Would This Be Illegal?

[The Chosen]

This is directly related to the Season 8 comics so I'm posting this here...

Would it be illegal to make a "transcript" of what was happening on the page? Like turn it into script format or something? It'd be handy for those fans that can't get their hands on Buffy season 8 or aren't big enough comic people to go out and buy it.

- TC

[Buffy Summers]

An excellent question that I don't know the answer to. My guess would be the writers would say that yes, that's illegal. But I think you might be okay posting summaries? Not really sure though.

:)

[The Chosen]

That's what I was thinking...except then why would it be okay for people to transcribe the TV show?

A never ending pit of question marks...

[white avenger]

I can't see how it would be any more illegal than fan fiction, and as long as you include a disclaimer stating that it all belongs to Whedon and Company, and you don't try to make money off of it in any way. Joss has said frequently said that he encourages fan fiction, and even reads it himself. I would say go for it.

[Keanoite]

It's not really fan fiction though if he is transcribing their material rather than manipulating their characters, but transcripts are available all over the net...Mmmm...


....more than likely you'll end up in the slammer....TC SLAMMER!!!LOMA!!!!

[alexa]

They have transcripts already on some other Buffy forums around the place. I'd say it's probably ok with a disclaimer.. about as much as any of this stuff.

[Evilyn]

I don't think writing a summary would be illegal. I mean, there are summaries for the comics on the websites that sell them. The only reason there isn't more of a summary is because they don't wanna give everything away. But, I'm not a lawyer, so I really dunno what is legal and what ain't!

[Buffy Summers]

I think writing a summary is different from putting them into script form...

[white avenger]

I think we're really talking technicalities here when it isn't necessary, Edgar Rice Burroughs Inc has forced fan fiction featuring Tarzan or any other Burroughs character to be withdrawn from the Net, and I remember reading somewhere that Anita Blake didn't want her characters used. I'm sure there are other writers who see fan fiction or any other use of their creations as an infringement on their copyrights, but the key idea here is that Joss hasn't done anything like that in the past, and most likely won't in the future as long as we don't abuse his generosity by trying to make money off of his creations. I still say go for it. The worst that can happen is that you will get a court order saying that you have to remove your story from public view, and the odds of that happening are only slightly better than being hit by a meteor while taking a bath in your back yard. I still say go for it if you really want to.

[Buffy Summers]

But it's not about using the characters, it's about reprinting the story written by someone else in a similar medium to the one they're trying to sell you...

[white avenger]

If there are that many doubts and reservations, the project should either be undertaken strictly for the writer's experience and amusement and never published in any form or format, or the project dropped altogether. It's obvious what I would do, but ultimately the decision is that of The Chosen.

[ILLYRIAN]

It is a breach of the copyright law, if a holder of the copyright chooses not to prosecute, that is up to them. If in doubt ask the copyright holders, get permission from them in writing, then you are protected from prosecution.

[Allycat]

I think posting entire transcripts of a comic will be seen as copyright infringement. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for transcripts of TV series. You are after all copying something other people own the rights to, which unless you have permission is almost always copyright infringement. The only exception is fair use (wikipedia article) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use).

According to the US Law the four factors to consider (when determining if something is fair use) are:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

Examples of good purposes are criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research. I think everyone will agree that you could easily say transcripts are for any (combination) of these.

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

If something is of substantial public interest it cannot be copyrighted. This basically only applies to non-fiction.

3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

Here's the first real problem. Since a transcript copies the entire comic, there's no way it can be considered fair use.

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Finally, this is even more important than the last item, because this is the factor that companies consider when determining whether to prosecute. The Chosen said that transcripts might be a good option for people who don't want to buy the comics. Obviously, that means a negative effect on the market value of the work.

Now, I'm not a lawyer or anything, so you shouldn't take my word as gospel. But I would suggest that before anyone goes ahead transcribing the comics, they do a little research into intellectual property law, lest their work be for naught.

I think that N4H's Canon Watch thread is a better solution than transcripts.

[nerd4hire]

I think that N4H's Canon Watch thread is a better solution than transcripts.

There is a small problem there.

There have been cases of people cloning Buffy-Boards to make their own sites. Now if you happen to be the person who's put a lot of effort into making a board special it's going to be irritating to see your hard work replicated. It's not really illegal, just irritating. Irritating people can come back, and bite you in the ass.

That particular problem is one easily dealt with by good manners though. If you saw something you liked at a website, and wanted to use it, it would be good manners to contact the administrator, and say "Hey, I like that idea you have where you do such and such. I'm thinking of doing something similar. Would that bother you?" If the person was at all reasonable, something could be worked out.

In that particular case it shouldn't be a problem, because the idea isn't even original to this site. Basically Canon Watch is just a review with photo-clips for illustration of points. That's done all over the internet. (Calling it "Canon Watch" might earn you a scowl though).

As far as that particular thread goes, is it legal? I'd say yes, because it fits the definition of Fair Use.

The easiest way I've found of describing Fair Use is with this YouTube video.

YouTube - A Fair(y) Use Tale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJn_jC4FNDo)

But back to your transcript question. Is it illegal? Hard to say definitively. Nobody's done it, so it would have to be answered in court. My best guess is your chances of winning such a case are slim to none though. You'd have to be rich to afford a good lawyer to even try.

So what would the consequences be, if you did it? My best guess is you wouldn't be sued. I would expect them to ignore it, until a time they saw economic potential in the idea. That's what usually happens. In that case you would most likely be served with a takedown notice. If it came down to that there's 2 ways they might do that. They might contact you directly, or give your ISP a DMCA takedown notice (if you're American). If they wanted to make a point, they could demand you take down all related graphics, and written materials to which they made a claim of copyright ownership.

That idea is non-commercial. I doubt they'd put their full legal weight behind any possible repurcussions. They get a little pissier if you try to make money from something they hold the copyright for. You might want to read the thread linked to below about the guy who was selling T shirts with a reference to Serenity.

The Serenity T Shirt Debate - Buffy-Boards (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=27931)

[Buffy Summers]

Weren't there problems with sites getting shutting down for having transcripts at one point?

And PS, yeah, that's soooo irritating lol, when members copy the site to make their own.

[nerd4hire]

I can't remember anything about transcript sites being shut down, but there did used to be a site that offered original scripts, then Fox wanted to sell such stuff commercially, and that site disappeared as news of the scripts for sale thing appeared.

It was kind of a personal bug, because I was downloading them the day before the site vanished, but I quit early, and said to myself, "ahh, I'll finish this tomorrow".

[Buffy Summers]

Ah I wasn't sure if I remembered that correctly or not.

[Dlou444]

I think the main point would be....would you be profiting from the transcripts?
If not, it wouldn't be different from writing a summary.

No one is going to care or have any sort of legal claim against you...unless you're 1.) claiming it as your own work and/or 2.) making money off of it. If you were simply posting it on your website for random passers by to see and read you're okay. ESPECIALLY if you're not using the art work.

Because, in theory that's not hurting their sales. I know it wouldn't stop ME from buying them. Just like if I had missed an episode of the show and had come in here to ask what happened. Granted, a transcript is more thorough than your average "here's what happened".....but not illegal.

Although, if you profit at ALL, there would be issues.

[Allycat]

I don't think it's necessarily just about you making a profit, but about them losing revenue. There might be people who decide not to buy the comics but rather read the transcripts. If that happens, the owner of the copyright, be it Dark Horse, IDW, or FOX, won't be happy.

[Edmund Blackadder]

The Comic is someones work.
Writing a Transcript so that people who haven't bought it can gain free access is the same as taping a movie at the cinema and passing it on.

Personally this is kind of a moot point though.
Surely if you are that desperate to know what is going on you'll pay the £3.00 per month(or whatever) and if you aren't interested enough to pay that, you can be pretty ok with not having access online.

If these were super expensive comics, I'd be like 'fair game, email it to people and let the revolution begin' but it's not, it's a pretty cheap story that you can buy at any good comic retailer.

I for one would hate the possibility of something being posted here that could end with the closure of this site.

[ILLYRIAN]

As far as I'm aware a copyright is for 70 years, if a copyright owner chooses he/she/they can take it slowly and take all monies you make.
If you are putting their product on your site even if it's not for your profit, it is still a breach of copyright. It is much easier to ask for permission first, rather than face an expensive court case.
Is it ok to take/use some-one else's property ? and then say I wasn't going to sell it ?

[Dlou444]

I know it sounds weird but that is just how it works.

ASSUMING, of course, that DarkHorse/Joss/random other people affiliated with the comics aren't already SELLING transcripts. Which is why transcripts of the show would have been pulled because they have published books of them for people to buy. At which point, handing them away would be breach of copyright.

But, copyright isn't just absolute. A transcript isn't the comic. And, if you think about it, what people USUALLY buy comics for isn't the story...or else there wouldn't be those handy plastic sleeves and variant covers.

You can't profit from another person's work and you can't give away what the other person is selling. My paintings, for instance, since it's what I know.
I can make a painting, but I don't have absolute power. The buyer has some power. I can stop them from popping it into Photoshop and making an animated cartoon for a commercial for their store. I can stop them from painting over my name and putting theirs on and selling it as their own. And I can stop them from making prints and selling them or even giving them away.
I CANNOT stop them from posting it on their website on a page saying, "My Art Collection" even if the file is easy enough for others to download and print out in a full canvas sixed format. I can't stop them from taking a picture and putting it on their desk at work. I can't stop them from taking a picture, making a print and giving it to their Mom. I can't stop them from selling the painting or giving it away, as long as it's still given or sold under my name. I can't stop them from taking a picture with it in the background and having that picture published in Pedaphiles Weekly.

A transcript is different from the comics. And doesn't really cut into their sales...assuming they aren't already SELLING transcripts. In fact, it would be no worse than the THOUSANDS of threads on this very board that give out spoilers. I could easily click on any of the threads for the comics I haven't read and in some cases, know EXACTLY what happened, even the extra busty women in the pictures of the Angel comics.
Unless and until they sell the transcripts, just telling people the info contained in the comics isn't cutting into their profits. Now, if you were SELLING them, you'd be profitting off of someone else's work, which you can't do.

Think of it like someone's song. You buy a CD and you can legally make copies of that song for your iPod, car, a spare CD for your hubby, even post the song to PLAY on your website for people to HEAR. You can't post it up for them to download though and you can't ask people to pay YOU for copies. And you can't take the lyrics and claim their your personal poem. But, you CAN write out the lyrics and post them on your website, because that isn't the format for which the artist is profiting.

The only glitch would be keeping on top of when or if they ever decided to make transcripts and sell them. Which could be tricky because the amount of stuff thrown out there for Buffy and Angel is MIND BOGGLING! The amount of script books at the 2nd hand store the other day was enough to make your head spin. You'd could even be in trouble if at any point they ditched the artwork and just turned it into a novel.
Well, there would be a 2nd glitch in there too. Which would be if you were to post them on a website, for free, but on the same website had scripts of your own that you were selling. Which they could easily say you were using their work to draw customers of your own in. Just like I can't put Donald Duck as my store logo even if it's all my paintings.

[Edmund Blackadder]

A transcript is different from the comics. And doesn't really cut into their sales...assuming they aren't already SELLING transcripts. In fact, it would be no worse than the THOUSANDS of threads on this very board that give out spoilers. I could easily click on any of the threads for the comics I haven't read and in some cases, know EXACTLY what happened, even the extra busty women in the pictures of the Angel comics.
Unless and until they sell the transcripts, just telling people the info contained in the comics isn't cutting into their profits. Now, if you were SELLING them, you'd be profitting off of someone else's work, which you can't do.


See here is the issue.
You can't say they aren't cutting into their sales. By placing a transcript of the story online you are telling enough of the story that could be deemed plausible for people to not need the comic. If people don't need it they are getting the story for free thus not purchasing it.
I for one have not bought the comics, i've thought about it but I'm never near a comic store. It's not a big enough draw for me to go really out of my way BUT if I was in the vicinity of the store, I'd buy. However, if I had the transcripts online then I really wouldn't buy them.

As for comparing them to spoilers, again not quite true. A spoiler gives an outline with some event, the transcript tells the story. You will also have the actions of the pictures detailed in the transcript so there really is a full account of what is happening.

There is a difference evenm between a synopsis and a transcript. The Synopsis does give you the storyline, the key characters and the events/issues, but the transcript gives you every detail, gives you everythings that is particular to the writers.

This definitely goes into the intellectual property issue and is a facet of the continuing writers strike in the states.

Basically, transcripts of comics, as they are written word, should be illegal and as much as it would please people to have them online, well heck it's a few quid a month, go out and buy them!!

[nerd4hire]

I buy them. I also keep a scan of them on my hard drive. They're handy for study. I don't have to risk damaging the original with rereads. If transcripts were available I'd use them too. It would be quicker, if I was looking for some particular point, or quote.

As far as would it cost them sales, I seriously doubt it. In fact, I think what's more likely is people might read the transcripts, and decide to buy the actual comic.

None of that changes this fact though. If you did put transcripts up, and whoever owns them told you to take them down, or face a lawsuit, you'd take them down. It wouldn't be worth a court action.

Come to think of it, who does own the copyright on the comics? When Universal purchased the rights to make Serenity from Fox, they took control of a limited section of the Firefly copyright. At least I think it was limited control.

Edit

Here's my opinion. I can't see the advantage of an established board like BB putting up transcripts. It wouldn't be worth the risk of attracting a legal department's notice to send a takedown notice. On the other hand if I was trying to get a smaller board like TC's going, I'd do it. Then again, that's just me.

[Dlou444]

See here is the issue.
You can't say they aren't cutting into their sales. By placing a transcript of the story online you are telling enough of the story that could be deemed plausible for people to not need the comic. If people don't need it they are getting the story for free thus not purchasing it.
I for one have not bought the comics, i've thought about it but I'm never near a comic store. It's not a big enough draw for me to go really out of my way BUT if I was in the vicinity of the store, I'd buy. However, if I had the transcripts online then I really wouldn't buy them.


And that may be true for some people. Maybe even me...for a while. Eventually though, I'd get the comics just to have them. And, if the story was what people bought comics for...there would be more of an issue. They buy it for the artwork, the variant covers, the sheer fact that it IS a comic book, who drew the pictures, who published it, what kind of condition it's in...etc. I might rather READ a transcript, but it wouldn't stop me from wanting to have the comic...one day.
Just like a transcript isn't the same has owning the DVDs.

Writing a Transcript so that people who haven't bought it can gain free access is the same as taping a movie at the cinema and passing it on. And, technically, it would be like audio taping the movie and passing it on. Could someone kind of know what's going on? Sure. But, would that necessarily stop them from seeing the movie? Maybe, but not the bulk of the world.
The bulk of the world that is BUYING the comics want them.

It's also hard to compare it to a summary. Because there are too many levels to a summary. You have the summary on the back of the book that says, "Buffy's back from the dead...again" and other things, but that tells nothing. Then you have GOOD summaries that would actually tell you what happened in great detail.

In truth, after reading the comics...at least the first 5, I'm not sure I would put a lot of faith in a transcript if I were to just happen upon it. First off, assuming you hadn't read any of the comics, how would you KNOW this was the REAL THING. Second, even if I read the first one and was looking for the next 4 online...Joss is good at leaving things for us to ponder about and see different parts of. (Please refer to the zillions of posts with differing opinions about how or why things happen) I'd be too scared that the person who wrote the transcript was emphasizing parts that THEY found important and leaving out other parts. Which is why I'd want the comic.
There may be a FEW people who might just want to cut to the story and be done with it and wouldn't buy it. But, they may also be the type people who would come here and read the posts or might ask you about the comics, you tell them and they don't buy them. That's a RARE person though.

It's why I don't put a "no right click" on the paintings I list online. The resolution isn't good on them and people could MAYBE print out a half decent copy on an 8x10. But, that doesn't really cut into my sales. Anyone who would settle for an 8x10 printed out on paper isn't really going to be dishing out the big bucks anyway.

It's more about what they'd LEGALLY have rights to. Legally, they can't stop you from passing along knowledge. Just like they can't stop you from telling me what happened on Law and Order last night and they can't stop me from seeing the next 6th Sense and telling you how it ends. They can't stop me from posting it up everywhere either.
They can LEGALLY stop you if they can 1.) PROVE that you're costing them profits or 2.) benefiting from their work.
They do have the right also, to ASK you to take it down. Which would be smart to then take it down because they have the right to then sue you and say, "Lookie, we just put out our own transcripts for sale and they're giving it away for free" and you have to pay them.

As for morally wrong, it would all depend on your motive. If your motive was to make a dent in the comic sales then that would be wrong. But, I can think of logical reasons to do it.
I have A.D.D. and I must admit, the comic format is rough on me. I'm easily distracted by the pretty pictures. In fact, all of them are going to have to be read again at least two more times before I'm sure I can relate the story to people.
My brother, he's colorblind. I showed him one of the comics the other night (because of this thread) and he said he would have given up. He can read the words, sure, but when the colors run together in your head...I can see where you wouldn't get much out of it. It would be easier to just read "Buffy bashed the demon in the head with a big sword" than try to make out what the picture is. (we noticed there is a LOT of red and green in those books which is what he's the worst at seeing.)
My sister is a 36 year old who works in an office. She was saying she couldn't borrow my comic this week, even though work is slow because she can't read comics at work and even if she could, she'd look like a big dork. Although, she COULD read a pile of papers without obviously looking like she's being a slacker. Since she was just planning on taking my comics until an Omibus came out, it would be helpful for her too.

Legally, it would be okay...with the knowledge we have NOW and assuming there are no transcripts to buy floating around out there and you aren't personally making money off of them...and are willing to take them down if and when Dark Horse or the writers ask you to. Morally, you'd just have to have a reason that was more to helpful than "I'm out to keep Joss and Co. from getting money from these books."

I had to look into the whole thing about 6 months ago when we happened upon a woman who was using a picture of one of my paintings as the logo for her eBay store. She didn't own the painting, just had copied it off the internet somewhere. I was able to ask her to take it down or to pay me for the rights to use it. Luckily, she DID take it down. But, I really had no LEGAL action I could take if she hadn't, unless I could prove that 1.) I was losing money off her using it or 2.) she was MAKING money by using it. Sadly, I couldn't prove either. It would be pretty far fetched to go to court and claim her LOGO was the reason that her auctions for slippers were selling. The best that would have happened is that the court would have made her take it down. I couldn't collect any damages. And, it's nearly impossible to prove NOT making money off of something that isn't the same as what you are selling.

[nerd4hire]

Here's something you might want to consider if you ever have to deal with that again Diou. Providing the offender is American you can issue a DMCA takedown notice. In Europe there's something similar called the Eu Copyright Directive.

Question: What are the notice and takedown procedures for web sites?

Answer: In order to have an allegedly infringing web site removed from a service provider's network, or to have access to an allegedly infringing website disabled, the copyright owner must provide notice to the service provider with the following information:

* The name, address, and electronic signature of the complaining party [512(c)(3)(A)(i)]
* The infringing materials and their Internet location [512(c)(3)(A)(ii-iii)], or if the service provider is an "information location tool" such as a search engine, the reference or link to the infringing materials [512(d)(3)].
* Sufficient information to identify the copyrighted works [512(c)(3)(A)(iv)].
* A statement by the owner that it has a good faith belief that there is no legal basis for the use of the materials complained of [512(c)(3)(A)(v)].
* A statement of the accuracy of the notice and, under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on the behalf of the owner [512(c)(3)(A)(vi)].

Once notice is given to the service provider, or in circumstances where the service provider discovers the infringing material itself, it is required to expeditiously remove, or disable access to, the material. The safe harbor provisions do not require the service provider to notify the individual responsible for the allegedly infringing material before it has been removed, but they do require notification after the material is removed.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/faq.cgi#QID130

[The Chosen]

Oh, wow...I think I'll hold off on the transcripts. Lmao!

Or, an alternative: What if I handed them out freely privately? Like it wouldn't be a public thing. I just ask, "Does anyone not want to read the comic but want to understand what's happening?" and to those that would answer yes sent it to them?

[Allycat]

It would still be illegal. The chance that they'd find out and take action would be considerably smaller though.

[Randy Giles]

There are tons of websites on the net devoted to transcribing series. No legal action has been taken against them. The sites clearly state that their purpose is not for profit, yada yada yada, so I don't think networks would bother. It might be different with a TV series, because those are usually used by fans who missed an episode, and broadcast networks rarely show reruns of every episode anymore. And with comics you can easily go buy it at any time.

And if you don't have the money to buy one, just go to the bookstore, sit down, and read it, and put it back on the shelf. :)

[DarklyDreamingDrusilla]

Not really sure on the legallity of this but here is a link to someone who put the buffy season 8 stuff into a movie and most of the script is in it so you can watch them to see what happens.

YouTube - Buffy Season 8: The Long Way Home Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepp67a6aCI&feature=related)

[The Chosen]

Thanks, guys. I think I kinda get that it would very kinda sorta be illegal. Lol. And just so you know I never even planned on jeapordizing BB -- ever. :)

[nerd4hire]

Funny thing ya know...I just discovered there is a message board offering Season 8 transcripts.

[The Chosen]

Wierd! What board is it? Actually, don't post it. No one needs to get banned here lol. And if you're all pointing fingers going "Ooh! TC did it!" I just wanna let you know that is not my board. Lol.