Do You Believe He Actually Loved Her?

[Buffy obsessed fan]

In the final episode, Chosen, when Angel comes back, they kiss, but he doesn't stay, and he never says 'I love you' and nothing happens, and after all with Cordy *&&* Nina, do you think he still loved Buffy? Because, I realise strong Bangel shippers would want to believe that, but there just aren't any sparks between them anymore, I mean sure, there was a kiss, but it coulda been for old times sake, especially since Buffy is in love with Spike at this point, but do you think either of them felt anything more than old times lust for each other? (By the way, I made up the expression 'old times lust' because I feel random :p)

[Keanoite]

In a word...yes. To quote Cordy 'they have the forbidden love of all time'. Angel and Buffy NEVER threw around I love you's all that much. To be honest I think there was major sparkage with the smoochies and even when they were fighting Caleb, the little banter between them and Buffy had this look about her that we hadn't seen in years. The difference was that they had both grown up alot and they were each other's whole world anymore. Buffy cared about Spike and Angel cared about Cordy. If they hadn't still felt something for each other Buffy would have never gave him that maybe, she could have just let him go and be done with it. But she didn't she gave him that shred of hope because they will always be 'IT' for one another even if they are never together again I don't think they will ever love another as they loved each other. In Angel S5 in the ep 'The girl in question' we see that Angel still loves her. In chosen, like always, the timing was wrong. It wasn't about the big Bangel love it was about Buffy growing up.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

there was even that little hint when he left that maybe, just maybe theyd end up together... not for a long time but like he said, he's not getting any older! so there is this part of her that loves him to think of him possibly being in her (far, far) future. and he wanted it, you know? he jealousy over spike and all... he loved her just as much but more maturely i think.

[Keanoite]

there was even that little hint when he left that maybe, just maybe theyd end up together... not for a long time but like he said, he's not getting any older! so there is this part of her that loves him to think of him possibly being in her (far, far) future. and he wanted it, you know? he jealousy over spike and all... he loved her just as much but more maturely i think.

I like that mature comment. The two of them had accepted their lives for what they were, they finally got it. But they clearly still loved each other.

[Kemy]

Watched Chosen last night, and as much as I never got into the Buffy/Angel ship, they always seemed right together, and in those few minutes alone you can tell they still love each other. You're right in that there isn't much said, its all unspoken at this point ;)

[Buffy obsessed fan]

Huh, that's pretty true, I never thought of it that way.

[Blondie Bear]

As anyone who has loved and lost can tell you, you NEVER forget your first love. Even if you're completely happy with the person you're with NOW, that first person who made you feel that way will always stick in your psyche, and a part of you will always wonder what could have been. Buffy and Angel were each other's first love, so of course there will always be that deep connection between them, even if it never comes to anything.

[white avenger]

As anyone who has loved and lost can tell you, you NEVER forget your first love. Even if you're completely happy with the person you're with NOW, that first person who made you feel that way will always stick in your psyche, and a part of you will always wonder what could have been. Buffy and Angel were each other's first love, so of course there will always be that deep connection between them, even if it never comes to anything.


Absolutely! I still have fantasies (well, fond memories) of my first great romance. It's the one you never forget and always compare your current love to.
Whether I do, did, or ever will have anything else positive to say about the Buffy/Angel relationship, I freely admit that it was certainly the most memorable for both of them.

[slayer07]

I understand were your coming from after Cordelia and Nina that he may have moved on. But if i remember corectly he did say in series 3 of Buffy that she was the first person he ever loved in 250 years so i think that is pretty hard to beat, even thoug he's meeting new people I think Buffy will always be in his heart. I think that the reason there is no longer a spark between them is because they've both finally started to except it can never work. However as proven in 'I will remember you' I think if Angel became human he would run straight to Buffy and she would be there.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

Hmm, that's all true, if I compared things more, I wouldn't ask questions that sound stupid =/ Anyway, I think he loves her, I just don't know if they'd ever make a good couple again...

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

it's not a stupid question at all! I mean so much went on between when Angel left and then the last episode so of course youd wonder what things would have changed. And i think at the present time, no, they wouldnt have made a good couple because of circumstance. But maybe again in the future... i always liked to think even if it were 10 years down the line (providing she survived that long) that maybe thered be a chance. I wouldn't call myself a "bangel" fan (i kind of liked all of her relationships for what they were) but something makes me want them to end up together. Of course, itd still be tragic because buffy would die eventually and angel would have to live on without her...

[Buffy obsessed fan]

I guess. And yeah, that would be really bad =/ That's why I kinda like the Angel/Darla relationship (But only a little bit)

[Keanoite]

It's not a stupid question at all, it has every right to be asked but Buffy and Angel to me are like Ross and Rachel...They HAVE to be together, ya know what I mean?

[Kana]

I'm one of the few who do believed he was fond of Nina, loved Cordy and still loves Buffy. Many think it has to be one or the other but in every season it does seem to come back to her in some way.

[Alucard]

I like to think they both truly loved each other... I also like to think that Angel fulfilled the shanshu prophecy, was made human and he and Buffy lived happily ever after... Until a jealous Spike killed them both, of course. :)

[Blondie Bear]

:buble_eye

I can't see Spike ever killing Buffy, no matter what.

[Tranquillity]

Does Angel still love Buffy?
I tend to agree with those who think that the First Love thing is pretty powerful and that they will always have a love for each other but not necessarily end up back together.

I read a sort of essay that was asking the same question as this thread: does Angel love Buffy? it analysed buffy's conversations with Angel and Spike in Chosen to try and answer the question. it is quite interesting. the link is here (http://www.teaattheford.net/viewpost.php?id=1970)

[Keanoite]

Does Angel still love Buffy?
I tend to agree with those who think that the First Love thing is pretty powerful and that they will always have a love for each other but not necessarily end up back together.

I read a sort of essay that was asking the same question as this thread: does Angel love Buffy? it analysed buffy's conversations with Angel and Spike in Chosen to try and answer the question. it is quite interesting. the link is here (http://www.teaattheford.net/viewpost.php?id=1970)

Thanks for the link. I read most of it but honestly I couldn't finish it. Thorough it was not. They took all the coversation in an extremely literal sense. Their explanation for what Buffy and Angel said to each other basically came off as a Spuffy fan wank. Twisted it so Spike came out on top. Really don't have any patience for that kinda thing, I understand backing a ship, I'm Bangel all the way, but I will never deny the feelings Buffy and Spike had for each other or try to turn what they ahd so it was really all about Angel. Also, as a Duck's fan I did not appreciate the snide remarks and derogatory comments. The women is insanely smart, the work she has done for B/A fan fcition can't even be measured. She is the not some pathetic loser she is repeatedly portrayed as in that essay.

Ok sorry for ranting at you but that really p***ed me off.

[Tranquillity]

sorry - didn't mean to offend. i just thought it was kind of interesing . and must admit, don't know what a 'ducks' is anyway.

[LadyLavinia]

I thought that Angel had remained in love with Buffy. In fact, it seemed to me in Season 5 of AtS that he loved both Buffy and Cordelia. Which doesn't seem unlikely. After all, it was later revealed around the same time, Buffy was in love with both Angel and Spike.

[Keanoite]

sorry - didn't mean to offend. i just thought it was kind of interesing . and must admit, don't know what a 'ducks' is anyway.

Oh you didn't offend me at all, the person who wrought the essay did. Ducks isn't a thing, she's person. Fantastic fan fic writer.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

Does no-one even think that he loved Cordy more than Buffy? I mean, not more than he loved her when they were together, that's closing on impossible, but at this time, he loved Cordy more. If that makes sense

[Keanoite]

Does no-one even think that he loved Cordy more than Buffy? I mean, not more than he loved her when they were together, that's closing on impossible, but at this time, he loved Cordy more. If that makes sense

He loved Cordy I just think he was in love with her at that stage, so much had gone down and they had never gotten a chance to be anything so no I don't think he loved her as much as he will always love Buffy, but in saying that Cordy was his best friend.

[palabravampiress]

I'm on the first love bandwagon.

I think Buffy and Angel loved each other with that intense, romantic, sort of insanely wrapped-up-in-one-another kind of way. According to the psych textbooks, that's an actual phase in every romantic relationship; it's the first phase. I think it's called the bonding phase. Anyone who's ever been in love knows what I'm talking about. I've only ever been in love twice, so I can't say much for first love compared to other loves, but based on my experience, I think that first love is definitely a powerful thing. It sticks with you. It never really entirely goes away, even when you move on. I, for instance, am totally in love with and happy with my husband. He's my second and greatest (and adult) love. We've known each other for a decade, been a couple for more than half that time, been married for 2 and a half years, and I still get butterflies when I'm around him. But I also get butterflies when I'm around my first love. I would never want to date him again. Our breakup was a good thing. But my point here is that even though I have moved on in a major way and would never ever pursue a romantic relationship with my first love, a little part of me will always love him.

That being the case, I think it is totally plausible that little pieces of Buffy and Angel will always love each other. That doesn't mean the relationship is now (at the end of season 7) or ever will be (although circumstances might change) able to work out. They broke up for some pretty compelling reasons and all of those issues are still there. So even though they might still love each other, that doesn't mean that someone new can't come and totally sweep Buffy or Angel of their respective feet. There's no law saying that your heart is only big enough for one great love per lifetime. I think it is totally possible for Buffy and Angel to love each other enough to be happy for one another if and when they find relationships that *do* work.

So yes, I do think Angel loved Buffy and Buffy loved Angel in the last episode of season 7. But no, I don't think that in any way diminishes the love Angel felt for Cordy or the love that Buffy felt for Riley or Spike or even the love that they both may feel for other people at some point in the future.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

He loved Cordy I just think he was in love with her at that stage, so much had gone down and they had never gotten a chance to be anything so no I don't think he loved her as much as he will always love Buffy, but in saying that Cordy was his best friend.

*Whimpers* You destroyed Cangel :p

[Keanoite]

*Whimpers* You destroyed Cangel :p

As a devoted Bangelite I would just like to say...My work here is done.:hihi:


Really though, Cordy and Angel are probably my favourite chracters just not together.


Buffy&Angel4ever!

[Buffy obsessed fan]

*Moaning* But Spuffy and Cangel rock. Bangel sucks *Scowls*

[Keanoite]

*Moaning* But Spuffy and Cangel rock. Bangel sucks *Scowls*

Cangel never even happened! and Spuffy well I will never be on board with that....and Bangel most definitely did not suck...well apart for a Graduation Day part II...point is...Bangel rules all.Fact!

[Blondie Bear]

I like Cordy & Angel, but I found Cangel kind of . . . weird. And forced. Except for the scene where they're laying in bed with Connor between them and discussing what to do with all the money Fred just made them, I didn't see any chemistry between the two of them, romantically, anyway. Buffy and Angel definitely had chemistry, as did Buffy and Spike. Hm . . . maybe SMG's just a better actress?

[Keanoite]

I like Cordy & Angel, but I found Cangel kind of . . . weird. And forced. Except for the scene where they're laying in bed with Connor between them and discussing what to do with all the money Fred just made them, I didn't see any chemistry between the two of them, romantically, anyway. Buffy and Angel definitely had chemistry, as did Buffy and Spike. Hm . . . maybe SMG's just a better actress?

I duno about being a better actress but I think Cordy and Angel had too much of a brother/sister chemistry for it to transcend into a romatic relationship...like you said it looked forced.

[white avenger]

[QUOTE=Keanoite;467795]Cangel never even happened! and Spuffy well I will never be on board with that....


Do you know what we used to call people who weren't on board back when I was in the Navy? Lost at sea.


(Hope you had a good Christmas, Miss K)

[Keanoite]

Spuffy isn't a ship I want to sail on:tongue:

I did think you WA...hope you ahd a good one too!

[palabravampiress]

I find it interesting that some people don't want to call Spuffy "love" even though both characters involved called it that at one time or another. I say "some people" because it's not just you, Keanoite! I'm not trying to single you out or anything just because you're the most recent anti-Spuffy poster.

Generally, I'm willing to call it love if the characters did and if no spell forced the issue. Buffy and Angel? Love. Angel and Cordy? Love. Xander and Anya? Love. You get the idea. I'm not sure whether Giles and Jenny were in love, but if they weren't, I think they were heading that way. I don't think Buffy and Parker were in love. Or Xander and Willow. Or Angel and Nina. So, basically, I sort of accept what Joss gave us. And Joss wrote Buffy and Angel as in love, so I buy it. It may not be my favorite type of love, but I do think it was real for both characters.

[GATEGOD]

I think there is something wrong with me... I'm a Spuffy and Bangel lover ^_^

[white avenger]

I think there is something wrong with me... I'm a Spuffy and Bangel lover ^_^


There's nothing wrong with that. High school Buffy and Angel made a cute couple. Grown up Buffy and Spike radiate enough heat to melt the polar ice cap. No problems there...

[Buffy obsessed fan]

Cangel never even happened! and Spuffy well I will never be on board with that....and Bangel most definitely did not suck...well apart for a Graduation Day part II...point is...Bangel rules all.Fact!

Cangel...never...? :O Have you seen Your Welcome, child?!? [Who happens to be older than me, but do I look like I care right now?!? :p]

[Keanoite]

Cangel...never...? :O Have you seen Your Welcome, child?!? [Who happens to be older than me, but do I look like I care right now?!? :p]

One kiss does not a ship make young girl:tongue:.....had to add that in;)

Edit:

I find it interesting that some people don't want to call Spuffy "love" even though both characters involved called it that at one time or another. I say "some people" because it's not just you, Keanoite! I'm not trying to single you out or anything just because you're the most recent anti-Spuffy poster.

Generally, I'm willing to call it love if the characters did and if no spell forced the issue. Buffy and Angel? Love. Angel and Cordy? Love. Xander and Anya? Love. You get the idea. I'm not sure whether Giles and Jenny were in love, but if they weren't, I think they were heading that way. I don't think Buffy and Parker were in love. Or Xander and Willow. Or Angel and Nina. So, basically, I sort of accept what Joss gave us. And Joss wrote Buffy and Angel as in love, so I buy it. It may not be my favorite type of love, but I do think it was real for both characters.

Lets take this outside Palabra!:tongue:...Honestly though, I don't deny that Buffy and Spike cared about each other at all. I just do not like the relationship. Not as lovers anyway. I also don't deny that Angel and Cordy cared about each other but I always thought their chemistry was that of siblings, so their 'relationship' or the shows attempt to create a ship for them was weird for .

[Buffy obsessed fan]

One kiss does not a ship make young girl:tongue:.....had to add that in;)


I wanted to say 'No, but it could make a boat' but that humour is pretty lame :p And, it's not one kiss, he's so broken up, when she's dead, it's such a romantic episode, you killed that for me :( :p

[white avenger]

The original question of this thread was "Does He Love Her?" not "Do They Love Each Other?" or "Who Loved Who The Most?" or any of a dozen other variations. Does Spike love Buffy? Absolutely. He proved it over and over, enduring torture, protecting her and her family from her enemies, regaining his soul, and simply being there for her when no one else was. None of Buffy's other lovers endured so much and received so little in return as Spike did. SPIKE LOVES BUFFY. Period. I don't see how anyone could doubt that, considering what he went through to prove it.

The companion question is, "Does She Love Him?" This is where the Spuffies, Bangles, the Fuffies, the Billows, and all of the other shippers tend to drift apart. Some will say that Buffy could never love someone who tried to rape her (of course, I might point out that those same people have no problem with her loving a vampire who tried to kill her AND destroy the world). The truth is, as much as I believe that she does, as much as I WANT her to, neither I nor any of the other fans can say for sure, because of the evilness of he who created the Buffyverse, the Almighty Joss has always been so ambiguous in the matter.

I will say this, and I will continue to say it, and believe it: If there is anyone in the Buffyverse who has earned Buffy's love, it is Spike. If she's too shallow to see what he's offering her, she doesn't deserve him. He should start stalking Faith.

[palabravampiress]

Wait a sec... I thought the question was does Angel love Buffy. Was I wrong? Because that's the question I was answering.

[Keanoite]

I wanted to say 'No, but it could make a boat' but that humour is pretty lame :p And, it's not one kiss, he's so broken up, when she's dead, it's such a romantic episode, you killed that for me :( :p

If you really believe in a ship don't let anyone kill it for you! Dedication is the way to go! People can say ANYTHING about Bangel and I will still back em no matter what. If you feel that way about Cangel *shudders* then nothing I say can change that.

Edit:

The original question of this thread was "Does He Love Her?" not "Do They Love Each Other?" or "Who Loved Who The Most?" or any of a dozen other variations. Does Spike love Buffy? Absolutely. He proved it over and over, enduring torture, protecting her and her family from her enemies, regaining his soul, and simply being there for her when no one else was. None of Buffy's other lovers endured so much and received so little in return as Spike did. SPIKE LOVES BUFFY. Period. I don't see how anyone could doubt that, considering what he went through to prove it.

The companion question is, "Does She Love Him?" This is where the Spuffies, Bangles, the Fuffies, the Billows, and all of the other shippers tend to drift apart. Some will say that Buffy could never love someone who tried to rape her (of course, I might point out that those same people have no problem with her loving a vampire who tried to kill her AND destroy the world). The truth is, as much as I believe that she does, as much as I WANT her to, neither I nor any of the other fans can say for sure, because of the evilness of he who created the Buffyverse, the Almighty Joss has always been so ambiguous in the matter.

I will say this, and I will continue to say it, and believe it: If there is anyone in the Buffyverse who has earned Buffy's love, it is Spike. If she's too shallow to see what he's offering her, she doesn't deserve him. He should start stalking Faith.

Stalking being the operative word.

[white avenger]

Regarding my last post, I should probably explain that my medication hasn't been coming along at the proper intervals lately, but the doctors promise to have me properly sedated before New Years Day. Until then...

[white avenger]

Let's try again now...

Did Angel love Buffy? Certainly. Why shouldn't he? She single handedly pulled him out of a filthy alley, changed his diet, and, most importantly, improved his wardrobe (he looked absolutely cute in that velvet coat!). He loved her for seven seasons, plus probably another season of his own show. When he came back to Sunnydale there at the end (once again with a better wardrobe, plus a few extra pounds), he STILL loved her. He just finally accepted the fact that their time was past, and the best thing he could do was to preserve what dignity he could, leave gracefully, and cling to the hope of getting cookies sometime in the future. But he loved her, right up to the end. Just like the old saying, "If you love something, let it go. If it makes a guest appearance on the last episode of your sho..." But He really, REALLY loved her.

(And I didn't mention Spuffy in there a single time.)

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm not going to be drawn into a fight about it BUT Spike definitely loved Buffy and Buffy must have loved Spike because of a throwaway line she says in early season 7(Lyri will know the episode HELP ME OUT).

Buffy and (Xander I think) are talking and Buffy makes the statement
'You think i'm STILL in love with him'
or
'I'm not STILL in love with him'.

It's something along those lines.
The point is she obviously acknowledges she DID love him at one point even if she didn't at the time - though I believe that by the end of season 7 there was mutual love and respect.

[Blondie Bear]

Again, not Lyri, but it was "First Date":

BUFFY [talking about Robin]
(grins) You know what? Yeah, I mean I think I like him. And he'd be good for
me.
WILLOW
(nods) Right. Help you move on.
BUFFY
(defensively) Why does everybody in this house think I'm still in love with
Spike?
WILLOW
No, I-I meant move on from this imposed super-self-reliance. Let somebody get
close.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

If you really believe in a ship don't let anyone kill it for you! Dedication is the way to go! People can say ANYTHING about Bangel and I will still back em no matter what. If you feel that way about Cangel *shudders* then nothing I say can change that.

I like Cangel, because I love Spuffy, and Angel needs to have someone :p

[Kemy]

He already has someone, Nina is just filling in until shes "baked" or whatever it was she said in "Chosen". :p

[Buffy obsessed fan]

And then someone can eat her :D Haha. That's a bad choice of words to say to a vampire ;) :p

[Kemy]

Actually if you go back and watch the episode she is about to say eat then back tracks, mind you I think she was just avoiding a euphemism rather than the cannibalism aspect. ;)

[Buffy obsessed fan]

I know xD I just love the fact she says that :p

[Edmund Blackadder]

Again, not Lyri, but it was "First Date":

BUFFY [talking about Robin]
(grins) You know what? Yeah, I mean I think I like him. And he'd be good for
me.
WILLOW
(nods) Right. Help you move on.
BUFFY
(defensively) Why does everybody in this house think I'm still in love with
Spike?
WILLOW
No, I-I meant move on from this imposed super-self-reliance. Let somebody get
close.



Thanks Blondie, as you can see she clearly states 'still in love' which means she acknowledges that she did love Spike at one point so she is capable of loving him.
He loved her, thats evident and anyone who disagrees is blind so why do we constantly have arguments over their love when we've been told exactly that they have loved each other and its not a huge leap to believe that she retained that love when HE sacrificed HIMSELF for her and the world at the end of season 7.

[Keanoite]

I like Cangel, because I love Spuffy, and Angel needs to have someone :p

He does....Buffy! Always!:tongue:

[Tomp]

Yeah of course they do.

[Keanoite]

VisionGuy agrees: Angel is not going to wait all eternity for some stale cookies. :p

In Angel's own words...he ain't gettin any older. One thing Angel has is time. He'll wait, he will soooooo wait. Grasping at straws it seems VG:no:

[palabravampiress]

In Angel's own words...he ain't gettin any older. One thing Angel has is time. He'll wait, he will soooooo wait. Grasping at straws it seems VG:no:

I don't know if I think he'll wait. I mean, what was Cordy? What was Nina? Those ended badly and quickly, but they did show a tendency to try to move on. What if he falls in love with someone present and attainable while he's waiting for Buffy to finish baking? Will he just toss aside the new love for Buffy as soon as her oven timer goes "ding?"

[palabravampiress]

Wait. How did you both agree with me while continuing to disagree with one another, especially when I only asked a question?! lol. This is confusing.

So, let me see if I get this straight. Keanoite took the question literally and thinks he'll toss new girl overboard, right? And VG took it in its more ironic sense and thinks he'll find another twu wuv because no way would he behave so dishonorably to new girl just cuz Buffy says it's time? Am I right?

Me, I honestly don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I can see Angel jumping at the chance to get Buffy back. After all, he did seem amenable to the possibility of a reconciliation at the end of that cookie dough scene. He loves Buffy. Being with her is his dream. Part of him will always want to drop everything and just be with her. Of course, that part always seems to lose out in the end, doesn't it?

On the other hand, this is Angel we're talking about. Not only has he had chances to be with Buffy and walked out on every one, but he's very big on the loyalty thing. He nearly died for Darla, declared his love for Cordy, and actively pursued a relationship with Nina. He's not exactly waiting now, so what makes us think he'll keep waiting? Given what we know of Angel's character and how in love he is with the idea of love, I find it hard to imagine that he won't find another lady love before Buffy realizes that we're all cookies and that none of us are ever really done baking, so we may as well melt into one another and get all gooey with each other, anyway. And I find it hard to imagine that he'd just leave this new girl, whoever she is, in the lurch. She'd have to be pretty special for him to be in love with her. It would be wrong to use the new girl that way. And we all know how Angel hates to be wrong.

Hmm...

Ok. I vote for option #2. I don't know whether I want him to keep new girl or dump her for Buffy, but I really wanna see that triangle. I wanna see Angel struggle with that decision and finally choose once and for all: Buffy or not Buffy.

Oooh -- and then I want to relive one of my favorite GH memories. I want Angel to choose new girl out of his hyperdeveloped sense of duty. So Buffy goes off with Spike. Then, while Buffy and Spike clink champagne (or blood) glasses, one of Angel's enemies kills the new girl in an attack meant for Angel. It's perfect!

[Keanoite]

Wait. How did you both agree with me while continuing to disagree with one another, especially when I only asked a question?! lol. This is confusing.

So, let me see if I get this straight. Keanoite took the question literally and thinks he'll toss new girl overboard, right? And VG took it in its more ironic sense and thinks he'll find another twu wuv because no way would he behave so dishonorably to new girl just cuz Buffy says it's time? Am I right?

Me, I honestly don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I can see Angel jumping at the chance to get Buffy back. After all, he did seem amenable to the possibility of a reconciliation at the end of that cookie dough scene. He loves Buffy. Being with her is his dream. Part of him will always want to drop everything and just be with her. Of course, that part always seems to lose out in the end, doesn't it?

On the other hand, this is Angel we're talking about. Not only has he had chances to be with Buffy and walked out on every one, but he's very big on the loyalty thing. He nearly died for Darla, declared his love for Cordy, and actively pursued a relationship with Nina. He's not exactly waiting now, so what makes us think he'll keep waiting? Given what we know of Angel's character and how in love he is with the idea of love, I find it hard to imagine that he won't find another lady love before Buffy realizes that we're all cookies and that none of us are ever really done baking, so we may as well melt into one another and get all gooey with each other, anyway. And I find it hard to imagine that he'd just leave this new girl, whoever she is, in the lurch. She'd have to be pretty special for him to be in love with her. It would be wrong to use the new girl that way. And we all know how Angel hates to be wrong.

Hmm...

Ok. I vote for option #2. I don't know whether I want him to keep new girl or dump her for Buffy, but I really wanna see that triangle. I wanna see Angel struggle with that decision and finally choose once and for all: Buffy or not Buffy.

Oooh -- and then I want to relive one of my favorite GH memories. I want Angel to choose new girl out of his hyperdeveloped sense of duty. So Buffy goes off with Spike. Then, while Buffy and Spike clink champagne (or blood) glasses, one of Angel's enemies kills the new girl in an attack meant for Angel. It's perfect!

Flashes of Dylan's wife being killed in 90210!! This is a topic that you and I will NEVER agree on but glutton for punishment:D

Like Buffy has never loved another as she loves Angel I don't believe Angel will ever or really can ever love anyone like he loves Buffy, no matter who she is. So if he does end up with some wench...I mean girl:D...I think she will be of the Nina variety. Fond of her but really thats it. Your right about him being loyal, and who is he going to be more loyal to than the love of his life?

I honest to God believe that if either of the two of them had the chance presented to them to be with each other they would take it...Carpe Diem...life is short. They both understand that on whole new levels now.

[palabravampiress]

Flashes of Dylan's wife being killed in 90210!! This is a topic that you and I will NEVER agree on but glutton for punishment:D

Like Buffy has never loved another as she loves Angel I don't believe Angel will ever or really can ever love anyone like he loves Buffy, no matter who she is. So if he does end up with some wench...I mean girl:D...I think she will be of the Nina variety. Fond of her but really thats it. Your right about him being loyal, and who is he going to be more loyal to than the love of his life?

I honest to God believe that if either of the two of them had the chance presented to them to be with each other they would take it...Carpe Diem...life is short. They both understand that on whole new levels now.

Yeah. It's a soapy scenario that I painted. :-)

Even at the expense of someone else? I mean, I'm counting Nina as sort of a Parker or a Scott. Buffy had a couple of flirtations that didn't really go anywhere. But Angel never really "won" over Riley or Spike. She'd meet with Angel, things would get all awkward and weird with the crazy tension that is their relationship, and then she'd skip back to her main squeeze. I don't think the history that is between them will ever really go away, but I kind of think Angel would feel the need to stick to the new girl (at least at first). I'm counting her as sort of a Darla or a Cordy. If either of those relationships had been allowed to progress, I think he would have chosen Darla or Cordy over Buffy in the end. His commitment to them and his sense of responsibility for them was very strong -- much stronger than it was to/for Buffy as their lives continued to grow apart.

I guess if it was a fling, I'd see him choosing Buffy. But if it was something more -- and especially if she was vulnerable in some way (Darla was a dying human and then pregnant and Cordy was human and afflicted with the visions) -- I think he'd pick the new lady. I think he loved Buffy very much. I think a little part of him will always love her. But I don't know if I think he'd ever let himself be happy with Buffy. He's afraid of that -- and with good reason. I think that, at this point, his instinct sort of screams "Danger! Danger!" with the flashing lights and the wavy arms. So I think he'd find a way to rationalize staying with the other chick out of love and duty, I also think a part of that would be due to his fear of being happy with Buffy.

Of course, this scenario assumes that Buffy's "I'm cookies" moment doesn't come when she is in a relationship with someone else. Personally, I've always kind of wanted her to end up with Xander.

[Keanoite]

To be honest I don't really see him falling in love anytime soon, if ever. He doesn't really welcome people into his life, Cordy pretty much barged her way in and literally set up shop. Especially where the comics are going fat grand children don't seem to be in the offing. Any time he has opened his heart to any girl he has either ended up a vamp or in hell, figuratively and literally. And well, I just don't see him saying no to Buffy if a genuine oppertunity persented itself for them to be together.

[white avenger]

Flashes of Dylan's wife being killed in 90210!! This is a topic that you and I will NEVER agree on but glutton for punishment:D

Like Buffy has never loved another as she loves Angel I don't believe Angel will ever or really can ever love anyone like he loves Buffy, no matter who she is. So if he does end up with some wench...I mean girl:D...I think she will be of the Nina variety. Fond of her but really thats it. Your right about him being loyal, and who is he going to be more loyal to than the love of his life?

I honest to God believe that if either of the two of them had the chance presented to them to be with each other they would take it...Carpe Diem...life is short. They both understand that on whole new levels now.



All of the above would be wonderful except for a truth so consistent that it might just as well be a law of nature: No matter how intense, how mind, heart, and spirit consuming a first love may be, (and I have said before that I have no doubt that Angel and Buffy were in love and that it was a first love for each of them) first loves almost never lead to lifetime partnerships. Cling to that "almost" if you want to, but the truth remains that Angel has a better chance of getting a sun tan than he does of spending his life with Buffy. Cling to the Shanshue prophesy too, it's your only hope.

Go and find a dozen typical happily married couples and ask them if their partners were their first loves. Ask fifty, or a hundred couples, and the answer will be the same: First loves are wonderful, but their major purpose is to prepare us for our REAL loves, the ones who, ideally, are the ones we are to spend our lives with. I still have feelings for my first love, and any honest person will say the same thing, but as much as I loved her, I wouldn't trade the love that I have now for a dozen of her. That's what REAL love is.

Does Buffy love Angel? I have no doubt of it. Does Buffy love Spike? I have no doubt of that either. Will she spend her life with either one of them? That remains for th ALL Powerful Joss to decide, but I believe that if the answer is yes, then the one she is ultimately with will almost certainly be Spike, not because their love is any more real than that shared by Buffy and Angel in earlier times, but simply because their love is the love shared by two adults.

[Keanoite]

All of the above would be wonderful except for a truth so consistent that it might just as well be a law of nature: No matter how intense, how mind, heart, and spirit consuming a first love may be, (and I have said before that I have no doubt that Angel and Buffy were in love and that it was a first love for each of them) first loves almost never lead to lifetime partnerships. Cling to that "almost" if you want to, but the truth remains that Angel has a better chance of getting a sun tan than he does of spending his life with Buffy. Cling to the Shanshue prophesy too, it's your only hope.

Go and find a dozen typical happily married couples and ask them if their partners were their first loves. Ask fifty, or a hundred couples, and the answer will be the same: First loves are wonderful, but their major purpose is to prepare us for our REAL loves, the ones who, ideally, are the ones we are to spend our lives with. I still have feelings for my first love, and any honest person will say the same thing, but as much as I loved her, I wouldn't trade the love that I have now for a dozen of her. That's what REAL love is.

Does Buffy love Angel? I have no doubt of it. Does Buffy love Spike? I have no doubt of that either. Will she spend her life with either one of them? That remains for th ALL Powerful Joss to decide, but I believe that if the answer is yes, then the one she is ultimately with will almost certainly be Spike, not because their love is any more real than that shared by Buffy and Angel in earlier times, but simply because their love is the love shared by two adults.

If you give me a Buffy and Angel get another chance as adults and it doesn't work out then ok maybe I could go along with it. But that hasn't happened so there is NO WAY that I will EVER go along with what you said up there.

Belittleing what they had just because it was the first time either had been in love? I just don't understand it. What they had was REAL. Probably the most REAL feelings either has ever felt for another. I know first love doesn't always last but quite frankly alot of times neither does second and third. The order in which you fall in love has no real reflection on the feeling it creates.
I have a question for ya, do you think what Spike and Dru had was REAL love?

[white avenger]

If you give me a Buffy and Angel get another chance as adults and it doesn't work out then ok maybe I could go along with it. But that hasn't happened so there is NO WAY that I will EVER go along with what you said up there.

Belittleing what they had just because it was the first time either had been in love? I just don't understand it. What they had was REAL. Probably the most REAL feelings either has ever felt for another. I know first love doesn't always last but quite frankly alot of times neither does second and third. The order in which you fall in love has no real reflection on the feeling it creates.
I have a question for ya, do you think what Spike and Dru had was REAL love?


It was not my intention to "belittle" anything that Buffy and Angel had. I was merely pointing out that first loves are very rarely only loves or even greatest loves, and, based on what they have at the moment, what Buffy shares with Angel has less of a chance to develop into a permanent relationship than what she has with Spike. Ultimately, we both know that, given Joss' sadistic nature and the joy he takes in hearing his fans scream "NOOOOO!!" in anguished tones, Buffy will most likely end up marrying a resurrected Jonathan.

As for William and Drusilla, I believe that they shared that most tragic of relationships: He loved her, but she never had any concept of what love really is.

[Keanoite]

Buffy will most likely end up marrying a resurrected Jonathan.

What is she Saint Buffy!?! He's like three feet tall!!....couldn't resist.


Sorry for snapping up there...alot of crazyness going on and well you messed with my Bangel:no:

My sincere apologies:D

[white avenger]

You didn't snap, Miss K, you just answered my post. Good answer,too. No apologies necessary.

If it'll make you feel any better, you can mess with my Spuffy any time the mood strikes you. Just be gentle, I've had some bad experiences.

[Jules]

I started reading the posts but then they got so long that I only skim read them, so apologies if this point has already been made.

Buffy and Angel had an all consuming love in seasons 1-3. Buffy said it her self in the episode ''Rad Eggs'' that when she looked into the future all she saw was him, all she wanted was him and he dittoed that feeling. Fast forward to 4 years later. Buffy died in Season 5, and Angel learned that her death wouldn't destroy him. He survived and it was ok for him to continuing fighting without her. Buffy has had to go through many things on her own, she says to Angel in ''I Will Remember You'' that's she's a big girl and can look after herself. All true.

So with their separation their loved changed, it matured but I don't think it became anything less. It was just more adult than teenage love.

[Keanoite]

I started reading the posts but then they got so long that I only skim read them, so apologies if this point has already been made.

Buffy and Angel had an all consuming love in seasons 1-3. Buffy said it her self in the episode ''Rad Eggs'' that when she looked into the future all she saw was him, all she wanted was him and he dittoed that feeling. Fast forward to 4 years later. Buffy died in Season 5, and Angel learned that her death wouldn't destroy him. He survived and it was ok for him to continuing fighting without her. Buffy has had to go through many things on her own, she says to Angel in ''I Will Remember You'' that's she's a big girl and can look after herself. All true.

So with their separation their loved changed, it matured but I don't think it became anything less. It was just more adult than teenage love.


Which they displayed in the end of season 7...their feelings for each other were still clearly there but they had both grown up and weren't each other's main focus anymore. Doesn't mean the love wasn't still there

[palabravampiress]

But do you guys think the Buffy/Angel relationship would have worked post season 7?

In theory, there was nothing stopping a reunion in season 5 of Angel (aside from SMG wanting to leave Buffy). No longer burdened with the weight of the world, Buffy could go be a normal girl for awhile. She could go back to school. She could get a job. She could slay or train slayers... if she so chose (I believe she would have chosen to do so). Not even Spike would have been in her way, as she thought he was dead. After about a year of this "baking," she could realize that she was a capable adult after all and seek Angel out for his finale.

At that time, Angel was busy taking on the Black Thorn. Buffy would have been thrown for a loop when she found that Spike was alive, so let's pretend he wasn't. Would Buffy have approved of and/or participated in the plan to take down the Black Thorn? How would Buffy have felt about Connor and the memory mix up? Would she understand the fight-the-system-from-within approach behind taking over W&H? Basically, what I'm asking is would Buffy fit into Angel's life as we see it near the end of season 5? She is, in theory, relatively free of her burdens. The Hellmouth is closed. There are slayers everywhere. Like the rest of us, she can pick and choose where to apply her talents. Angel, however is bound by his contract with W&H as well as by his duty to the Powers and the curse on his soul. She'd have to be the one to go to him, then. Given all of these obligations, I don't see Angel's predicament changing very drastically within Buffy's lifetime. So I'm asking: how would Buffy have fit into Angel's life as it stands near the end of season 5?

I don't have the answer, but I think that's the key to determining whether or not their feelings can be taken into the land of the functioning relationship.

[angeldork]

In conjunction to what White Avenger had posted that we'd see Buffy spend the rest of her life with Spike than with Angel because her love with Spike is an adult one. The way I see it, the only reason why Buffy started having this whole friends with benefits thing was Spike was so she could try and fill a void/emptiness that she was feeling at the time. Then let's not forget about the time that Spike tried to rape her. I've seen their dynamic since then and I really don't think that she's in love with him. And I'm just saying this because I'm a big Bangel fan and I think they will end up together in the end. But Spike in a way became a rock for her, although that's very hard for me to believe. She does love him but she would never choose Spike over Angel any day of the week. Let's face it anyone else is just gonna be second best to Angel. Nobody ever chooses their second best unless the first is dead.

[Junostar]

I don't know, but what I do know is, that it was ludicrous how Buffy started involving herself with Spike and Angel getting good with Cordelia. That there totally turned me away from the shows.

[VisionGuy]

I don't know, but what I do know is, that it was ludicrous how Buffy started involving herself with Spike and Angel getting good with Cordelia. That there totally turned me away from the shows.

I think that having them move on and experience love with other people was a great idea. It made both Buffy and Angel grow as characters.

[Blondie Bear]

I think that having them move on and experience love with other people was a great idea. It made both Buffy and Angel grow as characters.

The thing is that they didn't really move on. Angel was having the cookie-dough talk with Buffy while Cordy was in a coma. Buffy went back to Spike after Angel left. They were both hanging on to the relationship even though they knew they couldn't have it right then. It made it feel like Cordy and Spike were just placeholders. Which isn't healthy or fair to Cordy and Spike.

[palabravampiress]

I have never been a fan of the cookie dough scene. It seemed really out of place. I mean, first of all, Cordy was in a coma. Angel just up and left coma girl to talk to Buffy about how much he wanted to be with her. That's just... God! He's such a jerk! Given what was happening in AtS at that moment, it didn't make sense that Angel would show up and make with the mate guarding. I try not to base my predictions for the future on that scene. I feel like it was a "throw-a-bone-to-the-Angel-fans" scene. If it hadn't been the end of the series, I don't think it would have happened. It felt out of place and very forced. If they're gonna have that maybe forever talk, then Buffy needs to be clear on a few things about Angel: that he's in love with Cordy, that he has a son, and that he's CEO of Hell Incorporated all among them. The cookie dough scene was about paying tribute to the past, not about considering the realities of their present and future situations, including the immense likelihood that Buffy was going to die the next day. I don't think Cordy and Spike were just placeholders. They weren't treated that way on their respective shows, at least. I just think the cookie dough scene treated them that way because it was a craptastic, shallow, let's-have-David-in-for-one-last-appearance sort of scene.



And is no one going to answer my question about whether or not or how Buffy could have or would have fit into Angel's life? I was really counting on a Bangel fan to come up with something workable for that one.

[Keanoite]

But do you guys think the Buffy/Angel relationship would have worked post season 7?

In theory, there was nothing stopping a reunion in season 5 of Angel (aside from SMG wanting to leave Buffy). No longer burdened with the weight of the world, Buffy could go be a normal girl for awhile. She could go back to school. She could get a job. She could slay or train slayers... if she so chose (I believe she would have chosen to do so). Not even Spike would have been in her way, as she thought he was dead. After about a year of this "baking," she could realize that she was a capable adult after all and seek Angel out for his finale.

At that time, Angel was busy taking on the Black Thorn. Buffy would have been thrown for a loop when she found that Spike was alive, so let's pretend he wasn't. Would Buffy have approved of and/or participated in the plan to take down the Black Thorn? How would Buffy have felt about Connor and the memory mix up? Would she understand the fight-the-system-from-within approach behind taking over W&H? Basically, what I'm asking is would Buffy fit into Angel's life as we see it near the end of season 5? She is, in theory, relatively free of her burdens. The Hellmouth is closed. There are slayers everywhere. Like the rest of us, she can pick and choose where to apply her talents. Angel, however is bound by his contract with W&H as well as by his duty to the Powers and the curse on his soul. She'd have to be the one to go to him, then. Given all of these obligations, I don't see Angel's predicament changing very drastically within Buffy's lifetime. So I'm asking: how would Buffy have fit into Angel's life as it stands near the end of season 5?

I don't have the answer, but I think that's the key to determining whether or not their feelings can be taken into the land of the functioning relationship.


Ok since you asked bellow I'm going to try and come with some answers for your question. Now remember that I am Kean, Queen of Bangel Shipperness, and this may require all you non-believers to stretch the imagination an insy winsy bit.

Ok folks hop on the Bangel Train...

In your scenario Buffy is all baked up, her little timer has gone off and she is finally Angel Cookies. To me that means she wuld have spent the year considering all the options open to her, and found that having Angel in her life, in anyway she could get him, is better than anything else she could do. And lets face it she could do ANYTHING. In your scenario she picks Angel so to me that would say that she will take him any way she can, Evil Inc. and all.

How would she feel about Connor? Hurt, really hurt is my guess, but only for a while. I think it would take her time to get past the jealousy of someone else having Angel's baby, the stinging slap in the face that it was Darla and the irrational anger at Angel for not telling her and for daring to look at another woman never mind sleep with them. Once she saw how much Angel loved the kid, the Greek Tragedy that was the childs life and what Angel had to do give Connor a 'normal' existence I think alot of her anger would subside. Also I think she would identify with him because she essentially feels the same way about Dawn and has being playing Mom to her longer than Joyce ever ctually did.

Would she be down with W&H? Not with the company itself. I think the place would make her skin crawl but she trusts Angel despite what Andrew and Giles want us to think. If he explained why he was doing it I think she would go along with it because she knows him better than most regardless of their time apart and if he says he was doing it to try and do good I honestly think she would believe him.

The Blackthorn I think she would be for and against. If she knew he was signing away his Shanshu I think she would she that as him saying he didn't want to be with her and she would throw a fit. I think she would come to some not so nice realisations that Angel's world wasn't focused on her anymore and that he had a job to do much like her. I think her initial reaction would be to freak out out of hurt and fear of losing him but she would back him up. I have no doubt about that.


Now you can call that wishfull hoping,a fan wank, whatever but for me this is what would happen if the characters were staying true to themselves and the the show.

[alexa]

Angel and Buffy always slip in and out of eachother's lives rather well in my opinion. The scene in Forever and Chosen are really great at illustrating the connection they have. Undeniable. ;) I'd love for him to show up in season 8 somehow for a brief period anyway while he's in his own book.
But for the title of the thread of course Angel loved Buffy.. what show were you watching? :p I don't think you show up and make out with your ex and ask if she thinks about a future with you if you don't...

[palabravampiress]

Ok since you asked bellow I'm going to try and come with some answers for your question. Now remember that I am Kean, Queen of Bangel Shipperness, and this may require all you non-believers to stretch the imagination an insy winsy bit.

Ok folks hop on the Bangel Train...

In your scenario Buffy is all baked up, her little timer has gone off and she is finally Angel Cookies. To me that means she wuld have spent the year considering all the options open to her, and found that having Angel in her life, in anyway she could get him, is better than anything else she could do. And lets face it she could do ANYTHING. In your scenario she picks Angel so to me that would say that she will take him any way she can, Evil Inc. and all.

How would she feel about Connor? Hurt, really hurt is my guess, but only for a while. I think it would take her time to get past the jealousy of someone else having Angel's baby, the stinging slap in the face that it was Darla and the irrational anger at Angel for not telling her and for daring to look at another woman never mind sleep with them. Once she saw how much Angel loved the kid, the Greek Tragedy that was the childs life and what Angel had to do give Connor a 'normal' existence I think alot of her anger would subside. Also I think she would identify with him because she essentially feels the same way about Dawn and has being playing Mom to her longer than Joyce ever ctually did.

Would she be down with W&H? Not with the company itself. I think the place would make her skin crawl but she trusts Angel despite what Andrew and Giles want us to think. If he explained why he was doing it I think she would go along with it because she knows him better than most regardless of their time apart and if he says he was doing it to try and do good I honestly think she would believe him.

The Blackthorn I think she would be for and against. If she knew he was signing away his Shanshu I think she would she that as him saying he didn't want to be with her and she would throw a fit. I think she would come to some not so nice realisations that Angel's world wasn't focused on her anymore and that he had a job to do much like her. I think her initial reaction would be to freak out out of hurt and fear of losing him but she would back him up. I have no doubt about that.


Now you can call that wishfull hoping,a fan wank, whatever but for me this is what would happen if the characters were staying true to themselves and the the show.

This sounds like about a season's worth of development to me. lol. I would watch this season and be really and truly intrigued, of course. I just don't think it can all be taken care of at the end in a grand, Buffy-shows-up-for-the-finale sort of ending after she spends a year baking. For this scenario to have time to play out, I think she'd need to be season 5's replacement Spike.

I totally agree about Connor. I think she would be hurt, but then she'd come around.

I'm not so sure that I think Buffy would go along with W&H against her better judgment just because she trusts Angel. Or maybe I just don't want her to do so. I mean, she wouldn't kill Ben even when she knew he was (or contained) Glory. She wouldn't kill Spike even though The First was using him as its puppet. Buffy is a remarkably principled woman. By working for W&H, Angel & Co. are walking a tightrope that Buffy has never felt comfortable walking. They're doing things that they find morally wrong, but they're doing them for the greater good. That's not Buffy. I don't want Buffy to just go along with what Angel says. I hate it when she does that! lol. I'd like to think that by this stage in her life and in their relationship, Buffy has finally developed the self-confidence to demand to be treated as an equal in the relationship -- and that may mean asking Angel to make some compromises and/or sacrifices for her for a change.

I think it more likely that they'd agree to disagree. I think he'd keep doing what he does and she'd keep doing what she does, (sometimes working at cross-purposes) but that they'd leave that at the door when they were together (at some neutral place, like maybe an apartment in Pasadena or a little yacht down at Marina Del Rey. Sometimes, they'd even clash. I would much rather see this agree-to-disagree dynamic than another Buffy-does-what-Angel-says-because-he-lassoed-the-moon dynamic.

As far as the Black Thorn plot goes... I actually think that would have been a whole lot more interesting if Buffy had been in the picture. Let's face it... the Black Thorn was trying to test his loyalty when they asked him to kill Drogyn and sign away the Shanshu. If Buffy had been around, they would have asked him to kill Buffy - maybe even by drinking her or turning her. Like Buffy season 2, only in reverse! It would have been awesome! I won't pretend to know how that would have ended, but I think it would have been great.

Anyway, go you with your great answers, Keanoite!

What do you think about the curse? How would they have resolved that issue?

[Blondie Bear]

I always thought that Willow should be able to come up with some way to return Angel's soul WITHOUT the gypsy curse. Especially after having to do it three times.

[Keanoite]

This sounds like about a season's worth of development to me. lol. I would watch this season and be really and truly intrigued, of course. I just don't think it can all be taken care of at the end in a grand, Buffy-shows-up-for-the-finale sort of ending after she spends a year baking. For this scenario to have time to play out, I think she'd need to be season 5's replacement Spike.

I totally agree about Connor. I think she would be hurt, but then she'd come around.

I'm not so sure that I think Buffy would go along with W&H against her better judgment just because she trusts Angel. Or maybe I just don't want her to do so. I mean, she wouldn't kill Ben even when she knew he was (or contained) Glory. She wouldn't kill Spike even though The First was using him as its puppet. Buffy is a remarkably principled woman. By working for W&H, Angel & Co. are walking a tightrope that Buffy has never felt comfortable walking. They're doing things that they find morally wrong, but they're doing them for the greater good. That's not Buffy. I don't want Buffy to just go along with what Angel says. I hate it when she does that! lol. I'd like to think that by this stage in her life and in their relationship, Buffy has finally developed the self-confidence to demand to be treated as an equal in the relationship -- and that may mean asking Angel to make some compromises and/or sacrifices for her for a change.

I think it more likely that they'd agree to disagree. I think he'd keep doing what he does and she'd keep doing what she does, (sometimes working at cross-purposes) but that they'd leave that at the door when they were together (at some neutral place, like maybe an apartment in Pasadena or a little yacht down at Marina Del Rey. Sometimes, they'd even clash. I would much rather see this agree-to-disagree dynamic than another Buffy-does-what-Angel-says-because-he-lassoed-the-moon dynamic.

As far as the Black Thorn plot goes... I actually think that would have been a whole lot more interesting if Buffy had been in the picture. Let's face it... the Black Thorn was trying to test his loyalty when they asked him to kill Drogyn and sign away the Shanshu. If Buffy had been around, they would have asked him to kill Buffy - maybe even by drinking her or turning her. Like Buffy season 2, only in reverse! It would have been awesome! I won't pretend to know how that would have ended, but I think it would have been great.

Anyway, go you with your great answers, Keanoite!

What do you think about the curse? How would they have resolved that issue?


I agee about the the scenaio having moe of a season long arc about it, no way would this happen fast and efficiently. I mean it's Bangel! at least 3/4 of the season would be angst!

I'm not too happy with my answer now...it was a bit of a rush job last night. I'm torn on the W&H issue. I think your musing that she would do her thing while he did his sounds more plausible. Buffy is, well, Buffy The Vampie Slayer. Emphasis one the THE. She isn't going play second fiddle and either would Angel, so MAJOR compromising would have to take place. I agree that she is a woman of pinciples and that dicates most of what she does but she has an exception, and his name is Angel. She was willing to kill Faith for him, no questions asked, cold murder. Granted that would have been 5 years ago but there is a deep well of emotion for him and I think that wins out with her. I think they would fight on the issue pretty much all the time. Like any couple there is always that one issue that ye will argue on, that neither of you will conceed ground on and I think this would be one of those for Buffy and Angel. I don't think it would stop them persuing a relationship together but I do think it piss each other off.

That's an intesting theory about the Black Thorn. If it was Buffy they wanted him to kill instead of Fred, I don't think he would do it. (It would make for FABTASTIC tv if they made us think he killed her). I can't see him doing it I just can't, he would find another way, he may even have went on and sacificed Fred instead of Buffy. Also he would have had the Scooby gang onside so to speak becuase of Buffy, that would mean mega wicca Willow and Giles Knower of All at his disposal. I think that would have made a huge difference to how the end played out.

The curse to be honest I think could have been gotten aound. First of all, not only had Angel W&H at his disposal but he also had the council and Willow. He would have a wealth of information available to him, in the show the curse was never reseached as such, so we have to assume that it hasn't been. There could very well be a solution right under their noses. The curse was created as a means to keep them apart, if Buffy was in S5 it would be about Angel and Buffy being together, I think a miraculous loop-hole would be found to accomadate their reunion.

If the curse remained intact I still don't see too much of a problem. Buffy and Angel could still be intimate without completely seizing the day, so to speak. Although I think there would have to be certain restrictions, maybe Buffy having her own apartment opposed to living with Angel. It wouldn't be the sweeping dream but it would pretty close. I neve eally understood why they made SO much about the curse, there wee ways around it. ANd if things got ou of hand Willow is still handy with a Thesullahan orb!

[Junostar]

I think that having them move on and experience love with other people was a great idea. It made both Buffy and Angel grow as characters.

Yeah, the idea was a good one, but having her hook up with Spike, a vampire and former enemy, was not such a good idea. Angel had a soul, yet it is still strange that a slayer is hooking up with vampires, but Buffy and Spike was a little too much for viewers and their understanding. And that is one of the reasons why the ratings dropped in seasons 6 and 7.

Edit:

The thing is that they didn't really move on. Angel was having the cookie-dough talk with Buffy while Cordy was in a coma. Buffy went back to Spike after Angel left. They were both hanging on to the relationship even though they knew they couldn't have it right then. It made it feel like Cordy and Spike were just placeholders. Which isn't healthy or fair to Cordy and Spike.

True........................

[palabravampiress]

I agee about the the scenaio having moe of a season long arc about it, no way would this happen fast and efficiently. I mean it's Bangel! at least 3/4 of the season would be angst!

I'm not too happy with my answer now...it was a bit of a rush job last night. I'm torn on the W&H issue. I think your musing that she would do her thing while he did his sounds more plausible. Buffy is, well, Buffy The Vampie Slayer. Emphasis one the THE. She isn't going play second fiddle and either would Angel, so MAJOR compromising would have to take place. I agree that she is a woman of pinciples and that dicates most of what she does but she has an exception, and his name is Angel. She was willing to kill Faith for him, no questions asked, cold murder. Granted that would have been 5 years ago but there is a deep well of emotion for him and I think that wins out with her. I think they would fight on the issue pretty much all the time. Like any couple there is always that one issue that ye will argue on, that neither of you will conceed ground on and I think this would be one of those for Buffy and Angel. I don't think it would stop them persuing a relationship together but I do think it piss each other off.

That's an intesting theory about the Black Thorn. If it was Buffy they wanted him to kill instead of Fred, I don't think he would do it. (It would make for FABTASTIC tv if they made us think he killed her). I can't see him doing it I just can't, he would find another way, he may even have went on and sacificed Fred instead of Buffy. Also he would have had the Scooby gang onside so to speak becuase of Buffy, that would mean mega wicca Willow and Giles Knower of All at his disposal. I think that would have made a huge difference to how the end played out.

The curse to be honest I think could have been gotten aound. First of all, not only had Angel W&H at his disposal but he also had the council and Willow. He would have a wealth of information available to him, in the show the curse was never reseached as such, so we have to assume that it hasn't been. There could very well be a solution right under their noses. The curse was created as a means to keep them apart, if Buffy was in S5 it would be about Angel and Buffy being together, I think a miraculous loop-hole would be found to accomadate their reunion.

If the curse remained intact I still don't see too much of a problem. Buffy and Angel could still be intimate without completely seizing the day, so to speak. Although I think there would have to be certain restrictions, maybe Buffy having her own apartment opposed to living with Angel. It wouldn't be the sweeping dream but it would pretty close. I neve eally understood why they made SO much about the curse, there wee ways around it. ANd if things got ou of hand Willow is still handy with a Thesullahan orb!

Yeah... I always thought the curse was lame. In another thread, I talked about how they could have dealt with it like normal couples deal with intimacy issues. But you're right; there are always resources like Giles, Willow, and W&H to take advantage of. If Willow can re-ensoul Angel several times, then I think she should be able to do so without the curse.

[Buffybot]

Totally had to add this in here. You'll notice that Angel can "sleep" with anyone he chooses, but sleeping with Buffy causes him to loose his soul. Buffy is the ONLY person who could give him the "ultimate happiness". Which, thus, he must love her. I'm not saying that he didn't have feelings for others, just that the feelings and comfort he got from Buffy were stronger. Kind of ironic, the one person he loved completely, would cost him is soul.... he he he :)

[Joyce Summers]

Totally had to add this in here. You'll notice that Angel can "sleep" with anyone he chooses, but sleeping with Buffy causes him to loose his soul. Buffy is the ONLY person who could give him the "ultimate happiness". Which, thus, he must love her. I'm not saying that he didn't have feelings for others, just that the feelings and comfort he got from Buffy were stronger. Kind of ironic, the one person he loved completely, would cost him is soul.... he he he

That's what I always realized. The soul-loosing thing only ever happened with Buffy. Because Buffy is the one that gave him perfect happiness. The others were just your every day happiness; the kind that most of us get in life. But Buffy was the one that completely made him forget what he was and all the awful things he had done hence the soul lossage

[palabravampiress]

Totally had to add this in here. You'll notice that Angel can "sleep" with anyone he chooses, but sleeping with Buffy causes him to loose his soul. Buffy is the ONLY person who could give him the "ultimate happiness". Which, thus, he must love her. I'm not saying that he didn't have feelings for others, just that the feelings and comfort he got from Buffy were stronger. Kind of ironic, the one person he loved completely, would cost him is soul.... he he he :)

To be fair, it only happened that once - and hadn't she just had a very near death experience? I always thought that the sex thing sort of masked the real issue. I thought the real thing that had led to his perfect happiness was the same thing that led to the sex: them taking pleasure in the fact that she was alive. That would explain why it never happened with anyone else. In part because of his fear of the curse and in part because of circumstances, we never saw him grab onto that life-affirming joy with such abandon after that. When he found out that Connor was alive, for example, he also found out that his son wanted to kill him. The writers were sure to not only make it so that sex was always more emotionally complicated after that, but that other moments of possible emotional euphoria were always complicated by emergencies or accompanied by opposite emotions and circumstances. So basically, my theory is that it wasn't sex in general or even sex (or near sex, as with Cordy) with someone he loved that made him so happy he lost his soul; it was the emotions brought about by that particular sexual experience, and that particular sexual experience had a lot to do with being very life-affirming (at least affirming of Buffy's life).

At least, that was my take on it. I might be fanwanking. I always thought it would be too cheesy and shallow if it was just that banging a 16-year-old Buffy made Angel's soul sing the Hallelujah Chorus. I wanna like Angel, and I can't do that if I think he's such a perv that the greatest happiness he has ever or will ever know is his first time with a teenage girl who is more than two centuries his junior. I mean, eww. That's pervy.

[Tranquillity]

I always thought that the curse was a bit lame too. It's important to his character but it becomes such a burden! I mean i get how finally getting with the girl of your dreams, experienceing souled love for the first time could lead to perfect hapiness. But what about the second time? i don't know and they don't know either because they never gave it another shot. Instead it contributed to the mythos of 'Buffy loves Angel' (i don't mean this as in their love was mythical, i mean in in the sense that their love was of mythic proportions) and their inability to consumate the relationship only heightened this. Surely if they had commited to a relationship, regardless of the curse, then the day to day 'mundaness' of their relationship would have reduced the risk of perfect happiness - if you get what i'm saying. And then, when Connor arrived, surely as a parent his perfect happiness would have become tied up in Connor rather than his ex-girlfriend. I'm a parent and this certainly conforms with my experiences. And also, i don't think it was just Buffy - I think that episode where Angel has his fantasy perfect day (name??, season four, the fang gang use it to bring out Angelus) certainly implies that Cordelia has the potential to produce perfect happiness (since Angel's perfect happiness seems to be intrinsicly linked to sex) and so therefore would suggest real love equitable with what he felt for Buffy.
Sorry for the rambling, haphazard nature of this post. I can't seem to get my thoughts in gear

[Joyce Summers]

At least, that was my take on it. I might be fanwanking. I always thought it would be too cheesy and shallow if it was just that banging a 16-year-old Buffy made Angel's soul sing the Hallelujah Chorus. I wanna like Angel, and I can't do that if I think he's such a perv that the greatest happiness he has ever or will ever know is his first time with a teenage girl who is more than two centuries his junior. I mean, eww. That's pervy.

I agree with the other point you made, I do- it's a good theory as regards to Angel losing his soul. But as I saw it on a pure giving-into-love-in-the-most-physical-way-possible level I never thought that the concept of sex with 17-year-old Buffy making him so deliriously happy he lost his soul was pervy. Quite the contrary; it showed that it wasn't just sex and that he was getting the yah-yahs from doing her, but showed this was an expression (and oh god, I can't believe how cheesy I'm going to sound saying this) of their love. Their love was so great and so powerful that to be able to commit to it and express it on this intense passionate level allowed Angel to forget every evil he had ever commited as right then all that mattered was Buffy and the two being in each other's arms.

If you ignore the drama cheese there you might reach my point, haha. Basically I'm saying that I never interpreted in a pervy way. As for the age difference thing; there's been creepier couple age gaps. At least Angel looks like a college boy. Haha. And you have to remember Romeo and Juliet (Okay so it was written centuries ago, but still) in which Juliet was only fourteen whilst Romeo was an adult.

And okay, so admittedly Buffy's whole seizing the moment thing was a really big mistake, but it all worked out in the end. Mostly. Eventually. Not at all.

[palabravampiress]

I agree with the other point you made, I do- it's a good theory as regards to Angel losing his soul. But as I saw it on a pure giving-into-love-in-the-most-physical-way-possible level I never thought that the concept of sex with 17-year-old Buffy making him so deliriously happy he lost his soul was pervy. Quite the contrary; it showed that it wasn't just sex and that he was getting the yah-yahs from doing her, but showed this was an expression (and oh god, I can't believe how cheesy I'm going to sound saying this) of their love. Their love was so great and so powerful that to be able to commit to it and express it on this intense passionate level allowed Angel to forget every evil he had ever commited as right then all that mattered was Buffy and the two being in each other's arms.

If you ignore the drama cheese there you might reach my point, haha. Basically I'm saying that I never interpreted in a pervy way. As for the age difference thing; there's been creepier couple age gaps. At least Angel looks like a college boy. Haha. And you have to remember Romeo and Juliet (Okay so it was written centuries ago, but still) in which Juliet was only fourteen whilst Romeo was an adult.

And okay, so admittedly Buffy's whole seizing the moment thing was a really big mistake, but it all worked out in the end. Mostly. Eventually. Not at all.

Hehe. I thought it was funny that you kept interrupting yourself to excuse the cheesiness. lol.

Anyway; I can see that side of things. I do think Buffy and Angel were deeply and powerfully in love (that's a Xander reference; man, does Xander have the best lines, or what?). I do think that the physical expression of that love could have been touching and wonderful and made Angel temporarily forget his past horribleness. I think it's kind of sweet, actually.

I've got an Angel side and an Angelus side when it comes to Bangel. lol. Part of me sees the romance; the other side sees the dysfunction. I just tend more toward the Angelus side. :-) I still think it's a little pervy, though. I always did. There's just something creepy to me about the Angel/Buffy connection. I mean, she's a Freshman in high school when he watches her "get called." That's... well, guys in the 200+ category should *not* be falling at first sight for high school Freshmen, even if they are romantic and genuinely on the up-and-up about it. I know Angel's not really going to find many folks in his age bracket, and so the age gap might be softened by the idea that the couple of years between high school and adulthood don't really amount to much when there are centuries in the mix, but still... I think it's the teeny-bopperness of it all that bothers me. I mean, Angel is really, really old -- too old for puppy love. He didn't just look like a college boy; he acted like one (or, possibly like a high school one). That, I think, it what really seemed pervy to me.

But I don't think the losing-his-soul-because-of-it thing was pervy. I think that had to do with the aforementioned life-affirming goodness of sex and, like you said, the strength of their love. Because yeah, it was a pretty strong love, and it definitely was written and played in a grand, sweeping, epic love sort of style that would make the physical expression of that love also be a grand, sweeping, epic sort of thing.

[Joyce Summers]

Oh yeah, I agree the whole watching her outside Hemery was a little high on the creep factor. And it was the fact he was in that old worn down car as he seedily wound down the window and slipped down in his seat to watch her. The Mise-en-Scene there was all wrong and screamed 'Evil pervert!'. It would have seemed entirely appropriate if at that moment an entourage of overly defensive mothers dragged him out of the car, beating them with Soccer Mom purses whilst calling him a creep.

I mean, Angel is really, really old -- too old for puppy love. He didn't just look like a college boy; he acted like one (or, possibly like a high school one). That, I think, it what really seemed pervy to me.

And I think that kinda links to how Angel was in life. I mean Liam was definitely as immature as they come and a 'drunken, whoring layabout'. Angel will never be too old for puppy love because that's all that Liam ever knew, could ever bother to know. Because I think, as I saw it anyway, vampires get stuck in the same perceptions they had when they were killed. As Spike became stuck in his romantic, caring, 'Mummy's Boy' nature as that's what he was like when he was sired. I mean he only machoed up to impress Dru and to become equal to Angelus. It would also explain why he was softer than Angel even when Spike didn't have a soul- falling in love with Buffy, crying over Dru, bonding with Joyce, caring about Dawn. And wow, I've gone off topic there. Haha.

What I'm saying is for Angel- no matter how creepy it may seem- instant love-at-first-sight infatuation was and always will be possible for Angel because Liam never grew past that.

I hope that made sense, I think I babbled for Sunnydale there. Haha.

[palabravampiress]

Oh yeah, I agree the whole watching her outside Hemery was a little high on the creep factor. And it was the fact he was in that old worn down car as he seedily wound down the window and slipped down in his seat to watch her. The Mise-en-Scene there was all wrong and screamed 'Evil pervert!'. It would have seemed entirely appropriate if at that moment an entourage of overly defensive mothers dragged him out of the car, beating them with Soccer Mom purses whilst calling him a creep.



And I think that kinda links to how Angel was in life. I mean Liam was definitely as immature as they come and a 'drunken, whoring layabout'. Angel will never be too old for puppy love because that's all that Liam ever knew, could ever bother to know. Because I think, as I saw it anyway, vampires get stuck in the same perceptions they had when they were killed. As Spike became stuck in his romantic, caring, 'Mummy's Boy' nature as that's what he was like when he was sired. I mean he only machoed up to impress Dru and to become equal to Angelus. It would also explain why he was softer than Angel even when Spike didn't have a soul- falling in love with Buffy, crying over Dru, bonding with Joyce, caring about Dawn. And wow, I've gone off topic there. Haha.

What I'm saying is for Angel- no matter how creepy it may seem- instant love-at-first-sight infatuation was and always will be possible for Angel because Liam never grew past that.

I hope that made sense, I think I babbled for Sunnydale there. Haha.

Oooh! Good point about vamps getting stuck in their mortal frame-of-mind when they die!

I think you're onto something. Angelus drove Drusilla insane before he killed her... because he knew she would then be forever insane after she was vamped. I believe he called it "an eternity of torment." So your theory doesn't just apply to Spike' it applies to Dru, too, and Angelus even practically said as much. Good theory.

[Joyce Summers]

I think you're onto something. Angelus drove Drusilla insane before he killed her... because he knew she would then be forever insane after she was vamped. I believe he called it "an eternity of torment." So your theory doesn't just apply to Spike' it applies to Dru, too, and Angelus even practically said as much. Good theory.

See : points to own head: Not just a hat stand my friend. I hadn't consciously acknowledged how it applies to Dru- but yes that is very true. And yee gods, Angelus agrees me, haha. That might not be a good thing....

It also theoretically applies to Darla also. Darla was definitely one of the most sensual vampires we came across- she just oozed 'Hey look I have sex appeal' vibes- and we all know what her profession was before she was vamped. She also had a very bitter outlook on life saying how God has already forgotten her, which would explain why she was the one that killed so viciously out of the fanged four 'Picking fruit off the vine'. I mean her personality and view of the world was only allowed to change when she became human again in Angel- she was alive again and so was allowed to grow once more.

I'd like to go into this more but beyond the fanged four I can't remember any other vamps. Except Dracula and well, we only know him as Dracula. Haha.

[Kana]

Oh yeah, I agree the whole watching her outside Hemery was a little high on the creep factor. And it was the fact he was in that old worn down car as he seedily wound down the window and slipped down in his seat to watch her. The Mise-en-Scene there was all wrong and screamed 'Evil pervert!'. It would have seemed entirely appropriate if at that moment an entourage of overly defensive mothers dragged him out of the car, beating them with Soccer Mom purses whilst calling him a creep.



And I think that kinda links to how Angel was in life. I mean Liam was definitely as immature as they come and a 'drunken, whoring layabout'. Angel will never be too old for puppy love because that's all that Liam ever knew, could ever bother to know. Because I think, as I saw it anyway, vampires get stuck in the same perceptions they had when they were killed. As Spike became stuck in his romantic, caring, 'Mummy's Boy' nature as that's what he was like when he was sired. I mean he only machoed up to impress Dru and to become equal to Angelus. It would also explain why he was softer than Angel even when Spike didn't have a soul- falling in love with Buffy, crying over Dru, bonding with Joyce, caring about Dawn. And wow, I've gone off topic there. Haha.

What I'm saying is for Angel- no matter how creepy it may seem- instant love-at-first-sight infatuation was and always will be possible for Angel because Liam never grew past that.

I hope that made sense, I think I babbled for Sunnydale there. Haha.

Liam is an interesting one but I don't believe vampires are static by nature. spike held onto traits on his human life but his experiences as a vampire have also shaped him. I think Angel's the same. I do think that Angel is about idealistic expectation. As Liam, he was always looking for someone exciting and interesting, he thought he found it in Darla. Definitely, who they once were informs what they have become as Darla said, but I always felt the age thing was irrelevant to Angel. He had a much more 'grown up' thing with Cordy. I think it was more about what Buffy respresented to him as a person.

[Bangelxx]

I think Buffy will always have a special place in her heart for her first love, Angel although its fair to say that shes moved on.
Did Angel love her? well, I'd like to believe that but I think he's moved on as well. I really loved his scene though! "I started it! " when buffy mentions spike has a soul now. Maybe they're not really in love anymore but they certainly still have feelings for eachother.

[RogueHunter]

Just my opinion, but when there is one person you really connect with, you will always be in love with them on some level.

[palabravampiress]

^ Do you really think so?

I mean, feelings, yes... I think it's safe to say that I will always have feelings of some sort toward my ex. But it's been two-and-a-half-years since I've actually physically laid eyes on him (in person, not just in pictures on the internet). We keep in touch via e-mail maybe once every six months. No matter what I felt for him once upon a time ago, I'd be hard pressed to say that is any level of love now. Sure, when we see each other every couple of years, there's something there. It's something that I can't quite define. Loyalty, maybe? Shared experience? I just don't think it's love.

I think Buffy and Angel kind of fall into the same category. I mean, what they had was intense, but what they have barely exists. Angel's human and fighting demons in hell. She's Queen Bee Slayer and has a new bed warmer. They've both had other relationships since. Sure, there's something there when they see each other. But is it love? On any level? I really don't know. I don't know if it's possible to love someone with whom you have no real present day relationship.

[Evilyn]

It's defintely possible to love someone with whom you have no real, present day relationship. I mean, do you stop loving someone just because they have passed from this life. Does a child stop loving a father or a mother, just because they live in seperate house holds and may only see each other a couple of days out of a month. Do you stop loving your best friend just because you haven't seen them since graduation?

I think the thing is, there are many different types of love, and some are more deep than others. Just because they aren't together now and have no relationship, doesn't mean he doesn't love her and vice versa. It may not be as stong and as passionate as it was 10 years ago, but it's still love. I mean, yeah I have a few exes that are still friends and that I still care for, but none I would up and passionately kiss when I see them the way Buffy and Angel do. Because I never really knew love with them, so I don't harbour that kind of emotional attatchment to them.

I think that if given a second chance to build on their feelings, Buffy and Angel could have a real shot at a normal, healthy relationship. The love is there, they just have to let it grow.

[Keanoite]

I have to agree with Evilyn, not just becuase of Bangel but because I personally know what she is talking about,I have felt and continue to feel love for people who are no longer in my life. I have a friend who I love as much as you can possibly love someone your not related to. Not in love but I suppose Xander/Willow(ish)? just without the naughty touching;) Just his presence makes me happy, like goofy grin happy. I'm a better person for knowing him. The thing is we go through stages where we barely even acknowledge eachothers existence. Crazy I know, but it's true. Until January we had NOTHING to do with eachother for a year but I still loved him as much as ever. Love really is blood. Just cause someone is out of sight doesn't mean they are out of your heart.

[palabravampiress]

Hm. Now I'm kind of envious of you guys.

Time does seem to matter for me. It does dull emotions. Most of all, it dulls memories. I have a pretty bad memory, so... if someone's not in my face (or at least on my computer screen) at least once a week or so, I tend to forget and move on without feeling any real sense of loss. The relationship just sort of... fades out very naturally. Kinda like when someones dies.

[Kana]

Well this clinches it, we will always analyse such situations based upon our own feelings.

It reminds me a little of the ep Heartthrob on Ats. James and Angel both had different views on love but that doesn't mean one was right and one was wrong. Personally I take these things at face value most of the time. If Angel says it's a forever love then, well, ok. I'm not Angel, I can't say "No you don't feel that way " just because I've never felt like that.

Some people are very much, when it's over it's over but I've always felt Buffy and Angel are both reflective idealists, as lovers and as warriors: Mission definers who both feel or felt loneiless of being a Slayer or the burden of being the vampire with a soul (Spike notwitstanding because he's never had to be *THE ONE*) both leaders. If possible, they both probably understand the plight of the other better than ever before.

He's what I wrote about them in another forum (don't worry Spuffy fans I wrote something about Spike and Buffy in the same post)

The Metaphor: What does this represent?

Admittedly this is my own feelings on the matter however it is mixed in with the intentions of the writers so..
For me Buffy and Angel typfies the first romantic ideal. It's the dream of falling in love as much as falling in love itself. They are all the other can see and I definitely relate to that in my teenage years. Breaking up feels like the the whole world is ending and hence Acathla. Oh first love...

It's also the idea of sleeping with a guy for the first time and wondering why he's acting different. The confusion of 'is it me?' I suppose really encompasses the uncertainty of first love. Often Buffy wonders if Angel is the control and everything is else is the variable. Well, often at first. Is it a wonder why the episode is called innocence in which Angel loses his soul? Buffy is innocent to the effects of sleeping with Angel (compare to Spike and Buffy's relationship).

What I also noted is that more so than with Spike it was about 'holding hands'. Despite how unconventional the relationship was, she did call Angel her boyfriend and reflected upon the idea of how it could be normal. (And so again we get this romantic ideal, the dream, the fantasy she mentions that in IWRY of him becoming human). Also when he is with soul thy are dating. When he is without soul they are enemies so in that respect the lines are more defined (compare with Spike soulled and soulless states)

Definitely it fits Angel as he is more idealistic or reflective than Spike. If Spike is great at seeing what is, Angel likes to see what could be.

Match?

Where Buffy and Angel connect is that they are both reflective idealists, mission definers. Buffy needs to know what it means to be a Slayer and Angel reflects on what it means to be a champion. They both need to know what it means to them and that's a connection in itself. They reflect in each other with their respective initiations, well this is more Angel. He sees his path in her to become what he wants to be: someone. If both of them have the same mission they could be great match because they both understand the burden of leadership and value meaning in the mission beyond the simple "Do the right thing". They questor types and if they arrive in the same place, this could be a solid match.

Mismatch?

The above is dependent on the two of them arriving in the same place but I'm not entirely sure these two fit in each others world anymore. Others have talked about Buffy outgrowing Angel but it maybe that both of them are so fixed upon their mission that it will be heavily dependent on where they are in their mission. This is crucial for the two of them because we know how much their missions mean to them. On at least occasion Angel went against Buffy because he believed in something different so more so than with Buffy and Spike, Angel and Buffy could clash. This was established as early as Season four of Buffy/Season 1 of Angel.

Also, what about the curse? That is always a danger. If Buffy is still how Angel defines happiness then we have a problem. If not then that may be indicative that Angel's moved on anyway.

EDIT: I still look at the curse because I'm not up to date with Angel Season 6. As far as I know Angel's human state isn't necessarily permenant


EDIT: I couldn't resist posting about Spike and Buffy for comparisons. Sorry if off topic.

Spike and Buffy

Metaphor: What does this represent?

I think this was meant to typify a more adult relationship. While an idealistic view of love can follow us closely throughout our years I personally focused more on the realities of relationships: Sex can mean just sex, etc. Also the tone of an abusive relationship is more adult in it's nature. Life stops becoming the dream. When Angel was turned it was like it wasn't really him, something different and evil and Buffy was innocent. In this relationship at least in S6, Buffy was not innocent. She instigated this. She was not only the abused but she was the abuser. The loss of innocence seems inevitable in adulthood but they took it to the extreme. (Compare this to Cangel. Look at the scene in Provider. It's almost a representation of the other way an adult relationship can go. Building a family)

Also when we grow up we find that lines become more blurry. Things aren't as simple as they was. If the concept of Angel started the whole idea of moral ambiguity when it comes to vampires then Spike brings it to a whole new level. Spike is a soulless vampire and Buffy kills them on a nightly basis. Why is Spike special? This seems more adult because it deals with complexity of relationships, something we tend to understand more as we get older due to experience.

When he is soulled however, things are still blurry but in a different way. They have this 'connection' but she states on many occasions (even to Angel) that he isn't her boyfriend. If they are sleeping together when he was soulless does that make it a relationship? Spike seems to think so whereas Angel doesn't (see Wes/Lilah for more of the sex vs relationship debate).

Match?

I think Spike's adaptibilty really serves him well. He can fit in Buffy's world because honestly Spike can fit in most worlds. He cannot help but connect with what is going on around him and this connection and support of Buffy is what she needed in S7 (at the end). Spike doesn't seem to mind deferring the decision making to Buffy, he even managed it with his old rival Angel. I can't see Angel doing that as well especially as he's so caught up in his own mission. (Compare this with Cordy who although she didn't agree with Angel's mission still had faith in his leadership and that he can work his way out). Spike wont push his 'own mission' as strongly as his grandsire and a leader like Buffy needs that. She needs support, not another cook spoiling her broth. Spike can be that, imo. Lover, companion, supporter. Also he isn't cursed.

Also Spike is more available to her than Angel was, emotionally and otherwise. Whether soulled or soulless he had that emotional honesty and connected with her in that respect.

Mismatch?

Well, although I believe Spike has the best chance with Buffy he needs to get over his whole "I'm not worthy thing". If he can't respect himself in that capacity then I doubt she'll respect him in the long run. Spike luckily is growing out of his whole "Everything I do, I do it for you" mentality. This was one of the problems had with their relationship, is that lack of balance and part of this was down to his lack of soul and the other was his lack of personal development beyond 'the girl'. I think time apart from Buffy did him the world of good. But there is still the question of feeling worthy.

A lot of people say "Oh but Spike earnt her love but Angel didn't" My response to that is, why should he have to? Yes Angel didn't earn her love but she didn't earn or ask for their love either. Shouldn't it work both ways? This is what I meant by balance. Of course Buffy has to resolve the whole superiority complex thing in either case. She got insight into it which is a start.

[xgirlanachronism245x]

Yeah I think he loved her. I think, in some way, he always will. I mean their love was monumental. It almost ended the world.

I think Nina is a non-issue. I don't like her (sorry) and I don't really think that there was any potential between them. Cause who ould compare with Buffy and then Cordy.

I'm not really a Bangel supporter (Spuffy all the way for me), so my opinion might be a little biased. But there is a difference between loving someone and being in love with someone. I'd like to believe that Angel still loved her but wasn't in love with her, because for the most part they both moved on and are seeing other people.

But she's still baking... so, somewhere down the line, who knows what will happen?

[RogueHunter]

Well this is one of those big male/female differences. When a man truly falls in love with a woman, he will love her forever. If he doesn't see her for 46 years and she left him for his best friend, his heart will burn with hatred so pure it has to be love. (Contrary to popular opinion, apathy is the opposite of love, not hate).
Women on the other hand have an amputee effect with love. A woman could have spent twenty years with a man, have six kids and when her heart turns off, its off. She could see him on the street and struggle to remember his name.
But the key is, that this only happens when the woman decides she has had enough.
Women are forces of nature, like tornadoes and hurricanes. No one knows where or when they're coming, they can't be predicted or controlled and they just have to run their course leaving all kinds of devastation in their wake, as well as that incredibly beautiful rainbow.

[alexa]

Whoah I don't know about all women being like that. ;) I don't find men predictable.
Got to agree though that once you've really connected with someone you always love them on some level. At least that's how it works with me. Especially when we're talking about Buffy and Angel.. she was the only person who could give him perfect happiness.

[Starlet]

I'm sure Angel still had feelings for Buffy. She was very important person in his life,his first love. He'll never stop caring about her at all.
Does he still love her? I don't know, maybe yes. But surely not in the same level as he did before he left her. I just can't believe that after all that happened with Cordy, his feelings for Buffy didn't change. He loved Cordy, he admitted that himself. I even think that his feelings for Cordy were deeper than those for Buffy. Cordy was the one who knew him better, who was by his side in the hardest moments. She loved him and he loved her back, he proved it many times. And then she's in a comma, Angel comes to Buffy and asks her if he have chance for a cookie? I just didn't get it. I think it was just caused by this moment, he haven't seen her for a long time, then they met and it reminded him about old times. I don't think that Angel really wanted that much to get the cookie...

[palabravampiress]

^ Yeah. That made me mad! I was like, "What about Cordy?!" That was a rather rat-bastard thing for him to do. It was sort of crappy for Buffy, too, but at least Spike wasn't in a freakin' coma!

Granted, none of them ever agreed to any sort of commitment, so that makes things better. But still. I thought it was awfully craptastic of him to go kissing on Buffy when Cordy was in a coma.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

I think seeing Spike and her together made him jealous, and the jealousy was like a big "oh crap... im still really in love with her." Because if he was past the point, he wouldn't care. He might think it weird or gross lol considering its spike and how HE'S known spike and all... but he wouldn't feel that strong about it, if there wasn't love.

[Keanoite]

Personally I don't think that him loving Buffy is even a question. It's an established fact. Just look at 'The Girl in Question' which was months after S7, it is made clear on several occasions in the episode that he is still in love with her.

[palabravampiress]

^ All I have to say to that is poor poor Cordy. She really gets the short end of that stick.


And dude... D.B. looks kind of weird in your av. I almost didn't recognize him. He looks sort of like the villain from a silent movie, what with the dark eyebrows and the goatee (sp?). Napkin check! I'm getting this image of him wearing a bowler hat or maybe a cape whilst twirling his mustache and saying, "You must pay the rent! You must pay the rent! You must pay the rent! You must!" Only he's doing it in color... and in a bathtub. Bahaha. And Buffy's standing there next to the commode in a mock swoon going, "I can't pay the rent! I can't pay the rent! I can't pay the rent! I can't!" For some reason, she's wearing a very large bow in her hair. It's a pretty funny mental image. There's an entire funny scene going on in my head right now, and it's all thanks to your avatar. Dude... this should totally be a board game.

[Vampmogs]

Yeah I think he still loved her. That's the whole tragedy of their relationship isn't it? They didn't break up because they had fallen out of love with each other, they broke up because they couldn't be together. It'll always be tragic for them because they do still love each other, but because of his curse and he's a vampire, they can't be together.

In the shooting script for season six's episode 'All the Way' when Anya says Xander is "the one person she's meant to be with" and "how often does the universe allow that to happen?" It actually says in the script that this hits Buffy right in the "Angel jugular."

They were meant to be together, but can't be together, hence big tragic Romeo/Juliet romance :lmao:

And yeah, Cordy did get the rough end of the stick for sure. Cangel had the oddest ending out of any relationship in the entire series. They just kind of dropped it all together, brought it back a little in ‘You’re Welcome’ but even then they acted more as friends, and then Angel seemingly almost forgot all about her and turned back to Buffy again. They really made a mess of that relationship.

[SlayerGirl01]

Yep, i do reakin they still loved each other.
It's Bangel, love from the start and till the end i say!

[bufsum]

Yes.

Nothing more needs to be said... accept my long response in the does Buffy love Spike thread. ;)

[Wishing Oceans]

I think that Buffy/Spike has taken over as the most "forbidden Love." : king : Anyway, I think that while Buffy will always care about Angel in a way, Spike is now the person that she loves. She will always remember Angel as her first love, but also as a love that was in some ways more perfect than Buffy/Riley, a shade of white. Now, she's moved on and has found more detailed relationships. Afterall, she barely sees Angel anymore, and almost no love lasts forever and ever... Except maybe spuffy. :love14:

Lol, I think that we are perhaps all making judgments that support our ship. :whistle:

[BASBritt]

Uh, YEAH! Dude went and got a soul for her. This vampire who took so much pride in his killings as a vampire went and got himself a SOUL so he could show her the impact she had made on him. That says love in every language, IMO.

[hannahfngrl26]

I read this and I had only one single thought
............duh............duh..............duh... ...........duh...........duh............duh....... ..duh..........duh.........duh.........duh........ ..duh..........duh.............duh.........duh.... ......duh
How can it even be a question? Every action and word about each other has almost always shown that they love each other and always will in one fashion or another. It is silly to even discuss that there is a possibility they did not. C'mon people. Even if you are not a Bangel fan the writers of the show only prove me to be correct.....

[scobro]

There is no force in the Jossverse stronger than Bangel.... well, maybe Ruffy but I wont go there again.

[pernilleborup]

^This guy is a dreamer!


I can't get into a whole discussion with lots of very convincing points atm. I am sleepy! but I will repeat:
Spike proved that love is stronger than evil. He defied his own nature, and went for a soul. through torture, and hard tests. It says a lot about him. Buffy realized what he had done. Fought to be able to love. To be able to be loved! Cos Buffy had been in a serious boat trip down tha nile! (see? Say it out loud! Tha nile! XD)

Spuffy turned out to be the most powerful force in the Jossverse! Did I make sense? ARGH Sleep

[Blackloliita]

I read the first post. And I can actually agree with this post. I mean she'll care about Angel, but it isn't like it's her soulmate or something. Spike clearly is. It's just your first love and blabla, it's hard to get over him and again blabla. It are especially his looks, his acting that made her fall for him, NOTHING more.