Heroes - Spike & Anya

[TrueVengeance]

I've seen this discussed on different forums, so I thought I'd bring it here.

Often times I see people saying how heroic Spike was in Chosen, but what about everyone else who went into the battle that day? Why are they not herioc as well? Fighting to save the world?

An another forum, the topic was dealing with Anya's death, and the issue was brought up that it was less heroic than Spike's. But my question is why, what makes her any less heroic than Spike? They were bother willing to die to protect the world...and they did. Spike may have saved millions of lives where Anya's didn't, but to me the number of lives you save doesn't matter. Its the fact that their willing to give up their lives for someone elses/the world/whatever. They both took one for the team, and their both equal in the "hero" department in my eyes.

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious to know what you all think.

What say you?

[GATEGOD]

I think Anya was just as Heroic and the fact that he comes back anyway takes away from his heroism and places Anya's death as even more heroic when she died fighting :cry:
Anyways, they were both heroic going into battle and when it ended for them :cry:

[TrueVengeance]

How's Spike's return take the heroism out of him? He didn't know he was coming back; which intention means alot I think...sometimes more than action

But I agree...would would've thought the demons would be the ones who ended up taking one for the team? Twas sad :(

[palabravampiress]

They were both heroes. They both chose their souls. They both fought even though they knew what they risked. They both died trying. Heroes.

I think they were equally heroic. The fact that Spike came back doesn't lessen his sacrifice. I mean, is Buffy's sacrifice at the end of season 5 any less heroic because her friends ripped her out of Heaven? I don't think so. He didn't *know* he'd come back. For that matter, we don't *know* for sure that Anya will never come back, either. Everyone who fought was a hero. Those who made the ultimate sacrifice, well, I think their actions speak for themselves.

Here's my question: do you think Anya went to Hell after she gave up her life? I was really disappointed by the fact that the conventional Buffyverse wisdom is that no matter how much good Spike and Angel do, their souls are still damned to a Hell dimension due to actions taken when they were soulless. That leads me to believe that Anya, who had, like, a good millennium on everyone else and wreaked vengeance for the majority of that time, must also be damned to a Hell dimension. That just doesn't seem right! I think if you die fighting to save the world, well, that should cancel out the bad that's come before. I think that kind of selfless sacrifice should be an automatic ticket into a Heaven dimension.

[TrueVengeance]

They were both heroes. They both chose their souls. They both fought even though they knew what they risked. They both died trying. Heroes.

I think they were equally heroic. The fact that Spike came back doesn't lessen his sacrifice. I mean, is Buffy's sacrifice at the end of season 5 any less heroic because her friends ripped her out of Heaven? I don't think so. He didn't *know* he'd come back. For that matter, we don't *know* for sure that Anya will never come back, either. Everyone who fought was a hero. Those who made the ultimate sacrifice, well, I think their actions speak for themselves.

I totally agree with your post :) Couldn't have said it better myself

Here's my question: do you think Anya went to Hell after she gave up her life? I was really disappointed by the fact that the conventional Buffyverse wisdom is that no matter how much good Spike and Angel do, their souls are still damned to a Hell dimension due to actions taken when they were soulless. That leads me to believe that Anya, who had, like, a good millennium on everyone else and wreaked vengeance for the majority of that time, must also be damned to a Hell dimension. That just doesn't seem right! I think if you die fighting to save the world, well, that should cancel out the bad that's come before. I think that kind of selfless sacrifice should be an automatic ticket into a Heaven dimension.

Hmm...not sure. When did they say Spike and Angel would be damned to a hell dimension? I can't remember. I remember Spike and Angel saying that about themselves...but that's just probably what they think. Unless TPTB state somewhere...I've missed alot of Angel hehe

But I imagine. If Spike and Angel are, I imagine she would as well. Unless TBTB aren't quite done with her yet...maybe she needs her own spinoff:lmao:
(I actually started writing one lol)

[Buffy obsessed fan]

They're both Heroes, though in actual fact, I think Anya was more heroic. I mean, sure Spike died to save the world, but Anya fought and was killed, Spike just put on an amulet and turned to dust. I get the whole big picture, but if you look deeper into things, I would have to go with Anya being more of a hero.

[sosa lola]

They're both heroes. Everybody was a hero in that battle. The fact that they went to fight knowing they'd die makes them heroes.

[Kana]

Like I've always said it's not a scobreboard. As everyone has said, both are heroes.

[palabravampiress]

They're both Heroes, though in actual fact, I think Anya was more heroic. I mean, sure Spike died to save the world, but Anya fought and was killed, Spike just put on an amulet and turned to dust. I get the whole big picture, but if you look deeper into things, I would have to go with Anya being more of a hero.

People always say that. But Spike didn't just stand around waiting for the amulet to make his soul explode. He didn't know that's what was going to happen. Remember that awesome slow-mo shot in which Buffy's fighting in the foreground and Spike's like leaping through the air about to slice open an uber vamp in the background? Everyone who went to the school (except for Willow, who was busy with the mojo) fought. It may not have been a sword that took Spike, but it was the same concept. They both went to the Hellmouth to fight the minions of the First Evil. They both knew they might die, but they went anyway. And then, they didn't make it back. Like TrueVengeance said, the demons ended up "taking one for the team." I don't see one as any more heroic than the other (although I do see one as more fortunate than the other... that being Spike, obviously, since he got a second chance at his unlife and Anya is still dead).

[Edmund Blackadder]

They're both Heroes, though in actual fact, I think Anya was more heroic. I mean, sure Spike died to save the world, but Anya fought and was killed, Spike just put on an amulet and turned to dust. I get the whole big picture, but if you look deeper into things, I would have to go with Anya being more of a hero.

This is a terrible thing to say. Anya was a hero, she gave her life to help save the world I do not understand how anyone could argue different to that BUT to say she was more heroic than Spike just because he had the amulet is absurd.
Neither went into battle thinking they would survive, its not like Spike went in thinking
'Bugger this for a larf, I'm going to have a bloody cuppa while the Slayer wannabes do most of the work then saunter in looking hot in my leather coat, put on that piece of bling and save the world'.
He went in to fight, to win just like Anya.
I think you need to rewatch Chosen and try to understand what is going on with them.
Fact is, even the ones that survived are equal to Spike and Anya, yes even Andrew, because they went in with the same mindset.
We may win, we may lose, we might survive we'll probably die but we have to do this to save the world.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

My take is, Spike knew he wasn't getting out alive. He knowingly sacrificed himself, where as Anya was fighting for survival as well as to help save the world.

That's not to say my personal opinion is Spike is the bigger "hero" but i just think thats what the majority views it as.

[Keanoite]

I'm gona put a spanner in the works and throw in what Joss said in the commentary for the ep...her death meant nothing. Not my words, his. I found it kinda surprising to be honest that he would say that. He mentions how Andrew makes up the story for Xander about her dying to save his life to comfort Xander, but ultimately he says her death meant nothing.

Personally I always saw her death as heroic, especially after her talk with Andrew in the hospital. She could have ran at any stage and didn't, she didn't have Xnader for an excuse for most of season 7 but she still stayed, fought and died. Thats Hero material in my book.

[TrueVengeance]

I'm gona put a spanner in the works and throw in what Joss said in the commentary for the ep...her death meant nothing. Not my words, his. I found it kinda surprising to be honest that he would say that. He mentions how Andrew makes up the story for Xander about her dying to save his life to comfort Xander, but ultimately he says her death meant nothing.

Personally I always saw her death as heroic, especially after her talk with Andrew in the hospital. She could have ran at any stage and didn't, she didn't have Xnader for an excuse for most of season 7 but she still stayed, fought and died. Thats Hero material in my book.

I watched that as well. I too was kinda suprised he said that. However, i think it was a good idea to have her be the one who's death was kinda...pointless, because she was always saying how death was stupid. And humans were stupid for fighting, etc... That's how she went out, fighting alongside humans to save the world. She doesn't have to save anyone directly to actually be heroic. Everyone who fought that day was, even Andrew.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

Huh, that's a good point =/ Spike was a hero...I just never saw it that way before.

Woah, I actually cried when I read what you to said about Anya, well, got tears to my eyes at least. It makes so much sense but...it's not a nice thought, Anya rocks :p

[Tomp]

For me, this was the best way Anya could have left.

[GATEGOD]

For me, this was the best way Anya could have left.

lol I would have preferred her leaving alive :D but I guess it's better then running :cry:

[Kimz]

i think personally it was nice to see some of the previous bad guys get some praise and be heroes :)

spike obviously (and his return in angel, doesnt make him any less of hero, i dont think)

anya - ex demon, came through as a hero

and sorta in a way... andrew (ok he wasnt mega evil lol) but stepping in and actually lending a hand, helping to fight etc...and i guess it even continues when hes working alongside giles in angel to bring together the slayers.

x

[Darling]

They´re both heroes... agree.

But I think they were pretty evil killing Anya that pointless way.. she was a great character, she was there by choice, she had that conversation with Andrew about being human.... And in the end her death was about 2 second on screen, I almost didnt see it, then Xander doenst find her... At least a good bye would be good...
I didn´t like it, Joss was evil..

[Fake Shemp]

both heroes, and im glad anya died. harsh? nope? she metaphorically died back in Selfless, and is way past life expectansy anywhos. Her character had already arced before the end, but it was nice for them to get in her love of humans by the end, so it wasnt like she wasnt doing anything the whole season.

andrews lie to xander was what made him perfect imo, he did end up a true storyteller and a hero for protecting xanders memory of anya and anyas death.

remember i love anya so i dont mean any of this in a hating anya way. her death was not a pointless death at the end for no reason imo.

[atticus]

I think both are equal, but i understand why opinions differ. Spike did a lot more damage than Anya, but Anya was a human, she didn't have the advantage of super strength. And as for Anya's death meaning nothing, I think that will be decided by what Andrew becomes, i hope he becomes a great character in the Buffy universe, and make a difference. I know that he made up the story, that she died saving his life, but she really did, he just didn't see it. I've watched that scene so many times. A bringer is about to knife Andrew, cut to Anya stabbing a villain of camera, and then she dies, next time we see Andrew, he's alive. I just know she killed that bringer, and saved his life. Go Anya. Do her proud Andrew.

[fly on the wall]

I don't want to pick one over the other, because I think they were both pretty damn heroic.
Still, let's look at their positions. Spike was in love with Buffy. He wasn't going to not help her, let her die, etc. But Anya...I mean, she could have used the "Xander left me!" as an excuse and left. Nobody would have been surprised. But she didn't. She didn't always get along with these people, Xander had hurt her terribly, but she was willing to die beside them, fighting.
I guess I'm leaning a little towards Anya.

[Cangel]

Everyone in that fight was a hero! Just for actually showing up, willingly taking the risk of maybe not coming out alive.
Yet Anya is a special case still. She was one of the few who actually had the choice of staying or leaving. Buffy and Faith pretty much had to stay, slayer duty and everything, same goes for the potentials. The rest of the Scoobies was more or less also bound there because of Buffy (even though they had a choice, like Dawn, but yet the fact that they were close to Buffy kept them there), Andrew might have been able to leave but was officially a hostage...you see where I'm going with this.
This started already when she became human again (when everyone already knew something evil was coming, bad time to be fighting on the side of the good), but same goes for later. I especially remember her little hospital speech. She could've run, but she decided to stay.

[itsxpaperdoll]

They were both heroes, they really are. And I do agree with FOTW that Anya had more reasons to not take part in the fight, which makes her in a way much more of a hero. But consider Spike here for a second: He knew he was going to die, when the lights were coming all out of his body but he didn't run. He could have, because the cave was already starting to fall apart. He could have taken the chance that the Hellmouth almost completely collapsed and save his ass. But instead he stayed to make sure there would be nothing left and die while doing it. That's also pretty heroic. But I don't know if it makes him more of a hero than Anya. IMO, they were both great (although there's only one of them I would like to cover in chocolate)

[scobro]

pffft. I just dont see how Spike did anything heroic. He just stood there and let the little trinket do all the work. He had nothing to lose, really, because Buffy already said (paraphrasing) their time together meant nothing. Once the world was safe he knew Buffy would have went on to bigger better things and left him behind anyway. Just as she cast Angel away when he came back to help. Explain how Spike was heroic, someone, please.

[itsxpaperdoll]

That's a point but come on, even if he would have lost Buffy anyway, he could have still saved his ass and run, start a life somewhere else etc. But he didn't do that, he chose to die so the people he loved (Buffy, but I guess also Dawn and the rest) would be safe. So everyone living in or around Sunnydale would be save. If didn't care, and ran, he would be lame and cowardish. Instead he saved the world, even though the girl he did it for didnt really love him (or maybe she did, who knows ^^) That's very hero-like, imo

[scobro]

even if he would have lost Buffy anyway, he could have still saved his ass and run, start a life somewhere else etc. But he didn't do that, he chose to die so the people he loved (Buffy, but I guess also Dawn and the rest) would be safe.
That's crap.. throughout the ENTIRE season he was either begging Buffy to kill him, draping himself from a cross, or doing something that could end his (anti)-life whenever Buffy spurned him.

He couldnt go start a life somewhere else; if he didnt get Buffy he wanted to die. He didnt run because he was (blank)whupped and couldnt stand the thought of a life without her. He didnt 'save the world' to be heroic, he did it to save himself from his grief.

[Ellyce]

I don't really get why some people say that Spike wasn't heroic because he just stood there and let the amulet do it's magic. Two points I want to make. Firstly, if Spike HAD known that he was going to give himself up, it doesn't make him any less of a hero. And if he hadn't known, it just makes it heroic as well. Anya and Spike, and everyone in the final fight, actually, was a hero. By giving himself up to save the world Spike completed his hero's journey and while his return to Angel seemed to have cheapend his sacrifice at first, it wasn't his fault that he was brought back.

[scobro]

Just depends on how you view it; I see it as his wanting to escape, as would be par with his character, and you (and others) see it as wanting to be a hero. His actions during one season of Angel proved to be more 'heroic' than his actions on Buffy.

[Ellyce]

Just depends on how you view it; I see it as his wanting to escape, as would be par with his character, and you (and others) see it as wanting to be a hero. His actions during one season of Angel proved to be more 'heroic' than his actions on Buffy.

Someone (Drew Z. Greenberg, I believe) said that season 7 for Spike was all about his hero's journey.

[scobro]

Someone (Drew Z. Greenberg, I believe) said that season 7 for Spike was all about his hero's journey.
So? what does that matter to me? I dont need to be spoon-fed (no offense to the member of the same name!) what I am supposed to see and feel. I asked how YOU can explain it as being heroic, not how Drew explained it. I just fail to see heroism in his actions.

[Ellyce]

That could be true, but I think that the writers understand the characters the best.

[scobro]

That could be true, but I think that the writers understand the characters the best.
mmm.. and I am sure news reporters understand the news the best.

[Ellyce]

Well, it's different. Think about it. It's like saying that Joss doesn't understand his characters best at all. There aren't 50856856 writers for Buffy, there's a limited number, and I think everyone that was on the show and wrote and worked there really understood the characters best. Also, since the writers always sat down and talked about stuff, this is definitely something that they would've talked about, and probably why they said that in the overview.

[scobro]

Well, it's different. Think about it. It's like saying that Joss doesn't understand his characters best at all. There aren't 50856856 writers for Buffy, there's a limited number, and I think everyone that was on the show and wrote and worked there really understood the characters best. Also, since the writers always sat down and talked about stuff, this is definitely something that they would've talked about, and probably why they said that in the overview.

But it's not about that; it is about how you interpret it. Just like when looking at a piece of art. Does it really matter what the artist had in mind when he composed it? No. It matters the reaction it makes within you. It can be a somber piece yet, uplifting to you, that doesnt negate it's worth in your eyes does it? Because the artist 'meant' it to be somber?

[Ellyce]

It's true that we're free to interpret it however we like it, however, if the writers or Joss said it, it makes it more reasonable and confirms your thoughts about it. (Well, for me, anyway). But to each his/her own, I suppose.

[fly on the wall]

^ News reporters don't invent the news, though.

While I agree that writers probably know the characters best, it's equally true that the characters and the entire story are up to the viewers' interpretation. So if someone thinks Spike isn't a hero, it means it's just as valid and true as someone's opinion that he is one.

Personally, I think Spike is a hero. He could have just killed himself, had he wanted an escape that badly. It wouldn't have been hard, a simple walk through the park at noontime would have done it. Sure, he just slipped on an amulet and let it do its work...but being burned up does sound extremely painful. He didn't know what exactly would happen, yet he put it on anyway. He sacrificed himself to save the world. That sounds like a pretty elaborate way to *just escape*...I don't see how this act can't be considered heroic.

[scobro]

^ News reporters don't invent the news, though.
But they do put their own slant on the characters. Just as the other writers put their own slant on characters. Same difference (sorta kinda almost)

[fly on the wall]

^ Creating a story isn't the same thing as reporting about one. Sure, newscasters put a slant on whatever they're reporting...they don't INVENT whatever they're reporting.
But anyways, that's not the point, as I was mostly agreeing with you.

[Airam]

They were both heroes. They both chose their souls. They both fought even though they knew what they risked. They both died trying. Heroes.

I think they were equally heroic. The fact that Spike came back doesn't lessen his sacrifice. I mean, is Buffy's sacrifice at the end of season 5 any less heroic because her friends ripped her out of Heaven? I don't think so. He didn't *know* he'd come back. For that matter, we don't *know* for sure that Anya will never come back, either. Everyone who fought was a hero. Those who made the ultimate sacrifice, well, I think their actions speak for themselves.



Exactly. Also want to add that Spike didn't just stand there wearing the amulet and let things happen. The amulet did its part yes, but Spike finished it. Spike did not have to stay and close the hellmouth. As soon as the amulet worked its mojo and blasted those rays that instantly killed all the ubervamps, that was enough to end the fight at hand, he could have gone up those stairs with Buffy and not died. He chose to stay behind and "finish it."

But yeah, Anya, just as much the hero that Spike was during that fight, for all the reasons already stated.

[sosa lola]

To be honest, everybody was a hero in Chosen... except the bad guys. LOL No one was less of a hero than the other.

[pernilleborup]

^I agree.... everyone had their heroic moment in Chosen.
Willow, Faith, Dawn, Xander, Giles, Wood, Buffy, Spike, Anya, and so on.
They were all brave, but Anya and Spike died along with some newmade slayers.

[Spuffy78]

Anya, as a hero kinda developed later on though the same with Spike even before he got his soul.
In SE3 she didn't runoff she stayed with Xander and in S5 she helped fight Glory then died fighting in S7. It showed her progression as a character and how what she did was heroic.

Spike, act was more heroic. Spike stayed there like Airam said. He like Buffy gave up his life to save the world.

[DrusillaRox]

I found spike stupid, he coulda gotten outta there easily

[sosa lola]

In SE3 she didn't runoff she stayed with Xander.

Actually she did run away in S3. She just went to Xander to convince him to run away with her. Xander, being the loyal friend, rejected her offer and decided to stay and fight with his friends.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Just depends on how you view it; I see it as his wanting to escape, as would be par with his character, and you (and others) see it as wanting to be a hero. His actions during one season of Angel proved to be more 'heroic' than his actions on Buffy.

The ONLY bit of intelligence Buffy and Co. have is that the Amulet MIGHT help in the fight and it MUST be worn by a Champion.
At what stage does that make Spike think 'ahoy hoy, heres me chance to run and hide like a good lil chimney sweep'?
This is his ultimate moment of redemption. He is fighting the fight, no idea what he has to do but when it becomes clear he doesn't think 'Ohh, right, heres my out' no, he realises that he has to do this to save the world.
If you see anything less than heroism, I feel sad for you because obviously you've missed the point entirely and there is no way any decent argument will convince you otherwise.
This was Spikes ultimate heroic sacrifice, one that is brutally taken away from him by a silly initial storyline in Angel.

So? what does that matter to me? I dont need to be spoon-fed (no offense to the member of the same name!) what I am supposed to see and feel. I asked how YOU can explain it as being heroic, not how Drew explained it. I just fail to see heroism in his actions.

While you 'obviously' don't need things to be spoon-fed to you, you cannot so easily dismiss the 'artists' interpretations because they conflict with your own.

On the contrary, you may see something else BUT that does not negate the message that was meant to be there. To totally dismiss that devalues the point being made and makes the whole thing pointless.

mmm.. and I am sure news reporters understand the news the best.

This is absolutely THE most absurd comparison I have ever seen on these boards.

There is no similarity between News Reporters taking a piece of news and writing an article on it while a writer takes a work of fiction and evolves that piece of fiction to create a story.

When there is a piece of News there are generally ways to verify the authenticity of the piece which gives us the power to form a proper opinion.
When we are talking about a work of FICTION, all we have is the writers versions and the intent.

You cannot equate the 2 as the same because they are different.

Had you used your artists and artwork metaphor you MIGHT have had a leg to stand on, but this comment is completely pointless.

[Spuffy78]

I found spike stupid, he coulda gotten outta there easily

It would've been stupid if he had left.

With Angel bringing the amlet it wouldn't have made sense if Spike had just run off and left.

[Veyron]

In my humble opinion both Spike and Anya were heroes. As has been previously mentioned in this thread - they knew the risks yet went anyway. All of the people knew what the risks where that day - they knew that some of them would die and accepted that 100%.

The potentials, Anya and Spike were all heroic in their own way. The potentials because even though they were scared and felt under powered prior to Willow casting her spell knew the significance of what they were doing that day.

Anya - she had had plenty of chances to leave Sunnydale and didn't. Again, she knew there was a huge risk that she'd not survive and if it hadn't of been for one of the Big Bad's minions creeping up behind her she'd of probably survived too - again, she knew the significance of the day and although she was a demon she was fighting for the Human Race - not because she had to, but because she wanted to and for her death to be pointless as Joss put it, no, I don't think it was pointless. It would have been rather silly had everyone survived the fight - people die in wars each and every day - they make the ultimate sacrifice and they do it willingly.

Spike - again it's been mentioned previously - someone had to wear the medallion and as Angel wasn't there to do it, Spike was the obvious choice - no-one else could have worn it with the possible exception of Buffy. I think that he knew from the start of the fight that he wasn't going to make it out in one piece and when the shaft of light hits him and he says 'Oh bugger!' I think he knew then that his card had been marked and he wasn't leaving. He then had no choice but to accept his fate and in the end he almost enjoyed it (I think) - 'I want to see how this ends' he says seconds before he burns up - again - he sacrificed himself to make sure the job got done and the Big Bad was driven back into it's hole.

As a side point - when Buffy and Spike were holding hands and he tells her to leave after she tells him that she loves him, Spike could have left then - the damage had been done - the cavern and indeed the whole of Sunnydale was about the become a huge crater in the desert no matter whether he'd stayed or not.

My question here though is would Spike have been able to make it to the safety of the bus? Or was there another way he could have escaped with his undead life intact? We all know it was broad daylight when the Scoobies, Faith et all made their escape - if Spike had left either with Buffy or just seconds behind her where would he have gone?

My answer to my own last question is no-where - either way he was going to die, but I'm interested in hearing your theories on this subject if you'd care to reply of course.

[Ellyce]

I found spike stupid, he coulda gotten outta there easily

Yeah, well instead he decided to give up his life and save the world. How is that stupid? I bet that if he had run out, you might be calling him a coward.

[Veyron]

And run to where Dru? It was broad day light and if you've seen Chosen then you know all that was left of Sunnydale was a huge hole in the ground.

Where could have he ran to?

[pernilleborup]

Anya got brave in the end!

RESPECT

[Fake Shemp]

she did, she wasnt there for Xander, she didnt fight by his side... she really did care and i think wanted to go out in the fight, but sub consciously.

i think Andrew was amazing because he had took it as a given that he would die, and is astonished that he didnt.

[pernilleborup]

Yup... But also admirering that he still fought. He could have ran like a chicken, but he stayed, with the thought that he wouldn't make it anyway

[Fake Shemp]

oh yeah there was never a run away option with him, and i never thought he would, he was very honourable and showed us again, like with Xander, you can be normal and a hero.

[pernilleborup]

Yeah... I mean, I think he had the chance to get away, they couldn't use him much after Storyteller. But he wanted to stay. He wanted to help. GO ANDREW!

Anyway....Back to topic ;)

[Ellyce]

I still think that both of them are heroes. (:

[sosa lola]

i think Andrew was amazing because he had took it as a given that he would die, and is astonished that he didnt.

Which brings me to my point: Everybody who sided with Buffy and went fighting in Chosen was a hero. Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles, Spike, Anya, Dawn, Andrew, Wood, Faith and the potentials. All are heroes.

[hannahfngrl26]

To reiterate they were both heros yada yada. I think for Anya what really made it for me was the conversation she had with Andrew the night before when they are getting supplies at the hospital. I always loved that scene and then the wheel chair fight. So good.