The First: More than 1?

[Buffylover]

Can the first be more than one dead person at a time?

[The Chosen]

Nope! It shouldn't be able to anyway.

- TC

[VisionGuy]

I think it can be. In Conversations with Dead People it was able to be Joyce and Cassie at the same time.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Yea...i was going to say the same thing. SO obviously it can. And wasnt the First working with Caleb in England as well while it was also in Sunndydale.

[Kemy]

Actually it can't and wasn't.

It controlled Spike a few days before to turn that guy into a Vampire, the one that kept Buffy busy.

It triggered Spike earlier in the evening, he goes out and eventually bites that women.

It sends a Demon to prevent Joyce from manifesting to Dawn.

It appears personally to Willow. Hence the emphasis on the "me" part.

[TabulaRasa]

Actually it can't and wasn't.

It controlled Spike a few days before to turn that guy into a Vampire, the one that kept Buffy busy.

It triggered Spike earlier in the evening, he goes out and eventually bites that women.

It sends a Demon to prevent Joyce from manifesting to Dawn.

It appears personally to Willow. Hence the emphasis on the "me" part.

Right, I was sure it couldn't but didn't want to say no at first incase I was wrong, that just gets you into a whole mess of trouble around here, teehee. :)

[ILLYRIAN]

Wasn't the name of the episode, Conversations with Dead People ?
That's a lot of plurals there. If the first was only able to be one dead person at a time then the episode should be.....A Conversation With A Dead Person.

[Blondie Bear]

I thought someone on another thread said Joss said Joyce WAS the First? That the demon thing was just to confuse Dawn?

[Kemy]

Then why did it tell Dawn the truth? tell her something that prepared her for Buffy's attempt to remove her from the battle in the last two episodes.

Theres every chance that Demon would simply have killed Dawn and there are a few times when it failed narrowly from doing so, that would have been contrary to the First's wishes if it wanted her alive and turned against Buffy.

If it was the First I believe we're seeing something called "instancing" when the First from two different moments of its own existence appears to two different people at the same time.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Then why did it tell Dawn the truth? tell her something that prepared her for Buffy's attempt to remove her from the battle in the last two episodes.

Theres every chance that Demon would simply have killed Dawn and there are a few times when it failed narrowly from doing so, that would have been contrary to the First's wishes if it wanted her alive and turned against Buffy.

If it was the First I believe we're seeing something called "instancing" when the First from two different moments of its own existence appears to two different people at the same time.

This episode is interesting in that it has a time stamp, indicating all events are happening at the same time.

Willow talked with the First.
Dawn talked with The First - there are numerous links to confirmation that Joss has Joyce as the First.
Buffy talks with Vampire - all these conversations are with people who have died, NOT just one person so that answers your question Illyrian if the First could only be one person at a time(The Vamp was not the First) however I believe that the First has the ability to manifest as more than one person at a time.

What the First did, when telling Dawn the truth, was to try and take the things Buffy cared about away from her. If Dawn believed that was her mother warning her that Buffy would not choose her, it would help break Buffy away from the group.

Incidently, that worked ONLY the First didn't count on losing it's hold over Spike and he being the one that draws the down and out Buffy back into the fight stronger than before.

[ILLYRIAN]

Something about the First, it told the truth doesn't mean it cannot tell a lie if it wants to.

and

bored of the dead my post states 'conversations with dead people' infers the plural.
So I don't believe the first could only be one dead person at a time.
I didn't ask a question.

[TabulaRasa]

Wasn't the name of the episode, Conversations with Dead People ?
That's a lot of plurals there. If the first was only able to be one dead person at a time then the episode should be.....A Conversation With A Dead Person.

Conversations with dead people...Buffy, Dawn, Willow...all spoke to dead people. Therefore not singular. BUffy spoke to Holden. Who was not 'the first' so there's one. Another is Dawn, her mom and the sort of conversation she had with the demon, 2 ish, and then Willow with the first. 3...plural.
Whether we are still to believe Dawn was speaking to the first well, that's up to you, but since Buffy spoke to holden it is again..not singular.
:)

[GATEGOD]

Conversations with dead people...Buffy, Dawn, Willow...all spoke to dead people. Therefore not singular.

Buffy I thought talked with a vampire, Willow to the first, and Dawn to some weird ghost that could or could not be both her mother and the first. Can it be more then one dead person at once? idk

[TabulaRasa]

What I was arguing was that Holden was 'dead' therefore it can't be singular. Make sense? Cause there was Holden and the first. Even if we are to assume that Dawn was talking to the first and Willow was also, both at the same time, 2 is still not singular. Therefore...dead 'people.'
I would assume it could being that it's so powerful, but also think it can't well because I make things difficult.

[Black Eye Guy]

It was stated that Joyce was definetly the first.

Willow could have talked to the first, at the same time buffy was fighting the vamp. Then when it's finnished with Willow, as Willow is getting back to the house it goes to dawn. And like someone else said it triggered spike earlier?

[VisionGuy]

Isn't The First an omnipresent force? It can be anywhere it wants to be. So I'd think it can be at multiple places at once. While all this was going down in Sunnydale, The First could have been in Africa or Japan doing something else at the same time.

[ILLYRIAN]

VisionGuy I agree with you.
I saw the First as the serials name for evil. Evil is pretty much a worldwide phenomena.

[SpikedBuffy]

Isn't The First an omnipresent force? It can be anywhere it wants to be. So I'd think it can be at multiple places at once. While all this was going down in Sunnydale, The First could have been in Africa or Japan doing something else at the same time.


I was just getting ready to post something like this... the First just exists everywhere, but I didn't have a good work for it. I'd say omnipresent sums it up rather nicely!


Remember, later in the seasons, the First describes itself as evil (being in the rich and young children, etc) as it's talking to Caleb, which points to the theory that it is in many places at once, and can probably take on many forms at once.

[Jules]

Aww, I always got the impression that Joyce was Joyce in this episode and not a manipulation of the First. I thought the First was just speaking to Willow.

Now my timescale may be a little off with regards to season 7, and the name of the potential, but when the first was pretending to be that potential was Caleb about?? Wouldn't the first be checking in and out with Caleb as well as pretending to be that potential. Again, I may be wrong but my point is that the first could have been more than one manifestation at a time.

[Cordelia Chase*]

Idk if Caleb was about But the First was being more than one person. The Potentail while taking on the form of someone else in this ep.

[ILLYRIAN]

Jules.
The potential I think your referring to was Bev. Buffy and Xander found her lying dead in the motel room, so the First was her. Caleb was about, I think, but he wasn't part of the scenery at that time. But the bringers were about. The first that Caleb became known of, was when a potential was being chased by the bringers, he gave her a lift and a get into hospital pass, I think that was when Willow and Faith were coming back from LA.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Jules.
The potential I think your referring to was Bev. Buffy and Xander found her lying dead in the motel room, so the First was her. Caleb was about, I think, but he wasn't part of the scenery at that time. But the bringers were about. The first that Caleb became known of, was when a potential was being chased by the bringers, he gave her a lift and a get into hospital pass, I think that was when Willow and Faith were coming back from LA.

I think actually what Jules is suggesting is that WHILE the First was causing havoc in Sunnydale and pretending to be Potentials and Vampires and mothers, it must also have been in contact with Caleb who we know was working for The First long before his first appearance.

If I'm correct, Jules, you meant that The First was checking in with Caleb while in the form of the dead potential as further proof that the First could be in more than one place at a time.

FYI - I agree

[Wicked]

I have a question. Why would you think it couldn't be more than one person? Its never something Ive thought about cos I just assumed it could. Its the first evil. It can probably do anything it wants. Its not a physical being so the usual rules wouldnt apply.

Also, who says evil cant tell the truth? In fact did Dawn not ask that at one point. If the truth was more likely to hurt, of course it wouldnt lie. Always go with the pain. The truth hurts.

And i never believed Joyce was ever a part of anything. I always just assumed it was the First messing with her.

[LadyLavinia]

Can the first be more than one dead person at a time?

Sure. Why not? It is the spirit of evil itself.

[Werewolf]

i thought the first could be at two(or more) places at once but it was still one being.
since it's supposed to be so evil and all..