Bargaining(6.1/2)opinion featured please read with caution!!!!!!!!!

[FaithFan2005]

Was anyone else bored with this episode?I also didn't like when the deer came over to Willow and she killed it.Is there nobody on here that was disgusted by that?Maybe that is a part of the craft but an innocent animal was killed just to bring back an annoying vampire slayer!!I turned Buffy off as soon as I saw that.

[Cordelia Chase*]

True but you also have to think of it as this:

Willow was very close to BUffy. She lost a dear friend that sacrificed herself for them. She thought that bringing her back would be the right thing to do.

Also because they didnt know what the energy did to her essense so they thought she was in a horrible dimension((HELL))

[Tranquillity]

it was black magic. Killing the pretty little deer was supposed to demonstrate that what willow was doing was pretty dangerous and not at all 'right'. that's why willow didn't tell the others about that bit, that's why that was the bit that 'buffy' taunted her about in afterlife (Did you pat its head as you slit its throat - or something along those lines). we were supposed to be disgusted and shocked.

[Cordelia Chase*]

I absolutely agree.....but it also shows the lengths she would go to, to help the ones she cares about

[marukisu]

Was anyone else bored with this episode?I also didn't like when the deer came over to Willow and she killed it.Is there nobody on here that was disgusted by that?Maybe that is a part of the craft but an innocent animal was killed just to bring back an annoying vampire slayer!!I turned Buffy off as soon as I saw that.

i take it from that "annoying vampire slayer" that you dont like Buffy that much.

[ILLYRIAN]

I take it that FaithFan2005 is anti Buffy and pro Faith.

Traquillity.
Blood can be used in other types of magic, so what happened wasn't necessarily black magic.
The biggest joke is that Willow is meant to be of the Wicca faith, a nature based religion.

And just for the record, I liked that episode.

[GATEGOD]

lol.

It just proves willow was crazy, and later in the season we get to see that even more.

[FaithFan2005]

i take it from that "annoying vampire slayer" that you dont like Buffy that much.

You are 100% correct.

[ILLYRIAN]

So FaithFan2005, what was your reaction.....when Buffy was asked if she was keeping some-one a secret from Willow and Xander, Buffy put her arm around Faith's shoulders saying, 'we're just good friends really'.

[DarklyDreamingDrusilla]

I really liked this episode. I love the begining scene when the scoobie gang has to fight by themselves. Spike is hilarious when he saves Giles by lighting the vamp on fire and just waiting with a smoke while Giles freaks out. Then "Cuppa tea, Cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea." and "that'll put marzipan in your pie plate Bingo" those lines are hilarious. And I like when Spike and Dawn ride on the motorcycle "Let's fly Pidgeon" Also I love how Tara does the little locator spell when willow was lost. "How long have you known your girlfriend is Tinker Bell?" I just love the whole episode because it shows how much the scoobie gang would do for each other. But I understand why you wouldn't like it FaithFan2005 because if you are not a Buffy fan then you would probably be okay if she did not come back and then Faith could come in and be the # 1 slayer.

[Wiccaness]

Personally,I liked this ep, actually its my favorite starter for any season. It showed how far they would go for there friend. Like Cordelia Chase* said She lost a dear friend that sacrificed herself for them, some one who was practically a sister to her, her family more then her own blood. Willow thought buffy was suffering in another demention, she wanted to help her best friend who had helped them out for along time now. now i dont agree with what she did hurting an animal like that, but i dont think she would have ever ever ever done it with out having to. And i agree with Yllyrian,

[Tranquillity]

I take it that FaithFan2005 is anti Buffy and pro Faith.

Traquillity.
Blood can be used in other types of magic, so what happened wasn't necessarily black magic.
The biggest joke is that Willow is meant to be of the Wicca faith, a nature based religion.

And just for the record, I liked that episode.

I like the episode too. i said it was black magic because that's what it says, or at least implies in the show. I know knothing about magic!

eg:
from Bargaining Part 1:

TARA: Hey. You're late.

WILLOW: Oh. (too casual) I, uh, had to get that thing.

XANDER: Giles isn't around, you can dump the cryptic.

WILLOW: (nervous) The last spell ingredient.

XANDER: Okay, right. What is vino de madre anyway?

WILLOW: Wine of the mother. Kind of ... black market stuff.

TARA: Black market, you-you didn't tell me that. You shouldn't have gone alone, it could have been dangerous.

WILLOW: Sorry. I didn't ... I was careful.

ANYA: Well, it must be something pretty intense. The black market's all baby teeth and spooky fluids.

WILLOW: All I know is we have to have it to finish the spell, so, it's good stuff in my book.

or

from Flooded:

GILES: Do you have any idea what you've done? The forces you've harnessed, the lines you've crossed?

[LadyLavinia]

I think that Willow's actions had a lot to do with selfishness on her part. I could say the same for the other Scoobies. They couldn't deal with losing Buffy and brought her back for their own selfish reason. The excuse that Buffy may have been in a hell dimension was exactly that . . . I believe. Nothing more than an excuse.

It showed how far they would go for there friend. Like Cordelia Chase* said She lost a dear friend that sacrificed herself for them, some one who was practically a sister to her, her family more then her own blood. Willow thought buffy was suffering in another demention, she wanted to help her best friend who had helped them out for along time now.

Willow and the others didn't even bother to find out whether Buffy was in a hell dimension or not. I think it was an excuse on their part, due to their inability to let go and allow Buffy to rest in peace.

[ILLYRIAN]

Tranquillity
I was just saying.
I've been around various forms of the craft a long time and what Willow did I saw as normal, not black magic.
One of the things I couldn't understand was why the scoobies thought that Buffy had gone to hell in the first place. I mean Buffy was chosen, presumably by the good guys to fight the evil so logically when she died she would have gone to heaven.

[Wiccaness]

To them the way they saw it, or at least the way i think Willow saw it is, she jumped into a portal, that a Hell god was going to use to go Home
. After finding Buffy dead, they think her spirit or soul could be stuck in that dimension


WILLOW: Her body, yeah. But her soul ... her essence ... I mean, that could be somewhere else. She could be trapped, in-in some sort of hell dimension like Angel was. Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let ... I'm not gonna leave her there. It's Buffy.


I dont think she's using that as an excuse just because they lost her and they wanted her back with out letting her rest. I think they cared about her,Maybe it was selfish, but Dawn did the same thing when her mom died, And they tried to stop her because they knew Joyce's death was natural, unlike Buffy's. They were trying to help, They might have done the wrong thing but their hearts were in the right place.

And also thats why i think they didnt try and figure out where she really was, they thought they all ready knew.

[FaithFan2005]

So FaithFan2005, what was your reaction.....when Buffy was asked if she was keeping some-one a secret from Willow and Xander, Buffy put her arm around Faith's shoulders saying, 'we're just good friends really'.

I didn't like that.I am sorry but I think that Faith should have gotten her own show.

[benboy606]

I thought they were good episodes. The second one, especially.

Willow killing the deer was part of Willow's arc to black magic and she wanted to save Buffy.

[Keanoite]

from heaven?????????????????

[benboy606]

from heaven?????????????????

Nobody knew that, of course. Everyone thought she was in hell or a hell dimension.

[marukisu]

You are 100% correct.

Why not? are you talking about the character or the show?

[TabulaRasa]

1. I loved the episode.
2. That kind of thing doesn't bother me, I am not as soft hearted about that as some people because in this case it was to bring back a human. A HUMAN life is worth more than an animal. And Deer are very likely to get diseases and die anyways...learned that from a pro, lol
3. Buffy is not only an important part of their lives but an important part of the world. She is there to protect and save people. Which she does every day! She does it and she doesn't give too much crap for it either. She gives up her life to do her duty and in the end dieing...I would have to say that the sacrifice Willow made is over 100x worth it. Even if you don't like Buffy herself.
4. Because you don't like Sarah Michelle Gellar, not Buffy...cause I know you personally...you take it out on the show. And I think that's sad. I am sorry to say hun. This show is pure brilliance. You love Angel but you don't like Buffy which is the more favorited show...only because you don't like Sarah. You are taking alot away from something wonderful. I feel sorry!
5. I love this episode...did I already say that? :)

[benboy606]

I actually like Angel better, and I love SMG! :p

I don't love it, but the darkness of the second part really sets the rest of the season up nicely, and some nice comedy in the first part, but not a whole lot more.

[FaithFan2005]

1. I loved the episode.
2. That kind of thing doesn't bother me, I am not as soft hearted about that as some people because in this case it was to bring back a human. A HUMAN life is worth more than an animal. And Deer are very likely to get diseases and die anyways...learned that from a pro, lol
3. Buffy is not only an important part of their lives but an important part of the world. She is there to protect and save people. Which she does every day! She does it and she doesn't give too much crap for it either. She gives up her life to do her duty and in the end dieing...I would have to say that the sacrifice Willow made is over 100x worth it. Even if you don't like Buffy herself.
4. Because you don't like Sarah Michelle Gellar, not Buffy...cause I know you personally...you take it out on the show. And I think that's sad. I am sorry to say hun. This show is pure brilliance. You love Angel but you don't like Buffy which is the more favorited show...only because you don't like Sarah. You are taking alot away from something wonderful. I feel sorry!
5. I love this episode...did I already say that? :)

I think that if Buffy were played by another actress,I would still dislike her.It is the character herself that I don't like.The fact that the actress is someone I don't like is a different point altogether.I also think it doesn't make you soft hearted if you don't like to see an animal hurt.If someone were to do that to my cat-who is still animal I would hurt them.

[benboy606]

I think that if Buffy were played by another actress,I would still dislike her.It is the character herself that I don't like.The fact that the actress is someone I don't like is a different point altogether.I also think it doesn't make you soft hearted if you don't like to see an animal hurt.If someone were to do that to my cat-who is still animal I would hurt them.

Yes, but like she said, Buffy saves the world on a daily basis.

It's not right to kill an animal, but for the sake of a hero that will save the world time and time again it's worth it.

[TabulaRasa]

I think that if Buffy were played by another actress,I would still dislike her.It is the character herself that I don't like.The fact that the actress is someone I don't like is a different point altogether.I also think it doesn't make you soft hearted if you don't like to see an animal hurt.If someone were to do that to my cat-who is still animal I would hurt them.

I think it does have to do with SMG because you love Faith. She killed a human, killed for fun. She turned bad. I realize she was hurting inside but she even tried to kill Xander, and she would have. You happen to like Eliza in real life, and thus you like her character. Buffy is a good person. She may have her off moments but she still knows and does what's right.
If anyone killed my pets I would want to hurt them also. This is a wild deer that Willow did not go out and seek to kill. when doing the magic it was brought to her, the sacrifice she had to make. Again, bringing back a human is worth taking a wild animals life, in any case. Well unless that person was a murderer or something, then it's debatable, lol.
If you can get past SMG you can really get to know these characters. The story, and probably find some of yourself in this show. I believe most of us, if not all of us on this board feels that way.

Just fast forward thru a part that bothers you or close your eyes. There are plenty of shows where something happens you don't want to see... a parent dieing, a child dieing etc. horrible in any case but sometimes it makes the story better. Like, killing the deer was shock value. It was like OMG, how horrible, but it was necessary. It had to be a believeable sacrifice.

Anyways....

[Wiccaness]

TabulaRasa's statement on not liking SMG there fore not liking Buffy just got me curious FaithFan2005, When you started watching the show, was it because Eliza was there, or because you liked the character of Faith, or some other reason?

[Happy57]

I know what you mean about Willow killing the Bambi it was so unexpected and crule for the Willow character,did you see the episode with the commentary of the makers Allison was crying and really upset afther doing this scene with the killing .

[FaithFan2005]

TabulaRasa's statement on not liking SMG there fore not liking Buffy just got me curious FaithFan2005, When you started watching the show, was it because Eliza was there, or because you liked the character of Faith, or some other reason?

I started watching the show because Tabularasa kept raving about it and I wanted to see what all the fuss was. Once again it is not about me not liking SMG that has me not liking Buffy it is the character herself.She is too selfcentered for my liking.Faith is not perfect by any means I know.Killing the deer is still wrong,no matter what the situation is.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I started watching the show because Tabularasa kept raving about it and I wanted to see what all the fuss was. Once again it is not about me not liking SMG that has me not liking Buffy it is the character herself.She is too selfcentered for my liking.
What, and Faith isn't? ???

[wiccianslayer]

i hated the scene where the deer got killed

alison actully was crying doing it even though tit was all fake cept for the deer did actully walk to alison they hd to keep doing the scene cause alison couldn't get through it

[Wiccaness]

I started watching the show because Tabularasa kept raving about it and I wanted to see what all the fuss was. Once again it is not about me not liking SMG that has me not liking Buffy it is the character herself.She is too selfcentered for my liking.Faith is not perfect by any means I know.Killing the deer is still wrong,no matter what the situation is.

But killing a human isnt, once by accident i get, but after......If your comparing then faith actions arent any better then Willows

[FaithFan2005]

What, and Faith isn't? ???

As I previously stated I know that Faith is not perfect.I am not compairing willow to Faith at all.

[Blondie Bear]

I don't see anything wrong with not liking a character because you don't like an actor. I refuse to see anything with Tom Cruise in it because he's a crazyperson. Of course, that might be different because he doesn't actually ACT. . . .

Honestly, I can't think of a character who I hated because of a personal dislike of the actor/actress portraying them, but then I tend to just not watch the show/movie if I don't like someone in it. But I can see where you're coming from, FaithFan.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

As I previously stated I know that Faith is not perfect.I am not compairing willow to Faith at all.

Yes, I know. You were referring to Buffy:

"Once again it is not about me not liking SMG that has me not liking Buffy it is the character herself.She is too selfcentered for my liking."

Therefore, I reiterate: "What, and Faith isn't?"

[Wiccaness]

As I previously stated I know that Faith is not perfect.I am not compairing willow to Faith at all.

No....but did you turn off the tv as soon as faith killed a human too?

[Keanoite]

I don't see anything wrong with not liking a character because you don't like an actor. I refuse to see anything with Tom Cruise in it because he's a crazyperson. Of course, that might be different because he doesn't actually ACT. . . .

Honestly, I can't think of a character who I hated because of a personal dislike of the actor/actress portraying them, but then I tend to just not watch the show/movie if I don't like someone in it. But I can see where you're coming from, FaithFan.

I agree! I cannot stand the actor who plays Connor, therefore I hate and dispise the character.

[FaithFan2005]

No....but did you turn off the tv as soon as faith killed a human too?

No I didn't.But when people kill humans they go to jail when they hurt animals they don't get punished.

[Wiccaness]

No I didn't.But when people kill humans they go to jail when they hurt animals they don't get punished.

Thats not always true. That NFL guy is doing time.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

The other part of that equation isn't always true, either; mostly, people who kill other people go to jail only if they get caught. In Faith's case, the only thing that led to her turning herself in was a complete breakdown. That rarely happens in real life, and wouldn't likely have happened in hers if not for Angel's intervention.

[LadyLavinia]

Nobody knew that, of course. Everyone thought she was in hell or a hell dimension.


And nobody bothered to find out . . . possibly through magic . . . where Buffy's spirit went. They simply assumed and did the resurrection spell. Maybe they had feared that Buffy had ended up in a hell dimension. But I also suspect that they were unwilling to accept her death and move on.

[TabulaRasa]

I think they wanted her back. It's possible they just wanted to believe she was in a hell dimension for selfish reasons. Try to make themselves believe. Either way, glad she came back...just sad she had to leave pretty heaven.

[ILLYRIAN]

Well, if Willow hadn't brought Buffy back, what would the show have been called ?

[FaithFan2005]

The other part of that equation isn't always true, either; mostly, people who kill other people go to jail only if they get caught. In Faith's case, the only thing that led to her turning herself in was a complete breakdown. That rarely happens in real life, and wouldn't likely have happened in hers if not for Angel's intervention.

I meant in general.Like those people who are killing the baby seals for sport-those people won't go to jail.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I meant in general.Like those people who are killing the baby seals for sport-those people won't go to jail.

That depends on whether or not the seals are legally protected - I don't know where that issue stands these days, but in cases of protected species, they most certainly could go to jail. Not too long ago, a man barely escaped going to jail for killing a bear that was eating him alive at the time.

Either way, I still fail to see what this has to do with the comparison of Faith and Buffy.

[Kemy]

What, and Faith isn't? ???

Lol I know, the most self serving, self centered, egocentric Human character in the franchise.

[TabulaRasa]

That depends on whether or not the seals are legally protected - I don't know where that issue stands these days, but in cases of protected species, they most certainly could go to jail. Not too long ago, a man barely escaped going to jail for killing a bear that was eating him alive at the time.

Either way, I still fail to see what this has to do with the comparison of Faith and Buffy.

She was saying that killing that deer was not worth bringing back Buffy the crappy slayer...SO NOT MY WORDS..not quite her words either...but what we are trying to figure out form her now is...if it was Faith who died...would she, Faithfan, want Faith to be brought back? This is the only way to do it...by killing the deer.
I still support my self...taking a wild animals life is worth bringing back a human to life. Especially one who saves the world on a daily basis.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

She was saying that killing that deer was not worth bringing back Buffy the crappy slayer...
Ah, gotcha.

SO NOT MY WORDS..not quite her words either...but what we are trying to figure out form her now is...if it was Faith who died...would she, Faithfan, want Faith to be brought back?
Well, that, plus: what exactly makes Buffy - who pretty much gave up everything (regardless of how much she may have complained,) including sacrificing her own life twice to save others - too selfcentered as compared to Faith, who:
1) stole anything she saw that she wanted;
2) murdered;
3) tried to frame Buffy for the assistant Mayor's killing;
4) betrayed not only Buffy and the gang, but humanity when she sided with Mayor Wilkins;
5) tried to steal Buffy's identity (literally);
6) etc, etc.

I just don't see any way to logically get from point A to point B.

[benboy606]

See, I'd like to justify some of Faith's actions.

Like, they weren't ALL her fault. Yes, she should be held responsible but her childhood and Buffy/Willow/the gang themselves turned her into that, as well.

[TabulaRasa]

See, I'd like to justify some of Faith's actions.

Like, they weren't ALL her fault. Yes, she should be held responsible but her childhood and Buffy/Willow/the gang themselves turned her into that, as well.

Whoa, come again? how is it Buffy, Will and the gangs fault now?
Did you forget they tried to help her? Even after what had happened, Faith told Giles Buffy killed and not her and Buffy even went to talk to her, to help her. Faith came close to spitting in her face...not literally but you know...so sorry, I don't see how this could be their doing. Faith even got Buffy into trouble stealing and Buffy didn't beat her up for it. It was her choice to follow along, and so...she got introuble. Faith had a bad life but so many people have bad lives and don't go all crazy and kill people.

Don't get me wrong, I love Faith, very much. But you can't blame anyone but her for her actions.

[FaithFan2005]

If it was Faith who had died I don't think anyone on the show would do a thing to bring her back,and if someone was going to bring her back and they had to hurt an innocent animal to do it I would not want them doing it.

[GATEGOD]

Sadly I'd allow Willow to kill 2 deer to bring back Anya ^_^ but I still think It was sick, disgusting, oh yea.. and evil.

[Keanoite]

The most disturbing deer death since Bambi's mother!!

[Wiccaness]

If it was Faith who had died I don't think anyone on the show would do a thing to bring her back,and if someone was going to bring her back and they had to hurt an innocent animal to do it I would not want them doing it.

If faith died the entire show would be different, because at that point the scoobies have nothing to do with faith. I agree, i dont think they would have brought her back, but look at their history with her, look at what they told her and she just shoved it back.

[benboy606]

Whoa, come again? how is it Buffy, Will and the gangs fault now?
Did you forget they tried to help her? Even after what had happened, Faith told Giles Buffy killed and not her and Buffy even went to talk to her, to help her. Faith came close to spitting in her face...not literally but you know...so sorry, I don't see how this could be their doing. Faith even got Buffy into trouble stealing and Buffy didn't beat her up for it. It was her choice to follow along, and so...she got introuble. Faith had a bad life but so many people have bad lives and don't go all crazy and kill people.

Don't get me wrong, I love Faith, very much. But you can't blame anyone but her for her actions.

No, I really believe Faith was responsible for her actions, of course! But it was maybe 5% for everyone else in her life. First off, Wesley totally destroyed her one chance at getting better. She was so close, and Wesley pulled her off and totally lost trust for everyone other than the Mayor.

Willow hated Faith and made it pretty damn clear. Also, Buffy didn't try and be around Faith at all, even in "Amends", she wants Faith to leave. They weren't supportive or helpful to her, at all. She was alone and, quite literally, had no one. I think the closest person she got to in Season 3 was Angel.

[TabulaRasa]

If it was Faith who had died I don't think anyone on the show would do a thing to bring her back,and if someone was going to bring her back and they had to hurt an innocent animal to do it I would not want them doing it.

I am wondering, do you eat chicken, turkey or beef at all? See, those are innocent animals and they are slautered. Not even to bring back a HUMAN life. Just to please our taste buds. I would love to know where the line is drawn in your book??? In some cultures a dog and cat is no different than a cow or chicken. They too are killed for food. I know it sounds terrible because we have domesticated these living creatures, but it doesn't make the other animals out there any less important or special just because we don't open our home to them.

There are people who have pigs for pets, and there are people who eat pigs. It's just the way it goes. You can't think it's ok on one end but think it's horrible and stupid and shouldn't happen on another. Cause what you are saying is, it's ok to kill an animal to eat, but not to save a human life.

If anyone in my family was dying or had died and I could give a pets life to save them, I would. I think many people would too.
So, just a few things to look at. It was definitely justified if it meant bringing back a human and it wasn't just to cook on the bar-b.

[FaithFan2005]

Paul Macartney said it best "If slaughter houses had glass windows everyone would be a vegetarian. I am currently working on becoming vegetarian-all I have to do is give up chicken and I am there.I think there is absoluly NO reason to slaughter an animal to bring back a human life if that person is dead then guess what it was their time,why would you wanna mess with something like that?

[GATEGOD]

Paul Macartney said it best "If slaughter houses had glass windows everyone would be a vegetarian. I am currently working on becoming vegetarian-all I have to do is give up chicken and I am there.I think there is absoluly NO reason to slaughter an animal to bring back a human life if that person is dead then guess what it was their time,why would you wanna mess with something like that?

If I was so addicted to big macs and cheeseburgers I'd be right there with you. I'm working on one addiction at a time. I've been Pepsi free for 2 months now ^_^ Water and Sprite is all I'll touch. For me, I drank like 6 or 7 cans a day... now I eat maybe 2 or three times a day and not all of it is meat so maybe giving up meat would be easier. I doubt I have the will power but I should work on that. But in the t.v. show, hell yea, If Faith had died, I would have wanted Willow to do what she did. These things happen so many days as it's been said to make sure we .. what have something that tastes good, why not use it to save someones life. But yea still it is sick and disgusting, but if you cared about someone so much, you'd do it. I think..idk ::huh1::

[TabulaRasa]

If my spouse or a parent or sibling, even my very Best friend had died, I would give one of my pets lives for theirs. Everyone is different.

[GATEGOD]

If my spouse or a parent or sibling, even my very Best friend had died, I would give one of my pets lives for theirs. Everyone is different.


eww not my dog!! A deer I've never met!! okay.. now where all just disgusting ourselves ^_^ is there something else about the episode we can talk about? :lmao:

[alexa]

I'm so not a fan of these 2 episodes. They had a few good moments, but overall dullsville.
Willow killing the deer (was it a deer?) was quite upsetting.. it was suppost to be. If you listen to the commentary they talk about how Ally was hysterical filming it, and needed to keep taking breaks, and in the end you don't hardly see anything. The point was to show that Willow was willing to slip into the dark magics a little bit too far... which helped to justify her going evil at the end of the season etc.

[TabulaRasa]

I'm so not a fan of these 2 episodes. They had a few good moments, but overall dullsville.
Willow killing the deer (was it a deer?) was quite upsetting.. it was suppost to be. If you listen to the commentary they talk about how Ally was hysterical filming it, and needed to keep taking breaks, and in the end you don't hardly see anything. The point was to show that Willow was willing to slip into the dark magics a little bit too far... which helped to justify her going evil at the end of the season etc.

I agree the episodes were dull. But I still liked them, I mean come on, my Buffy was back!!! :)

[TrueVengeance]

That was supposed to signify that what Willow was doing was darker, and started off the darkest season. Also, wouldn't you kill a dear to bring back your best friend (practically sister) who was thought to be in hell? I certainly would.

It was just part of the dark magic, and was just the beginning of what lies ahead for the season I think. And I like my seasons dark :D

[Rebecca]

I'm not too keen on these episodes.. but i guess they had to do something drastic to bring a slayer back! I agree with TrueVengeance it was showing that Willow was gonna go darker.

I didn't really like the majority of Season 6 though, most episodes were too dark but the comical episodes were good :D

[FaithFan2005]

I agree the episodes were dull. But I still liked them, I mean come on, my Buffy was back!!! :)


As I watch more episodes and see that Buffy didn't want to come back it is like a ha!moment for me.

[SMGfan17]

the deer wasn't really killed. so i didnt really have any problem with it. Yes, it was graphic and upsetting to some, but then they should not watch it.

[SMGfan17]

As I watch more episodes and see that Buffy didn't want to come back it is like a ha!moment for me.

Just out of curiosity why do you hate Buffy and SMG so much?

[bradlee]

I was actually wondering the same thing.


I loved these two eps.I thought it was a pretty epic opening for the season. The whole deer thing just showed the disparity that Willow felt. She would stop at nothing to bring Buffy back, not to mention, propel her arc of the season.

[InsaneMystic]

Even though I have no dislike towards either SMG or Buffy, I've got to go with FaithFan2005 on the deer thing. The scene is horrible to bear, no matter how often I see it; and the contrast with the soft lighting may be unsubtle, but it's damn effective. The killing was wrong, and deeply dark.

Consider this:
- Buffy was at peace with dying, willingly offered herself in the place of her sister. Wherever she may have gone after death: bringing her back demeans the sacrifice she's made.
- I don't see it as a logical assumption at all that she would be trapped in Hell; that would have made PERFECT sense if no body had ever been found, but that obviously wasn't the case, now was it? Thus I'd go for "she went wherever she deserved to go". And if that were Hell for Buffy, you'd have to assuming she was "evil". Would they bring back any other "evil" person just because they miss them?
- I don't buy into the "her life is worth mor than that of a wild deer" line either. We need a Slayer? Why? One dies, another is called. Fixed in the system already. And if you leave that out, you're stuck with "what's one life taken compared to hundreds saved", and when Faith argued this way, everyone seemed to consider that a sign that she was on a downward spiral. (And the food analogy is off. Taking another life for food is ok, because it's demonstrated by thousands of nonhuman species to be natural. Taking a life in self-defense will probably also raise little argument from most people. Taking a life for any other reason: hello Darkside.) And no, I would abso-f***ing-lutely NOT kill a stray cat even if that gave me a chance of seeing my dead Grandpa again, and I loved that man to bits.

So, what it boils down to is, this is the same unnatural and selfish thing Dawn went into trying to bring back Joyce, plus some slaughter of innocent life put on top. I wonder how they EVER got Tara to go with the plan? I can see Willow's line of thinking there (though I don't agree with her at all, she did more or less hand Dawn that book after Joyce died, and she was "it sucks, so I fix it with magic" as early as S4, so it's absolutely in character), and I can see her drawing Xander and Anya on her side, but Tara? Gaping plot hole for me, she's acting WAY out of character in this ep.

Nonetheless, I like the ep. It succesfully sets the mood for a depressingly dark season dealing with the scariest Big Bad of all - the Abyss Within.

[hidden]

well firstly it is a logical assumption to assume she went to a hell dimension because glory opened to portal to go back to her HELL DIMENSION so when buffy went in instead it is logical to assume she went to the place glory was going to

secondly the existence of heaven was never confirmed in either buffy or angle only the existence of heavenly dimensions
although it seems certain that hell exists(not just hell dimensions)as its referenced quite a bit

thirdly buffy's dying didn't result in a new slayer and anyway how long did buffy expect dawn and her friends to survive without her(im saying spike was right in fool for love)

so buffys friends had to bring buffy back to keep saving the world

now maybe willow had an idea that buffy may have been somewhere else but she wouldn't have been sure and even if she new it was a possibility there is no doubt she would have hidden it
xander and anya had no idea and tara would have just gone along with whatever willow said(i dont remember tara challenging any of willows decisions before)

and faith was right about the whole 1 against 100

by the way i like this episode and my favourite part is the deer part

[InsaneMystic]

thirdly buffy's dying didn't result in a new slayer
We "merely" have Joss's word for that. Nothing seen on screen disproves that another Slayer was called when Buffy died, and indeed, I still hold it to be the most logical assumption that another one did get called (but in the end, I will have to accept that Joss is the Buffyverse God and stands above the logic of mere mortals :lmao:)... Probably in some out-of-the-way location since she never came into the storyline. :wink:


tara would have just gone along with whatever willow said(i dont remember tara challenging any of willows decisions before)
I don't think so, seeing how much she was opposed to the idea of Dawn bringing Joyce back. No matter how much she loved Willow and tended to take the back seat to her in decisions - when it came to use and abuse of magic, she has always come across to me as much more principled than Willow, so I find it strange she went along with this plan.

[hidden]

well it was dawn who was for bringing joyce back and tara never found out willow helped so we dont know how she would have reacted

[marukisu]

I meant in general.Like those people who are killing the baby seals for sport-those people won't go to jail.

Its not like they constantly kill animals on BTVS so i dont understand whats the big deal. Plus usualy dark magic requires some animal sacrifice. Im not condoning killing animals for black magic but the magic is just that "black" something dark and evil.

[FluffyBuffy]

I think that Willow's actions had a lot to do with selfishness on her part. I could say the same for the other Scoobies. They couldn't deal with losing Buffy and brought her back for their own selfish reason. The excuse that Buffy may have been in a hell dimension was exactly that . . . I believe. Nothing more than an excuse.



Willow and the others didn't even bother to find out whether Buffy was in a hell dimension or not. I think it was an excuse on their part, due to their inability to let go and allow Buffy to rest in peace.

I never understood the whole selfish part....I mean like someone pointed out in this thread they brought Buffy back because obviously they missed her and Willow was her best friend. Heck, if it was me I would do the same thing.

I loved that episode it was so sad and tragic, when she slit the deer that was unexpected, I loved how they made the scene so sweet and then BAM onto the killing of the poor deer.

[sosa lola]

Actually I can see Tara siding with Willow more than Xander and Anya and I'm glad the writers showed us that Xander and Anya had doubts about Willow's plan while Tara was blinded by her love to Willow.