willow tried to get D'hofran to make Anya no longer a Vengeance demon. Buffy grabbed a sword lol. They were friends no mater what any one else thinks, and they should have tried to comfort her even if she pushed them away. If your friend goes crazy and starts hurting people you try and help them, not kill them ^.^ "Causing pain sounds really cool I know, but turns out it's really upsetting, didn't used to be." She didn't do anything terribly evil in 3 months was it? So why didn't they talk to her if she wasn't killing people? They talked to spike when he was a demon lol. They should have tried even if you think trying to help a friend that doesn't want your help is stupid.I think it's the right thing to do and why you are friends in the first place. Buffy just acted too completely non Buffy when she went after Anya saying she was thinking about for so long, if that even is true then she should have tried to help her!!!! haha I know you disagree and I can't seem to care because 3 months of waiting for someone to slip so you can kill them instead of 3 months of talking and helping someone who is pushing you away, sounds harder I know but it's what I really thought Buffy would have done. Willow too, Xander... Not so much because she'd probably through a plate at his head, she wouldn't do that to the others. Anyways, They should have, could have, and didn't help her when she needed it. So Each of them is responsible, Anya, Buffy, Xander, and Willow."""'

What i said sums up my feelings, they should have tried I know you think they should have waited for her to kill people until they tried to help her but I think they should have helped her before she hurt anyone.

Anya had to want to change herself, she had to reach rock bottom, and when her actions got Halfreck killed she did.

You are wrong she wanted to change what she did and who she was after she did it, no one asked her what she wanted,they just assumed she liked what she did, and when they finally did, she told them she wanted to take it back and give up her own life, way before they killed Hallie

[Keanoite]

Ok so you think the scoobies should have been better friends, fine but I think Anya should have been better herself. Maybe it's because it's the way I look at things but only yourslef can be responsible for what you do. I will never argue that she was hurt but at the end of the day she did it all, not her friends. She was in control of her actions and ultimately she is the only one who can be held responsible. No one makes anyone do anything, not really. People can hurt you, ignore you, whatever, if it affects the choices you make it's becuase you allow it to. People have as much power over you as you give them and lets face it Buffy had no power over Anya. Ever. All I'm saying is that if Anya had really wanted to stop at any time before Selfless she could have, she didn't need anyone to do it for her, she had to stop herself.

[GATEGOD]

lol Fine, she was completely at fault in your eyes. I will never not believe that if her friends were there for her she never would have reverted to a vengeance demon nor would she have killed anyone.

Yay we done? ^_^

[Keanoite]

Oh please God I hope so!

[GATEGOD]

Lets talk more about how sad it was for Anya ^_^

[Jade In The Sky]

lol Jeee I tried I really tried to read everything you two wrote but I'm going out now so I'm saying what I think. Maybe I have said it before and missed the post but oh well.

On the question how could have Anya reaching the bottom without anyone helping her and if it was worth it helping her:

1/ The script sucks. As some other times we have to concluded for ourselves b/c it's not cleared there and I do believe that the only reason to make it this way is b/c Joss likes it dark and twisty. BUT b/c of all the fans around the world of Joss I have point 2 :)

2/ Maybe the reason they didn't help her is b/c:

2.1 All through s6 each of them was wrapped up in their own business, especially Buffy, so it's natural they go on this way some more months neglecting the problems until there are bad consequences
2.2 Because they subconsciously were glad they didn't have to deal with Anya with all their problems, they needed some major time-off and decided to neglect AGAIN the signs for serious trouble in the air
2.3 Because even though they liked Anya they thought going away from her and leaving her do what she wants was the best thing they could do.

You decide which point suits you. I think it's a twisted combination of the three. When you have had too much bad days and you need some time off, you neglect every saurce of negative energy which would be Anya and relieve yourself with the sentence: I'm sure she'll be alright. She's a tough girl.

And the saddest truth? Yeah, they didn't care enough. Who's fault is that? Noone's, it's an incompatibility of characters problem. And Buffy isn't supposed to be Superman and be a therapist though everyone seems to expect her to be one. So don't point the finger at her so much. Besides, she's always been a bit wrapped up in herself. Willow's ( and Xand maybe ) the most observing and helping by emotional support one.

[white avenger]

As has been pointed out, Anya never really liked the Scoobies, and was treated for the most part as an outsider, never allowed to forget that she had been a rather malolent creature for a long tome, and was responsible for countless relatively innocent lives. Everyone except Xander only tolerated her, accepting her help and assistance without ever thanking her for it. The only reason she ever even hung around with the others was her feelings for Xander. For his sake, she tolerated them, the same as they tolerated her.

Kinda reminds me of the Buffy/Spike relationship, right down to the fact that two once powerful demons could no longer harm humans, one because of a chip, the other from being stripped of her powers by her "pimp," D'Hoffran. Except, of course, that Buffy was never as openly hostile to Anya as Xander was of Spike.

[white avenger]

Miss K, be warned: slowly, quietly, bit by tiny bit, I am craftily going to completely turn your way of thinking around until you are as avid a Spuffy fanatic as I am. Then, while you're still reeling from that, I'm gonna introduce you to the wonderful world of John Wayne. Your time as a Bangel is swiftly drawing to a conclusion. Know this and be afraid!!!

[Keanoite]

Miss K, be warned: slowly, quietly, bit by tiny bit, I am craftily going to completely turn your way of thinking around until you are as avid a Spuffy fanatic as I am. Then, while you're still reeling from that, I'm gonna introduce you to the wonderful world of John Wayne. Your time as a Bangel is swiftly drawing to a conclusion. Know this and be afraid!!!

Hold on a minute, lets not go COMPLETELY crazy! There is no force on this planet, not even you!, that could make me turn my back on Bangel. It will never happen. I've laid down my roots and I ain't moving for no one!!

And as far as The Duke goes, I assure you sir no introdution is necessary.The Quiet Man is one of my most loved films. It is shown here EVERY St.Patrick's Day.

[white avenger]

Then maybe we can compromise on Spuffangel...

[Edmund Blackadder]

This was a very interesting topic to read but please, White and Keonite, dn't turn this into another off topic Spike/Buffy vs Angel/Buffy thread. It's actually getting quite boring and ridiculous.

[GATEGOD]

This was a very interesting topic to read but please, White and Keonite, dn't turn this into another off topic Spike/Buffy vs Angel/Buffy thread. It's actually getting quite boring and ridiculous.

:lmao::lmao::lmao: I would always love to discuss the more finer points of this episode. Fell free to throw a hateful idea about Anya my way and I'll bat it down, and bury it so far in the ground you'll never find it!! Then I'll come up with my own idea and smack you with it til you agree!!! :lmao: okay so maybe not exactly like that, but somewhere along the lines, so it would be fun ^_^ Or we could talk about the stories that happened after this because of what happened within the episode. We could talk about what happened to spike. We could talk about the change in Buff. We could talk about Willow helping Anya. We could talk about the cute Xander/Anya scenes. We could talk about...

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

i have a random comment about selfless. in the spell willow does to call d'hoffryn, it's actually similar to the version anya was using in 'something blue', only it is in latin. i never realized they were the same till i saw it in the script...unless of course it is a bad source, but i think its good :).

[GATEGOD]

i have a random comment about selfless. in the spell willow does to call d'hoffryn, it's actually similar to the version anya was using in 'something blue', only it is in latin. i never realized they were the same till i saw it in the script...unless of course it is a bad source, but i think its good :).

I would have never known that, ever ^_^ haha nice find : king :

[TrueVengeance]

I LOVE love love this episode (almost as much as The Gift)! You don't see many Anya episodes, and I think this one does a really good job of explaining what exactly has been running through her mind. How she doesn't want to feel remorse about what she does, but she does feel it anyway. At the end when she offered herself up, I think she truly wanted to die at that point. She didn't have anything else to live for...which I think says alot as well.

As for Buffy, I don't think it was ooc for her, nor was she a bad friend. She had never been close to Anya like Xander...or god even Willow had. Buffy
had been pretty tolerant with Anya so far I think. Remember that Willow was only evil for a day or so, and Anya was a demon for months. And these killings weren't the first issue...we know other wishes haven't gone so well either (worm???)

[buffetofsporks]

Really good Anya episode, I think. She has depth, and she's one of my favorites...

However. :)

This whole issue is rather simple. Let's break it down, shall we?

1. Buffy fights AND KILLS vampires, demons, and the forces of evil...

2. When Anya killed those fratboys ... she was a demon. An evil thing. What she did was horrific.

3. When Spike (with soul) did his killing in season seven, he was under someone else's (another evil thing) control.

4. When Willow did her vengeance kill, she was NOT an evil thing. She had a soul. However, need I remind you that Buffy WAS prepared to kill Willow, or at least attempt it, when she was bad. Xander got to her first. He saved her from that, as we all remember.

Whether or not you agree with Buffy's assertion to kill Anya in 'Selfless', that doesn't matter. It was the right thing to do for Buffy. Please refer back to point number one. It was Buffy's job. It's a crappy job, yes. But she wasn't being a 'bad friend'. She was being a 'good slayer'.

And now I'm done. All in all, though, great episode. :)

[GATEGOD]

But if she was a better friend, she would have been able to help Anya without having to be a 'good slayer'. And thus not nearly killing her. While Anya was willing to take it back and sacrifice herself Buffy didn't know this because she didn't take the time to find out. You're right she was doing her job, and doing it well. I still think though with all she's been through she wouldn't kill her friend without trying to stop Anya first. Like how she tried to help Willow before she went all killer girl.