Get Out.

[Keanoite]

Ok there has been alot of discussion about the Scoobies betrayal of Buffy when they kicked her out. Mostly it has focused on Buffy and Xander but I wanted to include everyone else, so that means Willow, Dawn and Giles.

Persoanlly those scenes made me like the Scoobs a little less. It was mutiny as White Avenger so fittingly put it. I'm especially angry at Giles, of any of them there he had a duty to stand with his Slayer.

What is everyone else's view.

[sosa lola]

Here's my poor attempt at explaining the characters:

Buffy:

After all these disappointments, Buffy needs to win, she needs everybody to trust her ability to win. Just like in Showtime when she had asked Xander and Willow to find a place for her to kill the Ubervamp with the potentials watching her win. Not to mention, she has this neat idea about the high school not being guarded. You know the feeling you get when you're so sure about something and you want your buds to trust your judgment but they just don't. It can be frustrating.

Xander:

I always thought that Xander was supposed to be sympathized with, but I guess not in this board ;)

Here comes the significance of Xander losing an eye. Xander had to get hurt badly after he had backed up Buffy in her 'reckless' plan in Dirty Girls. The fact that Xander was so loyal to Buffy and that his pay for this loyalty was getting maimed, followed by Buffy showing no sympathy (at least in front of Xander) and then later Giles mentions that Buffy doesn't trust them anymore, all that made Xander break. He wasn't broken when he lost his eye, he was broken that his loyalty and attempt to be strong didn't mean anything to Buffy. Who's the person who had backed up Buffy when everybody ganged up on her in Dirty Girls? It was Xander, the keeper of the house, the center of unite. When Xander got hurt, the house broke down and Buffy got kicked out.

Some fans say, "So he got a booboo, big deal, he had signed up seven years ago to fight with Buffy, he should know there'll be consequences." He knows. Why else was he understanding in the hospital, but losing a part of your body isn't something you can pfft away. And again I repeat, that wasn't what has broken him.


Willow:

She just gave her opinion. She didn't like Buffy's plan. As for her out-of-characterness when she let Buffy leave the house, Willow was obviously crushed by Xander's injury. She showed disappointment in Buffy when she didn't stay by Xander's side a bit longer in the hospital. Willow noticed the change in Buffy's character. Willow is the most supportive friend of Buffy. She supports Buffy even when she doesn't like her decisions. Now this time she doesn't support Buffy. Willow, being the sweet girl she was, told Buffy so gently that she didn't approve of her plan. I was shocked it was Faith who followed Buffy outside and not Willow. But then Willow, like Xander and Giles, is a minor character at this point of the series.

Giles:

Also like Willow, gave his opinion that, no, he didn't like Buffy's plan. He's also annoyed that Buffy still accused him of disloyalty because of one mistake he was doing for the greater good. Giles is a man that will do anything to save the world, even if it was behind his friends' back. Wasn't Giles who hinted that he will kill Dawn in S5? Wasn't Giles who killed an innocent (Ben) for the world? Why won't Giles kill Spike for the world then? Spike was still under The First influance and The First had stated it had bigger plans for Spike. Shouldn't Spike be chained? Wasn't that what Giles had asked Buffy? To have Spike chained? She didn't listen to Giles obviously because of her feelings for Spike. While going behind Buffy's back was wrong of Giles, I still feel that Buffy's resentment of him stayed for quite a long time to the point where she started to unfairly accuse him of any little thing.

Dawn:

Dawn was mostly hurt for what happened to Xander. Buffy didn't show any concern over what happened to Xander. We, the audience, know that she cared because of the touching picture scene, but the Scoobies didn't see that. We've seen Dawn asking Buffy if Xander was okay but Buffy kept ignoring her. Then we see Buffy once again ordering the potentials to go at it again with no proof if Buffy was right or wrong. Buffy doesn't take others' suggestions, and she was taking the weight of the world on her shoulders alone. She needed to rest, she needed the others to help her, she shouldn't do it alone. Dawn had tears in her eyes afterwards and snapped at Rona to shut up when she made fun of Buffy. Dawn cares about Buffy, but Buffy needed to rest, she needed to work with them together as a team not as a leader.

Anya:

Anya seems to be resentful towards Buffy ever since Selfless. It's understandable. As for her comment about Buffy's luckiness, I agree that just because she's the slayer, that doesn't make Buffy better than them, but there was no way Buffy was lucky to be a slayer.

Faith:

Of all of them, Faith was the only one who tried to leave resentment out of the discussion. She kept her emotions under control, and had more reason trying to get Buffy to understand that her plan was crazy. But sadly Buffy won't listen to Faith. Faith wanted everybody to calm down. I think the fact that Faith didn't live through the entire crazy atmosphere of season 7, didn't listen to Buffy's speeches, didn't sleep on the thought that she'll be killed any minute had kept her level headed. She was the only one who tried to keep the house from blowing, but since she's no Xander, poor thing couldn't handle the situation alone.


Here's what Drew Greenberg said about this scene:

"The point of that scene was to go back to one of the things that I loved most about college, which is when you take an argument and present both sides of it, and you do your very best to make sure that neither side is right [or] wrong. It's about two very valid points of view. We did our very best in that scene to make sure both points of view were valid. That meant that when Willow chimes in, she doesn't want to hurt Buffy, but she has to stand up and say, 'We have a point of view that you need to listen to,' and Willow was a part of that chorus that came from the rest of the group. I never thought of the final scene as about anybody's loyalty switching from Buffy. I think they were as much trying to protect Buffy as themselves. I think they saw that she was rushing into something that she shouldn't be rushing into."

[Edmund Blackadder]

I've just spent ages putting my POV in two other threads so I'll give a far more condensed view here.

Xanders betrayal was based on his fear of being hurt.

Willows betrayal was based on her fear of the Magics.

Giles betrayal was based on him being upset that Buffy told him she didn't need him anymore(and he's the most adult!!!)

Faith didn't betray, she was forced into a situation.

Dawn was looking out for her sister, there is no betrayal here, only love.

[sosa lola]

I don't think disagreeing with someone's decision could be called betrayal. That's just my opinion, and obviously Drew Greenberg's opinion.

[Keanoite]

I've just spent ages putting my POV in two other threads so I'll give a far more condensed view here.

Xanders betrayal was based on his fear of being hurt.

Willows betrayal was based on her fear of the Magics.

Giles betrayal was based on him being upset that Buffy told him she didn't need him anymore(and he's the most adult!!!)

Faith didn't betray, she was forced into a situation.

Dawn was looking out for her sister, there is no betrayal here, only love.

I agree completely with what you said. Willow, Giles and Xander did not betray Buffy for her own good, so she could learn a valuable lesson. They were all looking out for themselves. When she walked out that door she was gone.period.

This was their chance to show how truly loyal they were to Buffy and they blew it. Throughout the whole series Buffy was always the one to truly carry the burden. When some of the weight fell on the Scoobies they could never handle it. No matter what happened to Buffy in a fight she would ALWAYS be there for her friends and so many times they let her down. I'm not saying that Buffy doesn't have her faults, cuz we all know she does but throwing her out was a new low.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I don't think disagreeing with someone's decision could be called betrayal. That's just my opinion, and obviously Drew Greenberg's opinion.

The betrayal isn't the disagreeing, the betrayal is the way they attack her infront of the 'army' and their false reasoning.

[Keanoite]

This has to be looked at within a military framework, cuz that was what it was. Forget emotions. This was war and they needed to fall into line. The potentials had never experienced this kind of situation before, the scoobies had. They saw Buffy struggling to get the potentials onside and it is their job as her sergeants to back her up. They could hae addressed their issues with her plan in private, by doing it infront of the 'army' they deliberatley undermined her and made it impossible for her to lead.

[Edmund Blackadder]

This has to be looked at within a military framework, cuz that was what it was. Forget emotions. This was war and they needed to fall into line. The potentials had never experienced this kind of situation before, the scoobies had. They saw Buffy struggling to get the potentials onside and it is their job as her sergeants to back her up. They could hae addressed their issues with her plan in private, by doing it infront of the 'army' they deliberatley undermined her and made it impossible for her to lead.


Exactly - I would have had the same misgivings as the gang, but they should have done it in private.

[sosa lola]

The betrayal isn't the disagreeing, the betrayal is the way they attack her infront of the 'army' and their false reasoning.

How did Willow and Xander attack her exactly? Willow said that she wasn't sure of Buffy's plan (she even said it gently, if somewhat, sadly) and Xander said he was trying to see her point but couldn't.

I'm not talking about an army here, I'm talking about two characters who did not push Buffy to be this General. Remember when Willow backed Buffy up in Get It Done? She did it because she thought Buffy had a point. Remember when Buffy was harsh and Xander replied that she should remember that they were her friends, not soldiers. Clearly they didn't want to be soldiers, they wanted to state their opinions and give their suggestions.

Giles was the one who wanted her to be General Buffy, not Xander and Willow. They were there to be supportive friends when they thought she was doing the right thing. They didn't think so in Empty Places and they had stated their opinions.

So I don't think stating your opinion could be called betrayal.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Xander really wasn't trying to see it from her POV.
His cutting remark tells you this. The tone of it even suggests he blames her for the smush and is sure he will end up worse if he follows her plan.

After everything that Buffy has done and sacrificed, not just for the world BUT for her friends, the betrayal comes in the form of them not trusting her and letting their fears take precedence to that and NOT backing her up when everyone else is attacking her.

Willow and Xander, no matter what tone they had, allowed there fears to stop them from telling the potentials, faith and wood that they were wrong, they should have faith and trust in Buffy because she had not let them down in the past. This is what she does, this is where she 'lives' and they turned their back on the friendships because of their fears.

Xander/Willow/Buffy had had this conversation before. She is the Slayer. Friendship aside, she IS the leader of this group, it's her first and foremost task to protect the world from the coming evil and to do that she has to make the tough decisions, which does include taking her friends into a fight they may not survive. Its a sad fact that she has to deal with.

They didn't have to be part of the fight, they wanted to be there BUT you can't go to war with all generals and no soldiers, so they either follow the leader or don't fight.

[GATEGOD]

Ok there has been alot of discussion about the Scoobies betrayal of Buffy when they kicked her out. Mostly it has focused on Buffy and Xander but I wanted to include everyone else, so that means Willow, Dawn and Giles.

Persoanlly those scenes made me like the Scoobs a little less. It was mutiny as White Avenger so fittingly put it. I'm especially angry at Giles, of any of them there he had a duty to stand with his Slayer.

What is everyone else's view.

Pure blood mutiny!!

Giles upset that Buffy won't listen to him so he betrays her.
Willow upset about Xander's eye and see's Buffy pushing away so she betrays her.
Xander pissed about his eye and not even thinking about there friendship betrays her.
Dawn needing attention and not getting any disagrees with Buffy aswell .....
Anya...duh she never agrees with Buffy
Spike, Spike would have slaughtered the entire room to have Buffy stay :( if only he was there!
Faith...well she just stood there ....
Robin..what an idiot! Buffy won't let him kill spike so he Betrays her aswell...

Arg!

eh, plus i still blame Xander for leaving Anya and inevitably leading to her death where in if he never left her then he would never have fought by dawn's side meaning she would probably be alive >.< sounds stupid, but i blame him.

[sosa lola]

Xander really wasn't trying to see it from her POV.

His remark surely sounded sarcastic after he heard that Buffy didn't trust them anymore. I think that what hurt him the most. In the hospital he was understanding about Buffy's need to leave, and didn't seem to blame her, but then when it looked like she didn't care about his injury, didn't trust him, didn't try to listen to the group, he lashed out. I do think he tried to see her point, though, he looked quite interested at first.


After everything that Buffy has done and sacrificed, not just for the world BUT for her friends, the betrayal comes in the form of them not trusting her and letting their fears take precedence to that and NOT backing her up when everyone else is attacking her.

She also stated that she didn't trust them to Giles earlier before this scene. After everything they had done for her, after all these years of sacrificing their normal lives to help her with hers, she said that she didn't trust them anymore.

Willow and Xander, no matter what tone they had, allowed there fears to stop them from telling the potentials, faith and wood that they were wrong,

But Xander and Willow didn't think they were wrong. They thought they were right.

they should have faith and trust in Buffy because she had not let them down in the past.

I think Buffy had her share of falling into traps in the past when her friends tried to warn her, When She Was Bad and Becoming Part 1 come to mind.



They didn't have to be part of the fight, they wanted to be there BUT you can't go to war with all generals and no soldiers, so they either follow the leader or don't fight.

Or they could sit down and listen to each other's ideas and suggestions just like they did in the past. The problem was, even when Faith took the lead, that they all listened to one voice, and even though Buffy and Faith are strong, it does not mean they're know-it-all kind of girls.

I remember when studying Henry The Fifth, how he was a great leader because he treated his soldiers with respect and listened to them. Things Buffy sadly hadn't been doing in S7, so it's no wonder the potentials didn't like/respect her much.

I understand why Buffy became this hard woman, but I don't expect the potentials to understand that. I don't even expect the Scoobies to, seeing how Buffy kept cutting herself from them all but Spike.

[Blondie Bear]

I recently read a fanfic that made some excellent points about the relationships between Buffy and her friends, especially in S6, that might have some bearing here.

Buffy was in constant pain from having been yanked out of heaven. She came back to discover that most of her money was gone and two more people had moved into her house. And as far as we know, neither Willow nor Tara were paying rent or utilities or anything like that. Then Willow went all dark and got Dawn's arm broken. Did she help pay the medical bills? Probably not.

So Buffy goes to work. She now has two jobs, burger slinger and Slayer, and she's working herself into sheer exhaustion in one of the most demeaning jobs possible (the show really didn't cover just how horrible fast food can be), and the only person who seems to care enough to try to help is Spike. And Tara, but that was after she moved out. Willow's not helping, and in some ways is making things worse. Dawn's too young to get a job, and is having trouble just staying in school. Xander's busy with Anya and his job. Giles flat out abandoned her, then when he came back, he started trying to order her around again. Is it any wonder that Buffy felt so alone and almost gave in to the dark side, then almost killed all her friends to be "normal", then didn't trust them at all by S7? I mean, really.

So while Buffy made some bad decisions, I think the scoobies deserve an equal, if not greater, share of the blame. I think that not a darn one of them tried to understand what Buffy was going through--what they were making her go through since they had pulled her out of heaven to begin with. It all came to a head in this episode, and since there were more of them than there were of her, of course they won. Quite frankly I'm amazed Buffy ever came back to help them.

[Edmund Blackadder]

His remark surely sounded sarcastic after he heard that Buffy didn't trust them anymore. I think that what hurt him the most. In the hospital he was understanding about Buffy's need to leave, and didn't seem to blame her, but then when it looked like she didn't care about his injury, didn't trust him, didn't try to listen to the group, he lashed out. I do think he tried to see her point, though, he looked quite interested at first.


If he even thought for a moment that she didn't care that he was hurt, he wasn't that close to her. He was one of her closest friends, but she had so much to do to SAVE THE WORLD. Don't you think, had she the time, she'd have been with him. If he doesn't know that, he doesn't know his best friend, Buffy.

As for the trust thing, do you have the exact wording because I don't remember it being anything like 'I can't trust these people, I think they will stab me in the back' which Ironically is what they did.

Actually I found it

'BUFFY
You sent away the guy who's been
watching my back. Again. I think --

GILES
We are all watching your back.

BUFFY
Yeah. Funny how I don't really feel
that lately.'

This was after a conversation regarding Spike. 'All' in this context is 'Giles' thats obvious. No one else comes into the fray(except maybe Robin). Giles then distorts this later in the argument to encompass the WHOLE gang. Giles manipulated the situation.

Giles was so annoyed that Buffy admitted she didn't need him, he attacked her.

Like she says in the whole thing

"I don't understand. Seven years I've
kept us safe by doing this, exactly
this, making the hard decisions.
Suddenly you're all acting like you
don't trust me. "

The we have Xander later

"XANDER
We follow you without question. Even
when you have no idea what you're
doing. Even when you get mad at us
for not working hard enough at a plan
which doesn't exist, because you
don't know what you're doing. We
keep following you, even then.
(beat)
And we keep paying the price.

BUFFY
(quiet)
Xander. I've paid the price, too,
sometimes."

Forgive me, but tallying up everything they've ALL lost and the fact they are still there fighting BECAUSE of Buffy's plans, why is he using this against her?
Unless you take into account his fear this time because it's hurt him.

[white avenger]

An issue that we have been ignoring throughout this discussion is that the original idea of taking the Potentials into battle wasn't Buffy's, it was Robin's. Granted Buffy was the one who made the final decision of taking them into a completely unknown situation instead of a more controlled environment (something like ambushing a group of Bringers in an alley where her options of retreat were more favorable, but after everything hit the fan, she never tried to blame the disaster on someone who admitted that he was "completely out of his depth in this," and he never stepped forward to accept it. In fact, he was quite outspoken in a discussion he had no business in.

Buffy's biggest mistake in this whole matter was allowing the discussion to begin in the first place. She should have taken her inner circle aside, revealed her plan, asked for advice in terms of strategy and logistics, and ultimately made the decision herself, expecting and demanding that she be supported by her friends. In a similar real life situation, President Lincoln had a meeting in which he discussed with his chief advisers his decision of replacing the commander of the Union Army with who he considered to be a more able leader. His advisers were unanimous in their opposition, after which the President stated, "The vote is one yea, twelve no. The yeas have it," and appointed Ulysses Grant as Commander.

Despite what Greenberg wanted the scene to be, this was most definitely NOT a college discussion, it was a military command decision. Commanders do not make suggestions or discuss their decisions. They give orders and expect them to be obeyed.

If anyone should have been asked to leave, it should have been Robin Wood. He did nothing but instigate and make trouble throughout the entire season. And just for the record, he is most certainly NOT prettier than Faith (Andrew possibly, but not Faith).

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

i think it was terribly wrong to have these whole big falling out in front of the other potentials. it was just... so gut wrenching. here buffy is, being forced out of her own home, and theres like 25+ people grilling her, ugh, its not to say that a part of me doesnt think she deserved to be removed from power for the time being (she was getting a little crazy there). But kicked out of her own house was harsh. and to be attacked by so many.... it was messed up.

[Keanoite]

i think it was terribly wrong to have these whole big falling out in front of the other potentials. it was just... so gut wrenching. here buffy is, being forced out of her own home, and theres like 25+ people grilling her, ugh, its not to say that a part of me doesnt think she deserved to be removed from power for the time being (she was getting a little crazy there). But kicked out of her own house was harsh. and to be attacked by so many.... it was messed up.

I don't think she was going crazy, I think she felt very much on her own. Everyone pressuring her to take charge and be the leader. She didn't have the support from her friends she usually had and I thik she wasn't sure how to lead. She needed back up and she just didn't have it.

I think Spike and Angel provided that for Buffy in the final episodes. I don't want to turn this tread into which vamp was better, we have enough of them going. But Spikes speech gave her the strenght to go after Caleb and I think Angel's presence did to. His simple comment to caleb 'You are so going to lose' showed a trust and belief in Buffy that her friends didn't. Also, him accepting her wishes that she wanted him to set up the second front showed he trusted her plan and believed she could get it done. He didn't question her about the plan itself, just about Spike. I think it was these things that gave her the strenght and belief that she could do it.

[GATEGOD]

I don't think she was going crazy, I think she felt very much on her own. Everyone pressuring her to take charge and be the leader. She didn't have the support from her friends she usually had and I thik she wasn't sure how to lead. She needed back up and she just didn't have it.

I think Spike and Angel provided that for Buffy in the final episodes. I don't want to turn this tread into which vamp was better, we have enough of them going. But Spikes speech gave her the strenght to go after Caleb and I think Angel's presence did to. His simple comment to caleb 'You are so going to lose' showed a trust and belief in Buffy that her friends didn't. Also, him accepting her wishes that she wanted him to set up the second front showed he trusted her plan and believed she could get it done. He didn't question her about the plan itself, just about Spike. I think it was these things that gave her the strenght and belief that she could do it.


Not to mention the fact that she was right... they needed to go back in.

[Blondie Bear]

As per Keonite's request, here's the info for that fanfic:

"Affinity" by Ginmar at All About Spike (http://www.allaboutspike.com/fic.html?id=18). The first half is amazingly good and insightful (if a little mechanically shaky), but the second half, after Spike comes back from L.A., kind of falls apart. Luckily, all the good stuff is in that first half, including the insights into Buffy's relationships with everyone.

[Keanoite]

Not to mention the fact that she was right... they needed to go back in.

Exactly, it was a bit like Becoming.

Angelus: Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No
hope...Take all that away... and what's left?

Buffy: Me.


Buffy had to trust herslef when no-one else around her did. Thats something she had struggled with for a long time.

[GATEGOD]

Exactly, it was a bit like Becoming.

Angelus: Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No
hope...Take all that away... and what's left?

Buffy: Me.


Buffy had to trust herslef when no-one else around her did. Thats something she had struggled with for a long time.

No one except the amazing Spike :coolman:

[Keanoite]

As per Keonite's request, here's the info for that fanfic:

"Affinity" by Ginmar at All About Spike (http://www.allaboutspike.com/fic.html?id=18). The first half is amazingly good and insightful (if a little mechanically shaky), but the second half, after Spike comes back from L.A., kind of falls apart. Luckily, all the good stuff is in that first half, including the insights into Buffy's relationships with everyone.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

Edit:

No one except the amazing Spike :coolman:

yes at the end of S7 I think she could felt she could finally trust him because he believed in her and because he wanted in her knickers!

Edit:

Ok AV I didn't want to make it into Spike v. Angel but you took it there so....Buffy asked Angel to stand back, he was more than willing to kick preacher ass but she said it was something she needed to do, so he obeyed her wishes and enjoyed the view!



BOD...exactly..Buffy had a point to prove to herself, personally I think she imagined caleb as the Scoobies but its just a pet theory!:)

Edit:

Ok true point but Spike WAS there and he wasn't exactly jumping out to save the day (which by the way he wasn't needed for)...Ok I have a question for ya...You are basically saying Spike is better than Angel cuz he would have jumped in and helped Buffy BUT if Angel had done that I have more than feeling that you would be saying that he was making choices for her again! So I have to ask...why do you have such a problem with Angel...Is it just an irrational hatred cuz you are an Uber-Spuffy or is it something else? You can answer this in a more suitable thread if you want, just was curious.

[white avenger]

Of course I'm an "uber Spuffy fan." I've never pretended not to be (In my humble opinion, anybody who isn't puts the ice cream on top of the chocolate syrup and doesn't have their nuts in the right place, either).

As for Spike joining in the fight with Caleb, he might have been about to do that very thing when Ol' Broody stepped in. Given his uncertainty about Buffy's true feelings for himself, he might have just decided not to make a bad situation worse by forcing a confrontation with Angel at that time (remember, he hadn't been chosen as Buffy's Champion at that time) as opposed to his statement upon appearing later in Angel's office, "You can't keep me away from her!"

[Keanoite]

Of course I'm an "uber Spuffy fan." I've never pretended not to be (In my humble opinion, anybody who isn't puts the ice cream on top of the chocolate syrup and doesn't have their nuts in the right place, either).

As for Spike joining in the fight with Caleb, he might have been about to do that very thing when Ol' Broody stepped in. Given his uncertainty about Buffy's true feelings for himself, he might have just decided not to make a bad situation worse by forcing a confrontation with Angel at that time (remember, he hadn't been chosen as Buffy's Champion at that time) as opposed to his statement upon appearing later in Angel's office, "You can't keep me away from her!"

I know you haven't thats why I said it!!!:lmao: as you have probably guessed I'm an uber Bangel fan!!:) thats why I was curious, cuz I can appreciate Spike for who he was without getting all psycho 'ship about it, was just wondering if you could do that with Angel?

and as far as the fight with caleb goes, neither Angel nor Sike had any part in it...he was Buffy's scalp.

[ILLYRIAN]

Angel was good for Buffy, Spike was good for Buffy. But only in the time that each of them had a relationship, as Buffy was growing as a person.

What did Buffy get, a scythe and what good was it ? it made killing the Turok-hans easier.
Who did Buffy want to help her in the battle against the first, she took Angels pressie then told him 'to go forth and multiply'. Or was it start a second front, yeh right !. She'd seen what she was up against, would she have wanted the best army possible ?, so why tell Angel to go away ?.

It was Spike that she wanted to help her.

Now it was the amulet that saved the day, Buffy didn't want Angel to be there, she wanted Spike.

Who was with her the longest ? They both had a relationship with her, but then the length of time isn't a contributing factor.

As for the names Bangel.....Spuffy.
With Bangel Buffy has only one letter where-as in Spuffy, Buffy plays a more major part and as I see Buffy to be the contributing factor here Spuffy would have to win.

For me I'd prefer her and Faith but as Buffy said,' we're just good friends really'.

[Keanoite]

Angel was good for Buffy, Spike was good for Buffy. But only in the time that each of them had a relationship, as Buffy was growing as a person.

What did Buffy get, a scythe and what good was it ? it made killing the Turok-hans easier.
Who did Buffy want to help her in the battle against the first, she took Angels pressie then told him 'to go forth and multiply'. Or was it start a second front, yeh right !. She'd seen what she was up against, would she have wanted the best army possible ?, so why tell Angel to go away ?.

It was Spike that she wanted to help her.

Now it was the amulet that saved the day, Buffy didn't want Angel to be there, she wanted Spike.

Who was with her the longest ? They both had a relationship with her, but then the length of time isn't a contributing factor.

As for the names Bangel.....Spuffy.
With Bangel Buffy has only one letter where-as in Spuffy, Buffy plays a more major part and as I see Buffy to be the contributing factor here Spuffy would have to win.

For me I'd prefer her and Faith but as Buffy said,' we're just good friends really'.

My own take on the amulet was that she knew whoever wore wouldn't make it and well, she saw Spike as more expendable!!! Ok come on White Avenger...Flame me!!!!:lmao:

[sosa lola]

Not to mention the fact that she was right... they needed to go back in.

She was right that there was something there, but the plan WAS crazy, what if The First and Caleb were preparing something waiting for Buffy and the others? Then all of them will be crawling away like they had done in Dirty Girls, they needed a better plan.

When Caleb and The First were busy laughing at Faith falling into the trap, Buffy was able to seize the moment and sneak in to take the scythe.

[Keanoite]

She was right that there was something there, but the plan WAS crazy, what if The First and Caleb were preparing something waiting for Buffy and the others? Then all of them will be crawling away like they had done in Dirty Girls, they needed a better plan.

When Caleb and The First were busy laughing at Faith falling into the trap, Buffy was able to seize the moment and sneak in to take the scythe.

Nearly all of Buffy's plans were crazy...saving the world rarely has a failsafe plan! Yeah it was crazy but not humous crazy!!

[TabulaRasa]

I think it was rediculous. I stood behind Buffy the whole time. She's a warrior, she had to be. She knew what had to be done. She made a mistake with taking the girls where she did without doing a little more work ahead of time. But she was tired, and she was running out of time. They all were. She ended up taking them to the right place. She just didn't know that Caleb was super strong. And cute.
I think they did wrong. I don't think she should have been kicked out. I think Dawn as a sister, after Buffy saved her life should have stood beside her decision. Dawn was upset because Buffy was busy with the potentials and not her. I think she was just mad.
I was very upset with everyone but Spike should have punched Giles, Willow, Wood, Anya, Xander and Dawn in the face and not Faith. She never told Buffy to leave. And I really don't think she wanted her to. Oh and I would not have minded Spike punching half the potentials including Kennedy and Rona. We lost a couple great potentials - turned slayers at the end ie, Amanda yet we keep Rona? Pure crap...anyways, it was stupid for Buffy to have to leave and I will forever be upset at the gang for that.

[Kana]

I'm pretty much going to back a Sosa on this as I've tried to look at it from all angles (well all the angles I like).

Like her, I'm pretty much going to post what I've posted on other forums on this, sorry if it steps on anyone else's point.

Now lets look at all the characters and their reactions.

Willow and Xander

We have to understand this isn't the first time Willow has questioned Buffy's actions but never has the consequence been so grave. Xander in the earlier episode was talking about trusting Buffy because she's earned it and I believe this is true.Buffy greatest strengths has been her instinct and compassion, yet she leads them to die in Dirty Girls. Xander is really struggling to see Buffy's point because she's just contradicted what he said with her actions and wants to go again. The reason Buffy has been trusted this far because she's always got them through safely so they never had any reason to doubt her but now she wants to lead them to a place where some of them were killed and poor Xander was badly hurt ( a miracle he wasn't killed actually) and it surprises me that people can't see their perspective.

Giles

As for Giles, he was doubting Buffy's judgment anyway. Although I don't agree with his duplicity in LMPTM, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily in the wrong. The whole Spike thing was a judgement call and while it was Buffy's call, it doesn't make it the right call. If Spike had been left alone and the trigger was still activated then I'd agree with Wood (his revenge was actually arguabley irrelevent to the utilitarian argument when you analyse it logically) that Spike could have been a threat. Giles mistrust of Buffy's judgement is not coming out of the blue and lest we forget Glory/Ben.

Dawn

Dawn is surprising I think. Also think about CWDP. FE said Buffy wont choose you. Also Buffy said that if she had to choose between the world and Dawn, she'd choose the world in LMPTM. While Dawn didn't hear this, Buffy's attitude in terms of what wanting to take the offensive after people have been hurt and killed wouldn't allay Dawn's fears that she may put herself and others in danger. She's worried but she's not angry with Buffy because she defends her to Rona. She and Faith are perhaps the most sympathetic to Buffy and have proven it's not jealousy but circumstances which are motivating their actions. I mention jealousy because both of them have been jealous of Buffy at some point.

In conclusion, this was an extreme circumstance and I think the First was the main reason behind it: Divide and conquer and for a while it worked. Look at all the factors, secret messages, Spike, questions of authority and leadership and of course Eve!! Of course these concepts don't arise in a vacuum but I still believe the main reason is the mistrust of Buffy's ability to get them through this alive rather than personal issues.

Like I said, the FE were actually alot more clever than I gave them credit for originally and I think they are the main reason for the 'mutiny'. They used Buffy's greatest skill, her intuition, against her which made people wonder if they can trust her judgement which previously they relied on without any price really being paid. It was actually a pretty decent plan because on the one hand Buffy may have decided that it wasn't a good idea to go back, FE win again but Buffy's instinct were right but people were scared to trust Buffy's decision to go in again when the last time they got nothing but death and injury. Also the Spike plan was pretty good because if they had killed Spike then they would have lost one of their strongest warriors but on the other hand if Buffy protects him, which she was willing to do then considering that she's made dubious decisions regarding Spike before personally, then there's a chance that could be clouding her judgement in terms of what to do with him. On the third hand (lol) if nothing was done then Wood could have been right and Spike could have been their undoing in this battle. That is why this is one of my favourite episodes (much to others chagrin) because when you analyse it you can actually see how it arose. Pretty clever imo.

[benboy606]

Basically, it pisses me off.

Buffy has saved the scoobies time and time again. They have been best friends for 7 years, and probably for the rest of their lives. They trust each other with their lives. And, this is how the scoobies pay her back? By kicking her out???? Of her house, no less! After this, I lose all respect for the core 4 because they are never really the core 4 anymore. 7.19-7.22 do not show any character love between them. And no make up, no less. I love the Scoobies together prior to this, always will. After this, I don't know.

[GATEGOD]

I know they have this great thing for the entire run and then leave you with that.. it's like having a character the entire time and killing them off...you're never going to forget that no matter what, in the end they are dead :cry:

[Blondie Bear]

And here's another reason to bitch at Dawn. . . . "It's my house, too." Yeah, uh-huh, and who's been PAYING for the house this whole time, little klepo girl?! Not you! Oh, that would be the big sister you're KICKING OUT! :bite-cha:

[Keanoite]

I know they have this great thing for the entire run and then leave you with that.. it's like having a character the entire time and killing them off...you're never going to forget that no matter what, in the end they are dead :cry:

They tried to pull it back with the scenes in the high school just before they go down to the hellmouth but it just didn't cut it for me.

[benboy606]

They tried to pull it back with the scenes in the high school just before they go down to the hellmouth but it just didn't cut it for me.

I entirely agree. That one scene does not make up for it, and that one scene wasn't all that great either. I think Joss tried, but failed. Just like he did with the whole Season 7 arc :(

[white avenger]

My own take on the amulet was that she knew whoever wore wouldn't make it and well, she saw Spike as more expendable!!! Ok come on White Avenger...Flame me!!!!:lmao:


I think you're confusing "expendable" with "formidable." If she knew that the amulet was, as the Brooding One said, "Powerful, highly volatile, meant to be worn by a champion..." or words to that effect, she would obviously want it to be carried by the warrior most likely to get the job done. She sent the second string team leader back to the bush leagues where he belonged.


(Maybe not a real blaze, but I'm feeling more philosophical that belligerent at the moment. Besides, it's more fun thinking that you might be lured into a false sense of security just before I incinerate you. In the meantime, wanna join me for some ice cream? Put the chocolate syrup wherever you want, it's all sweet.)

[Keanoite]

I think someone said it here before but I can't remember who so I'll say it again...there was about 3 seasons worth of mterial crammed into S7 and it just wasn't as good as it could have been,

Edit:

I think you're confusing "expendable" with "formidable." If she knew that the amulet was, as the Brooding One said, "Powerful, highly volatile, meant to be worn by a champion..." or words to that effect, she would obviously want it to be carried by the warrior most likely to get the job done. She sent the second string team leader back to the bush leagues where he belonged.


(Maybe not a real blaze, but I'm feeling more philosophical that belligerent at the moment. Besides, it's more fun thinking that you might be lured into a false sense of security just before I incinerate you. In the meantime, wanna join me for some ice cream? Put the chocolate syrup wherever you want, it's all sweet.)

You may be a Spuffy but I think we're gonna be be buds WA! And I'll have some cookie dough fudge mint-chip while were here!!

By the way I love this line...Besides, it's more fun thinking that you might be lured into a false sense of security just before I incinerate you

[white avenger]

Since this started out as a discussion of the "Great Scooby Mutiny," I would just like to say that that is one of the issues that I feel should be addressed if and when Joss & Co ever decide to fill in the gap between Season 7 and season 8. I'm all for forgive and forget, but, dammit, that little stunt could very well have lost the scythe, the battle, the apocalypse, and every man, woman, and child on the planet. Granted, that moment wasn't the time to drag all of that out, there was a war to fight. Afterwards, though, sometime after Buffy's cryptic smile faded away, there just BEGS to be a scene where our favorite Slayer lays into each and every one of her so called "best friends," and there most certainly should have been large portions of crow served all around, plus quite a lot of bowing and scraping by Giles and Wood for damn near killing the Champion who ultimately saved the day while the original vampire with a soul huddled safely in LA (Feelin' just a little bit warm yet, Miss K?)

[Keanoite]

Please I'm as cold as ice! But I agree, this has to be addressed. It could do with it's own arc as far as I am concerned. Season 7 touched on, and when I say this I mean the most fleeting of touches, alot of issues that were never discussed and in my opinion need to be.

1)Xander lying to her about Angel
2)Will going psycho and no one batting a lid!
3)Giles's abandoment and betrayal of Buffy
4)The fact that none of them really trust each other
5)Most importantly and probaly the most disturbing of all....Buffy boinking Spike! (especially for you WA;))

[benboy606]

Also, don't forget about Buffy and Dawn! What the hell happened? They were best buddies in Season 7 (minus End of Days/Chosen) and now they want to kill each other and no one trusts Buffy at all! :( Poor Buffy. They're the ones who kicked you out.

[white avenger]

[QUOTE=Keanoite;462833]Please I'm as cold as ice!

Miss K, no true Southern gentleman would EVER refer to a lady as "cold as ice."

As for Season 7, I would love to have seen much more time devoted to all of the items you list, plus several more, if for no other reason than that it would have taken several seasons more just to settle them all.

[Keanoite]

Ah a Georgian gentleman till the end!

they could have just left out the potentials and dealt with the real issues!..themselves!

[GATEGOD]

Joss said he planned for this to make Buffy not be 'Alone' anymore lol But there is a second slayer... we call her Faith >.<

[white avenger]

Ah a Georgian gentleman till the end!

they could have just left out the potentials and dealt with the real issues!..themselves!

Better yet, they could have had Kennedy fall in love with Andrew, who would then lure her into a world of crime as the "Dastardly Duo," who try to take over Sunnydale.

[Keanoite]

Better yet, they could have had Kennedy fall in love with Andrew, who would then lure her into a world of crime as the "Dastardly Duo," who try to take over Sunnydale.

But we all know Andrew is destined to be with Spike!

Edit:

Joss said he planned for this to make Buffy not be 'Alone' anymore lol But there is a second slayer... we call her Faith >.<

yeah but they weren't exactly best buds were they...I liked it. Buffy's whole thing for seven seasons was wanting to be a normal girl and finally she was.

[white avenger]

[QUOTE=Keanoite;462870]But we all know Andrew is destined to be with Spike!



Only if they can double date with Angel and Ethan Raynes...

(God, that's disgusting, even to me)


Seriously, though, Andrew's heart belongs to another: Timothy Dalton. We just can't break up true love.

[Keanoite]

Did you have to pick Ethan?? scary visuals! Ok who am I to stand in the way of true love, If Andrew wants TD, then he shall hav him:)! Spike should take a leaf out of my book and let Buffy and Angel be!

[white avenger]

Did you have to pick Ethan?? scary visuals! Ok who am I to stand in the way of true love, If Andrew wants TD, then he shall hav him:)! Spike should take a leaf out of my book and let Buffy and Angel be!


I agree totally. Where our paths separate is, "be what?"


How about this? Buffy, Faith, Spike, and Angel meet at the Hyperion. They all put their names in a pot, and everybody draws a name, regardless of who does what to who for 24 hours, after which they repeat the process until everybody has done everything with everybody else. Then you and I get together over a gallon of ice cream and write an epic fan fiction about the whole thing. How does "Musical Vampires" sound for a title? How about "Hyperion Hyjinx?"

[Keanoite]

Ok I kinda Love that idea!!!

[white avenger]

You bring the ice cream, I'll bring the spoons.

[Blondie Bear]

You guys are too funny. I'll be the first to read it. :)

[Keanoite]

Agreed! ya want syrup with it?

[white avenger]

Agreed! ya want syrup with it?

Would that be on top, or on the bottom?

[Keanoite]

That's between you and your God

[palabravampiress]

Wow. This thread took an unexpected turn. :-)

[faith oracle]

it was great the way they wrote this.but it infuriates me everytime i watch it.its ridiculas how all these little wannabes come into her house and trash the place eat all of andrew's hot pockets and then throw her out!!!
i was more schocked at willow or xander than any one else to be honest.

[codyw1]

Nope, sorry, it's Buffy who's ticking me off by this stage, not the Scoobies. Her superiority complex is way out of control, and her recklessness is putting everyone in peril. She's lost all judgement and, as Giles points out, doesn't even seem to trust her friends anymore (bar Spike, of course). I sympathise with her, with the pressure she's under, but she sure as hell is a long way from being in the right.

As someone said "You can lead, but can you FOLLOW?"

No, she can't. She'd rather walk out than not be the boss of everyone. She needed some serious cutting down to size, and I'm very glad she got it.

(The only shame is they decided to pull this with so few episodes left, so we never really get to see the ramifications after the next crisis has died down. Which kinda blows)

[GATEGOD]

She'd rather walk out because of open defiance and betrayal. She has been 'the leader' always, they basically new this. They were following Buffy. Yea they always had a say in things but in the end it was Buffy who had to make the decisions. And season 7 is different from the rest this was WAR. People were going to die and get hurt, Buffy was coming to, trying to come to terms with that and move on and hopefully kill the first's plans before everyone was killed even if some died in the process. IDK why i'm defending her though, placing Andrew and Anya together in the final battle was stupid :p

[codyw1]

LOL Yeah. Andrew and Anya, the great warriors!

;)

[GATEGOD]

LOL Yeah. Andrew and Anya, the great warriors!

;)

It's like she was hoping they'd die :p lol but really! she wasn't thinking at all :( she could have idk left one potential to help them ... uh duh!!