Illyria, Tears

[TabulaRasa]

This thread will contain spoilers for anyone who has not seen the end of Angel season 5.







When Wesley dies Illyria takes Fred's form to comfort him. She starts to cry while holding him.
Do you think it was Illyria doing what Fred would have done in that situation? Or do you think Illyria had grown sad herself and the tears were real?

[VisionGuy]

I think the tears were from Illyria. When Wes died and Illyria was standing up to crush Vail's head in, she looked upset about his death. Then there's also that hard ass punch that caused Vail's head to explode. That had to be the anger.

[wiccianslayer]

Illyria obviously fell for wesley

[Cordelia Chase*]

It was Illyria crying. WIth all her mixed motions and still remembering Fred she cried.

[Dlou444]

Yep. I'm with everyone else. I think she really felt for Wesley. And it makes me happy.

Wanabee-slayer is the goddess of all that is pink and fluffy in the world

[white avenger]

Also, consider her very reason for being there. She cared enough about Wes to come to his assistance, knowing how over matched he was against Vail.

[TabulaRasa]

YAY I thought everyone was going to be cold and say she was just playing him up. I thought it was, and still do of course, Illyria. She loved Wesley. She made a lot of remarks about liking him and wanting him to like her etc. And then at the end where she felt grief for him and wanted to do more damage. I mean come one, clear indication right?!!

[Aussie]

yep i agree with everyone. definatly illyria tears.

[Xin Rong]

Yeah real tears I think or at least real emotion

[thegifting]

Both Fred and Illyria were crying.
The line where Fred ends and Illyria begins became very hazy, as even Fred's prefrences about the world came out of Illyria, and she was completely natural and accepting of it. (In either Power Play or Not Fade Away, Illyria tells Gunn that she doesn't find him unpleasent to her eyes.)
Beyond that, there's a lot of arguments that say that Illyria isn't still "Illyria". The Mutari Generator, sure. She even says that she is her power, implying anything less would be a different being.
Looking at text in the show, though, it's deeper than that. Much.
In "A Hole In The World", near the end of the episode, Fred is on her bed and begins hallucinating, points to Wesley and says "I'm with him!" After she calms down she takes Wesley's hand, places it on her heart, and says "He's with me." It's very clear to me that the demon god Illyria became tied to Wesley before she even destroyed Fred's soul by ressurecting, and becoming bound to Fred ("I could change it if I cared to", is what she said, I believe, in refrence to that subject).
Which, also, points to the notion that Fred and Illyria are one being. If you placed, say, a stack of paper of top of a pizza, inside of a box, then cooked it, would the ash not taint and be a factor in all the changes that would then occur to everything having to do with the pizza?
The paper would be Fred's soul, the pizza is capacity of life, the box is the physical shell, and the oven is Illyria. Even though Fred's soul may have been burnt, as paper would be, all that Illyria was changed the moment she clawed her way into Fred's body, becoming saturated with not just humanity- but the humanity of Winifred Burkle.

I could continue on, but, in summation, I believe the continued existance of both Fred and Illyria makes them reliant on one another, and the tears were from them both.

[Scythus]

Both Fred and Illyria were crying.
The line where Fred ends and Illyria begins became very hazy, as even Fred's prefrences about the world came out of Illyria, and she was completely natural and accepting of it. (In either Power Play or Not Fade Away, Illyria tells Gunn that she doesn't find him unpleasent to her eyes.)
Beyond that, there's a lot of arguments that say that Illyria isn't still "Illyria". The Mutari Generator, sure. She even says that she is her power, implying anything less would be a different being.
Looking at text in the show, though, it's deeper than that. Much.
In "A Hole In The World", near the end of the episode, Fred is on her bed and begins hallucinating, points to Wesley and says "I'm with him!" After she calms down she takes Wesley's hand, places it on her heart, and says "He's with me." It's very clear to me that the demon god Illyria became tied to Wesley before she even destroyed Fred's soul by ressurecting, and becoming bound to Fred ("I could change it if I cared to", is what she said, I believe, in refrence to that subject).
Which, also, points to the notion that Fred and Illyria are one being. If you placed, say, a stack of paper of top of a pizza, inside of a box, then cooked it, would the ash not taint and be a factor in all the changes that would then occur to everything having to do with the pizza?
The paper would be Fred's soul, the pizza is capacity of life, the box is the physical shell, and the oven is Illyria. Even though Fred's soul may have been burnt, as paper would be, all that Illyria was changed the moment she clawed her way into Fred's body, becoming saturated with not just humanity- but the humanity of Winifred Burkle.

I could continue on, but, in summation, I believe the continued existance of both Fred and Illyria makes them reliant on one another, and the tears were from them both.

i agree, i think it was mostly Illyria but i do think that at least some of fred had been imprinted onto her, maybe it was that that allowed Illyria to develop feelings for Wesley. i enjoyed watchin the bond between Wes and Illyria grow

[white avenger]

I'm not sure if Illyria actually "loved" Wes in the time leading up to his death, but Fred certainly did, and I don't think anyone can deny that her personality was beginning to reassert itself by the end of the season. Whether it would have eventually become dominant, established a more or less symbiotic relationship with Illyria, or remain subjugated by Illyria is anyone's guess. I know that there were plans in the televised Season 6 to separate the two entities, having Amy play a double role, but I have no idea whether that idea is still in the works or not. If it were, I would like to see Fred go over to Buffy and be with Willow, even if only as close friends, and keep Illyria with Spike and Angel (Ideally, Faith could come over, get with Spike, and they and Illyria could...) It would give Angel one more thing to brood about.

[Ashxking]

Ive though of Wes as Illyrias new Korhasan (sp) he did kill Knox. She could have liked that. Killing for your own reason. Be it love or Power. I think thats what drew her to Wes then slowly the feelings Fred had came to the surfice

[EveryNiteISaveU]

I absolutely loved the transformation from Fred back to Illyria during "not fade away" when she stands up and turns back into Illyria mid-punch and completely dessamates Veil's head giving him what he deserves. That part's a definite multiple re-play part in my opinion!!

[DrusillaRox]

Poor Illyria...she was making the transformation of humanity and her mentor dies...also...he loved fred....that must've hurt

[pernilleborup]

I can't stay away from spoilers with a thread name like that... :P

I have only seen a bit of Illyria, but the thought of crying is weird.. And strangely enough likeable

[Veyron]

I think that Illyeria and Fred where more intertwined than Illyeria would have us believe.

When Fred's parents turn up unexpected at W&H and Fred turns up to greet them, nobody but Wesley bats an eye-lid - and I personally thought that was quite strange at the time, but upon reading this thread and giving it some thought, it kinda makes sense now.

Illyeria claimed that Fred was utterly destroyed during the process she used to inhabit her new body, but I don't think that that's the case 100%; Fred maybe dead, but her spirit lives on in Illyeria even if her soul was lost.

[hannahfngrl26]

I definitely think it was Illyria crying. Through out their relationship she became more and more suceptable to his mood and how he was acting. I think in her own way she began to care for him. Those tears were hers and she even mentions at the end of the episode that her greef is making wanting to kill more things or some such thing.

[Bored of the Dead]

I feel that everyone who believes Illyria was crying actually just want to hope that it was true.

I don't think it was Illyria crying.

I DO believe that she had grown to tolerate Wesley, even admire and like him BUT I think that the tears were there because that is EXACTLY what Fred would do.

It doesn't take anything away from that scene, in fact it shows Illyria to be understanding about what it means to be human that she can do something so wonderful for someone she cares about.

Illyria was being Fred, but I don't think that the tears were hers.

[EveryNiteISaveU]

I think that Illyeria and Fred where more intertwined than Illyeria would have us believe.

When Fred's parents turn up unexpected at W&H and Fred turns up to greet them, nobody but Wesley bats an eye-lid - and I personally thought that was quite strange at the time, but upon reading this thread and giving it some thought, it kinda makes sense now.

Illyeria claimed that Fred was utterly destroyed during the process she used to inhabit her new body, but I don't think that that's the case 100%; Fred maybe dead, but her spirit lives on in Illyeria even if her soul was lost.

I know! I also found it weird that they were all trapsing around the office tra-la-la and nobody noticed that "Fred" was back?! Wesley's so hot when hes pist off tho...

[Darling]

I think is Illyria crying... the same way in the last moment she says something about feeling pain, grief. She was really having emotions

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

This is how i just read that scene watching it for the first time... at first, i thought it was just her doing what fred would do, but those last tears after wes passes, before she gets up to turn, seemed to be her. i dont know why i saw it that way, but i did.

and idont think she loved him either. she had no concept of love. I think she grew fond of him as her guide, to find someone who was willing to help her, and to lose pretty much her only connection to humanity, as in, the only link she had to teach her about humans and what it is to feel.

[LifeIsJustThis]

It was Illyria crying. WIth all her mixed motions and still remembering Fred she cried.
By the way, I love your banner!!! Very cool :) That's the University of Notre Dame badge, right?

I agree that is Illyria crying. I think she'd absorbed some human emotion after hanging around with them for so long :)

[itsxpaperdoll]

I DO believe that she had grown to tolerate Wesley, even admire and like him BUT I think that the tears were there because that is EXACTLY what Fred would do.

It doesn't take anything away from that scene, in fact it shows Illyria to be understanding about what it means to be human that she can do something so wonderful for someone she cares about.


I think I must agree with this: Illyria most definitely felt grief and everything when Wes died, hence the extreme asskicking Vail received. But the crying was, as I saw it, part of her Fred act. Which doesn't make it less beautiful, since, like BotD says, she did something extremely nice for someone she really cares about.

[PurplePoof]

I think it was bad writing just like the rest of the season, notably excluding You're Welcome...

:D