Buffy's Maturity

[Dlou444]

A Thread Sparked By The Whether Buffy Loved Spike Post.

I thought a lot about this last night and Buffy seems to the only real character I can come up with that did NOT mature much over the reasons. Especially seasons 4 and 5..where we see almost EVERYONE from season 3 grow up.
Willow changes almost as soon as she starts college. She's much more perky and outgoing right away. Xander isn't quite as drastic, maybe because of all the different jobs he seemed to have, but he does work and becomes quite responsible and gets that fancy apartment and even gets engaged. (actual wedding not as important to the point) Anya is always a bit "whacky" but slowly evolves into a fairly productive human being. (Downfall from the wedding also not important.)
Dawn wasn't around in season 4, but we give her 5 and 6...by Season 7 she's little Mini Watcher. And was QUITE grown up in "Potential".
Spike obviously grows a LOT. Even Harmony seems to TRY to grow up. So, we have at least TWO points for the undead!

Then we have Cordy, Wesley, Faith and everyone on Angel that certainly grew and changed in that time period.

But, Buffy, she really didn't DO a lot of growing. Seasons 4 and 5 she kind of always seemed to have a look like a 3 year old lost in a department store. Granted, she had some good reasons, especially in S5.
Then in S6 she's just horribly lost and almost seems to regress to a tantrumy 2 year old. She certainly seems younger than Dawn.

It's really not until the wee hours of Season 7 that there is any real GROWTH in her character since she comes back home in S3. Her ONLY sign of minor growth is the part she sings at the end of the "I've Got A Theory" song.


I really have no point, other than it just seems ODD to me that everyone else seems to have grown up AROUND Buffy while she stayed pretty much the same for roughly 3 and a half years!
Anybody else notice that?

[Joyce Summers]

I think you did see Buffy mature over the years, especially in season 5. I mean can you really see season 1 Buffy dealing as well with her Mother's illness or taking on the responsibility of being a parent to Dawn.
Season 5 was very very heavy and had so much happen for Buffy, but she kept it together, at least on the image side of things for her family and friends. and if that isn't a sign of maturity I don't know what is. And her moment of self-sacrifice in The Gift? Dying so that Dawn and the others could live? That's definitely mature as she wasn't afraid to die so long as it kept her family and friends alive and safe. And she takes on a lot of responsibility over that entire year and we definitely see Buffy grow into an adult.

And as for season 6...I don't really think you count it. The girl just got dragged out of heaven so it was like starting all over again for her. Her life was over, she was finished and now it was like starting from scratch. So it took all of season 6 for her to get used to the world again. Hence why in season 7, as you mentioned, we see her back to being adulty person.

I mean, yeah the other characters went through a lot, but Buffy was the one who faced the most loss and responsibility over the years and her growth as an adult was all to do with accepting that and dealing with it. She grew up as much as the others it was just on a purely emotional level that can be quite unobvious, but is clearly there if you look. Whereas the other characters had actual events to show their growth; Xander getting a job and apartment, Willow's adaption to college life and coming to realize she was gay etc. Buffy's was gradual and constant.

And you have to remember that Buffy was already a lot more mature than the others in season one, because of all that slayerness entailed. So in essence the others over the years were just catching up with her maturity wise.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

She does mature, I mean, try watching Welcome To The Hellmouth, then Chosen, she defiantly changes. Just in a different way to the others, and c'mon she was the slayer, she had more to deal with, okay maybe not than say, Faith, or did she? She had to deal with dying...twice, knowing she could possibly die again soon, and after seeing another slayer go psysho it was hard for not to think that was coming for her. So sure, the others seemed to mature more than her, but that was only because they didn't have as much to deal with, she defiantly grew up a lot, though.

[palabravampiress]

I gotta agree with Slayer Comma The on this one.

I mean, look at 16-year-old Buffy throwing a temper tantrum on Giles and Angel because she doesn't want to face the Master and die. She doesn't want the burden of slayerdom. She wants to be a normal girl. In the early seasons, that's a big part of her character.

Flash forward to the end of season 5, and you can hardly recognize her as the same person. She accepts her slayer duties and willingly sacrifices herself. She doesn't just do it for the world or because she's the slayer, though. She also accepts her parental duties and sacrifices herself to save Dawn. Compare and contrast the scenes with the Master and the scenes with Glory and I think you'll see a very different Buffy.

In Season 6, Buffy faced a crisis. She slowly and painfully pulls herself out of that crisis, hence the coming out of the grave into the sunlight thing at the end. It's an adult crisis. It's a life stage, even. A lot of us go through a quarter-life crisis after college and before real job success in which we seem to be failing on all fronts.

Then, in Season 7, she is able to emerge from that as a productive citizen, a good slayer, and a decent parental figure and friend. She has forgiveness, compassion, confidence, determination, the ability to lead, the ability to take responsibility for others, etc. She is, as Spike says, "A Hell of a Woman." She is far more mature than season 1 Buffy, who was just a spoiled kid in comparison. By the end of season 7, Buffy is a truly amazing and mature individual.

[Dlou444]

And you have to remember that Buffy was already a lot more mature than the others in season one, because of all that slayerness entailed. So in essence the others over the years were just catching up with her maturity wise.

See...I think that statement is why I don't think she grew all that much in Season 5. Sure, she did help out while Joyce was sick and I suppose the immature thing to for a NORMAL person was go out drinking every night. On the other hand, she wasn't a normal person and already had all this "responsibility" thrust on her. She also wasn't exactly hanging out at home everynight when Joyce was sick, she was in and out and trying to get Glory and figure things out. Which is good and all, but not a lot different from the other seasons.

I give her slack for after Joyce died. No one really grows as a person as soon as they find their Mother dead. But, I don't give her that much credit for dying to save the world....because she does that in S1 too. It's noble. It's not self serving and all around fabulous, but not a huge sign of growth if she also did it at 15. ( :thought: Also, she was a bit whacky at that point and a good shrink might say she could have been leaning toward suicidal tendencies.)

It just seems like everyone else (including Faith who's a Slayer too) grew SO much and she just kind of stayed the same. Except for going WAY downhill in S6, although I will say she did have an excuse...it's hard to gauge how long you give someone to get over being ripped out of Heaven. Think Dr. Phil has a book on that?

Edit:

Compare and contrast the scenes with the Master and the scenes with Glory and I think you'll see a very different Buffy.

Maybe that's the problem. I don't see it. Perhaps a little less, "I wanna be a normal girl" I can see that. I can see less lying. But, that was also S1. By S3, she seems to be fairly settled with her lot in life. At least in the "Let's kick some butt way" and not whining all the time.
I don't think she's done a whole lot in the way of growing between S3 and S7. That's my point. A time when normal people AND her friends make some pretty big strides and she just seems to be kind of floating there. Not that she acted immature when she was 15. But, that from season 3 until she died she just seemed to just not move when everyone else did.

She DOES have a lot of responsibility thrust upon her. But, the same could be said for Xander, Willow and Dawn. And yet, they change DRASTICALLY. She does a lot of saying how SHE'S the slayer and they aren't, but if we're looking for responsibility, she may be able to slam demons into walls better than Willow, but everyone else is working on the research for hours (which looks like a NEVER ENDING pile of books) and figuring things out and with no one having a cell phone, lots of times that means dashing across town. It's not like these other people have nothing to do. They have lives that they live and things to show for it AND they do all the crappy leg work stuff so Buffy can kill the bad guys.

She does have to worry about dying young, but so do miners and electric line fixer people. And honestly, without these people who do the research and whip up the spells to help her, many times she'd look a LOT worse than a 3 year old lost a department store.

I will admit, she had a slightly better plan that JUST saving the world in S5, she also didn't want her sister to die. And I'm really not trying to belittle dying to save your sister and the world. It's all the other stuff in between S3 beginning when she DOES appear to be shaping up and maturing until the end of S5 when she just doesn't seem to move forward all that much.

[Keanoite]

I think it is crazy to say she doesn't mature. My God did that girl grow up and fast, and she continued to do so. The difference bewteen Buffy and the scoobies is that they phyically got to move on with their lives, jobs, marriage, college etc. Buffy stayed standing still, thats why her maturity is less noticable. The lessons Willow and Xander were learning in seasons 6 and 7 Buffy learnt in 2 and 3 and she continues to grow. I mean she went back to her friends after they kicked her out. If she hadn't grown as a person there is no way she would have emotionally been able to deal with that.

[Bangelxx]

I think Buffy does mature because when Joyce dies she takes the whole responsibility of Dawn on her shoulders and she tries to be mature! She's 22 or something and already trying to be a "parent"! I'd say she tries her hardest

[Dlou444]

I think it is crazy to say she doesn't mature. My God did that girl grow up and fast, and she continued to do so. The difference bewteen Buffy and the scoobies is that they phyically got to move on with their lives, jobs, marriage, college etc. Buffy stayed standing still, thats why her maturity is less noticable. The lessons Willow and Xander were learning in seasons 6 and 7 Buffy learnt in 2 and 3 and she continues to grow. I mean she went back to her friends after they kicked her out. If she hadn't grown as a person there is no way she would have emotionally been able to deal with that.

I agree AND disagree.
1.) I may well be crazy
2.) Maybe I just don't understand the concept, which is highly likely.

It seems to me, she's on fairly level groud with Cordy, Xander and Willow in S1. She does have the knowledge of what happened before, but she's running from it. She's slightly at the advantage that she knows about vampires and what to do and they don't.

But, by S3, she's run off and not doing ANY slaying (from what she tells Lily) while her friends who have no powers are taking on HER jobs and risking their lives.
I will admit that through S3 she seems to grow up a lot. She accepts more about her life realizes she does have a calling and she can be better at it WITH her friends.

But, I don't see how she has THAT much more on her plate that Xander, Cordy and Willow. She may have that impending maybe an early death over her head, but SO DO THEY! And they also find ways to deal with that impending death, look forward, find income, go to school, and work on making a life for themselves...like adults do, WHILE being stuck with the bulk of the research and always in the midst of the "big battle". All without Super Powers (except for Cordy's visions).

It's the part of between your Senior Year and 2 years after where you DO things that all her friends DID. They found themselves, they were creating a future and she just....didn't. And with them all being in peril, it's hard to see what was SO oppressive about being a Slayer that she couldn't do that too. She could have if she wanted to. She could have been a cryptozoologist if she wanted to, but SOMETHING. You know had she tried construction any time other than that one episode, perhaps it would have worked nicely. Xander seemed to be able to hold down a day job. Or maybe worked with the Initiative after S4...perhaps she could have been TOP DOG there after a while with all she knew.
Even GILES got a real job after the library.

Most of the maturity that comes in that time frame is either very outward or very inward. Either you learn LOTS about yourself (like Faith, Cordy and in some ways Willow) or it's outward and you achieve in school or support yourself (like Xander, Cordy and Willow). Buffy didn't do the crazy inward soul searching...other than the falling apart after Joyce died (which she's already been given a pass for) and she didn't support herself or get interested in school for some higher career down the road. It's like she graduated and then just levels off. More school to enroll in and not pay attention to. PLENTY of time to obsess over a boy. Kill a few demons and go to bed.
So, how does Willow have time to go to school, mess with magic, obess over Oz and then Tara (then Oz again), help out at the Magic Box, kill a few demons and go to bed?

Perhaps I'm missing her "specialness"? I get that she has a lot of responsibilities, more than most highschool or college students, but she does NOT appear to have more than her friends and they all grew. What am I missing?

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

ok, i think as i saw it, she WAY matured from season 1 buffy but at about season 5, she was at her peak. taking responsibility after her mom passed, even realizing her death was needed to save the world...as opposed to season 1 "im 16, i dont wanna die". Granted, any 16 year old would feel that way but to be able to willingly sacrifice herself, to no longer be afraid but to understand it was her part in everything to do so, was maturity.

Then, i dunno, season 6 she seemed to go downhill a little, i think because of the ordeal of coming back. But by the end of season 7 i dont think she was any more mature than the end of season 5.... i think her growth became static after 5.

[white avenger]

(When I first saw this thread, I thought it said "Buffy's Maternity." It's been a long hard day at work)

Of course Buffy matured. She went from being a relatively carefree ex-cheerleader to being a world savior, not once, but on an annual basis. She went overnight from being just "Big Sis" to being the head of a household and the authority figure to a girl who wasn't really a girl, but some sort of mystical energy ball who was wanted by, not a demon, but a GOD, who was determined to return to her own private hell and destroy all of mankind in the process. She wasn't even allowed to stay dead, because her well meaning but totally irresponsible "friends" robbed her of her eternal reward and brought her back into a world full of bright lights, sharp edges, leaky water pipes, and let's not forget a stack of bills apparently incurred by those same friends while she was dead. Oh, and the really maturing experience of having to be the sole bread winner in a house occupied by three other perfectly healthy adults, while doing a balancing act of patroling all night, working all day, and listening to Dawn scream, "Get out, get out, GET OUT!!!" every time the little twit didn't get her way.

Did I forget anything? Well, there's the matter of three nerds who are trying to become crime lords while living in a "Star Wars" fantasy world, a best friend who dumps his would be bride at the alter, ANOTHER friend who damn near destroys the world...

Oh, yeah, let's not forget the affair with a vampire, which is the only thing that allows her a brief respite from the horrors of everyday life, an affair that she's afraid to acknowledge because her "friends" might not like it...

Buffy didn't mature? We haven't even gotten to Season 7, when she literally had to decide which of a group of girls barely into their teens would live or die, an incorporeal seemingly all powerful being is once more set on destroying the world with the help af an army of troll-like monsters, and, lest we forget, her vampire lover from the previous year accomplishing what should have been an impossible feat: winning his soul just to show her the true depths of his feelings for her, while her mentor and father figure plots to kill that same vampire lover because he just arbitrarily "wants better for her"...

Buffy didn't just mature, she probably aged ten years just over the course of Seasons 6 and 7.

[Dlou444]

Buffy didn't just mature, she probably aged ten years just over the course of Seasons 6 and 7.

Now THAT I'll give her! :lmao:

But, I'm not hearing so much maturing as horrible things she dealt with. And, sometimes, either she didn't deal with very well OR her friends dealt with the same things.
I mean, didn't Willow and Tara also drop everything to be a Mother to Dawn? And worked on the Buffy-bot. In that episode where they talk about the money, they don't say THEY racked up a bunch of bills, that just the mortgage and the random bills that come from the house being there and being lived in took money. But, since they've paid for their own food and housing up until then, one would assume that they'd paid for some of it...somehow. With whatever funds they were supporting themselves on. The lights and phone and water were all still ON, so they had to have been paying SOMETHING. And surely they paid something even after she started working because you can't keep a house like that afloat on a Double Meat Palace income. And, if you can, we NEED one of those babies here! Our cost of living is VERY LOW here and we'd be on the street if I tried so support our family of four on that budget.

She didn't fair well in S6, and I can understand. She went a little batty when Joyce died and I can give her that too. But, from S3 until Joyce dying there just isn't any movement forward. AT LEAST compared the other characters and they were in the same circumstances.

I just feel like she started in 1 and went up, wobbled a bit at the end of season 2 beginning of 3 then shot up a LOT. She was moving forward, gaining confidence, whooping butt and taking names and even trying to help out Faith the Unfortunate a lot of times...then kind of leveled off. She DID step up when Joyce died although she wasn't very together. (Which she probably shouldn't have been, but what little preparing her friends had done would have come in darn handy when she had to do it.) She seemed to muddle her way through and would have come out on top had she not died and had to deal with that. She was a mess in 6 and in 7 she starts to deal with her "inner demons" like she SHOULD have been doing long ago.

She did DO things between season 3 and Joyce dying, but not with any more foresight or maturity than she did in S3.

I did a LOT of chores when I was 16. Not because I was mature, but because I'd get in trouble if I didn't. I do all those chores now too...and more. But, since I've matured, it's not because I will get in trouble if I don't. Or at least not the same sort of trouble. I do the dishes because they'll smell if I don't, maybe ruin my plates, we could all get botulism and rats and it costs a LOT to get rid of both of those.

[Vicariously]

I can see both points...but as I see it...

Buffy had to mature...how else could viewers swallow her being a parent to Dawn realistically. However, I do relize that without the help of her friends she wouldn't have been able to keep Dawn.

Buffy I noticed seemed to let go of the idea of growing up past being the slayer...she knew she could never truly be in a relationship that she could never truly be normal. She got past the tantrums of wanting to be normal and just accepted it and in that aspect alone shows she matured. While her friends were able to plan for a normal life, in a way we all know she could not.Yes, they choose to stand by Buffy and support her, but the maturity you speak off, the growth: was ultimately them making a "normal" life for themselves.

Besides, Who's to say how season 8 would have started? (yes I know there is a comic book but I have yet to read it so I am left with my own ideas.)

In my opinion, in order to make it in a new town Buffy would have to secure a stable job...she would have to keep under the radar as the slayer....she would have to appear normal and that would mean she would have to show that she was in fact a "mature" adult. Something I think she would, in my opinion, have no problem achieving.

[Jules]

I think I agree with Dlou444 on this. I don't think Buffy matured. Yes, I think she went through changes in her life, she went off to college, she lost loved ones, she turned to the dark side (that's my way of referring to season 6) and she came out of it, but are there any differences between her in season 1 and season 7. I don't think there are that many. She brought the Scoobies together in season 1, she became their unspoken leader. She kept her friends safe while at the same time they helped her with slayer duties. Fast forward to season 7, the only thing that has changed is the increase of numbers to her slayer group. And truthfully, how much does she help train the potentials, Anya gives demos, Faith helps them blow off steam, Giles is there in Watcher mode and Buffy offers them a place to stay. In season 1, Buffy shows a defiance to Giles in the episode Prophecy, she does not want to do her slayer duties. In season 7 she still defies Giles as any daughter would their father. She has more battle tactics in season 7 than in season 1.

I think she's gone through changes, but as for maturing, looking at it, she's still similar to the girl she was in season 1.

[Dlou444]

In my opinion, in order to make it in a new town Buffy would have to secure a stable job...she would have to keep under the radar as the slayer....she would have to appear normal and that would mean she would have to show that she was in fact a "mature" adult. Something I think she would, in my opinion, have no problem achieving.

DEFINATELY! I was VERY pleased at the end of S7. She seemed to have a finally realized a LOT about herself. Maybe part was Robin Wood's revelation that his Mother was a Slayer...well and she wasn't the ONLY one anymore.
But, you even saw this light come on when he asked her to work at the school, like, "HEY! There ARE things I can do and still be in the thick of things".
I wanted to knock her in the head a couple of times while she was working at the Double Meat Palace and say, "HELLO! If you can somehow hold THIS job down with it's crappy, irregular hours and bad pay...is there NO other job in Sunnydale you could try?" I mean, I got WHY she took that job, but once she had it and realized it WAS possible to work and be the Slayer...why not put out feelers for something a BIT more lucrative?

Granted, all that was in S6 when she has a pass for not moving forward much.

Although, then again, maybe they had to keep her a bit insecure or run out of story. I guess it wouldn't have been all that fun to just watch demon come into town, her be all "together girl" and whip it's butt and go on to next week.

Maybe the root of my issue comes from in S4 and S5 she does a LOT of obsessing over both Riley and then Dawn. Like a normal (if not younger) person. Spending all that time worrying about her boyfriend and sister is not the actions of someone who thinks there's no point to anything because they're going to die early. In fact, seems to me, she shouldn't be dating at ALL (except for perhaps Vampires that she know it can't work with) because there really isn't a point to much except release of sexual tension.

It feels like she's going all nutty over these guys and what can be "forever" and what can't and NOT worrying about making HERSELF able to sustain a forever in any sense of the word unless she really thought she'd live off Joyce forever.
It just seems that she's IN college for the bulk of both seasons and not really giving a poop about it. Why even bother? Even in just preparing for college I was debating all the things I could possibly do with my life. One would think that if she's thinking "forever" with her love life, she'd once in a while think about things SHE could do....even if it was just to think, "Gee, I can't just wander around campus forever, eventually I'll need another cover for my Slaying duties."

It really doesn't matter and apparently I'm not even right in thinking it. I just feel like..here's this girl with SO much going for her. She's come to terms with SO much and she appears to be rather smart and a GREAT problem solver that thinks well on her feet and yet, spends SO much time dwelling on what she can't do that she doesn't notice all she COULD do. And it just seems to go on an on...and causes a LOT of trouble in S6...not to mention she loses a lot of time she could have had a really sweet relationship Spike but never noticed.
I think this is proof I've been a Mom too long. I hate to see her not see her walk around for those 2 seasons not noticing her potential. Even if her life really was going to be short.

[Vicariously]

I just feel like..here's this girl with SO much going for her. She's come to terms with SO much and she appears to be rather smart and a GREAT problem solver that thinks well on her feet and yet, spends SO much time dwelling on what she can't do that she doesn't notice all she COULD do.

isnt that the problem with so many people in life!!!! LOL