Smashed

[Happy57]

In this episode we see Buffy and Spike coming together,afther a bad beating up each other, they finally have sex Buffy wearing a long leather skirt .

No details please there are younsters on this board, but a long leather skirt well really that's not the most easy thing to wear for this scene.
What do you think?

[white avenger]

It might not have been easy to wear, but Buffy's usual jeans would've made the conclusion impossible, plus it served an equally important function in "Wrecked" by providing Buffy with an appropriate cover to clutch to herself for the "When did the building fall down" scene. That long leather skirt was as necessary to the action as Spike's ability to hit Buffy or her long hidden desire for him.

[palabravampiress]

While I do agree that a skirt was necessary for the scene, I'd like to talk about something other than Buffy's choice of clothing.

Can we talk about the dialogue for a second? This might get long, so please bear with me. I just rewatched Smashed and, I gotta say, I found the conversation and actions/reactions during the lead-in to sex very interesting. The first time I watched this ep, the writers had me believing his motivation was to kill Buffy. I was along for the ride. The sex came as a pleasant surprise. Upon this second viewing, though, the lead-in leads me to believe that Buffy and Spike are actually talking about the sexual tension that exists between them -- like there was an unspoken rule that she would never consider him when he was "toothless" and "impotent," but that being able to bring the big bad back into the game makes him somehow worthy again.

Take, for instance the opening dialogue:

BUFFY: What are you gonna do, walk behind me to death?
SPIKE: I'm just saying things might be a little different.

Spike walks around in front of her again. They stop walking.

SPIKE: You oughta be careful.
BUFFY: (shakes head) Enough.

She moves to walk around him, but he shifts to block her path.

BUFFY: (small smile) Get out of my way.
SPIKE: Or what?

After getting her dig in over his vamp impotence, he challenges her again. At first, she thinks its just more teasing. But when he challenges her by getting into her space, she smiles. He seems nervous and generally thrilled, too. It's very flirty. When they fight, it's like they're playing. In the opening to the next act, Buffy is still thrown. There's an opening, but Spike doesn't take it. Instead, he gets in her face and gives her this excited, I'm-trying-to-hold-back-my-grin look.

During the subsequent exchange, he hits her a few times, but he's obviously holding back, waiting for her to join in. And he retains the cute grin thing. When I first saw this episode, I thought it was threatening, but now, I refuse to call it anything other than cute. His body language, his facial expressions, his dialogue... everything is saying "I'm back! Now come play (or maybe "dance" would be a more appropriate word) with me!" Her response is different. She keeps holding back and saying "you're wrong." The obvious meaning is that what he's saying -- that she came back wrong -- is wrong. The subtext, however, fairly well screams what she'll spend the entire next season saying: he's wrong (for her because she's the slayer). He's the wrong thing for her to do, but she wants to anyway.

During the rest of the scene, their dialogue sort of foreshadows their entire relationship dynamic. Buffy tries to talk herself out of it -- and Spike's enjoying the verbal and physical sparring -- but it seems she can't. Instead, she initiates the start of their sexual relationship. She kisses him. He doesn't kiss her. They don't kiss each other. It's very much Buffy who starts things. He's even surprised. Then, as if we had any doubt about who initiates what, Buffy's the one who goes for his zipper. He seems surprised about that one, too, but he goes with it (who wouldn't?). It's like he expected to have to do a lot more convincing, but all Buffy really needed to convince her was for him to get his fangs back.

The first time I saw this episode, I was going purely on surface level stuff. I was like "he wants to kill her." Upon rewatching, though, I see that now that Spike's chip no longer functions on Buffy, it's like we finally get to see them "dance." He's not trying to kill her at all. And she's not trying to kill him. They're just playing. They're having fun with one another. And that makes it fun to watch, too.

So, yeah... I missed a whole lot of subtext the first time around. The second time, though, really had me fascinated. Those scenes were amazingly well written, well choreographed, and well acted!

Did anyone else agree? And, you know, see all this in the first viewing (unlike Palabra, who seems to be a little slow on the uptake)?

[white avenger]

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here, but the entire Spuffy relationship in Season 6 was based much more on violence than romance, as much as some, myself included, would wish it were not. We believe that Spike loved Buffy, and we HOPE that Buffy is beginning to feel something for him, but the relationship at that time, truth be told, is mostly an exercise in self abuse by the Slayer coupled with the abuse of someone who loved her to the absolute limit of which he was capable.

It wasn't until several issues into Season 7 that any real tender feelings begin to start manifesting themselves in our Slayer, about the time of her "I believe in you," speech. That is one of the few she has expressed anything more than bare acceptance of Spike since the end of Season 5, when she asks him to take care of Dawn if she didn't survive the final battle.

[palabravampiress]

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here, but the entire Spuffy relationship in Season 6 was based much more on violence than romance, as much as some, myself included, would wish it were not. We believe that Spike loved Buffy, and we HOPE that Buffy is beginning to feel something for him, but the relationship at that time, truth be told, is mostly an exercise in self abuse by the Slayer coupled with the abuse of someone who loved her to the absolute limit of which he was capable.

It wasn't until several issues into Season 7 that any real tender feelings begin to start manifesting themselves in our Slayer, about the time of her "I believe in you," speech. That is one of the few she has expressed anything more than bare acceptance of Spike since the end of Season 5, when she asks him to take care of Dawn if she didn't survive the final battle.

Oh, no. I'm not trying to say that their relationship in season 6 is tender or even healthy, let alone based on romance! Not at all.

I'm just saying that their interaction in these scenes foreshadows what's to come. It's like a little mini-Spuffy. Buffy both tries to talk herself out of it, but initiates contact, so we see her being torn. We hear the refrain of "you're wrong." Spike warns her that she should be afraid and that he's "treading on the dark side." He was constantly holding back, which I thought significant because of what happens later, when he stops holding back. Etc. Etc. I'm not saying it's healthy. I'm just saying that as a piece of TV, it's well written, acted, shot, choreographed, and everything else. It definitely fits the Spuffy dynamic.

What I thought was cute was just the way there was a sort of twisted sort of joy in the realization that she didn't have to hold back with him anymore (because of the chip) and he didn't have to hold back with her (also because of the chip). The gloves were off, and I kind of liked seeing them both relish it. They'd both been so depressed... it was nice seeing someone relish anything, even if only for a few minutes. She was glad to be feeling something, anything at all. He was like a puppy with a new toy. I guess I thought the acting was cute. That initial exhilaration you feel when you realize that you're finally on the same page with someone -- even and possibly especially if it's a forbidden and wrong sort of page -- comes through in their acting. We've all been there. It is sort of cute. Or maybe I'm just deranged. lol.

[white avenger]

The fight was very well choreographed, highlighting both actors' impressive martial arts skills (with the help of only a minimum of stunt men involved), and it certainly did serve as a preview of their sexual relationship in season 6. Buffy rapes Spike in "Smashed" (okay, that's an exaggeration, but not much of one) and Spike almost returns the favor in "Seeing Red." And, yes, I will agree that Buffy and Spike both were exhilarated by the fight. Both are warriors, and it is only natural. I can even comfortably agree with most of what you say. I just find the adjective "cute" describing a man hitting an obviously emotionally stressed woman less than tasteful.

And, Miss K, I have only one thing to say concerning your accusations: "Remember the Alamo,"

[Keanoite]

Buffy rapes Spike in "Smashed" (okay, that's an exaggeration, but not much of one) and Spike almost returns the favor in "Seeing Red."

WA, Darlin I love ya but I don't think it is possible for me to disagree more with that statement. Buffy DID NOT rape Spike he was more than happy to take part in the proceedings...all night long! What happened between them in Smashed is in no way similar to what Spike tried to do in Seeing Red.

[Blondie Bear]

^ I agree; she may have been ultra aggressive, but that's not the same thing as rape. He wanted it, even if he wasn't expecting it.

[palabravampiress]

Buffy rapes Spike in "Smashed" (okay, that's an exaggeration, but not much of one) and Spike almost returns the favor in "Seeing Red."

I'm gonna go with the majority opinion here and say I don't think "rape" is the way to describe that at all. There's a much better case to be made for that in the episode in which he kicks her out of the crypt, but not in this episode.


I just find the adjective "cute" describing a man hitting an obviously emotionally stressed woman less than tasteful.

Yeah, "cute" may not have been the right word. I'm sort of struggling to find the right one, but I agree that "cute" might not accurately describe fisticuffs.

As far as the "man hitting an obviously emotionally stressed woman" part goes, though, I don't really mind it. I mean, Buffy was the first one to punch. Spike didn't lay a finger on her until she laid down the gauntlet by striking first. Plus, they're super heroes! They're not like a normal man and a normal woman. Spike was clearly holding back. And even if he hadn't been, she's a vampire slayer. She's a lot stronger and sturdier than he is. I'm not so much in favor of a lot of the violence that occurs over the course of their relationship. Most of that consists of her beating him up and him liking (or at least allowing) it, none of which is healthy. But what we saw in Smashed wasn't on the same level. They weren't trying to hurt each other, not really. They were enjoying the fight. I think there is some leeway to be given for that sort of thing when both of the participants are super strong, supernatural creatures. lol. It's like Xena and Ares. Nobody ever complained when Xena and Ares knocked each other all over Greece. Same concept. In the Buffyverse, the normal fighting rules don't apply.

[white avenger]

To all concerned--I agree, the term "raped" wasn't the word that I was looking for. "Attacked" would probably have been more appropriate, and I'm not really happy with it either. "Forcibly seduced with the co-operation of the seducee (?). What I'm trying to say is that Spike in "Seeing Red" was trying to re-create the events of "Smashed" in an extremely inappropriate manner...

Look, I know what I'm trying to say, it's just not reaching this keyboard. Spike was trying to recreate the conditions of "Smashed" in "Seeing Red" in the hope that the results would be the same. Buffy had apparently always said "no," and "stop" or something so close to it as to give Spike the impression that for her, with him, "no" meant "no, but I could be persuaded." (That's still not what I'm trying to say, but it's closer. Just be aware ladies, AND gentlemen, that to me, when a lady says "No," the subject IS NOT open for discussion, and what the lady is or is not wearing, said or did not say only a moment before, or has been "acting" or "asking for" in no way enters into the consideration. The word "no" is one of those words that has only one definition, PERIOD. Is that part clear?) I've made a mess of this post, so I'm just gonna stop now an let someone more articulate have a chance.

[Tranquillity]

It wasn't until several issues into Season 7 that any real tender feelings begin to start manifesting themselves in our Slayer, about the time of her "I believe in you," speech. That is one of the few she has expressed anything more than bare acceptance of Spike since the end of Season 5, when she asks him to take care of Dawn if she didn't survive the final battle.

See, i don't think that's quite right. In the first few episodes of season six - from when she returns until the kiss in Once More With Feeling - Buffy treats Spike really well. They have a real friendship developing. She hanging out with him, telling him secrets, asking his advice, needing his help, and even go on a 'date', of sorts and he is the only person she can stand to be around. OMWF indicates that her visits to Spike are as routine as the setting sun. And then they kiss and Buffy is not happy with herself - angry with herself, and that's when she starts being short with Spike - not wanting to talk to him in Tabula Rasa and Smashed, telling him he's a thing and all that. she's taking her anger at herself for kissing him out on him - she's trying to convince herself that he's revolting and disgusting and he's a big temptation she's trying to stay away from. Feelings are already bubbling under the surface, feelings that scare her into acting the way she does. I certainly agree though that their season seven relationship is where all the magic is, but i don't see season six as all bad either.

I get what you're saying Para, i remember thinking that the sex scene and the lead up to it was pretty twisted when i first watched it - boys hitting girls is not something that we are accoustomed to find appealing but these two are super-powered, the normal rules don't apply - and yeah, they finally get to 'dance' after all these years. I find it a really powerful scene.

[LadyLavinia]

Buffy rapes Spike in "Smashed" (okay, that's an exaggeration, but not much of one) and Spike almost returns the favor in "Seeing Red."

I don't think that is quite true. I don't believe that Buffy had raped Spike in "Smashed". I do believe that she almost raped him in "Gone" . . . when she was invisible. When she visited his crypt in that particular episode, she did set about sexually assaulting him and Spike did resist . . . until he realized who she was.

[SpikedBuffy]

I agree... this particular sexual exploit in Smashed is not considered rape. From the beginning of season five on Spike is more than willing to be with Buffy in any way possible.

I always liked this scene. Granted, I'm a huge Spuffy supporter, but I was totally shocked that Buffy took it that far. I remember watching it and thinking, oh yeah, they're kissing, kissing, whoa...wait, did she just do what I think she did? :)

I never did really look that much into their interaction beyond a typical Buffy and Spike fight (I mean, they have them all the time), so I haven't noticed what you've seen palabra.

[Senior Watcher]

i was shocked by this episode. i knew that some sort of 'threshold' was approaching between buffy and spike, but them making woopy took me by surprise.

after the episode was over AND after i had a chance to digest what happened, i came to the conclusion that it was a great episode and the writers did a great job.

this episode set the stage for the rest of the seasons in the spuffy saga.