Rant - The Problem with Canon

[nerd4hire]

Let's begin with an assumption. It's resolved Buffy Season 8 is canon. The support for that being Joss says it is, so it is.

Up until the point of S-8's arrival however, there was a question as to whether Tales of the Slayers, or Tales of the Vampires were canon. Joss was a contributor, but there was never a clear statement as to their status.

In S-8 there have been, and apparently will be connections made to TotS, and TotV. The general feeling is this effectively canonizes those 2.

But what about Angel: After the Fall? Joss has made a comment establishing it as canon, so that confirms canon on that one by the Joss says it is, so it is rule. Here's the problem though. Brian Lynch is now connecting A:AtF it to his previously, without a question, non-canon works. The insinuation coming out of IDW comics now is this transfers canon status to all their previous Angel comics, in the same way canon status was confirmed on TotS, and TotV. Is that the case though?

I don't think so. First of all this isn't the first time IDW has tried to attribute canon status, on stuff that wasn't. They've been doing it since they first got the Angel contract.

My opinion is when they claim to transfer canon to non-canon stuff what they really do is water down the canon status of A:AtF. Personally I have a hard time thinking of A:AtF as canon now even though I know technically it is. I'm also getting the feeling Joss is distancing himself from A:AtF.

For me it's beginning to feel more and more like fan fic.

[goldenboy]

What makes you think Joss has distanced himself? Have Lynch and he stopped talking? Joss still has to sign off on scripts, yes?

I agree, you can't retrofit non-canon crapola and bring it into the Buffyverse fold, if that's what IDW is trying to do. Well, they can try...

[nerd4hire]

What makes you think Joss has distanced himself?

It's just this personal feeling, and probably shouldn't be taken seriously. It will no doubt be contradicted by a future Joss comment.

What if though...

What if Joss has been quietly watching IDW and Lynch's shennagins, and he doesn't approve. He can't really comment. It's not classy. He has to just stay quiet, sit back, and wait until the contract with IDW expires, then quietly transfer it back to Dark Horse.

[Black Eye Guy]

I would agree with it seems like he's distant from Angel, I would think that because with Buffy it was obvious and in your face how he was connected to the comic, he's not like that with Angel comic. He hand picked the artist and writers for Buffy, it's not like that for the angel comic, which either means he doesn't care or he's not as involved.

[Keanoite]

It's just this personal feeling, and probably shouldn't be taken seriously. It will no doubt be contradicted by a future Joss comment.

What if though...

What if Joss has been quietly watching IDW and Lynch's shennagins, and he doesn't approve. He can't really comment. It's not classy. He has to just stay quiet, sit back, and wait until the contract with IDW expires, then quietly transfer it back to Dark Horse.

I'm not disagreeing with you becuase I pretty much feel the same way but sitting back and staying quiet if he is not happy really isn't Joss Whedon's style is it?

[Allycat]

I get what you are saying about Joss not being as involved. Although I think it's a pity on the one hand, on the other hand, we have to admit we've only seen one or two issues yet. We know he planned out the story and Brian Lynch will be writing the first five at least... but after that... Brian has commented that there's multiple people involved with First Night; it could be Joss guest writing.

Second of course, there's Beta George and the retro-active canonicity issue. I agree that IDW started off all wrong trying to get us to think that the Curse and Old Friends were canon of any kind. They weren't. Neither are Brian's Spike series. Beta George came into the canon verse because Joss wanted it. Does that make the Spike-series canonical? No! TotS and TotV aren't going to be made canon because Joss is gonna connect them to S8. There are canon because he says they are and because he said so on the day they came out.

Personally, I feel Buffyverse canon isn't a very complicated subject matter; especially if you compare it to some other fandoms. Joss tells us. Greedy companies can do whatever they want to get us to buy their product and disgruntled fans can complain all they want when said product dissatifies them, but neither action will change its satus as canon.



He has to just stay quiet, sit back, and wait until the contract with IDW expires, then quietly transfer it back to Dark Horse.

I hate to break it to you but with AAtF #01 being their all-time no. 1 best-seller I don't think IDW is quite ready to lose the license.

[nerd4hire]

I get what you are saying about Joss not being as involved. Although I think it's a pity on the one hand, on the other hand, we have to admit we've only seen one or two issues yet. We know he planned out the story and Brian Lynch will be writing the first five at least... but after that... Brian has commented that there's multiple people involved with First Night; it could be Joss guest writing.

Link please.

Second of course, there's Beta George and the retro-active canonicity issue. I agree that IDW started off all wrong trying to get us to think that the Curse and Old Friends were canon of any kind. They weren't. Neither are Brian's Spike series. Beta George came into the canon verse because Joss wanted it.

Link please.

Does that make the Spike-series canonical? No! TotS and TotV aren't going to be made canon because Joss is gonna connect them to S8. There are canon because he says they are and because he said so on the day they came out.

Link please.

Personally, I feel Buffyverse canon isn't a very complicated subject matter; especially if you compare it to some other fandoms. Joss tells us. Greedy companies can do whatever they want to get us to buy their product and disgruntled fans can complain all they want when said product dissatifies them, but neither action will change its satus as canon.

Link please. I ask for these links not because I think the suggestions are bogus, but because I know a couple of them, and there's a problem with context. I suggest false context gives an incorrect impression.


I hate to break it to you but with AAtF #01 being their all-time no. 1 best-seller I don't think IDW is quite ready to lose the license.

Here's an example of false context. A:AtF may be IDW's no. 1 best seller, but it was # 41 on the comic charts. Without actually saying it there seems to be an insinuation IDW's A:AtF is so big it can't be messed with. Let's not suggest this is some sort of powerhouse comic DC and Marvel are shaking in their boots worrying about. The figures only have importance in IDW's private little world. If Fox, and Joss did decide not to renew IDW's contract (and I admit, I'm not even sure they could), the figures would not be a consideration. The same month IDW's Angel debut was 41st on the comic depth charts Dark Horse's Buffy # 8 was 10th. Here's (http://www.newsarama.com/marketreport/nov07sales.html) a link.

On television Angel and Buffy's ratings were similar with Angel Season 5 sometimes surpassing Buffy's largest ever ratings numbers. I'm pretty sure I'm correct about that. Here's (http://home.insightbb.com/~wahoskem/buffy.html) a link.

[Lyri]

I hate to break it to you but with AAtF #01 being their all-time no. 1 best-seller I don't think IDW is quite ready to lose the license.

just because IDW isn't ready to lose the licencse doesn't mean thay can't. correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't their some sort of talks between the comic people and Joss' people about who has the contract for Angel and Buffy? is Joss and Co. are unhappy with what IDW are doing with Angel, then N4H is right, he can just not renew their contract and give it back to Dark Horse. maybe then we'll get to see something much more Joss' style.

but to be fair to Lynch and IDW, i'm going to wait and see how this arc plays our before i make my mind up on the Cannonical issue. i've never read anything by Lynch before, i don't think, so i'll wait to see where this goes...but the telepathic fish is giveing me the wiggins.

[nerd4hire]

I haven't read #2, but doesn't another Lynchverse character enter the Angelverse in # 2 called Spider?

[tommy]

Heh, I could tell this was bugging you before you made the thread.

I think they can bring in characters from non-canon and even mention events from those stories without it having to mean that those become canon too. If you want those spin-off stories to be an alternate universe they still can be - they just happen to have a fish that looks the same.

I thought #5 would be co-scripted with Joss (http://www.whedon.info/Angel-After-The-Fall-Comic-Book,25220.html) but I guess that isn't official.

[alexa]

I also noticed how Lynch takes every opportunity to promote his previous non-canon work concerning Angel.. which is fine in a way, but not when he brings in too many character references from shadow puppets and whatever else.. find it a little insulting actually :p Don't know why, it's just there is a lot of bad bad bad (some not as bad) Buffyverse comics/books, so I don't like it when anyone associates one with the other. Having said that I haven't read Assylum or Shadow Puppets.

[Tranquillity]

I haven't read #2, but doesn't another Lynchverse character enter the Angelverse in # 2 called Spider?

what lynchverse book does Spider come from? I checked asylum and Shadow puppets and couldn't find a character by that name or did i miss something?

[nerd4hire]

Whedonesque.com links to a review on the date #2 was released. In the review he lists Lynchverse characters as Beta George, and Spider. That's all I've got. Maybe he's just saying it's a new character created by Lynch. I wouldn't have a problem with that, if that's what he's saying.

Edit:

Here's another problem with canon as pertains to A:AtF. The way it stands right now it's only supposed to be 10 issues long. I don't think it will surprise anyone if that run is extended, but what if rather than that, they continue on to other separate runs involving the different characters? What if Whedon does not specifically endorse them but they do remain true to Lynchverse canon. Does it then become necessary to have 2 canons for Angel - Lynchverse, and Whedonverse?

[ILLYRIAN]

white avenger posted that there may be a Buffy film, hopefully it happens.

But the thing is, would it be canon ? ......what if there are two reasons for the same item ? for arguements sake, Dawn being and not being a giant ?

[alexa]

What if Whedon does not specifically endorse them but they do remain true to Lynchverse canon. Does it then become necessary to have 2 canons for Angel - Lynchverse, and Whedonverse?

Hell no. Whedon is canon and or if Joss confirms that something is canon, unless Lynch is David Greenwalt in disguise and no one told me. ;)

But truthfully, yes to some people this might be the case.. being in a post modern society and all.

[Allycat]

Here's another problem with canon as pertains to A:AtF. The way it stands right now it's only supposed to be 10 issues long. I don't think it will surprise anyone if that run is extended, but what if rather than that, they continue on to other separate runs involving the different characters? What if Whedon does not specifically endorse them but they do remain true to Lynchverse canon. Does it then become necessary to have 2 canons for Angel - Lynchverse, and Whedonverse?

I think that in the event that after AAtF Lynch would write another comic. It would be subject to the same laws of canon like any other comic (meaning Joss has to say so). Since almost all comics try to not contradict canon as much as possible and since AAtF is canon, any new comic canon or not will have to take the events of AAtF into account. Whether it's written by Lynch or someone else.

[nerd4hire]

That's so cute. I'm having this exact same conversation on another board, only it's about global warming.

I say to him "OK, November was a cold month globally. December looks like it's going to be even colder. "What if" it stays cold for 2 years. The graphs all start to move downwards. The average guy looks at these downward graphs, and he's no longer sold on the idea the world is getting warmer. He starts to wonder why he's going to be asked to pay a carbon tax, more on his heating, and automobile gas, or even why he should forced to buy a new kind of energy saving light bulb. All of a sudden he gets the confusion a lot of us feel when we try to figure out what exactly it was Al Gore did to deserve a Nobel peace prize. All from 2 stinky little cold years."

So the guy replies, "This is what will happen. After December the climate will warm, and then....blah, blah, blah, icebergs melting, polar bears drowning, tidal waves through Manhattan etc..."

Then I go all Jerry Seinfield. I'm like, "I think you're missing the concept of the "What if". The idea of the what-if is you imagine some possibillity, and then consider 'what' would happen 'if' that possibillity happens. You don't consider what if, and then start talking about peas and potatoes, unless of course peas and potatoes are the what if. In this case however neither peas and potatoes, nor drowning polar bears were the what-if. The what-if was what happens if there's 2 cold years."

Bet you didn't think you'd click on this one, and find yourself considering global warming, did you? ;) Sorry about that. My point is the question was...

What if Whedon does not specifically endorse them but they do remain true to Lynchverse canon.

I didn't ask what happens if Whedon 'does' specifically endorse them. I said does 'not'. That word 'not' is another interesting one. We can discuss it if you'd like.

[Allycat]

Lol. I am well aware of the meaning of the word not. Although, you made me look it up to be sure ;)

Anyway, I thought my original message was clear on the point that it would need Joss' endorsement. Since in your hypothetical situation lacked such an endorsement, obviously, I would not consider it canon.

I think this situation is very similar to what is happening with some of the Buffy novels. They all take the TV series as basis, but some authors also use stuff from their previous Buffyverse works, which might contradict with other novels released around the same time by different authors. In a way such stories all have an alternative canon of their own.

[ILLYRIAN]

So global warming huh. It must have been cold some-where, 'cos we had the hottest November since 1920.
And to change the subject.....or if you've got a long memory

And now for some-thing completely different !

If you put a K in front of not, I could find out who else got kicked out of the Scouts 'cos they couldn't tie knots.
But then again you could ignore what I've posted as it's off topic, as per usual.