Jesse

[wiccianslayer]

Did anyone else get really annoyed when it turned out jesse had been turned?

[white avenger]

Actually, I was sort of expecting SOMEBODY to get turned, but I was kinda hoping it would be the loser in the velvet sport coat. I mean, what kind of name for a character in an action/fantasy series is "Angel," anyhow. Just goes to show what I know...

[palabravampiress]

No, but in hindsight, Jesse's turning really bothered me. Buffy said something like, "It's not Jesse." Well, I'm not so sure. Hanging out in the Buffyverse with the fanged four and with Harmony has led me to wonder if vamps can't be rehabilitated to some extent. Angel's soul, Spike's chip, Darla's pregnancy, and Harmony's job all served to temper their appetites. To a greater or lesser extent according to each vamp's particular nature and circumstance, they were each able to learn to live on pig's blood and to function in the human world. I think vamp = evil is jumping the gun a little bit. I get that they pose a threat and that Buffy's got a sacred mission and all of that. I'm just saying that when it happens to a friend or loved one, I think they might be able to magic out a compromise that doesn't involve dusting. Of course, to be fair, in each instance (with the exception of Harmony), Buffy and co. thought that what was done to the vamps to temper their appetites was wrong.

I don't know. I just think there's a little more gray area than the gang wants to think about. A vamp is a hybrid. So he's part demon, but he's also part Jesse. Jesse's still in there, he's just lost his moral compass so to speak.

[Keanoite]

No, but in hindsight, Jesse's turning really bothered me. Buffy said something like, "It's not Jesse." Well, I'm not so sure. Hanging out in the Buffyverse with the fanged four and with Harmony has led me to wonder if vamps can't be rehabilitated to some extent. Angel's soul, Spike's chip, Darla's pregnancy, and Harmony's job all served to temper their appetites. To a greater or lesser extent according to each vamp's particular nature and circumstance, they were each able to learn to live on pig's blood and to function in the human world. I think vamp = evil is jumping the gun a little bit. I get that they pose a threat and that Buffy's got a sacred mission and all of that. I'm just saying that when it happens to a friend or loved one, I think they might be able to magic out a compromise that doesn't involve dusting. Of course, to be fair, in each instance (with the exception of Harmony), Buffy and co. thought that what was done to the vamps to temper their appetites was wrong.

I don't know. I just think there's a little more gray area than the gang wants to think about. A vamp is a hybrid. So he's part demon, but he's also part Jesse. Jesse's still in there, he's just lost his moral compass so to speak.

I agree about what you said about vampires not always being lost causes but when Jesse was turned Buffy and the gang knew nothing of souls or chips or anything like that. It was still very balck and white for them when it came to vamps, untill about 5 episodes later anyway!!

[Joyce Summers]

Yeah, I do agree it is an entirely gray area where vampires are concerned. But I think it makes it easier for the scoobies to consider vampires (with obvious exceptions of ensouled vampires- or chipped ones as it were) in a black and white way because to think too much on the gray reality could drive them crazy- to consider it as 'i have to kill my friend'. It's a lot easier for them emotionally to see it is 'not your friend. you're looking at the thing that killed him'. We all tell ourselves little lies to keep ourselves sane after all...

[Keanoite]

But then we have the moral dilemma. The Scoobies know that vamps can be 'rehabilitated' for lack of a better word, is it right that they don't give each vampire a fighting chance? If they did try to save em all as it were, would it turn into some kinda farce like the Iniative? If they did decide to do it, how? Its hardly right to return every vamp it's soul, essentially ripping that soul out of Paradise like Buffy and I love Angel and all but does the world need a race of Brooders?

Oh I have too many questions!!

[Joyce Summers]

Hmm...I think there in lies the need for the simple black and white world. I think, potentially, the scoobies could view rehabilitating all vampires as in essence playing god. All vampires that turned good, had it happen to them through a twist of fate; as though it were meant to be. Maybe the scoobies feel they should leave that all to the PTB and carrying on dusting until told to stop. I mean potential for good or not they (vampires, I mean, not the scoobies) are killing humans and the slayerettes have to fight the good fight, but you have to wonder if a loved one was turned (Giles, Xander, Joyce, Willow...any of them really) would they do what Giles ordered Jesse to do in The Harvest. That there was no going back; he had to kill the demon. Or would they ensoul that person/vampire? Perhaps add Mohra blood and baddabingbaddaboom- humanness?
And didn't Giles say in the episode 'Angel' 'its a demon at the core. there is no half way'. That was when he was Watcher Man so maybe the whole 'vampires are bad. go deadness for the vampires' is in fact a council party line that Giles was fed? I mean, he never really gets rid of that training (brainwashing, you name it) because in season 7 he still believes Spike to be dangerous despite having a soul

[Keanoite]

I think he believed Spike to be dangerous ,well because he was. At the time the The First was controlling him and he was killing, you can't really blame him for being apprehensive after Spike realised what the trigger was, it was still very uncertain whether Spike would continue to be a threat. I dunno maybe it's just Giles himself, becuase Wesley didn't hold that opinion of Angel for long, but then again Angel didn't snap the love of Wesley's life neck. I think that everything about the Scoobies world is very grey but in order to make it work they have to keep it simple. Fire Bad,Tree Pretty.

[Blondie Bear]

I think everyone has some great ideas and insights about this. Once more I come back to the writers. In order to set up the grey area, we first had to know where the black and white was. If we hadn't been told over and over that vampires (and other bad things) are evil, bad, nasty, pointy, bitey ones, I don't think the times that Buffy and other characters delve into the grey area with Angel, Ampata, Spike, Oz, etc. would have had as much impact. We would have been all, so what? But since we've been told that these supernatural things are naturally bad and evil, it gave another level of depth to the relationships and choices.

[palabravampiress]

I agree that the scoobies kind of have to simplify everything in order to do their jobs. I even agree that they had no idea about the possibility of vampires not killing humans and subsisting on animal blood when Jesse was turned. Only Giles would have had any experience with magic at that point, and like someone else said, his watcher training (and his background in evil magic) certainly never presented magic as an option for rehabilitating vamps. You're right about the Initiative, too. I mean, at some point, taking creatures off the street and trying to alter their nature does become ethically questionable. But none of that means that we, the audience, can't see the gray area there and wonder. The tragedy of Jesse's death seems to be that it happened so early. Had he been a major character for much longer, the gang probably could have done something to at least try to save him.

I read a fan fiction once that sort of dealt with this issue. Not with Jesse, though. In the fan fiction, Buffy had kids. Drusilla turned up as, like, the scariest villain imaginable and seduced and turned the grown son. As the folks with the most experience in such matters, Angel and Spike tried to rehabilitate the son, but, tragically, he was a lost cause. In the story, the son was still himself, but he was sort of like you might expect a mental patient to be (depending on the condition). Without a soul, every minor childhood issue sort of sprang loose from its confines and mushroomed into a giant issue. Questions about why his mother remained young and beautiful and sexually attractive (in this story, she did come back "wrong" -- as in, immortal) bloomed into sexual desire, which completely freaked him out as well as Buffy. He also became paranoid, convinced that everyone was out to get him. He knew right from wrong on an intellectual level - because he remembered it - but he couldn't reconcile that with his ravenous appetite for human blood. Trying to live as he had before drove him more and more insane. He was twitchy and on edge all the time, especially on routine errands like a trip to the mall. Eventually, Drusilla came to collect her new boy, and the two of them went on a killing spree. I don't remember how it ended, but I'm pretty sure that Buffy had to kill her own son and Spike had to kill Dru (Angel, meanwhile was romancing Buffy's other kid, a girl, which was another level of creepy).

It was a disturbing story, but it was an interesting take on the idea of rehabilitating vampires. The story seemed to suggest that you can't make a vampire change, especially not right away. It seemed to say that time and magic and fate are all required and, also, that being a vamp is no picnic for the person still trapped inside and dealing with all of these foreign and evil urges.

If I could remember the name of the story, I'd post a link, but it's been a long time since I read it. Sorry about that.

[TabulaRasa]

I was just annoyed with Jesse period. I never liked the guy.

[tommy]

So, when turned into a vampire, the person is supposed to be dead and you have a demon with that person's memories. Angel has switched back and forth between soul and no soul, and you can see that Angel and the demon Angelus are disgusted by the things the other one has done, because they have a shared memory but different personalities. They made it more complicated in Angel Season 4 by saying only Angelus remembers important information about The Beast. Maybe there was magic involved there, I forget.

Harmony as a vampire was a killer, but she was able to control herself with the threat that she herself would be killed if she bit a human. Take that away and she would probably kill again. Buffy believed that Spike's chip was just holding him back but he was still evil. I guess love also had the same effect on him; if he had never met Buffy he would still be a terrible killer - his love for Buffy was stronger than his demon desires to the extent that the demon would procure a soul, essentially destroying itself, to prove its love.

[benboy606]

Was I annoyed? No. Did I expect it? Yes.

No Jess, specifically, but someone was gonna get killed. And, imo, Jesse was the most distant of the group. I thought either Cordy or Jesse was gonna bite the dust (pun intended).

[Buffy obsessed fan]

I didn't think it really mattered, because it was better with a core four than a core five, Jesse just didn't fit in, really. The main way I knew it would probably be him who got turned was, he seemed stupid and wasn't in the opening credits :p

[Keanoite]

I didn't think it really mattered, because it was better with a core four than a core five, Jesse just didn't fit in, really. The main way I knew it would probably be him who got turned was, he seemed stupid and wasn't in the opening credits :p

Either was Angel and he didn't seem anymore stupid than Xander. For the scenes that he was in with Buffy, Willow and Xander he acted very chummy with the gang.

[TabulaRasa]

Ya but it still wasn't the same. Something about Jesse...I don't think there are many people who missed him.

[Miss Sunnydale]

I was kind of relieved when Jesse was turned.
It was, like, phew, I don't need to deal with him anymore.
He was kind of annoying.

Still, I did feel for Xander.
But, I knew he couldn't be part of the Scoobies. He just .. wasn't a good enough character.

[sosa lola]

Maybe poor Jesse needed more time to make us like him :lol:

I felt bad for Xander, too. Giles' "The person you're looking at is not your friend. It's the thing that killed him." surely explains Xander's angry feelings about vampires.

[palabravampiress]

Maybe poor Jesse needed more time to make us like him :lol:

I felt bad for Xander, too. Giles' "The person you're looking at is not your friend. It's the thing that killed him." surely explains Xander's angry feelings about vampires.

Yes, it does. But the sad part is that, after years of meeting vamps, we know it's not 100% true. Jesse was in there somewhere. That's why he danced with Cordy. That's why he wanted to keep Cordy for himself. Vampire William still loved his mum. Vampire Dru was still crazy. Vampire Liam still hated his dad. And maybe that's why Xander can't accept Spike and Angel as souled or chipped or whatever they are at any given time. Maybe if he accepts that vampires are more than just demons wearing friends' corpses for clothes, then he'll have to accept that he killed one of his best friends.

[Keanoite]

Yes, it does. But the sad part is that, after years of meeting vamps, we know it's not 100% true. Jesse was in there somewhere. That's why he danced with Cordy. That's why he wanted to keep Cordy for himself. Vampire William still loved his mum. Vampire Dru was still crazy. Vampire Liam still hated his dad. And maybe that's why Xander can't accept Spike and Angel as souled or chipped or whatever they are at any given time. Maybe if he accepts that vampires are more than just demons wearing friends' corpses for clothes, then he'll have to accept that he killed one of his best friends.

Good point, Xander knows Demon doesn't necessarily= evil, his relationship with Anya proved that. He's seen vampires redeem themsleves, so repression seems the best plan of action, he doesn't have to deal that way.

[Jules]

On the commentary Joss said he was going to have Jesse in the credits just to shake things up in the first episode and show that a possible main character had been killed.

And with regards to Jesse not being Jesse anymore, I agree with it. Jesse wasn't evil enough for a curse, the Initiative weren't about with a chip and (I think I'm stealing N4H's opinion here(if not apologies)) Harmony was depicted as the same in high school giving the view that high school popular cheerleaders are soulless creatures.

[ILLYRIAN]

I never knew any cheerleaders, but if they're soulless creatures I didn't miss much.

I was so emotionally disturbed at Jesse being bitten by a vampire, the blatant disgracefulness of it, he was so articulate with his wordcraft, especially when talking to Cordelia. Jesse was the short guy, right ?

[Randy Giles]

It bothers me that Jesse was killed off so soon, and that he never really felt like he was Xander's best friend. It felt like he was thrown in as an afterthought. Was he in the original pilot?

Personally, I think it would have been best had Jesse stuck around for five or six episodes before being turned and dying. He should have felt like part of the Scooby gang, we should have had the chance to care about his character. We know him so little that his turning and subsequent death does nothing for me.

[white avenger]

Either was Angel and he didn't seem anymore stupid than Xander. For the scenes that he was in with Buffy, Willow and Xander he acted very chummy with the gang.


(Actually, I've never underestimated Angel's stupidity) SOMEBODY in the core group just HAD to either die outright or get turned so that Buffy could stake them. Of the group, Jesse just drew the short straw.

[sosa lola]

Personally, I think it would have been best had Jesse stuck around for five or six episodes before being turned and dying. He should have felt like part of the Scooby gang, we should have had the chance to care about his character. We know him so little that his turning and subsequent death does nothing for me.

That would've had a much more emotional impact on his death from the viewers and Xander together.

I think Xander showed a good amount of grief for Jesse's death. It's in character for him not to cry, he reacts to pain by lashing out, angry kicking, or cracking a joke. That's how Xander mourns.

[Fake Shemp]

i think somebody should have mentioned him sometime afterwards tho

[sosa lola]

I remember Jesse was supposed to appeare to Xander in Conversation with Dead People. But they couldn't get the actor.

[Randy Giles]

That would have been random, especially seeing as how they never mentioned him again.

[VisionGuy]

That would have been random, especially seeing as how they never mentioned him again.

I found it strange that Jesse wasn't mentioned ever again. Especially since he was a big part of Willow and Xander's life. It would have been cool if they kept him for a few episodes. Maybe killed him off in Prophecy Girl when the vampires were attacking the school.

[Fake Shemp]

really? in conversations with dead people... i never heard that before....

i just thought they didnt put xander in cause he didnt have anyone deceased to talk to like the others did.... well thats what the commentary said *shrugs*

[Jules]

It was strange that Xander and Willow didn't seem to show any emotion for Jesse after he died. I suppose it was the only way for the show to go. Introducing new characters while trying to get them to grieve for a best friend, I don't think, would have worked as well.

[eunsoma]

I think it was amazing how Xander, Willow and Jesse were bestfriends pre - Buffy, yet he dies and they're like "Damn", and Xander kicks something... then it's like all over lol

[Joyce Summers]

I think it was too early in the season, it being the first episode and all, for them to do a proper mourning process. We didn't know Jesse so we weren't too bothered about the loss- they basically used the character to show us 'Hey, in this show people will die'.
We were allowed to see that Willow and Xander were broken by the loss, but there were bigger things going on; like stopping other people turning out like Jesse. Hence the minimum mourning time

[sosa lola]

I think it was amazing how Xander, Willow and Jesse were bestfriends pre - Buffy, yet he dies and they're like "Damn", and Xander kicks something... then it's like all over lol

Don't forget Xander's line right after he kicked that box, "I don't like vampires." Think Xander overdid mourning Jesse throughout the show. :)

[Yam Sham]

It annoyed me how Xander and Willow didn't seem all that distraught, when it seemed like Jesse was their friend since they were little kids. For one, they'd never seen a vampire before, and then they lost their best friend? Wouldn't you expect them to be at least a little bit depressed? Nobody seemed to recognize that a guy who was only 15 or 16 years old had just been killed!

[littlewilly]

they probably did mourn him but Joss just decided not to actually show us, or maybe they just reacted differently because they had just found out about vampires.

[fly on the wall]

I think it was too early in the season, it being the first episode and all, for them to do a proper mourning process. We didn't know Jesse so we weren't too bothered about the loss- they basically used the character to show us 'Hey, in this show people will die'.
We were allowed to see that Willow and Xander were broken by the loss, but there were bigger things going on; like stopping other people turning out like Jesse. Hence the minimum mourning time

I agree with this. :)

[fly on the wall]

Oh, I just want to add that although I don't think it's too weird that Willow and Xander didn't mourn for Jesse (too early in the series for the viewers to really feel bad about a character we don't even know), I DO think it's weird that they never mention Jesse again. (I'm almost positive they don't, but I could be wrong.) If you didn't see those two episodes, you wouldn't even know Jesse had existed.

[Relic]

My feelings on Jesse demise were sadly not much of a big whoop. I would have likely missed him more if I knew him better.

For me, it wasn't so much of a cast killing, no one is safe sort of thing; Jesse was just bait that was a friend of Xanders, and a way to further flesh out Xanders character.

Most interesting to me was how Xander dealt with it all. That negativity and anger toward vampires was a trait that stuck with him long after the accidental staking. (I do sort of wish the writers would have worked alittle bit more of that angle in, but the shows called Buffy, not Dead Jesse ;) )

One other thing I wish was explored more was how Buffy felt over Jesse being lost. Granted, she can't stop all deaths, but this one happened in part, due to her overconfidence with Luke and Darla and the feeling the I have that she was unprepaired for the hellmouth. (can't blame her, season one and all.) Unlike the pokemon, she could not catch them all in the graveyard. I would think that would weigh heavely on her. maybe it did and she, as a slayer, has a different way of grieving.

You know, untill I got involved in this discussion I did not realize that the scoobies never mention Jesse again. I guess thats kind of weird, but he does represent a loss and thats something difficult to talk about. There is an old wartime saying about never mentioning the dead in a fox hole; perhaps thats what Buffy and co. are doing. They are constantly putting their lives on the line and sometimes losing. Maybe Jesse is a writers oversight or maybe he's too hard to talk about. I dunno.

A very interesting side thread has started in this thread about vampire rehab. There has been some very interesting ideas thrown around. I'll add my two cents.

I remember Whistler telling Angel not all demons are bad. I wonder how this might play into a Buffy styled vampire? Vampires are born out of a predatory act and have to assume the role of predator to survive, but I wonder if all are inheirantly evil?

Angelus was certainly nasty, but I remember what the Judge mentioned to Spike and Dru in season two "You two reek of humanity" or something to that effect. Then there is the poor vampire with the glasses that loves knowledge, remeber what the judge does to him?

Latter on in that episode or close there to, Angelus shows up at vamp camp and Spike sicks the giant smurf on what he believes is Angel, the results get "There is no humanity left in this one, he can not be burned."

This leads me to believe that the demon side of the vampires themselves are not just straight lace bad guys, but very from individual to individual. (most probably bad.)

If Spikes bad side was to posses someone of higher self esteem and stronger character, perhaps he would not have become such a big Big Bad. It seemed to me like the vampire in him took alook around and said, 'Your a wuss'. and from that moment on it was full throttle over the top naughty in an attempt to wash away the weakness.

But the vampire side does posses the humans memories and i think over time that kind of acts as a subconcious to influence behavior....well at least untill it is totally forgotten, or in Angelus case, despised.

Long story short, I don't think it necessarily has to be a good person working away within a bad vampire, or at the very least having their memories/tendancies/traits surface. Just maybe...rehab might not be needed in all cases.

And just another side thought....I don't think a chip would have worked on Angelus.

[fly on the wall]

^ Well, it's interesting that vampires are "evil", yet they can love. That's what the Judge sensed in Spike and Drusilla ("You two reek of humanity; you share affection and jealousy"), and as you said, the Judge actually burned a vampire which proves that vampire had at least a little humanity in him. Buffy doesn't believe anything can love without a soul (at least, in the beginning she does), but I think we all agree that Spike and Drusilla loved each other, and Spike loved Buffy. Can truly "evil" things love, care, adore and protect?

Then there's that argument Buffy and Riley have, where Buffy herself says there are different kinds of demons and some aren't evil. Look at Anya, for example. She becomes a vengeance demon again but takes back the killing of the frat boys. She was a 'demon', she was an 'evil thing', she shouldn't have cared...right?

Anya, Spike, the Whistler...all demons, but clearly not 100% evil. Then you get scum like Parker and Warren etc, you get rogue Slayers like Faith, Xander leaves Anya at the altar and Willow kills people...clearly having a soul isn't as cracked up as it's meant to be. ;) I do think demons are multifaced and layered, moreso than the human cast in Buffy realizes at times.

[Relic]

Even if they are made of hate....I dont get papa smurf, Judge's 'verdict'....hate and love both reek of humanity. Pehaps machines are the true evil! Yet Angelus gets a pass when he admittedly still loved Buffy and understands passion to frightening extent? (The passion episode on season two rocked)

If that is the litmus test to be a truelly removed from humanity, than Adam was a bigger beast than Angelus could ever hope to be.... and in the end to me that makes sense. I think Angelus was a stark raving looney from his inprisonment in Angel. (But I still dont get why he could not be fried by the Judge...)

In short I think the judge was full of 'it'. that is why Buffy smoked him with the launcher. He was a child monster wearing parent clothes. Thats made me question if i can base any reasoning off his examples because he is so out of the loop so to speak.

If humans can be evil, how can evil exist without including of humanity?

Its been fun talking about this...