Why not doxymol?

[Keanoite]

I was just watching season 4 and this popped into my head. Why did they need a shaman to take Angel's soul? wouldn't a little doxymol have been a hell of a lot safer? They already knew it worked and that it would wear off and it didn't put Angel's soul at risk? The other option seems so dangerous and pointless considering they knew what the drug did to Angel.

[palabravampiress]

Excellent point! I had forgotten about that. Now that you mention it, though, the Shaman thing was a major case of the "duhs!"

Oh wait - "I've got a theory!" Didn't that happen back when Doyle was on the show? So if Cordy was possessed and Doyle was dead, the others wouldn't know about the drug. Aha!

"No, something isn't right there." Angel still would have known.

[nerd4hire]

It's been a while since I had an Angelthon, so let's see if memory will serve.

As I recall the reason Angelus could remember the Beast where Angel couldn't was because Angelus was outside this reality at the time the magic was done erasing all traces of the Beast from this plane of existence.

Doxymol, I'm thinking doesn't so much bring back the real Angelus, as create a faux Angelus from Angel's memories. The magic would still apply to faux Angelus.

[Keanoite]

Excellent point! I had forgotten about that. Now that you mention it, though, the Shaman thing was a major case of the "duhs!"

Oh wait - "I've got a theory!" Didn't that happen back when Doyle was on the show? So if Cordy was possessed and Doyle was dead, the others wouldn't know about the drug. Aha!

"No, something isn't right there." Angel still would have known.

No it was Wes and Cordy...they both knew about it.

Edit:

It's been a while since I had an Angelthon, so let's see if memory will serve.

As I recall the reason Angelus could remember the Beast where Angel couldn't was because Angelus was outside this reality at the time the magic was done erasing all traces of the Beast from this plane of existence.

Doxymol, I'm thinking doesn't so much bring back the real Angelus, as create a faux Angelus from Angel's memories. The magic would still apply to faux Angelus.

It's plausible but he seemed like the real Angelus when he came out to play.

[palabravampiress]

Well crap, I guess they all just took stupid pills for the day, then. lol.

[nerd4hire]

Here's Doximal explained in Eternity.

Wesley: “What did you give him?”
Rebecca: “Does it matter?”
Cordy: “Well, if he’s all homicidal, I’m thinking YEAH!”
Rebecca: “Doximall.”
Wesley: “Doximall?!”
Cordy: “Doxi-what?”
Wesley: “Powerful tranquilizer. It induces - bliss.”
Cordy: “Bliss? As in sheer contentment? Perfect happiness?!”
Wesley: “It’s synthetic – not true happiness.”
Rebecca: “This is really good stuff.”
Wesley: “He hasn’t really turned. It’s an illusion – not real.”

Here's the explanation of why Angelus remembers The Beast when Angel doesn't. It's from Calvary.

CORDELIA
Everything that's happened—it's part of a bigger plan with something even worse than the Beast sketching the blueprints.

WESLEY
That's what he's been trying to hide. There might be something in the text we—

CORDELIA
Text?

WESLEY
(holds up a book) Lilah found a passage in Rhinehardt's Compendium.

FRED
But we searched that already. There's nothing in there.

WESLEY
Because all references to the Beast have been erased in this dimension.

LILAH
I got my copy of Rhinehardt's... way out of town. (smirking to Fred) I'm surprised you didn't think of that.

GUNN
That's why Angel didn't remember the Beast.

WESLEY
His memory's been wiped clean, just like the book's.

CONNOR
Why does Angelus remember?

FRED
Because his mind wasn't here when the spell or whatever was cast, right?

[Kana]

I agree with the above. If Wes theoretically believed that it wasn't really Angelus then they wouldn't have gotten what they wanted. Effectively it wasn't Angelus but Angel who didn't feel the effects of his conscience.

The memory spell is dodgy though. Fred analysis has seriously odd implications for the curse and it contradicts what Angelus and Jasmine say (if were are working on the seperate entity theory). The seperate entity idea isn't the best idea for the curse anyway but if Angelus' mind isn't even there when Angel is what the hell is the point of the curse? Unless the gypsies made a mistake, the curse makes very little sense (who was the clan leader talking to in Becoming? Did he even know? According to Fred's theory Angelus wasn't even there so he's talking to an innocent Liam who is about the remember Angelus' kill but didn't do it screwed up?) In any respect Angelus clearly believes he's always 'deep in'.

I actually think that Jasmine removed then placed the memory back before and after the desoullment respectively, giving them the illusion of Angelus remembers but Angel doesn't.

[Keanoite]

People tend to see Angel an Angelus as too sides of the same coin but I think they are too differrent people. Angel has his own light and dark sides and so does Angelus.

[Kana]

Well I'd subscribe to either theory. Somehow they seem different but the same. If it is the same person I'd say that Angel suffers from disassociative personality disorder and has fragmented his persona.

[palabravampiress]

Well I'd subscribe to either theory. Somehow they seem different but the same. If it is the same person I'd say that Angel suffers from disassociative personality disorder and has fragmented his persona.

That's pretty much what I think of Angel. I mean, look at Spike. He acts different with a soul because of the conscience, yes, but not to the extent that he's a different person. He's just Spike with a soul. It can't be that the soul automatically makes you separate into two personalities. Instead, it must be specific to Angel. The most reasonable, non-mystical way to explain that is by assigning it the name of the most applicable mental disorder. Maybe we should get Angel a shrink!

[Keanoite]

That's pretty much what I think of Angel. I mean, look at Spike. He acts different with a soul because of the conscience, yes, but not to the extent that he's a different person. He's just Spike with a soul. It can't be that the soul automatically makes you separate into two personalities. Instead, it must be specific to Angel. The most reasonable, non-mystical way to explain that is by assigning it the name of the most applicable mental disorder. Maybe we should get Angel a shrink!

And when you take Liam into account, thats 3 seperate personalities!

[palabravampiress]

And when you take Liam into account, thats 3 seperate personalities!

I don't know about that one actually counting. I mean, Dru was very different as a human. She was a good Catholic girl who loved her family. William was a Victorian Mama's boy. Liam was a drunken lout. I don't know much about Darla before The Master sired her. It seems to me like being a very different person pre-siring and post-siring is kind of par for the course.

Or maybe they all have disassociative personality disorder!

[nerd4hire]

The idea that the characters in the story believe a doximaled Angel is a fake Angelus, where an unsouled Angel is the real Angelus isn't a theory. It's a script fact.

When you attempt to explain the discrepancies you enter the realm of the theoretical. So can you fanwank it in a way that the discrepancies make sense? Here's my attempt.

I'll postulate something I'll call the essence of the vampire. It is similar to the demon essence of the vampire slayer in that it is a physical force that changes the physical reality of the person it infects. It differs in that it exerts a moral influence. This moral governor of the vampire essence leaves in the presence of a soul. Wherever it goes, it retains it's own memories. Nevertheless it shares memories with the host upon infection, and operates in synch with the host's own human dark side. It thinks of that side as itself when sharing the host's mind. In this way the vampire essence is both separate from Angel's own human essence during his time souled, yet it thinks of itself as being there, because it claims ownership of the human dark side. We see that in Orpheus.

The vampire essence appears, to have an ability to influence the morality of the host. The power of this ability to influence the core psychology of the host appears to vary from vampire to vampire. In this way Angelus appears more aggressively evil than say Harmony.

Angel's moral conundrum is separating the participation of his own human dark side, and therefore ownership of the guilt attached from the actions of Angelus which exist in his memory.

[Kana]

What I will say is tha when I postulate theories it's not to counter the fact that the character's believe it's true but whether what the character believes is true. For example, Wesley may believe Angel and Angelus are two seperate conscious entities Holtz may not believe this and believes that perhaps and Angel is merely Angelus with a conscience and the name "Angel" is merely a way of describing the qualitative difference.

The main the problem we have is actually defining the soul in the Verse. Unfortunately Joss is vague with it and also how he defines elements of evil, without sying away from moral relativism. Perhaps Joss definitions are almost as eclectic as the real world's varying from the consciousness to the conscience. Perhaps the soul comprises of the 'spirit' and 'conscience'. My fear is that the real meaning is elusive and Joss wont define it for us, so yay to the fanwanking I guess.