Empty Places

[GATEGOD]

First off!! what a great episode!!

Starting with Clem and Buffy was perfect. Clem kept taking back what he says makes the scene even more hilarious!!
Faith stealing Andrews hot pocket was great too. Andrew starts ranting about how it had his name on it and Faith walks in eating it!!
One of my favorite scenes in this episode though had to be the Spike/Andrew scene on his motorcycle.
When Andrew starts talking about going to get food, first you think Spike is going to toss him off the bike....
But instead he starts talking about it too!! haha then of course "Tell anyone we had this conversation and I'll bite you" :lmao:

One scene that topped that one though had to be the Xander/Willow scene in the hospital when they start making jokes.
XANDER: Well, to go with the eye patch, to really complete the look. I think I still have that costume from Halloween.

WILLOW: Yeah, and don't underestimate the impact of a peg leg. Maybe the hospital can hook you up with a nice one. Maybe they have a 2-body-parts for the price of one kind of deal.

XANDER: Oh, you know what the best part is? No one will ever make me watch jaws 3-D again.

WILLOW: Yeah, and, (tries to smile) you'll never have to... (tries not to cry)

XANDER: (pained) Oh, Willow... please don't.

:cry: :cry: That was a very very very sad scene, almost made me cry :cry:

Then everyone turning on Buffy.... I mean wtf! Not even one of her friends stands up for her... One episode ago Xander's on the Buffy float
And now after what happens he turns on her too, everyone sucks, I mean sure she might be wrong sometimes, so you turn on her...
Of course Dawn will turn on her because Dawn needs attention and never gets any, Willow....wtf
Anya duh... she hates Buffy almost lol, Robin would turn because Buffy cares for Spike, Faith didn't turn as much as the others
Then Giles, the one who she keeps telling she doesn't need...biased much, and these stupid girls who know nothing ...
Arg!! Buffy should just let them all die if they feel so strongly about her not being fit to lead them! :cheering: :rant over:

Edit:

One small thing i do like the very next episode spike comes back and stands up for her!! Very touching episode. This small little bit in particular:

SPIKE: You listen to me. I?ve been alive a bit longer than you and dead a lot longer than that. I?ve seen things you couldn?t imagine and done things I?d prefer you didn?t. I don?t exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood which doesn?t exactly rush in the direction of my brain so I make a lot of mistakes. A lot of wrong bloody calls. A hundred plus years and there?s only one thing I?ve ever been sure of. You. Hey, look at me. I?m not asking you for anything. When I say I love you, it?s not because I want you, or because I can?t have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I?ve seen your kindness and your strength. I?ve seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You are a hell of a woman. You?re the one, Buffy.

That was very sad, and very happy and very eye watery and very AMAZING! Atleast someone stands by her.

[sosa lola]

I guess I'm one of the few who felt bad for the Scoobies and could see their side, instead of just seeing Buffy's. :) I firmly believe that Buffy came back stronger than ever after Empty Places and was a muich better and more respected leader.

[Wanabee-slayer]

I could see the scoobies side to the argument and even if they didn't think it was a good idea I think they could have compromised!!! I mean she has been saving their lives for the last 7 years and they kick her out? They were an ungrateful binch of *coughs*, I've ever seen. I mean really!!!!! She did everything for them!! They were her friends and family and the whole point of that is you stick by each other no matter what else happens.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Wood, Anya, The Potentials - I can totally understand there POV. Heck, i'd even be on their side.

Willow and Giles - I cannot for the life of me understand them. Buffy is the one person that they SHOULD trust implicitly and definitely not turn against in a public forum.

They should have taken her aside and not done what they did.

Xander, well even though he'd had his eye smushed and I can forgive the fear, still should have took her aside. After all these have been through and what she's sacrificed for them, they owed her that.

Faith, she did nothing wrong except be there.

Dawn, I think her intentions were honourable. She did ask Buffy to leave BUT that was because Buffy had put herself into a corner(thanks to her BEST friends) and Dawn gave her the way out.

Its not a matter of Buffy coming back stronger, none of the guys did it for Buffy's benefit, they did it for themselves, the fraidy cats.

[sosa lola]

They didn't kick her out because of nothing. They were arguing about her plan, which they all decided that it wasn't a good one. Only Buffy thought it was a good plan. Buffy had a theory and they all were willing to discuss it, but to go back to the same place where they had badly lost? To do that same reckless plan again? You can't expect them to be robots and just agree to that. Buffy wanted them to fall in line, which was impossible when the group wasn't convinced about the plan, here Buffy made a mistake. She should have been more open for suggestions and listened carefully to what her friends and group thought. She had the right idea, but I don’t think she had the right strategy.

When the group suggested that Faith should lead, Buffy was furious and reacted badly (which made me feel bad for her as it didn't make her look good) Buffy couldn't follow, and she clearly didn't want to follow Faith, so she said:

"I can't stay here and watch her lead you to a disaster."

To which Dawn replied, "Then you shouldn't."

I actually think Dawn's idea of Buffy leaving was wise, but she didn't do it right. She could have talked to Buffy privately about Buffy needing to rest and get her act together, instead of taking Buffy's comment to heart and asking her to leave.

Buffy came back after what had happened stronger than ever, she knew her mistakes, and was able to come back strong. Her behavior changed, from "Fall in line" to "What do you think of the plan?" to which the group started to admire her and respect her again.

I think S7 sucked because it had Buffy as a General and the others as Soldiers, the show wasn't about that. It had always been about group work and listening to each other's suggestions.

I don't think Buffy would have become that way if it wasn't for Giles who pushed her to be like that. Buffy was trying hard but with every day passing, General Buffy was losing the love and trust others had for her, even Spike was quite pissed at her in Get It Done. Then her badly phrased comment to piss Giles more about her trusting no one than Spike, made Xander, Willow and Dawn deeply hurt and unable to support her again during that argument. After everything they had done for her, after trying so hard to follow her lead in S7, they discover that she didn't trust them, why should they trust her then? (Of course, I don't think that two wrongs make a right, I'm just trying to see where the characters came from.)

Everybody there made mistakes, even Buffy, no one was perfect. Both parties were wrong and right.

Sadly we didn't get to see a scene where Buffy and the Scoobies discussed what had happened. The writers really screwed up in S7, which is why it's my least favorite season.

[Edmund Blackadder]

They didn't kick her out because of nothing. They were arguing about her plan, which they all decided that it wasn't a good one. Only Buffy thought it was a good plan. Buffy had a theory and they all were willing to discuss it, but to go back to the same place where they had badly lost? To do that same reckless plan again? You can't expect them to be robots and just agree to that. Buffy wanted them to fall in line, which was impossible when the group wasn't convinced about the plan, here Buffy made a mistake. She should have been more open for suggestions and listened carefully to what her friends and group thought. She had the right idea, but I don’t think she had the right strategy

This is the problem isn't it.
They spend the year telling Buffy that she is the LEADER the GENERAL and when she starts finally acting like one, making the decisions they turn on her.
Problem is, the underlying reason for their mutinous ways isn't the problem with the plan.

Willow is afraid she'll have to use magic.
Xander is afraid that he will die because he has no powers.
Giles is smarting because Buffy told him she doesn't need him anymore to 'train' her.

They used this moment to protect themselves or get a little bit of revenge.

Buffy had made plans in the past that were just as reckless, but it was this that made her different to other Slayers, it was this that Giles had nurtured in the passed.

What the potentials wanted was a plan thta would have everyone going in and fighting and winning without loss of life - that wouldn't happen and Giles and co knew that. The plan was sound, it was the people that were the issue.



When the group suggested that Faith should lead, Buffy was furious and reacted badly (which made me feel bad for her as it didn't make her look good) Buffy couldn't follow, and she clearly didn't want to follow Faith, so she said:

"I can't stay here and watch her lead you to a disaster."

To which Dawn replied, "Then you shouldn't."

I actually think Dawn's idea of Buffy leaving was wise, but she didn't do it right. She could have talked to Buffy privately about Buffy needing to rest and get her act together, instead of taking Buffy's comment to heart and asking her to leave.

Which is why I defended them.
I am 100% behind Dawn in this situation(and Faith) because she kept her mouth shut in the disagreement until she saw a way of getting Buffy out of it. She is also the first one to defend Buffy after Buffy has gone.

Interestingly, Faith instantly realises that Buffy HAD to make the decisions.

Buffy came back after what had happened stronger than ever, she knew her mistakes, and was able to come back strong. Her behavior changed, from "Fall in line" to "What do you think of the plan?" to which the group started to admire her and respect her again.

I think S7 sucked because it had Buffy as a General and the others as Soldiers, the show wasn't about that. It had always been about group work and listening to each other's suggestions.

NONE of them knew that Buffy would come back stronger, as far as they were concerned she'd gone for the rest of the fight.
They were the ones telling Buffy to be the one to tell people to 'Fall in line' not the other way around.
Then when Buffy comes back, she has the Scythe, Faith suffered a huge defeat and they felt guilt.

Buffy's biggest mistake was listening to the people she trusted and then allowing them to betray her.

[sosa lola]

So you think they wanted to hurt Buffy? I only saw resentment in Giles' tone (as well as Buffy's, she wasn't an angel in the argument) the others were being gentle, even Xander stated that he was trying to see Buffy's point, but then he lost his left eye doing that exact same plan.

When reading the original scene we read so many times about Willow trying to tell Buffy that she needed to rest because her plan sounded rushed. Do you want Willow to follow Buffy like the lapdog she always was? I was actually proud of Willow in that scene, finally standing up to Buffy. Buffy's shocked look showed that she always considered Willow her safety net, even when she's being irrational.

I explained what I thought about the characters' actions in the other thread "Get Out", we can discuss this over there if you like :)

[Edmund Blackadder]

So you think they wanted to hurt Buffy? I only saw resentment in Giles' tone (as well as Buffy's, she wasn't an angel in the argument) the others were being gentle, even Xander stated that he was trying to see Buffy's point, but then he lost his left eye doing that exact same plan.

When reading the original scene we read so many times about Willow trying to tell Buffy that she needed to rest because her plan sounded rushed. Do you want Willow to follow Buffy like the lapdog she always was? I was actually proud of Willow in that scene, finally standing up to Buffy. Buffy's shocked look showed that she always considered Willow her safety net, even when she's being irrational.

I explained what I thought about the characters' actions in the other thread "Get Out", we can discuss this over there if you like :)

Xander and Willow wasn't about Buffy it was about their own fears.

Willow isn't standing up to Buffy for any other reason than fear - thats not something to be proud of.

Willow was a trusted ally. Buffy needed her and expected her to be honest BUT not in front of the 'army'.

Fact is, in a real war situation, if a Sgt talks like that to a general like that, they'd warrant being shot.
Any issue they had, they owed it to Buffy to take her aside and discuss their misgivings. Its nothing at all to do with the plan, it really isn't. This is all the internal issues they have and used Buffy's plan and weak status in the group.

[sosa lola]

Maybe Buffy needed to talk to the Scoobies first before expecting them to fall in line in front of the Slayer Jr.

I don't get it, so the Scoobies were supposed to handle the situation wisely and Buffy isn't expected to? She was also lashing out and accusing and ordering the group to fall in line. I tried that method in the classroom, my students rebelled against me. You can't expect a group of people who knew nothing about military to act like soliders, especially when Buffy herself was not acting like a good General. These were a group of people with fears and weaknesses, not a bunch of supermans.

I see where Buffy was coming from, I also see where the others were, and I don't consider their actions to be betrayals. I didn't like that Buffy had to leave the house like that, I thought it was extreme of Dawn to say such thing in front of everybody, but that doesn't mean that I expect everybody to follow Buffy's orders like mindless robots.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Maybe Buffy needed to talk to the Scoobies first before expecting them to fall in line in front of the Slayer Jr.

I don't get it, so the Scoobies were supposed to handle the situation wisely and Buffy isn't expected to? She was also lashing out and accusing and ordering the group to fall in line. I tried that method in the classroom, my students rebelled against me. You can't expect a group of people who knew nothing about military to act like soliders, especially when Buffy herself was not acting like a good General. These were a group of people with fears and weaknesses, not a bunch of supermans


For all intent and purpose the Scoobies had been Soldiers, they had been for 6 years. They knew how Buffy worked.
Also, they made quite a deal of Xander retaining his Military Memory through out the show, he should have been able to understand why what he was doing was wrong.

Buffy became defensive when she was being attacked. Can you blame her? She was being attacked by novices and loved ones, she had no one helping her, she went to the only place she was able to. It may have been wrong, but she felt she had to. Over the years she fought with certainty that she would die, she's fought with certainty that she'd lose forever the man she loved, she'd fought with a huge possibility that her sister would die and at the end moment decided to give her life for her sister, her friends and the world and she had even fought her best friend. She knew the prices she had to constantly pay yet she still fought on. This, however, this was the first time that her friends were against her and it hurt.

As for 'robots' well again, they shouldn't be BUT they should respect Buffy, her plans and ger motivation. They didn't do that.

[white avenger]

[QUOTE=sosa lola;462112]Maybe Buffy needed to talk to the Scoobies first before expecting them to fall in line in front of the Slayer Jr.

I tried that method in the classroom, my students rebelled against me. You can't expect a group of people who knew nothing about military to act like soliders, especially when Buffy herself was not acting like a good General. These were a group of people with fears and weaknesses, not a bunch of supermen.


No, they were a bunch of Potential SuperWOMEN. And maybe being the instructor in a martial arts class doesn't give me the same perspective as a teacher in a regular classroom, but in my class, I am the black belt, and I am the one in charge. If the ultimate argument is only, "Because I said so," then that is the end of the discussion. (Incidentally, my wife is a retired school teacher with a Master's degree in Special Ed, and she agrees with me)

[Keanoite]

[QUOTE=sosa lola;462112]Maybe Buffy needed to talk to the Scoobies first before expecting them to fall in line in front of the Slayer Jr.

I tried that method in the classroom, my students rebelled against me. You can't expect a group of people who knew nothing about military to act like soliders, especially when Buffy herself was not acting like a good General. These were a group of people with fears and weaknesses, not a bunch of supermen.


No, they were a bunch of Potential SuperWOMEN. And maybe being the instructor in a martial arts class doesn't give me the same perspective as a teacher in a regular classroom, but in my class, I am the black belt, and I am the one in charge. If the ultimate argument is only, "Because I said so," then that is the end of the discussion. (Incidentally, my wife is a retired school teacher with a Master's degree in Special Ed, and she agrees with me)


It's like a pack of wolves, there can only be one Alpha. That is Buffy. She is the law. End of story.

[sosa lola]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :) I don't think that Buffy is the law, and I don't believe that one voice will be leading others to victory. You guys believe in that, I don't. Nothing will change that, so I guess that's why we don't understand each other.

[GATEGOD]

When there is a coming War Buffy is the leader and the one voice, yes she hears everyone else, but in the end everything is up to her!

[Keanoite]

And it wasn't the plan they had the problem with it was Buffy! Faith basically carried out the plan Buffy proposed...they went after the weapon and got blown up for their efforts. The scoobies used Buffy's weakening standing with the potentials to tear her down. Mutiny.

[GATEGOD]

And it wasn't the plan they had the problem with it was Buffy! Faith basically carried out the plan Buffy proposed...they went after the weapon and got blown up for their efforts. The scoobies used Buffy's weakening standing with the potentials to tear her down. Mutiny.

Pure blooded mutiny!!!! :) Faith could have idk... not just stand there doing nothing as they elected her leader!!
But the fact that no one even believed in Buffy out of the 20-30 people there.... shows how much character they all have!! :: vampire

[Keanoite]

Pure blooded mutiny!!!! :) Faith could have idk... not just stand there doing nothing as they elected her leader!!
But the fact that no one even believed in Buffy out of the 20-30 people there.... shows how much character they all have!! :: vampire

I actually feel sorry for Faith, she didn't want any of what went down to happen, it was just thrust apon her.

I wonder though do the scoobies feel responsible for those deaths caused by the bomb? those girls wouldn't have died if they hadn't thrown Buffy out? of course that was never mentioned!. The bloody double standards strike again!!!

[Nabila]

I don't really like watching this episode. I haven't seen it for a long time. Wasn't Faith the first to oppose Buffy's plan. I remember thinking, when I first saw this, that Faith should have spoken to Buffy in private, slayer to slayer, about her misgivings. After all this is Slayer business. When Faith openly opposed Buffy's plan, everybody started to jump in. I can understand Faith though because she's also weary and just sort of blurted it out. That happens.

This episode didn't make much sense to me. From the start, the potentials were already rude to Buffy, and none of the Scoobies or Dawn reprimands them to have some respect. It's Buffy's house. She didn't invite them. As usual, they were shoved down her throat. These are such ill-mannered girls. Where on earth did they come from? If one or two of them were rude without manners, I can understand. But all of them?

It also doesn't make sense to me why any one of them would risk making a slayer angry especially the slayer who owns the house. Buffy should have kicked them all out instead. But of course she wouldn't. She is way above them. If she feels superior, that's because she is. Not in terms of her gift but as a person. She really just can't be petty.

And the Scoobies? I really can't accept what they have done here.

I can understand about Anya because she was just furious that Xander lost his eye fighting Buffy's war. Actually, it's everybody's war but the fact that Anya lashed out at Buffy, who gave her refuge as well, proves she just wants to blame Buffy.

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't get how people don't agree with what the gang did. Buffy was so outta line.

The potentials so had a right to stick up to her, they don't know her and she is demanding them to put their lives on the line, if I were in that position I would be right there with them, is there anyone here who could honestly say that if they were a 17 year old girl, having just come from a fight were you were probably injured, your friends died and you have no super power, that as soon as Buffy said ok we're going back in, you would be jumping at the opportunity?

Why the hell would you give complete control of your life over to someone else, without wanting a say. Don’t forget Buffy says it herself, They weren't recruited they were chosen. She was so clearly wrong, and she realised this, that’s why when we get to "Chosen" she gives them a choice to fight, I know we don't get to see them choose to, but she does say it so it's safe to say that since she's not barking orders at them, and actually working with them, they choose to fight.

The scoobies are different, you can have complete faith in someone, but go through a bad decision like the one Buffy made and suffer such a loss, the scoobies would have been mad to agree to this without thinking about it more!

[Keanoite]

Like I said before, this was a military situation, it was their DUTY to fall in line. They didn't choose to be potentials, well Buffy didn't chose to be a slayer, it was thrust apon her and she just had to deal. The same as every slayer before and a couple after her, this was an apocolypse, it was war, as callous as it sounds people get hurt. I'm not saying it's fair but in Buffy's own words 'it's the job we have to do'. Like you said Buffy asked them to decide when she told them her plan, she gave them a chioce that she didn't get. Not only did she have to be strong, she had to be the strongest...at 15!! By agreeing to go with Giles they were agreeing to everything that comes with being 'chosen'.

[Black Eye Guy]

Like I said before, this was a military situation, it was their DUTY to fall in line. They didn't choose to be potentials, well Buffy didn't chose to be a slayer, it was thrust apon her and she just had to deal.
Buffy had super powers, shes bound to have a little more confidence.

Like you said Buffy asked them to decide when she told them her plan, she gave them a chioce that she didn't get.
But she gave a choice in Chosen not in Empty places.

By agreeing to go with Giles they were agreeing to everything that comes with being 'chosen'.
No they were agreeing to be protected, the girls wern't expecting to have to fight, this comes across pretty clear. It's only once they get there that the gang decides they can use them.

I mean even the scoobies were given a choice in season 1, Buffy didn't want them to be helping cuz they could get hurt, but they choose to fight. But with the potentials they were being demanded to.

[Keanoite]

Yeah because they were potentials!!! Kennedy had been trained for years, like Kendra! It was their job to fight just like Buffy

[Black Eye Guy]

Yes and it was wrong if it wasn't wrong Buffy wouldn't have given them a choice as the end. She realised she was wrong, everyone else should too.

[GATEGOD]

Still, all Buffy was trying to die was to stop the first, there by protecting them. If they really wanted to be protected they couldn't sit and wait to die.
They had to go on the offense and if Buffy never did go back in without the girls, then alot more of them would have died in the end without the sycthe.
They were scared, who wouldn't be. But Giles brought them to Buffy for a reason, they should have trusted her even after making one bad call.

[sosa lola]

They needed a good plan. Buffy's plan was the same suicidal plan she had in Dirty Girls. They didn't like that plan. That's all it was. Then they started fighting a useless fight that all of them contributed in and not just the Scoobies. Buffy also lost her temper and made the situation worse. I understand everybody, even Buffy. But I don't see any betrayal. As the writers say, they were have a debate, everyone wanted to give an opinion, Buffy only wanted to her voice to be heard.

In the end, everybody learned from their mistakes, even Buffy.

[Keanoite]

If they didn't like the plan how come they all agreed to Faith essentially doing the same thing that Buffy proposed?

[Rowan Hawthorn]

They didn't.

1. Buffy's plan was to go back to the vineyard. That's not where the weapons stash was.
2. Kennedy was opposed to Faith's plan, too - she thought they should do some recon first and see if they could get some information before jumping into anything, but Faith didn't listen any more than Buffy did. Turns out Kennedy was right, because Faith's plan led them right into a trap.

That's why a military group may have one leader, but that leader gets advice from lots of people.

[Blondie Bear]

And anyway, I think it was partly because Buffy didn't say it. Besides, if they don't follow Faith what are they going to do? Kick her out and start going through leaders until they find one who's popular? I think they SHOULD have elected Cho-An.

[sosa lola]

They didn't.

1. Buffy's plan was to go back to the vineyard. That's not where the weapons stash was.
2. Kennedy was opposed to Faith's plan, too - she thought they should do some recon first and see if they could get some information before jumping into anything, but Faith didn't listen any more than Buffy did. Turns out Kennedy was right, because Faith's plan led them right into a trap.

That's why a military group may have one leader, but that leader gets advice from lots of people.

I never thought about this. They should have made Kennedy the leader, seriously, she spoke more sense than any of them.

I really like Kennedy when she's not being Willow's girlfriend, I thought she was the best out of all these Slayer Jr. She spoke her mind and was not afraid of anyone. Reminds me of high school Cordelia, who kicked mature Cordelia's ass in the interesting department.

[Cordelia Chase*]

OKAY!!!! LOL

I understand what everyone was saying and where they were coming from in this episode. BUT!............

Her friends had no right to go against her. I would atleast think they would have her backs. The potentials just hated Buffy because she was strict and basically right about everything. They voted FAith because she was just there, another Slayer who just happens to be lose so they thought that FAith would just go easy on them, considering her past.

Xander and Willow had no right!!
1. if not for Buffy both of them would of died in the First two episodes of season one!!!
2. She sacrificed herself for them countless time((Including Giles, Dawn, Anya))

Now the Dawn thing.........you may think its honourable but not I.
I was upset to see her own sister say i think you should leave.
1. Its Buffy house
2. Dawn wouldnt bealive if she wasnt made from Buffy

And Robin...he just sucks!!! lol......He just hated Spike........

But I was happy to know that my girl Faith didnt oppose Buffy.

The whole scene was okay but everyone went about it the wrong way. I dont think all the argueing was needed. And infact Buffy was right. They were hiding something and she went and got it!! And then saved the girls!!!


******ugh!!!!!!!!! I would of let them die for kicking me out!!!!! LOL.....j/p******

[Blondie Bear]

I think Robin backed Faith because she was another Slayer and hadn't chosen Spike over him. Notice how he so IMMEDIATELY gravitated toward her as soon as he realized who she was? He wanted a Slayer in charge, but when Faith came along, he saw her as an alternative Slayer to the one who (he felt) had betrayed him.

In short, he was being really immature.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Yea...I would agree!!

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I also have to really disagree that they "had no right" to question Buffy's actions. Last time they jumped into a fight without looking, at least two of them died in addition to the injured and the ones who'd already been killed. Buffy was correct in her assessment of where the important item(s) were, but even she really had nothing but intuition to go on, and she did a pretty poor job of explaining herself to a bunch of inexperienced fighters who had already taken losses without even making the other side flinch. Leader or not, if anybody expects me to put my ass on the line a second time in a situation like that, (s)he'd better have a better explanation than "because I say so." All of them, Buffy included, could have been more diplomatic about it, but tempers got the better of good sense all around. Robin Wood did a pretty good job of undermining Buffy, himself, and if there was anyone in the room who really was out of place and out of line, he was it.

[codyw1]

Y'know, I'm rewatching season 7 at the moment (and, in general, it's very good) and this ep was where I left off last night.

I was CHEERING when they smacked down Buffy.

Sorry, but she was COMPLETELY out of control by this point. She's very hard to like by this point. She's willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone for the "mission"... except, of course, Spike, who she defends even when it's utterly irrational and detrimental to the group. (Giles' actions in LMPTM are pretty justified IMHO. Spike has been brainwashed to attack them whenever the First chooses to give the signal, won't continue with the attempt to deprogram him, and Buffy is happily content to let him keep wandering around with everyone, with no plan in mind for what to do). Then her great plan (which everyone objects to THE FIRST TIME, but she overrules them, and they trust her enough to go along with it despite their misgivings)... and gets several girls butchered and Xander with his eye ripped. Then she expects them to do it AGAIN, based on nothing but a hunch and with no actual plan to deal with the guy who did all the damage and took HER out with one punch!

I'd be telling her where to stick it, as well!

Watching it in a marathon, as well, has made it much clearer how far Buffy is losing it, and made it much less of a surprise and more inevitable that the gang ultimately do what they do.

I'm afraid I'm with the Scoobies on this, 100%.

[GATEGOD]

See I watched it all at once to and I hated everyone for turning on her! Those bastards :p but that's my opinion. I think she was just trying to control things, which is what she should have done, as the leader! They should have followed her to hell and back, dieing if need be, or they could leave. The whole point of them being there was for Buffy to protect them, and if she thought that going there was the best course of action then they should have followed her, no matter what happened, no matter who died, no matter anything! Even Xander and Willow turned :s so not cool. Giles wasn't really a shocker they seemed to be hating on each other all season. But her closest friends.. infront of everyone, not cool at all and way to disrespectful! I'm glad Buffy left! Would have been better if she never came back and watched them all die :p okay maybe not, but they were out of line! ^_^ Atleast I think they were

[codyw1]

I'm sorry, but that's crazy. "No matter who died or anything".

I don't think so. Buffy is not God. She has to be accountable for her actions, and her actions by this point have been a complete disaster yet she doesn't even seem to notice. I'd have told her to get bent as well! ;)

[GATEGOD]

But she was right, she thought she was right, and guess what.. if she never went back they wouldn't have got the scythe and would have lost the war and everyone would have died.

So yes, because Buffy was right, I think the others were foolish. I think Spike who came back and defender her said it perfectly.

"You know, I think I do. Rupert. You used to be the big man, didn't you? The teacher, all full of wisdom. Now she's surpassed you and you can't handle it. She has saved your lives again and again. She has died for you. And this is how you thank her?"

[codyw1]

She was utterly out of line expecting everyone to follow her with no plan except the same plan that had already gotten people killed, and not even thinking they had any right to question her. Sorry, but she's lost the plot entirely by this point!

[GATEGOD]

They can question her all they want they still have to follow her. They decided they would rather betray her, all of them. You know how crappy Buffy must have felt after that. All she was trying to do was save as many lives as possible, she truly thought it was the right course of action, it infact was. They failed her.

[codyw1]

Nonsense. She failed them. Nobody except a brainless automaton follows a leader who won't be questioned, won't accept advice and insists on following a reckless course of action that has ALREADY failed, with fatal consequences.

Buffy is the one at fault here.

[GATEGOD]

lol.

Making your closest friend feel like nothing, when all she was trying was to protect them from the coming darkness is failure! She was right, even if she didn't know it at the time. Going back and getting into the place was the right thing to do. So you are saying she failed them because she wanted to move through on a plan that ultimately happened anyway, was successful and got them their greatest weapon..?

[Blondie Bear]

Nobody except a brainless automaton follows a leader who won't be questioned, won't accept advice and insists on following a reckless course of action that has ALREADY failed, with fatal consequences.


Hm. Rather mirrors the current political situation in the U.S., don't it?

I think the major thing here is, is Buffy the boss, or isn't she? Are they at war or aren't they? In the U.S. military, soldiers are required to follow any lawful orders given to them by a superior officer, REGARDLESS of whether it will get them killed or how stupid it is. When the Potentials first showed up, they were all ready to fall in line, learn how to be Slayers, and be part of the Slayer army fighting the First. When they realize just how fatal fighting the forces of evil can be, they freak out and refuse to do it anymore. If soldiers--in ANY army--acted this way, the country they defend would be overrun and occupied within DAYS.

So, while I think Buffy might not have been thinking in terms of the group--because going back in to the vineyard is exactly what she would do while on her own--the Potentials had no right to question her authority and kick her out.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Once again I agree. BUffy was doing what she thought was right. Everyone saw her as the LEADER and wanted to know whats next. Buffy had a plan. They shot her down. SHe went alone and was right. They were hiding something.


ANd I noticed long ago, that the Slayer prophecy said something about the slayer always being alone. Thats true. Its always somewhere towards the end of a season when Buffy feels alone before the "Big Fight"

[Jaded Wolf]

People always demand a leader so then one steps up and starts leading. However, once that person starts to lead and implements policies and direction, the people turn because they didn't quite have the same vision. They really never wanted a leader but instead someone who would do what they wanted but be able to take the blame. It's sort of passive-aggressive technique that is used. That is what I think happened with Buffy. She didn't want to be the leader but everyone said she needed to be. So when Buffy takes the reins and wants her "soldiers" to enter a hard place, they get scared and turn on her.

[celestialarrow]

i watched empty places yesterday and i wanted to cry after seeing how the scooby gang turned on buffy i mean she made one mistake and every body started coming at her even willow, xander, and dawny i felt like if they felt that way considering the history they have with buffy they could have pulled her off to the side instead of bombarding her with the others the only thing that got me through was knowing spike had buffy's back no matter what and if he was there it would'nt went down like that.

[sosa lola]

I think they were mostly against her new plan, which was exactly like her old plan. If they were really pissed that she screwed up, they'd have kicked her out in Dirty Girls, won't they?

[SH3RRI3]

Yeah I know what you mean, nobody is perfect and they came down on her for one mistake. Granted the mistake wasn't a small one but it could have been a lot bigger in the sense that she would have just stayed there fighting but she knew that she had made a mistake and shouldn't have gone in blind. I just felt so sorry for her when everybody turned against her because you could then see that she really didn't have eanyone but spike and possibly andrew to some extent. All through the scene where they were arguing I just wish that Spike would walk through the door and make them all look like complete fools for not trusting her but sdly it never happened.

Although, the spike and andrew scene on the motorbike was cool "You tell anyone we had this conversation and i'l bite you." I just love that hehe

[celestialarrow]

you know what i hate to say it but after they turned on buffy if i was her i would have left sunnydale i mean for the first time in a long time buffy was free she didnt have the mantle of being the leader faith took over that burden. i would have left and went on a vacation or something i know it would hurt in the long run but me and spike would be sipping margaritas in hawaii.

[SpikedBuffy]

I've always hated this part of season seven. I can't stand it when they all tell her to leave her own house.

I remember that I did make the comment once that Buffy should've just let them all die and saved herself after the way they treated her, but now I don't think that way. I think it speaks volumes for Buffy's character that she came back and saved the day. She turned out to be a true hero, going up against Caleb to get the scythe with in the end was the thing that beat the First. She went and got the scythe because of the strength Spike gave her, and she didn't have to do that. She could've let the group get her down and she didn't.

[Lyle]

Well I just saw this episode for the first time a few nights ago, and I just had to give my opinion on the subject...

I can see where a few of the characters are coming from, but I think Buffy was completely in the right. Here's how I break it down by character:
Faith: Definitely the best of the bunch, Faith shouldn't have called Buffy out about the plan in front of the whole group, but she also tried to calm the situation down, so I can sympathize with her.
Xander: He should've stuck up for Buffy, but obviously he'd had a rough night. Losing an eye had to be a really jarring experience, and Giles trust comment probably misled Xander. I don't completely agree with what he did but I'm not all the way against him either.
Willow: She had a lot of influence in the group and I think she should've used that to help Buffy. Even if she didn't agree she still should've reinforced that Buffy was the leader, but she didn't do that.
Anya: Totally wrong, she was just trying to hurt Buffy...her thing about Buffy being lucky was stupid too. Buffy wasn't better because she was the Slayer, she was better because she always put saving the world first, even above her own life. She was a hero who had proven herself time after time, and that's what made her the leader.
Giles: Giles was awesome through most of the first 6 seasons, but this scene just ruined him for me. He knew Buffy was a hero, he'd even said so back in The Gift. He was just mad she didn't agree with all his decisions, so he undermined her in front of the group.
Dawn: I could see where shes been hurt by Buffy ignoring her, but still...this was her sister. The one who'd given her life to save her. Dawn could've shown a lot of maturity if she would've stood up for her. Oh, and it wasn't her house at all, she's a minor, she owns no part of it.

But the Potentials were definitely the ones who made me the most angry! Buffy saved all their lives, she let them stay in her house for free, she fed them, and she trained them. They were potential slayers, it was their duty to be willing to die to save the world. Rona complained a lot, but she sure wasn't complaining when Buffy saved her from the Bringers. They were all fine when they got to pal around and have little training sessions in the backyard, but then when they were expected to actually try and save the world, they got cold feet. The Potentials were all cowards.

I'll end on this. Buffy didn't own anyone there. It's tough to have to risk your life, even for something as big as saving the world. But that house belonged to Buffy. If anyone had a problem with following her orders, they should leave, not complain until Buffy had to leave. Put me in Buffy's shoes, and I'd be saying "You can follow orders, or you can pack your things and get out by sunrise." Anyone who didn't want to do either could leave on a stretcher.

[LadyLavinia]

In the U.S. military, soldiers are required to follow any lawful orders given to them by a superior officer, REGARDLESS of whether it will get them killed or how stupid it is. When the Potentials first showed up, they were all ready to fall in line, learn how to be Slayers, and be part of the Slayer army fighting the First.

You're comparing the Potentials to U.S. Army soldiers? Are you kidding? Buffy never had that kind of authority over them. She never had the right to hunt them down and put them behind bars if they had decided to go AWOL.


So, while I think Buffy might not have been thinking in terms of the group--because going back in to the vineyard is exactly what she would do while on her own--the Potentials had no right to question her authority and kick her out.


I'm amazed at how hypocritical people can be. Honestly. In the past seasons, when Buffy continuously resisted Giles' attempt to keep her on the Slayer path and disregard her private life, the viewers cheered Buffy. When she resisted and eventually rejected the authority of the Watchers' Council, the fans cheered. When she resisted the authority of the Initiative, the fans cheered.

Buy when Buffy became an authority figure in Season 7 and ended up being rejected by the Potentials for her own flaws and bad judgement calls . . . the fans condemned them for not blindly following her.

Apparently, it was okay for Buffy to resist or reject authority figures. But when she became an authority figure - and not a very good one at that, the fans decided that no one had the right to resist or reject her.

I also find it interesting that Giles was the one person who had received the least criticism from the fans. He was the one who had insisted that Buffy lead the Potentials. He was the one who had taught her to be a killer, instead of a leader. And when she failed to become an effective leader - no surprise there - he was the one who constantly complained about her ineffectiveness. And then to make matters worse, he betrayed her by trying to get Spike killed behind her back . . . and never expressed any remorse for his actions. Naturally this pissed off Buffy. But when she finally rejected his role as her authority figure, he became resentful and even more critical . . . and stabbed her in the back, again. And yet, the fans ended up expressing hostility toward characters like the Potentials (especially Kennedy and Rona), Robin Wood, Dawn and the Scoobies. I guess as a long established authority figure, Giles was exempt from their hostility. Well, from the hostility of most fans. There are those who keep claiming that Giles had changed during Season 7. And there were those who condemned him as much as they condemned the others. By the way, I don't think that Giles had changed. I think that Buffy's view of him had.

If there is one thing I will condemn all of them - Dawn, the Potentials, the Scoobies, Wood and Giles - for is tossing Buffy out of her house. It was her house. If they did not want to follow her, they should have left. But Buffy is also to blame for allowing them to kick her out of her own home.

[Blondie Bear]

You're comparing the Potentials to U.S. Army soldiers? Are you kidding? Buffy never had that kind of authority over them. She never had the right to hunt them down and put them behind bars if they had decided to go AWOL.

I'm not so much comparing as using them as an example. No, she couldn't have hunted them down and killed them for deserting. (She wouldn't need to; we saw what happened when Annabel tried it. But that's beside the point.) But the idea is still basically the same. They're fighting a war. Someone has to have the final say. That someone was Buffy. Period.


I'm amazed at how hypocritical people can be. Honestly. In the past seasons, when Buffy continuously resisted Giles' attempt to keep her on the Slayer path and disregard her private life, the viewers cheered Buffy. When she resisted and eventually rejected the authority of the Watchers' Council, the fans cheered. When she resisted the authority of the Initiative, the fans cheered.

Buy when Buffy became an authority figure in Season 7 and ended up being rejected by the Potentials for her own flaws and bad judgement calls . . . the fans condemned them for not blindly following her.

Apparently, it was okay for Buffy to resist or reject authority figures. But when she became an authority figure - and not a very good one at that, the fans decided that no one had the right to resist or reject her.


I think this is a slightly different thing. Buffy never chose to be a Slayer. She was forced into it. She had no say in where she went or who was the boss of her. I personally think that--especially in S1--her constant whining about having a personal life was selfish and annoying. But guess what? She was a teenager. They (as a group, not any individuals on this board, of course) tend to be selfish and annoying. When the Council became oppressive, she quit. When they agreed to take her opinions and tactics into account and quit being so domineering, she rejoined them, this time on a more level playing field. The Potentials HAD a choice; they chose to join Buffy for their protection and to help her fight. They followed her willingly until they decided they didn't like that people die in war, and then they quit for completely selfish reasons.

I also find it interesting that Giles was the one person who had received the least criticism from the fans. He was the one who had insisted that Buffy lead the Potentials. He was the one who had taught her to be a killer, instead of a leader. And when she failed to become an effective leader - no surprise there - he was the one who constantly complained about her ineffectiveness. And then to make matters worse, he betrayed her by trying to get Spike killed behind her back . . . and never expressed any remorse for his actions. Naturally this pissed off Buffy. But when she finally rejected his role as her authority figure, he became resentful and even more critical . . . and stabbed her in the back, again. And yet, the fans ended up expressing hostility toward characters like the Potentials (especially Kennedy and Rona), Robin Wood, Dawn and the Scoobies. I guess as a long established authority figure, Giles was exempt from their hostility. Well, from the hostility of most fans. There are those who keep claiming that Giles had changed during Season 7. And there were those who condemned him as much as they condemned the others. By the way, I don't think that Giles had changed. I think that Buffy's view of him had.

If there is one thing I will condemn all of them - Dawn, the Potentials, the Scoobies, Wood and Giles - for is tossing Buffy out of her house. It was her house. If they did not want to follow her, they should have left. But Buffy is also to blame for allowing them to kick her out of her own home.

I blame Giles almost more than anyone else. That one line of his completely destroyed everything. You're right; he had set her up as the boss of them, and that, unfortunately, made her leadership hinge on his word. And he revoked it because he didn't like who she'd grown up to be and that she insisted that Spike was necessary to the cause. He used his influence to take revenge on her for having her own opinions and following them. I think that's despicable. And hypocritical; he'd left so that she'd grow into her own person, and then didn't like the person she'd become, expecting to have the same amount of influence over her even though he had abandoned her. He expects to have it both ways, and he can't.

And kicking her out of her own house was just the ultimate insult. Especially from Dawn. "It's my house, too" . . . no, it's not. She didn't help pay the bills. NONE of them did. The house belonged to Buffy more than it belonged to anyone else. I'd like to say that I wouldn't have left, but things could have gotten very awkward if Buffy had insisted that THEY all leave--though she had every right to do so.

[LadyLavinia]

I'm sorry but I don't buy your arguments. I don't see any justification for condemning the Potentials for rejecting Buffy's authority. They had every right to do so, in my opinion. I don't care if Buffy never wanted to be the Slayer. Some of the Potentials didn't want to be future Slayers - including Rona. I certainly do not believe there is a final voice of authority in their situation. The Potentials were nothing like military soldiers and sailors. They did not sign some contract in which they gave up their free will over to Buffy. When Buffy led the Scoobies in the past, they did not blindly follow her lead. They gave advice and suggestions about what to do during an apocalypse . . . and Buffy heeded what they had to say. Well, sometimes. Buffy could have respected the Potentials the same right, but she didn't. Because she had erroneously believed that they had to follow her lead without any question. There is nothing legally binding about the Potentials following Buffy. If they wanted to follow her . . . fine. If they don't, they had every right to reject her authority.

I personally think that--especially in S1--her constant whining about having a personal life was selfish and annoying. But guess what? She was a teenager. They (as a group, not any individuals on this board, of course) tend to be selfish and annoying. When the Council became oppressive, she quit.

I saw nothing wrong with Buffy wanting a personal life. Frankly, she should have followed her desires. Instead, she allowed guilt, fear of being different and some mistaken belief that she had no choices to drive her into the lifestyle of a Slayer. If Buffy had blindly followed the Council's dictates that she be the Slayer in the past, she only has herself to blame.

Were the Potentials being selfish in rejecting Buffy? Probably. Probably not. So what? They had every right to do so. Buffy kept giving them speeches on how she can protect them and help them learn to fight against evil. And when she failed to deliver by "Dirty Girls", they rejected her. You may not have liked it, but they had every right to do so. They were not legally bound to Buffy. Nor were they anything like military soldiers.


Sometimes I think that adhering to authority figures seems more important to people than exercising one's own free will - at least free will that does not lead to a deliberate attempt to harm another.

[Blondie Bear]

In my opinion, that rejection of her authority should have led to them LEAVING, not KICKING HER OUT. That's the big issue I have. You don't like the way I'm leading? Fine. Leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. But outright mutiny was NOT the answer. Even Faith said so.

[LadyLavinia]

In my opinion, that rejection of her authority should have led to them LEAVING, not KICKING HER OUT. That's the big issue I have. You don't like the way I'm leading? Fine. Leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. But outright mutiny was NOT the answer. Even Faith said so.


That was Buffy's fault, not the others. They were wrong to kick her out of the house, I agree. But she was the one who let them kick her out. She was the one who should have told them to get out.

[GATEGOD]

That was Buffy's fault, not the others. They were wrong to kick her out of the house, I agree. But she was the one who let them kick her out. She was the one who should have told them to get out.

Yea, but where else were they supposed to go? Her house was the only place where they had the equipment, and weapons, and places where they trained/slept/ Everything. Buffy probably took that into consideration. They didn't want her to lead them. None of them... Why would she stay and fight then if someone else wanted to lead and put the girls in danger. She wanted to lead, if she couldn't then she wasn't going to follow. It was a weight off her back, not being responsible for their lives anymore. It left her broken their betrayal! But the ever great Spike came in and saved the day in one of my favorite scenes in season 7 when he comforted and stayed with her.

:cheering:

[white avenger]

Yea, but where else were they supposed to go? Her house was the only place where they had the equipment, and weapons, and places where they trained/slept/ Everything. Buffy probably took that into consideration. They didn't want her to lead them. None of them... Why would she stay and fight then if someone else wanted to lead and put the girls in danger. She wanted to lead, if she couldn't then she wasn't going to follow. It was a weight off her back, not being responsible for their lives anymore. It left her broken their betrayal! But the ever great Spike came in and saved the day in one of my favorite scenes in season 7 when he comforted and stayed with her.

:cheering:

The point is, however, it was HER house, HER equipment, HER weapons, and HER leadership. It should've been a package deal: take my swords, play by my rules (sort of like the kid that owns the football gets to be the quarterback, or he takes his ball home). There were plenty of abandoned houses in Sunnydale by that time, so housing wouldn't be a problem, and a raid on any local sporting goods store, hardware store, or Army Navy Surplus store would have yielded more axes, knives, bows, arrows, and hatchets than they could possibly need. A machete with a point ground onto it makes a passable substitute for a sword, and baseball bats make great clubs. Housing and weaponry should never have been an issue, only an excuse.

If Giles, Wood, and whoever else wanted new leadership, whether it be Faith, Giles, or Andrew, THEY should have been the ones to leave, not Buffy. The only really good thing about the whole fiasco was when Spike came back and tore into the whole bunch of them for their betrayal. Whether you like the guy or not, whether you favor him with Buffy or not, that was Spike's finest hour to date, surpassed only by his speech to Buffy in the next episode.

[LadyLavinia]

Yea, but where else were they supposed to go? Her house was the only place where they had the equipment, and weapons, and places where they trained/slept/ Everything. Buffy probably took that into consideration.


Surely you're not justifying Buffy being kicked out of her own house? Her own property?

[GATEGOD]

If Giles, Wood, and whoever else wanted new leadership, whether it be Faith, Giles, or Andrew, THEY should have been the ones to leave,

Surely you're not justifying Buffy being kicked out of her own house? Her own property?

Nope I think everyone who betrayed her should have been smacked in the face and laughed at. But she left because they didn't want her. This wasn't just her home anymore. You have to get that to understand why I believe after what they said and did that was all she could do. If she told them to leave.. they might have, but they had set up shop and were trying to fight a war that could consume all of there lives. This was HQ. They couldn't just up and leave.

[LadyLavinia]

Nope I think everyone who betrayed her should have been smacked in the face and laughed at.

Why? Because she's Buffy? Why should she be immune? She screwed up. The Potentials, the Scoobies and the others had every right to reject her leadership. There was no law that they had to blindly follow her. Granted, they had no right to kick her out of the house. But then, Buffy should not have allowed them to do so.

But as far as I'm concerned, they had every right to reject her. Betrayed? Oh please! What is this idiotic idea that Buffy can turn her back on someone if he or she had failed her, but anyone else cannot do the same to her? Talk about hypocricy!

[GATEGOD]

Why? Because she's Buffy? Why should she be immune? She screwed up. The Potentials, the Scoobies and the others had every right to reject her leadership. There was no law that they had to blindly follow her. Granted, they had no right to kick her out of the house. But then, Buffy should not have allowed them to do so.

But as far as I'm concerned, they had every right to reject her. Betrayed? Oh please! What is this idiotic idea that Buffy can turn her back on someone if he or she had failed her, but anyone else cannot do the same to her? Talk about hypocricy!

I only say betrayed because every one, every one told her that wanted to change, that they didn't think she could lead them. Every potential, every friends, all of them told her off. In my mind that is betrayal. To call her out in her own home and infront of everyone. Not cool.

[Lyle]

Buffy definitely shouldn't have let anyone kick her out of her own house. That was partly her fault. However everyone else is to blame as well, because kicking someone out of their own house is just something you don't do.

And I agree that the Potentials (and everyone else involved except maybe Faith) betrayed her because of all that Buffy had done for them. Giles just brought the Potentials to Buffy's house, no one ever asked Buffy if they could stay there. Buffy protected them, provided them with food and shelter, and she rescued many more Potentials from the Bringers (including Rona, who should've been left for the Bringers). Buffy did so much for them, but when she actually wanted them to follow her lead they decided they didn't wanna listen to her anymore. They betrayed her, plain and simple. Her friends betrayed her as well, because none of them (besides Spike) would stand by her side and back her up. They knew what she'd done in the past, all the times she'd saved the world, they should've trusted her.

Buffy was the one who'd been in situations like this before, she'd always found a way to save the world, and that's why she should've been recognized as the leader from the start. No one else had done what she'd done. Instead, Buffy makes one mistake and everyone wants Faith, who just got out of jail, to lead them because "she's a Slayer too."

[LadyLavinia]

What is this "betrayed" nonsense? What utter crap! This sounds like nothing but double standard nonsense. It's okay for Buffy to turn her back on Giles after he had failed her . . . or the Watcher's Council, but the Scoobies and the Potentials had no right to "betray" her?

Buffy had it coming. Yes, they had no right to kick her out of her own home. But like an idiot, she was the one who allowed them. She could have told them to get out. Instead, she left.

As for the others "betraying" her, they had every right to do so. Just because she's the main character in the series, does not mean that everyone has to BLINDLY follow her, even when she is making mistakes that are costing lives.

I only say betrayed because every one, every one told her that wanted to change, that they didn't think she could lead them. Every potential, every friends, all of them told her off. In my mind that is betrayal. To call her out in her own home and infront of everyone. Not cool.

What utter crap! Not cool my ass! Buffy got what she had deserved. She's been treating everyone like General von Summers. She was a bad leader. And the Potentials and the Scoobies knew it.


And what the hell is this hostility over Rona? What the hell has she ever done? All she did was make a snarky comment about Buffy after the latter left and now you're claiming that she should have been left for the Bringers? I guess that you're one of those who think that Rona should be "lovingly" following Buffy's every move or worshipping Miss Blonde Ambition at her side. What is she supposed to be? The Faithful Sidekick? I say kudos to Rona! At least she got her priorities right. And it's not blindly following Buffy or anyone else.

[Lyle]

First of all, if that double standard comment was directed at me, I don't see where I've showcased a double standard, considering I didn't mention anything about Giles or the Watcher's Council. If the comment was directed at someone else then disregard this paragraph.

I don't see why Buffy losing one battle suddenly makes her a bad leader. No leader wins every battle, no matter how good they are. Buffy had shown numerous times in the past that she was in fact a good leader. She'd lost battles before, but in the end she'd always found a way to win the war, against every Big Bad the group faced. She'd been saving the world for 6 years. Her friends knew her track record, and they should have supported her. It's not blindly following, it's supporting someone with a history of winning. She even said she'd let them discuss strategies and what not, so it's not like they would've had no say in the issue. And I don't see what's wrong with acting like a general, when you have a group of that many people, someone has to step up and lead. Letting everyone have their input about what to do works fine when there's only about 4-8 people, like in the earlier seasons, but when you have 30 or more people, the 20 Potentials who have never been in this type of situation before need to either shut up and listen, or pack their bags. It may suck, but it's what has to be done in a war.

The hostility towards Rona was because she was an ungrateful brat. Buffy saved her life, and Rona acted like it was some big chore to be there. She bad mouthed Buffy several times, and no, I don't expect her to worship Buffy, but when someone saves your life and lets you stay in their home, you at least show them some respect. It's not about her disagreeing with Buffy as much as it's about her being disrespectful throughout her stay there.

[sosa lola]

When watching S7 I actually saw Buffy's banishment coming and was expecting a mutiny at some point later in the season. To be honest, I would've been dissappointed if nothing had happened because the whole season was building up to it. Like many others here, I think the scene itself was awkwardly written and less-than-perfectly executed but I think it had to happen given the way Buffy behaves during the season.

I'm not saying she had it coming really, or that it was totally her fault. Rather, she had to start leading a considerably larger group of people than she had before most of whom she didn't even know, and she didn't know how to deal with the situation so it led to her detaching herself from the others more and taking a superior position. Her attitude started irritating the people around her because I think she started increasingly clearly indicating by her behavior towards others that she's better than them and that they should just do whatever she says because she knows best. She probably did it subconsciously since it was exactly what she had been afraid of for a long time, according to her conversation with Holden in "Conversations with Dead People". All in all, I think Buffy is incredibly well and consistently written during S7, and though I did feel sorry for her in "Empty Places", I think it was bound to happen and in the end a good thing for Buffy herself.

Her dialogue in the end scene shows to me just how far she's come and why it was necessary that she'd have some perspective forced upon her. I don't think her plan to go back to the vineyard was that bad but the way she wasn't ready to consider or even hear what the others might have to say was so indiscreet and arrogant that it was bound to get a bad reaction. And when that reaction came she was utterly surprised that someone would question her ultimate leadership, even her friends who were supposed to know better. Her perception of the situation was extremely one-sided, just everyone betraying her when she had just been trying to do the job everyone had pushed onto her without a second thought. I don't feel it was her fault that she handled the new situation badly but it doesn't change the fact that she did.

Her line about Faith leading the others into a disaster is an especially cruel one since it basically means that Faith will inevitably fail no matter what she does and is a bad leader unlike Buffy herself. It's unfair because Faith hadn't actually promoted herself as the leader and still Buffy started blindly throwing such mean comments about her skills. Even so, she ignores the fact that she had just returned from leading everyone into a disaster herself. Of course it's a very natural thing to do, start blaming others as self-defence, but her comment must've stung Faith pretty hard in that situation. I also think the line embodies the way Buffy has become, instead of "The Slayer Who Has Friends", "The Slayer Who Has Lots Of People Living In Her House".

And while talking about Faith, I don't think for a second the others were suggesting that her right to be the leader was just as big as Buffy's was because they were ready to accept her as the leader. It was simply a way to prop up their criticism of Buffy, to have something concrete to stand up to her with.

As for the lack of apologies later on, I don't think the situation called for them. They might've not been completely okay with each other but I think Buffy had as much to apologize as the others, and so they could pretty much call it even since I believe that both parties started to understand what they had done wrong.

[LadyLavinia]

When watching S7 I actually saw Buffy's banishment coming and was expecting a mutiny at some point later in the season. To be honest, I would've been dissappointed if nothing had happened because the whole season was building up to it. Like many others here, I think the scene itself was awkwardly written and less-than-perfectly executed but I think it had to happen given the way Buffy behaves during the season.


How was the scene awkward and less-than-perfectly executed? How was it supposed to be perfectly executed?

The hostility towards Rona was because she was an ungrateful brat. Buffy saved her life, and Rona acted like it was some big chore to be there.

Oh I see. Rona has to get down on her knees and thank Buffy for leading her into that battle against Caleb where she had her arm broken. Or for failing to tell her and the other Potentials about Spike's trigger, while they were all under the same roof.

I say BS to that. If Rona wants to get pissy about Buffy's past mistakes, she has every right to do so. Screw Buffy and her feelings. She brought this mess on herself.

If I had been Rona, I would tell Dawn to take her "shut up" comment and shove it up her ass.

[Blondie Bear]

I had a problem with Rona's attitude from the beginning.

Oh, here I thought "hungry" was English for "hungry."

Yeah, well there'll be plenty more of those [dead people] soon enough. We're dropping like flies here.

Like this'll do any good. I mean, what's the point?

ANDREW Way to keep up morale in a crisis. (jumps to the ground) No wonder Buffy's the leader.

Everyone else is climbing down the scaffolding too.

RONA (under her breath) Some leader.

That's the plan? Spread out? That thing is gonna kill Buffy, and then it's gonna come after us. For all we know, it's killing her right now.

And that's just the first episode she's in. Who needs the First around to destroy morale when you've got someone like that?

[Lyle]

Oh I see. Rona has to get down on her knees and thank Buffy for leading her into that battle against Caleb where she had her arm broken. Or for failing to tell her and the other Potentials about Spike's trigger, while they were all under the same roof.

I say BS to that. If Rona wants to get pissy about Buffy's past mistakes, she has every right to do so. Screw Buffy and her feelings. She brought this mess on herself.

If I had been Rona, I would tell Dawn to take her "shut up" comment and shove it up her ass.

I like how you conveniently don't quote the part of my post where I said "and no, I don't expect her to worship Buffy." I just think she should've shown much more respect towards the one who saved her life. Instead, just like Blondie Bear's post shows, she had been disrespectful from the beginning. She was acting that way before they knew about Spike's trigger, and before the battle against Caleb. It's not like that stuff happened, then Rona got an attitude about everything. She had one since the beginning.

And if I was Dawn, or Buffy, or Xander, or Spike, or any of the Scoobies for that matter, by the 2nd or 3rd little comment Rona made I'd be telling her to find a new place to stay.

[sosa lola]

I do think that scene of Empty Places is poorly written, I rather like the first version they wrote better, the one where we <i>see</i> Xander and Willow being shocked and hurt that Buffy didn't trust them, the one where Willow and Xander offer Buffy to rest because she hadn't been sleeping for awhile, the one where Dawn gives Buffy a choice before telling her to leave. That version is much better written than this one.

I think you guys are hard on Rona, she's scared, I might just act like her if I were in her shoes. Reading S8, she seems to come a long way.

[LadyLavinia]

I had a problem with Rona's attitude from the beginning.











And that's just the first episode she's in. Who needs the First around to destroy morale when you've got someone like that?



Oh, I'm sorry. I guess you're pissed at her for not kissing Buffy's feet and treating the latter like a god . . . despite the fact that Buffy had endangered her life by allowed a triggered Spike in the house and made a stupid decision that nearly cost Rona her life.

This is hypocricy at its worst. It's okay for Buffy to thumb her nose at authority figures. But when Buffy became the authority figure, many of you demanded that Rona and the other Potentials follow her blindly like good little Stepford Wives. Why? Because Buffy is the main character of the series.

I cheer Rona for questioning Buffy's authority. That tells me that she's not stupid enough to blindly follow someone's orders.

Even in the end, Buffy had to realize that she could not simply dictate the actions of the Potentials. She needed their cooperation. And she had to learn to include them in the decision making process. Apparently, this lesson seemed to be lost on many fans, because they don't like the idea of someone turning his or her back on the exaulted Buffy Anne Summers.


I do think that scene of Empty Places is poorly written, I rather like the first version they wrote better, the one where we see Xander and Willow being shocked and hurt that Buffy didn't trust them, the one where Willow and Xander offer Buffy to rest because she hadn't been sleeping for awhile, the one where Dawn gives Buffy a choice before telling her to leave. That version is much better written than this one.

In other words, you want everyone acting in a rational, where everything is handled neatly. The problem is that life isn't neat, rational or orderly. I'm glad that Whedon changed the story. The change made it interesting to me.

[Blondie Bear]

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess you're pissed at her for not kissing Buffy's feet and treating the latter like a god . . . despite the fact that Buffy had endangered her life by allowed a triggered Spike in the house and made a stupid decision that nearly cost Rona her life.

No, actually, I'm pissed at her for having a snotty attitude right from the start--BEFORE anything happened to her. Buffy saved her from the Bringers, and she acted angry that there were even Bringers around, as if Buffy should be some god who can just make things all better.

This is hypocricy at its worst.

We're not making with the ad hominem attacks. Please don't, either. I'm trying to explain what I feel about what happened this season. If you don't agree, great. Fine. Wonderful. But don't call those of us who don't agree with you names. Most of us are being polite and trying to frame our opinions in a way that makes it clear that they are OUR opinions. It wouldn't kill you to do the same.

[BuffyBloke]

I just spent a good while reading this thread and I thought since Empty Places and this particular scene are my favourite of the whole season, I thought I'd give my comments on it.

I can understand why everyone felt the need to attack and Buffy about her plan. It was a dangerous plan, and they had just lost two more potentials at the vineyard , and before that. They felt nervous about going there unprepared.

Buffy's mistake was not carefully thinking about how she was going to execute this plan, it was clearly a plan that was not going to be thought through properly. Calib and the first and those ...(forgotten the name) had been waiting for them and well , look what happened in Dirty Girls.

And let's face it, Would you have wanted to go back into a dangerous situation with a reckless leader? I know I would not have. . A proper call would have to done some survelliance on that place at least before gonig back a second time. The one where Faith and Buffy are out checking the place, that would have been a perfect scene for them both to get a feel for the place.

Back to this particular scene
The show down was great, everyone will interpreate what they thought of this differently , I thought it was great we saw some sort of verbal fight between Buffy, the slaves (err I mean Potentials lol) and her friends. It was about time someone stood up to Buffy and questioned her decision making. Before the fight at the vineyard, there was something about Buffy's leadership/decision making that seemed to be not quite right. It was all about her. It was not about making the right decision for what was best of the group, even with the potentials. When you make decisions like this , especially when she was gambling with young girls lives, she should have considered the impacts of her decisions and their consequences. And this is what everyone was worried about - how she could act so irresponsibly..without thinking? And during Season 7 she'd demonstrated that.

It seemed Buffy was not clearly understanding their concerns. It was very one sided to her and she wanted it to be her way or no way.. and she was not willing to hear out other ideas and that was a shame because I thought Buffy should have least given some of the potentials, including Kennedy, some legwork in bringing up ideas on how they could have best executed the "plan." if they had to go back again...

Giles attacking Buffy with "Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that should be addressed." was a great way to start the attack on Buffy, but I don't understand why Buffy was being immature with her comment about Spike. Even though it did seem from her POV that Spike was sent away but I would not have thought Giles would have done this on purpose.

Dawn was a little cow here, how could she kick Buffy out of the house? I mean seriously, she's the one that doesn't own it, what should have happened was Buffy go upstairs and rest, it should have headed in that direction, Dawn had no particular right to kick her own sister out of the house. She sat back and watched everyone else attack her sister, and then she thought 'hey since she doesnt agree with us, I'm going to kick her out'.... She should have at leat somewhat voiced her concern to her sister privately... along with Faith,Giles,Willow, there was no need for it to spill with the potentials. (the trusting and the decison making/leadership baddy waggon conversation).

It was a really dramatic scene from my point of view and I thought it was handled well, except for Dawn.. It was probably the best thing in season 7 I loved, and I happen to love season seven more because of the hidden tension that was esculating throughout the season.

[WatcherByBirthright]

After all the Scoobies and Potentials had been through, they had every right to begin to doubt their leader and her general tactics. Their arguments always seemed pretty reasonable to me, and don't forgot, it clear wasn't an easy decision for those closest to Buffy. (Note Dawn's tearful farewell and Faith suddenly rushing after Buffy to take command again).

[sosa lola]

I actually liked Dawn asking Buffy to leave. It was a wise decision she had made. Buffy needed to leave. She came back stronger, sure Spike helped, but he wouldn't have if Dawn didn't ask Buffy to leave. Dawn was doing it in a tough love kinda way, why else was she crying right after Buffy left? Why else was she quiet and upset in the next episode, thinking about Buffy and what's happening with her?

Still, I enjoyed the first version of this scene for the reasons I stated above, it felt more in character to me.

[white avenger]

I guess this is just gonna be another one of hose "astronaut vs cave men" things, where there are valid reasons for each opinion.

[Keanoite]

I would just like to make it clear that this board is here for people to express their opinions freely without ridicule or allowing arguments to devolve into childish name calling. Everyone has varying opinions, no-ones is more valid than anyone elses. I ask everyone to keep that in mind when they reply.

[Joyce Summers]

Like many of you said, I do think the final scene in Empty Places was an inevitable place to come to. Since the Potentials had been arriving non-stop and Buffy had had to take on more and more responsibility she had been slowly removing herself from equal and friend to leader and boss. But I think this was a necessary thing. She no longer had just the Scoobies she had troops essentially and so to keep order she had to treat them as such.
However in all this she was forgetting that her friends that had been there since the beginning were there too and while she may (reasonably or not) believe the Potentials were too green to have thier opinion counted I think she should have taken into consideration what her friends had to say as not only were they her friends but also they had been as many as these wars as she had.
I agreed with her wanting to go back to the vineyard- watching the episode the first time I had the same feeling that there was still something there, that it was necessary to go back, but she also had to understand that the group was still shaken by the last attack on the vineyard.
However I didn't approve of how the group said she keeps making these decisions and they keep paying the price. Everyone pays a price in war- it's hard and it's painful but it's the way it is, and Buffy has had her fair share of loss as well. So that was an unfair argument.
Also what annoyed me was the group were so busy rallying against Buffy they didn't even hear Faith's protests. If they were so interested in fair and equal treatment they should spent a moment listening to Faith saying she didn't want to be the leader. She'd help but Buffy was leader material.
Yes, they had to make their feelings and opinions heard as Buffy had been ignoring them for a while, but to throw her out of the house was a bit extreme. Especially with Dawn. I was quite shocked by that as at the time I was like 'You can't throw your sister out of her own house!!' I mean Buffy was the one letting them all live there and I thought they had no rights to throw her out whether she agreed with them or not. It was her home; she was the one who had been paying for it, keeping it for the past two years.

As for Rona's comment 'ding dong the witch is dead'? That really got me mad. It's like 'You've made your point as a group, but that's just downright disrespectful' and despite how mad I was at Dawn at that moment I was totally behind the venom in her voice when she says shut up. I mean to make a comment like that was completely vicious and uncalled for. It was also immature and if they believe they can lead the ranks without Buffy, then they need to leave such immaturity behind. Rona was always miss mopey negative though. Potential wise I always preferred Vi and Amanda. Can't put my finger on why, I just did.

While I understood everybody's actions, throughout the scene my sympathy, empathy and my side was with Buffy all the way I'm afraid.

[LadyLavinia]

I had a problem with Rona's attitude from the beginning.











And that's just the first episode she's in. Who needs the First around to destroy morale when you've got someone like that?


I had no problem with Rona's attitude. If she didn't care for Buffy's leadership style, she didn't care for it. She had every right to express her displeasure. I don't recall many fans being particularly enamoured of General von Buffy. But since one of the Potentials - namely Rona - was the one who complained about her - everyone is bashing Rona.

How hypocritical!


Yes, they had to make their feelings and opinions heard as Buffy had been ignoring them for a while, but to throw her out of the house was a bit extreme.


I'm wondering why Buffy had allowed herself to be tossed out of the house. I can understand them rejecting her leadership. But why did Buffy allow them to kick her out of the house? Why not simply insist that they all leave? Was it that hard for her to do this?


I like how you conveniently don't quote the part of my post where I said "and no, I don't expect her to worship Buffy." I just think she should've shown much more respect towards the one who saved her life.

Apparently, you've forgotten that Buffy's leadership led Rona to getting her arm broken by Caleb. Rona was supposed to forget that? Rona was supposed to show more respect to Buffy, after the latter led that disasterous attack upon Caleb at the vineyard? I don't think so. If I were Rona, I would say "Screw Buffy's leadership!" after that debacle.

[Blondie Bear]

My point with the quotes was that Rona started being a bitca BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE HAPPENED. None of what you're talking about had gone on when Rona was sniping at everyone in "Showtime." Afterward, it's a different matter, though I still think everyone could have handled the situation better, INCLUDING Rona.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Blondie Bear - seriously :banghead:

[LadyLavinia]

My point with the quotes was that Rona started being a bitca BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE HAPPENED. None of what you're talking about had gone on when Rona was sniping at everyone in "Showtime." Afterward, it's a different matter, though I still think everyone could have handled the situation better, INCLUDING Rona.


WHO . . . CARES? Rona is a naturally sarcastic person, who resents authority. She was being obvious that the only reason she ended up in Sunnydale, was because she wanted protection from the Bringers. Was she supposed to be this goody-two-shoes who blindly accepts everything that people tell her? Was she not allowed to have her own personality?

Buffy was a b*tch before she became a Slayer. She also shared a great deal of Rona's sarcasm and resistance to authority. And a good deal of her b*tchiness remained, years later. Am I supposed to tolerate her flaws, but not Rona's?


What is it with fans that recurring characters like Rona and Kennedy, whose flaws are not tolerated. . . yet, they tolerate the obvious flaws of Buffy and the main supporting characters? Or make excuses? Isn't that being hypocritical?

[Blondie Bear]

It's a matter of being polite. She was a guest in Buffy's house. I get that she was scared, but there were more constructive ways of expressing it. And since obviously we are never ever going to agree on this and could go on arguing until Judgment Day, I refuse to waste any more of my time on this argument.

[LadyLavinia]

It's a matter of being polite. She was a guest in Buffy's house. I get that she was scared, but there were more constructive ways of expressing it. And since obviously we are never ever going to agree on this and could go on arguing until Judgment Day, I refuse to waste any more of my time on this argument.


It sounds to me like you're trying to dig up excuses to condemn Rona. It also sounds as if you had demanded that Rona be this perfect, mindless teenager who should have adhere to authority figures, no matter what. I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying it.

[BuffyBloke]

I had no problem with Rona at all actually, her line made me mad too, but who honestly could blame her? Caleb broke her arm and she blamed Buffy for it because basically she went in there charging in ,playing right into Caleb's hands. LOL but however she would have kept on going if Dawn didn't tell her to shut-up though. That's the kind of person Rona is. And let's not forget I think everyone was mistrustful with Buffy at this point.