Can There Be Retrograde Canon?

[Dlou444]

I was out browsing the other day for things to keep me busy while waiting for the next Buffy Tpb to come out in JUNE. And ran into an article about how Joss picked Brian Lynch for the Angel comics because he loved Spike:Asylum and Shadow Puppets.
So, I bought them. I haven't finished Shadow Puppets yet...although I'm trying DESPERATELY to pace myself. But, I did finish Asylum and LOVED it. I had read a couple of the other comics that weren't canon from the Buffy series and it left a bit to be desired. But, Asylum...I really loved. It got actual laughs out of me...Shadow Puppets has too.

In a weird and convoluted discussion with my husband, we started pondering some things. Like, for one, what an honor it has to be for Joss to like Brian Lynch's work so much that he'd pick him for the Angel comics. You can't really beat that kind of compliment.

Then my husband asked about George and where he came from. Which started us thinking in a strange Back To The Future time frame way. Asylum seems to be set after Season 5 of Angel. And, now after reading ATF, we would have to assume it's also set after the ATF series. (If it WERE canon of course.) But, if it were, it would kind of make sense that if George came from this alternate hell dimension, then when things go back...he could get out and end up in the demon loony-bin.

I don't know, it just kind of tended to reason that if Joss really LIKES these comics so much...enough to use one of the characters, then he just might leave room in HIS story for Asylum and Shadow Puppets to take place.

Of course, it's all subjective. It would depend on Joss's ideas for George and Spike and lots of things. But, Joss DOES seem the kind of guy that would be willing to work with Brian's stories.

But, my QUESTION is...if Joss DID find a way to work with all these characters and make it so these Spike comics COULD fit somewhere in the universe in a logical way somewhere down the line....would it even be possible to ever make them "retrograde canon"?

[palabravampiress]

Sure. Why not? Joss is Boss, man. If Joss were to give them his seal of approval and call them canon, then I would feel obligated to do the same.

[Dlou444]

Well, sure, but then again, if Joss told me he was started a cult and to join, I'd probably do that too. I guess my question is...how would that work?
Would it take more than just leaving space for this to be possible? Surely not, because this other comic I have...it's POSSIBLE. The comic book store is FULL of episode things that COULD have easily happened while running parallel to the show. And they aren't canon.
Surely, either Joss would have to annouce it and/or refer to these stories somehow in the "official" stories. Right? Like if, for some EVIL reason, the Angel comics ended after this season (and we assume that the Spike comics would naturally come sometime AFTER this) then it would be nearly impossible for the Angel comics to refer to them.

And would it take more than Joss just announcing it? I mean, it wouldn't for ME. Just the fact that he hand picked Brian Lynch because of them makes them official enough for ME. But, the term "official canon" seems like there'd actually have to be something "official"...like the Comic Book Congress has to pass something down. And retrograde seems like something that has to be voted on in a secret ceremony while the congress is wearing cloaks at midnight of the 2nd blue moon of the year. I've dated some comic book junkies and I think that scenerio is entirely possible!

[nerd4hire]

And would it take more than Joss just announcing it? I mean, it wouldn't for ME.

It would for me. For me it's black and white. What makes it canon, is if Joss signs onto it as such, or not.

Apparently that's not true for everybody. When we started hearing Beta George was going to make an appearance in A:ATF comments started appearing (I suggest from the IDW camp) suggesting this made the previous Lynch stories canon. In fact an entry appeared in Wikipedia (I suspect IDW) outright stating that as fact. That entry has since disappeared I believe, unless they put it back in.

IDW has tried to suggest their non-canon comics had canon status before. They did it upon announcing the coming of the Angel comics. They never actually stated it, but there was this feeling of an assumption, and when they were flat out asked about it, they danced around the issue.

OK, but could something get canon status that previously didn't have it? It may have already happened. Tales of the Slayers, and Tales of the Vampires were previously on the bubble as far as canon was concerned. Allycat tells me Joss did make a public declaration of canon on at least one of them, but I'm still waiting for the link. As far as I know people weren't really sure if they were canon, or not. Then "The Chain" offered a picture of the slayers from Tales of the Slayers in the Canon series of Buffy Season 8. My impression is most people now think of TotS as canon now as a result of that. In the upcoming Drew Goddard arc of B-8 Dracula appears to make an appearance. Goddard previously wrote a story for Tales of the Vampires in which Xander spent a year with Dracula. If that is mentioned people will say it becomes indisputable Tales of the Vampires is now canon. Personally, I won't argue with them.

Is it the same thing though, when Beta George makes an appearance in A:ATF? I would argue no, because Whedon does not have the same kind of involvement, input, or managerial status over A:ATF he has with Buffy 8. As I understand it he gave lynch a general outline, and they email back and forth about some stuff, but that to me does not confer the same kind of authorization of canon on something direct oversight would.

As far as what happens after A:ATF is concerned, my opinion will be if Joss doesn't publicly sign onto it as canon, it's not. If he does sign onto it, and Lynch starts weaving stories through his old storylines, then yeah, maybe...even I will have to admit, those 2 previous Lynch issues will start to feel pretty canony.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

That's pretty much the way I look at it, too - anybody can call anything they want canon, but it doesn't make it so unless Joss says so. It's his universe, after all.

[Dlou444]

I KNEW you'd be the voice of reason!

I thought I had read that Joss asked for George to be in the Angel comics because he liked him so much. Then again, finding that could be impossible and I don't think it was a quote anyway or it quoted Brian Lynch, which isn't quite as good as a quote from Joss.

George being in it, certainly doesn't make it "canon" to me either. And I think it's a stretch for people to already be saying they would be. I like the Spike stories a lot and I'm afraid my brain will go to the ends of the earth to fit them in, even if the Angel comics never gave them room to exist. But, that is just my head, which is a jumbled place anyway.

I would imagine Joss WILL let there be room for the Spike comics to be possible. I can't imagine him seeing the talent and then cutting off their storyline at the knees. Making it OFFICIALLY Official is something else though.


I agree though, George simply being there doesn't quite cut it. Joss could like the character and could have directly said, "PUT GEORGE IN IT" but that doesn't mean a lot in the whole scheme of things. Besides, too many things could happen in the Angel comics to mess that up. Like, simply, George MEETING Spike, which would throw that all into turmoil. My brain will still love the stories and fit them in, but that doesn't make it official in any official way.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Yeah, there are tons of other fictional characters who show up in other series, even in non-comic-related literature, but that doesn't mean anything (Sherlock Holmes has met Dracula in a dozen different novels, but that doesn't make it canon to either of the originals.)

[Allycat]

I gotta go with the majority; it ain't canon until Joss says so.


Just a little PS: According to the good folks at wikipedia Asylum and Shadow Puppets take place between Time Bomb and the Girl in Question.

[Dlou444]

According to the good folks at wikipedia Asylum and Shadow Puppets take place between Time Bomb and the Girl in Question.


Perhaps it's just my brain, but I think Wikipedia is on CRACK! Then again, it could well be my brain because as I mentioned before, it will go to the ends of the Earth to fit things in. But, I still don't think so. Heck, Spike has his OWN business cards and he doesn't seem to have seen Lorne in a while, Lorne doesn't appear to have any association with WR&H, Spike only seems to have a PAST association with WR&H...I'm sure I could think of more, but it could take a few minutes.
I don't see how that could be possible. Maybe I have to finish Shadow Puppets and reread them both. But, I think Wikipedia is just pulling things out of the air now. Or...maybe they got it from Brian Lynch and I am on crack. Boy, I hope not. I don't have time for Rehab right now!

[Allycat]

I just posted what I found there, since I haven't read either comic I can't tell you if it's true.

Back on topic, remember The Origin, after it came out Joss declared it canon, even though he had no (direct) influence on the work. So it is possible to retroactive become canon.

[Allycat]

Sorry for the double post, but here's the quote you were looking for N4H

The origin comic, though I have issues with it, CAN pretty much be accepted as canonical. They did a cool job of combining the movie script (the SCRIPT) with the series, that was nice, and using the series Merrick.

PS: Dlou44, I only correct the occasional typo.