More sorry for Lorne or Lindsey?

[TabulaRasa]

For anyone who has not finished season 5 of Angel, these posts will contain spoilers. Read at your own risk. :)








I finished season 5 again and I always felt very bad when Lorne killed Lindsey. The thing is, I didn't feel bad for Lindsey, I felt bad for Lorne. I always get kind of emotional during that scene.
Do you feel more sorry for Lorne having to do something like that or for Lindsey since it is he it happened to?

[GATEGOD]

I felt bad for Lindsey. I loved both characters but Lindsey was right. He shouldn't have been killed by the 'Lackey'. I didn't see Lorne as a lackey ever.. until he shot Lindsey after Lindsey had just killed off all of the people there for the team.. He might have had wrong motives, he might have turned evil afterwards, he might have become Angel's nemesis, but Angel took it into his mind and had him killed. He didn't even give Lindsey the time of day for a fight. He just sent someone to do the dirty work. I feel sorry for Lorne, I can't believe he went through with it, and since he did, he made the right choice not going back to Angel's 'Team' Lindsey though, since he was killed, and knew he would never achieve what he wanted and was killed by someone he considered so inferior was very sad.

[Allycat]

I felt a little sorry for both of them. But the fact that Lindsey protested not over being killed, but over who killed him, shows that in the end he was still the same arrogant man he was when we first met him. All his experiences over the last few years hadn't made him a better person. Lorne on the other hand. Well, I guess you could maybe even say that his experiences made him a worse person. And that I mostly feel sorry for.

[GATEGOD]

I felt a little sorry for both of them. But the fact that Lindsey protested not over being killed, but over who killed him, shows that in the end he was still the same arrogant man he was when we first met him. All his experiences over the last few years hadn't made him a better person. Lorne on the other hand. Well, I guess you could maybe even say that his experiences made him a worse person. And that I mostly feel sorry for.

See I felt sorry for him both that he was killed, and that he was killed not by the person he wanted to kill him! :lmao:

[VisionGuy]

I feel bad for Lindsey because he's the one that got shot. It wasn't Angel's place to decide who lives and who dies. Everybody in AI can be a threat one time or the other. Angel kills me with his decisions.

[white avenger]

Well, both were in a way betrayed by Angel. Lindsey risked his life to help Angel's plan and then was killed by, literally, as he said, "a flunky." I mean, really, what sense did it make to kill him at that point? He could have been at least as much help in the final battle as Gunn, even unwounded, and Angel had pretty much resigned himself to nobody surviving the night alive. Another sword would've increased his fighting force by 20%, nothing to throw away lightly. If worse came to worst, Angel could have killed him himself at any time during the battle. It would have been the honorable thing to do. At least he would have allowed Lindsey to die with some sense of dignity. The way it worked out was just like Angel telling Lindsey that Lindsey was beneath him. (Does that sound familiar?)

As for Lorne, how could Angel forget that he was an EMPATH, for god's sake? Granted, he couldn't fully "read" Lindsey unless he sang, and that was hardly the time to break into song, but he must have felt SOME degree of Lindsey's pain, sense of betrayal and death. Something like that must have been truly horrible and heart breaking for both of them.

It's just yet one more example of Angel's total unconcern for the people who literally placed their lives in his hands. The assault was hastily and poorly planned (I know, both the season AND the series was ending, but some more time could have found somewhere to allow for a better strategy AND the gathering of more allies.) One wasted episode that could have been dropped in order to have more prep time was "The Girl In Question." It contributed absolutely nothing to the continuity of the series except to get Spike a new supply of leather dusters, and as we know now, it wasn't even Buffy. When Sarah said that she wouldn't be available for a guest shot on the show, the whole episode should have been scrapped in favor of allowing the writers more time to set the stage for the big finale. If they were going to use a poor substitute for Buffy anyway, they could've saved it for the end, then either shown her back at the head of a band of Slayers coming up behind Spike, Angel, and Illyria in the last scene, or on the other end of a phone call when one or both of her vampire lovers called to say what they honestly thought was goodbye.

[GATEGOD]

I didn't think about the extra sword in the final battle thing til you just mentioned it, but you're right that would have given them an extra sword, two including Lorne who probably wouldn't have left if Angel didn't tell him to kill Lorne. But than again.. Lorne wouldn't have been all that good in a fight but having two more people there would have helped, ALOT.

[white avenger]

Don't sell Lorne short in a fight. He grew up in a very warlike world, and he must have absorbed SOME martial skills there. If nothing else, he could have watched the others' back, giving the alarm if any of the hell hoard circled around and attacked from the rear. Also, don't forget that high pitched scream of his that seems to disable anyone who hears it. Of course, in that case, the good guys would have to wear ear plugs, but not many meaningful conversations are usually carried on during the chaos of battle.

[Senior Watcher]

wow. thats a tough one.

i would have to say that i feel more sorry for lorne. he was a great guy who wasnt too fond of violence......but always seemed to be around. so having to kill someone in cold blood is a step that he shouldnt have had to take.

lindsey had run his course. it was past his time to die. i just think angel, wesley, or cordelia (yes i know she is dead, but is anyone really dead in the jossverse?) should have done it.

[palabravampiress]

This is one of those down-the-rabbit-hole moments for me, man.

Angel ordered the elimination of an ensouled human man who, while not innocent, had become at least an ally. He ordered that man's death not because he posed an immediate threat but, instead, because Angel assumed he would pose a threat in the future. Angel wanted to nip a human life in the bud in advance of any trouble that human life might cause to Angel or his plan. He ordered Lorne to do it because no one would ever guess that the resident demon pacifist would be the one to kill. Also, yes, I believe it was a final snub. That's cold-blooded. That's hardcore. That's... Angelus, what with the little psychological twist on the end. The entire plan reeked of Angelus. As much as I love Angelus, I hate to see Angel dredge him up voluntarily.

I don't know why Lorne did it. He said he heard Lindsey sing, so I'm assuming he saw some sort of horrible future that he was trying to avoid.

As for Angel, well... he told Spike that he was going back to Hell when he died. Then, later, he started to question whether or not his destiny was really what he thought it was. Then, he lost Cordy. I think W&H seeped into Angel's soul. I think it was killing him, little by little, and so he went on a suicide mission so that he could go out with a bang and have something of the great destiny he wanted. Very Beowulf of him. He signed away his prophecy. He killed Drogyn. He ordered a hit on Lindsey. Unless he's seen one too many gangster movies or watched GH, I'd say he was pretty sure he wasn't coming back from this fight. I'd say ordering the hit on Lindsey was Angel's way of taking care of business from (even deeper) beyond the grave. He lived by a moral code. But because he wasn't going to live anymore and Hell awaited anyway, I think he felt free to toss that code aside. I see his frame of mind here as very similar to The Operative's frame of mind in Serenity. He wanted to help build a better world -- a world in which there could be no place for a monster like him.

I feel bad for Lindsey, whom I think deserved at least the same chance Angel had been given - the chance to change. At the very least, he was a worthy adversary who deserved to die with honor and because of a scheme he attempted, not one he may or may not have attempted at some point in the future. I feel bad for Lorne, too, whom I imagine as drunk and tormented (very much like Angel was before he met Whistler). I even feel bad for Angel, whose beautiful soul seems pretty tarnished in the end.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Lorne. Lindsey got what was coming to him.

[definition of insane]

I always wondered about that. Whether Angel was really okay with killing an ally (while suspicious as Lindsay was)...and even moreso that he was willing to use one of his friends to do it, regardless of how that friend is.

I did feel sorry for Lorne. He wanted to go his own way and Angel asks this one favour of him that if they weren't at the front of an apocolypse, should never have been asked of him. Not so much Lindsay, I agree with Allycat. The fact he was so upset at being killed by a "flunkey" means that even at the end, he really didn't get it.

[justanotherjen]

Well, personally, I loved the twist ending with Lorne shooting him. I was unspoiled for that part of the episode (just watched it last week) and it totally surprised me. I loved Lindsey, especially after he left W&H, so from that perspective it was a crappy death. It was pretty cold blooded.

But, in the end, I felt more bad for Lorne. I knew something was up when he told Angel he wouldn't meet them at the hotel. At the time I thought he felt he would die before he got there then when I saw him pull the gun I realized Angel had asked him to do such a heinous thing that he could barely live with himself, let alone look at Angel again. It was just so out of character for Lorne. I wanted to cry for him.

[Dlou444]

Actually, I ended up feeling more angry at Angel than anything else.

I felt like, sure, Lindsey had done some not so great things, but he also seemed to come through a lot when it was necessary. Certainly more than Faith had and even Darla and yet time and time again Angel tried to HELP them instead of just getting rid of them.
And, I felt like having Lorne do it was kind of a stupid loop-hole around the "not killing humans" theory.
He was happy to USE Lindsey when it suited him, but to do something so permanent and to make LORNE...the King Of Niceness and Sanity to do it, was all sorts of cruel. If I'd have been Lorne, I'd have said, "Do it yourself Big Boy...sorry I wasted so much time on someone who either doesn't know me at all or doesn't care who I am."
I felt like it was a useless death and one that still makes me want to sit Angel down and do a bit of screaming.

Although, I must say, Lindsey's comment about being taken down by a "lackey" helped me not feel so sorry for him. If he had said something more along the lines of how he really wanted to help and turn his life around, I'd have felt more sorry for him. Wishing it was Angel doing it, just made him look like a jerk.

I guess I feel worse for Lorne, but my overwhelming feeling is wishing Illyria had taken 2 seconds in that alley to throw Angel through a brick wall.

Wanabee-slayer is the goddess of all that is pink and fluffy in the world

[Clem Rocks]

Lyndsey, because i really thought if Lorne hadn't have killed him, he would have stayed good and fought on Angel's side

[Gilesau]

Lorne. I was also non spoiled by the last episode and was totally surprised when he killed Lindsey. I also liked Lindsey but he got what was coming to him. But I am also angry at Angel for making Lorne kill. This is not what Lorne is about. I can't wait to see how Lorne is coping in the comics.

[TabulaRasa]

Lorne. I was also non spoiled by the last episode and was totally surprised when he killed Lindsey. I also liked Lindsey but he got what was coming to him. But I am also angry at Angel for making Lorne kill. This is not what Lorne is about. I can't wait to see how Lorne is coping in the comics.

I know! I am dieing to see Lorne back with the gang. I love Lorne.
And yes, Lorne should not have to kill anyone in that way. In battle it's different, but then again, I guess you could say, that was battle.
It's just not the type of battle I am speaking of.

[Kana]

I feel little sorry for them both but more for Lorne. If we are to believe Lorne and Angel, Lindsay was a threat and wasn't going to change but death is death in the end.

I feel sorry to Lorne's condition but I'm not a part of the "Big Bad Angel made Lorne kill Lindsay camp". Angel asked and Lorne agreed because of what he read in him. He's responsible for that decision as is Angel.

[SonOfBathory]

I never really got these events. I don't know why Angel had Lindsey killed, and I especially do not understand why he got Lorne to do this rather underhand work. I agree that Angel betrayed everyone including himself here. Lindsey was, for whatever reason, fighting on the side of good, and deserved at least to be given a fighting chance. Angel struck a deal with Lindsey and he should have kept to it. To turn on him and and strike him down without warning was inexcusable.

[Lorne]

I know most people say they're surprised by Lorne in the last episode, but truthfully I wasn't that surprised. First of all he is a demon, whether a good one or not he is a demon. Second of all, he was ordered by Angel to do this, or so that is what we are lead to believe... part of me wonders if Lorne hadn't intended on this from the get go because he didn't trust Lindsey worth a nickel. And does he even return in the comics? I don't have the comics, I need to find a way to get a hold of them, but I wonder if he's even returning in the comic versions and I wonder too how he would cope with that on his shoulders.

[JCC]

Was there any confirmation that it was indeed Angel that made Lorne kill Lindsey? Could it not be that Lorne did it on his own whim?

[SonOfBathory]

Well, to my mind there was, yes. If you remember, in Wolfram and Hart, when Eve asked where Lindsey was, Angel said he wasn't coming back. The others were not back at that time. The only way he could have known is because he knew what Lorne was going to do. Also the Lorne seemed very unhappy when he parted company with Angel after talking about "the plan". He said he would do this one last thing and then that was it, he would not join them in the alley afterward, and would go his own way. To me that was clearly Lorne being very unhappy with Angels plan to kill Lindsey.

[JCC]

Yeah. I guess I was just too taken aback by the imagery of Lorne shooting Lindsey to look into the events of the episode. I was just kind of like "Aw, isn't that cute they're fighting togeth- OH GOD!!!"

[SonOfBathory]

I know what you mean! It still sticks in my mind as the oddest part of the entire series.

[rickmaniac]

Having just watched this episode for the first time a few days ago, all my emotions are still fresh in my mind. I was completely and totally heartbroken and devastated for Lorne. Lindsey, I honestly could have cared less. IMHO he got what was coming to him. Yes, he had "converted" to the "right"side and all, but you have to look at his past. There was most definately a chance that Lindsey would have gone along with Angel, but who is to say that he wouldn't have done something to stab them in the back? That is pure Lindsey behavior. Lorne on the other hand, I honestly couldn't believe it! I had tears in my eyes watching that scene. Throughout the whole series Lorne was anti-violence. Although, he was more against violence at the beginning and you could see him slowly getting darker as the series progressed. However, I am not too sure I buy into the whole "it's all Angel's fault".... a person can make their own decisions right? I dont completely understand why Lorne went through with it.....
GAH! It just bothered me so much! I was yelling at the television.... He seemed so torn when he did it, like he was having an inner battle as to whether he should do it or not....

Sorry, Im starting to ramble here lol. I tend to ramble when something makes me bitter

[GATEGOD]

Haha but Lindsey's morals in the past, why he left Wolfram in heart in the first place and his final few eps, I can easily see him fighting with Angel and crew. But you are right he could have stabbed them in the back down the road. Still that doesn't give them the right to make Lorne kill the guy. They are supposed to fight after the person doeas something bad... not guess and hope it was the right decision. Lorne shoulda shot Angel for making him do it! :silly: Aww but then Angel would be dead :( Lorne shouldn't have shot anyone then! haha I still feel bad more for Lindsey cause HE'S DEAD. But also for Lorne for having to do it.

[palabravampiress]

You ask a good question, rickmaniac. Why DID Lorne agree to it? He could have refused.

Lorne said it was because he heard Lindsey sing. Since Lorne is an empath demon, the thought here is that Lorne either knew that Lindsey was plotting against them or saw a future in which Lindsey did something so terrible that Lorne felt compelled to shoot him rather than to let that happen.

But here's what I don't get: didn't Lorne see L.A. being sucked into Hell? What could Lindsey have done in Lorne's vision to be worse than THAT? And why didn't Lorne tell Angel about hell?

What do you think Lorne saw when Lindsey sang?

[alexa]

Actually this is the main thing in Not Fade Away that I don't really understand. Why would Lorne agree to kill someone.. I guess we're meant to read into when he says 'I've heard you sing'.. so he knows Lindsay's path. And instead of what he usually does, of stepping aside, he helps out Angel.. decides he's gone too far and leaves. And Fred dying really effected him. Oh well Lorne's end in NFA just felt a bit unsatisfying, although that was the point of the episode.
Anyway as for the question I felt more sorry for Lorne, but also for Lindsay a little... always enjoyed Lindsay.

I wonder if Lorne realized what was going to happen to LA... wont say anymore about that in case I spoil peeps for After the Fall. ;)

[rickmaniac]

I think that when Lindsey sang, Lorne saw some doubt and not really confusion, but some kind of ambiguity as to Lindsey's true loyalty. Seeing that uncertainty could possibly have made Lorne slightly more willing to follow the path that Angel had (supposedly) set for him. Also, were there not references to how Lorne didn't trust Lindsey? Perhaps Lorne had seen this doubt and the possiblity that Lindsey could turn on them and Lorne thus didnt trust him, just waiting for that crucial moment where Lindsey might bail on them?
I honestly don't know lol. Forgive my feeble attempts at this sort of thing - I've never really had the chance to analyze a show like this. I love this stuff!

Edit:

the one and only alexa did - Isn't it beautiful?!

[Kana]

Yeah it's a difficult one but Lindsay is power player. He seemed to buy into Holland Manners Master/Slave morality and someone like Lindsay would be a threat in that situation. Well in any case Lorne doesn't trust Lindsay anymore than Angel does. However Lorne is still pissed with Angel but more importantly with himself. He feels the lines have been crossed by Angel and himself. Maybe Spike was right W&H changes you.

ANGEL
He brought Drogyn.

WESLEY
To the circle... so you could kill him to prove you'd gone over.

LORNE
Yeah. Say, any other tips on how to be a hero we could share with the boys and girls at home?

Also with what happened to Fred, it's all too much for Lorne. His own flirtation with moral ambiguity is too much. Maybe he agreed with the Lindsay plan because he thought despite the moral dilemma of killing a human, he may have a positive consequence.

[tearsong]

You know i thought about this a bit, came to the thread read and left and thought some more.... Lorne doesn't seem to be the follower type... he'll tell someone to step off if the action is questionable. I think with his reading, he KNEW that Lindsay was gonna mess things up for Angel and gang, or the world.
Lindsay has this terrible tendancy to feel temporarily bad about something Wolfram Hart are doing and then turn about and play bad when the options suit him....
And I personally think it was cheap of Lorne, who KNEW this needed to be done or he wouldn't have agreed, to make this his final scene with angel and the gang.... I get boundaries, but how many times have others sacrificed to do ultimate good? And Lorne gets his panties in a twist 'cause no one ese can be in 2 different places so he's NEEDED to handle this issue??
I ADORE Lorne, don't get me wrong, but he shoulda been there for the last battle... it seemed cheap and cowardly for him to bow out this late in the game... So while I feel a little bad for both of 'em, I'm also a little anger at them too.

[JCC]

Eh, I guess I sympathize for Lindsey more because he's dead just because Angel couldn't look away from his past, but looking at Angel's past is hardly sunshine and roses.

[rickmaniac]

And I personally think it was cheap of Lorne, who KNEW this needed to be done or he wouldn't have agreed, to make this his final scene with angel and the gang.... I get boundaries, but how many times have others sacrificed to do ultimate good? And Lorne gets his panties in a twist 'cause no one ese can be in 2 different places so he's NEEDED to handle this issue??
I ADORE Lorne, don't get me wrong, but he shoulda been there for the last battle... it seemed cheap and cowardly for him to bow out this late in the game... So while I feel a little bad for both of 'em, I'm also a little anger at them too.

I kinda agree, but - I dont recall seeing Lorne as particularily violent throughout the show. I mean, yes he's helped out and all that, slayed some things and all that jazz. But this was the first time (if Im not mistaken) that he was asked to do something like this to someone he knew. Albeit, he didnt trust Lindsey as far as he could throw him (and its not the hulk!Lorne doing the throwing lol) but this was a human being that he knew personally. It's a whole different ball game when youre asked to do that to someone you know. And to make matters worse, it seemed like Lorne knew that this had to be done. It went completely against who he was as a "person".

[tearsong]

I know he's not the most violent in the group.... however adults know that there's crap you end up doing because you HAVE to, not because you WANT to. I don't think Angel would have ignored the fact that this was against Lorne's normal thing, but it must have been THAT important for him to do so.

[Tranquillity]

i sympathise for Lorne more because he got so totally turned around by there tenancy at Wolfram and Hart and it was quite tragic. He was introduced to Angel as this peace-lovign demon who didn't like fighting and violence, who escaped his home dimension so he could sing and gradually he becomes this jaded, weary, accepting guy who kills because that's what he's asked to do. i do feel sorry for Lindsey too, i mean, he's the one who gets killed 'just in case' he does something sometime in the future and Angel decides he's not part of the solution. i love Angel but man, he can be dictatorial!

[palabravampiress]

i love Angel but man, he can be dictatorial!

That's what I keep saying!


I guess this brings up an interesting debate, then: what's more important; the crime, or the intent?

Let's assume that, because Lorne's a reader and he referenced his visions, Lindsey at least intended to do something dastardly enough to warrant the killing of an ensouled human. That's always been a non-no in the Buffyverse except in cases of apocalypse, so I think it's fair to assume that either Lindsey's continued life accidentally ensures apocalypse or he intends to do something that will ensure apocalypse. Is it consistent with the ethics of the Buffyverse to take action before that intent can take root and flourish, or do proper Buffyverse ethics dictate that the hero must wait until the eleventh hour? Basically, what I'm asking is a two-parter: First, do the lives of those who would potentially be lost if one person lived justify the preemptive murder of that person? Secondly, does intending to do something wrong warrant the same punishment as actually doing something wrong?

What do you guys think?

I, for one, don't question the fact that Angel really and truly thought he was saving lives - and that Lorne did, as well. But I'm bugged by "what if?" The team has used Lorne's insight to avoid disaster before. What if what Lorne saw could have been averted by some other means? By taking this action, Angel and Lorne sort of played God and vigilante all rolled into one. I think it was wrong. I think the ethically correct hero must always wait for the villain to actually do something wrong. Otherwise, the hero becomes just as bad as the villain.

[Kana]

Let's assume that, because Lorne's a reader and he referenced his visions, Lindsey at least intended to do something dastardly enough to warrant the killing of an ensouled human. That's always been a non-no in the Buffyverse except in cases of apocalypse,

You see I'm not one of those people who believe in 'Buffyverse' ethics. To me they can easily be identified by and/or associated with real world ethics (aside from the vampire thing...) however it is presented as "what would people do if this situation were real?" That's how I prefer to read it. So it becomes a "real world" hypothetical if you will. That is to say, would you kill someone, or if vampires existed would you etc....

so I think it's fair to assume that either Lindsey's continued life accidentally ensures apocalypse or he intends to do something that will ensure apocalypse. Is it consistent with the ethics of the Buffyverse to take action before that intent can take root and flourish, or do proper Buffyverse ethics dictate that the hero must wait until the eleventh hour?


Based on what I just said, I would read this simply as a hypothetical question...


Basically, what I'm asking is a two-parter: First, do the lives of those who would potentially be lost if one person lived justify the preemptive murder of that person? Secondly, does intending to do something wrong warrant the same punishment as actually doing something wrong

The interesting thing about this question is that it reminds me of both the "How should we judge vampires?" question and the "Minority Report" issue. It also questions what Lorne actually reads and free will itself.

I'll try and look at this one by one. I once wrote a little mini-essay on how one should judge vampires. If vampires have a psychological alteration so profound from human beings then we can probably say that we shouldn't judge them the same as humans. If we did then this makes Buffy's job morally complex. If we killing them because they are evil then, does that mean Buffy kills all beings she deems as evil or all killers. This is dealt with in Graduation. Now Buffy wouldn't kill most humans because as Giles said, humans are not inherently evil as vampires etc. But then this brings us to our next issue free will.

Buffy may justify her actions by saying vampire will kill people. They mostly do. But she kills a lot of them before they get to do so. Is this right? There are two issues to this. Killing a vampire as judgement becomes murky. Many vampires do not choose to become vampires but they take on characteristics of that species. However we know that killing them makes our world safer for us. (see The Wish). This does not necessarily equate to judging them, merely protecting our lives.

But if vampire pretty much are going to kill people, do they have free will? Well we all have some kind of psychological constraints. What about humans? How much free will do we have? Now Cassie Newton could tell the future. Does this mean the future is fixed? If you kill someone to prevent what they are definitely going to do, then they will not do it, so how can they be about to do something when they didn't end up doing it? If that were fixed then they wouldn't have been allowed to be killed because they would have to fulfill their destiny.

This makes Lindsay's deal difficult because if things are fixed, all that was going to happen is that he was going to die at the hands of Lorne. This also makes the whole deal of judging all of them difficult because no one has free will, we are all slaves to what we are going to do.

If we do have free will then Lindsay wasn't definitely going to do anything, because nothing is fixed. So what does Lorne read? If "nothing is written in stone" (Lorne's own words) then what future can Lorne possibly see. Well we know that Lorne can be described as an empath demon. So therefore what it's likely he reads, is people's intentions and inclination to do something. A sort of path but this path is changable, surely. Lindsay had bought into Holland Manners master/slave philosophy and if he sticks with it, he'll be that threat.

If Lorne can predict that Lindsay will do what he may do based upon his ability then it would save many lives. He can perhaps do it with the same certainty that Buffy can (and we've just justified her actions, just about) so maybe this may be the same thing: killing to save others but not judging that they have no right to life.

If we wait and let them do that thing or try to reason with them vainly (if we can see far enough to know that won't work, perhaps the same as believing a vampire cannot be reasoned with) then we would be responsible for letting the so called bad thing happen. It's a tight rope.






I, for one, don't question the fact that Angel really and truly thought he was saving lives - and that Lorne did, as well. But I'm bugged by "what if?" The team has used Lorne's insight to avoid disaster before. What if what Lorne saw could have been averted by some other means? By taking this action, Angel and Lorne sort of played God and vigilante all rolled into one.

Well having the gift that Lorne does and doing something based upon that knowledge in itself is playing beyond the scope of what is nomrally humanly possible. With technology and even medicine, we push these boundaries everyday. The unnatural becomes natural by it's very seeming mundaneness.



I think it was wrong. I think the ethically correct hero must always wait for the villain to actually do something wrong. Otherwise, the hero becomes just as bad as the villain.

We have the issue of cost and choice. If one has knowledge then we are responsible with what we do with it. If many are killed and we believe we could have done something to stop it becomes difficult, but if we take action without knowing something is an absolute certainty then again we have a moral problem.

If Angel is to believe in his mission then he has to be able to jusitify his actions as does Buffy. Any moral point can be argued, pulled apart and the mission statement has to be the core of what the hero is. If Angel really does believe in the 'end justifies the means' then was his power play speech a total fake out? Maybe it depends on whether a hero thinks the price for his mission statement is worth it. It remains to be seen whether Angel can justify the death of Drogyn and Lindsay.

[LadyLavinia]

I don't think that Angel had any real justification for ordering Lindsay's murder. I'm sorry, but since Lindsay had yet to become a real threat, it was nothing but cold blooded murder to me. And if I must be honest, I feel the same about those vampires that Buffy had killed - the ones who had yet to kill anyone. I don't see any justification in killing someone in cold blood, because they MIGHT be a future threat. Sometimes I feel that humans come up with many excuses to inflict their will upon others or indulge in their aggressiveness and blood lust.

[celestialarrow]

okay im not trying to attack anyone on this threat but you guys have to be naive if you think that angel didn't have the right to have lindsey killed just because he's a HUMAN. so what how many countless times has lindsey attempted to have angel and the fang gang killed. i mean the guy went away to find himself and as soon as he gets back not only do he manipulate certain events to have angel doubt himself but lindsey tries to kill angel lindsey would have turn on angel at anytime his whole purpose was to kill angel. sure he said he'd fight by angel's side but he would have turned in a heartbeat.

[Hello Cutie]

Lorne... for the reason's everyone else has said. :)

I feel for Lindsay too, because he was becoming an ally at that point, but more because the least he deserved was to be killed by Angel (as he pointed out), but for Angel to ask one of his closest friends to do something like that?? It's just not fair, and completely inconsiderate, given that Lorne doesnt like fighting and violence etc, let alone the empath in him being able to sense all the pain and hurt going through Lindsay, as well as whether or not he really was an ally, or if he was planning to turn on them (i.e. i think Lorne could tell Lindsay really was helping cuz he wanted to).

[palabravampiress]

okay im not trying to attack anyone on this threat but you guys have to be naive if you think that angel didn't have the right to have lindsey killed just because he's a HUMAN. so what how many countless times has lindsey attempted to have angel and the fang gang killed. i mean the guy went away to find himself and as soon as he gets back not only do he manipulate certain events to have angel doubt himself but lindsey tries to kill angel lindsey would have turn on angel at anytime his whole purpose was to kill angel. sure he said he'd fight by angel's side but he would have turned in a heartbeat.

The same could have been said of Faith, not too long ago.

[Fake Shemp]

LORNE!!!!! oh sweet lorne