Who's side would you have been on...?

[Buffy obsessed fan]

In Empty Places, the Scoobies and potentials all kicked Buffy out, and yeah, she was being a bit of a bitca [[My one time in life I get to use that word without people thinking I'm nuts...:D]], but she knew what she was doing, she was the slayer, she did care about everyone she just knew she was going to lose people in the battle. Faith isn't exactly leader material, either. I get where the others were coming from, sort of, but to be honest, if I'd have been stood in that room, I probably would have stuck up for Buffy...I mean, she was more experienced than everyone else right...? Feel free to disagree with me, just don't make me feel small and pathetic in the process, please :p

[white avenger]

Buffy was their commander. They had recognized and accepted that up until that time, and had no reason to blame her for the events occurring in the vineyard. At the very most, any dissenters should have left and found their own base of operations instead of running Buffy out of the home she had worked and paid for ever since her mother's death ("Buffy, I love you, but this is my home too," to the contrary, Dawn had contributed not one red cent to the everyday expenses of maintaining "her" home, so should have had no say whatsoever in the argument). To be blunt as well as accurate, everyone else was, as Anya so accurately put it, "cannon fodder" at the worst, and subordinate advisers at the best. Buffy was the commander by right of both seniority and experience and had been accepted as such up until that moment. "When the going gets tough, the army deserts" isn't just a misquote, it's mutiny and desertion under fire, both offenses being punishable in wartime conditions by death, and no one could possibly believe that Sunnydale was anything less than a war zone at that time.

Of the entire group, the only one there who did the proper thing was Faith, by pointing out immediately that she had no desire whatsoever to replace Buffy as commander, and stepping into that role only to fill the vacuum left by their real leader. Of course, the concept of mutiny was so attractive to the group by then that when Faith led them into their second battle, resulting, as the first one had, in casualties, they were just as eager to oust her from the leader's role. Who, I wonder, would have been the third commander if Buffy hadn't returned?

[justanotherjen]

I would have sided with the Scoobies, not because I thought they were right in what they did but because I tend to follow the crowd (baaa, I'm such a sheep, lol). They had a point--Buffy didn't appear to be thinking clearly and was taking risks with their lives that they didn't agree on or seem to have any say in but they went about confronting her all wrong.

I would have been the one in the back mumbling about how wrong the whole thing was but not stopping Buffy from leaving and then reluctantly following Faith with as little conviction as I had given crazy Buffy.

[SpikedBuffy]

Good thread. Well, I have always hated this scene in season 7. I would've probably stuck up for her. I understand that every one in a while, leaders might need to be questioned about their thinking processes and execution of plans, but the questioning should not lead to an immediate overthrow of power. It should lead to much conversation.

If you remember, Buffy said she was willing to talk strategy and plans to help everyone through it. The other members of the group were the ones who hastily made the rash decision to listen to their fear instead of talking through the issue and working together.

[GATEGOD]

I would have walked out with Buffy. I've always believed the Scoobies were wrong, and when Spike came back and told them off it only drove home the point for me even more. I'm with Buffy.

[LilFirecracker]

I love faith (obviously lol) but i definitely would have sided with buffy. The whole situation just seemed to be handled awfully. First of all i didnt feel that they had the right to kick Buffy out because if it wasnt for her half of them wouldnt be alive! and second of all instead of kicking her out they could have just told her straight up that she was being kinda bitchy instead of acting so drastically. Also, that scene with spike was pretty awesome lol

[sosa lola]

I agree with this answer:

"When watching S7, I actually saw Buffy's banishment coming and was expecting a mutiny at some point later in the season. To be honest, I would've been dissappointed if nothing had happened because the whole season was building up to it. Like many others here, I think the scene itself was awkwardly written and less-than-perfectly executed but I think it had to happen given the way Buffy behaves during the season.

I'm not saying she had it coming really, or that it was totally her fault. Rather, she had to start leading a considerably larger group of people than she had before most of whom she didn't even know, and she didn't know how to deal with the situation so it led to her detaching herself from the others more and taking a superior position. Her attitude started irritating the people around her because I think she started increasingly clearly indicating by her behavior towards others that she's better than them and that they should just do whatever she says because she knows best. She probably did it subconsciously since it was exactly what she had been afraid of for a long time, according to her conversation with Holden in "Conversations with Dead People". All in all, I think Buffy is incredibly well and consistently written during S7, and though I did feel sorry for her in "Empty Places", I think it was bound to happen and in the end a good thing for Buffy herself.

Her dialogue in the end scene shows to me just how far she's come and why it was necessary that she'd have some perspective forced upon her. I don't think her plan to go back to the vineyard was that bad but the way she wasn't ready to consider or even hear what the others might have to say was so indiscreet and arrogant that it was bound to get a bad reaction. And when that reaction came she was utterly surprised that someone would question her ultimate leadership, even her friends who were supposed to know better. Her perception of the situation was extremely one-sided, just everyone betraying her when she had just been trying to do the job everyone had pushed onto her without a second thought. I don't feel it was her fault that she handled the new situation badly but it doesn't change the fact that she did.

Her line about Faith leading the others into a disaster is an especially cruel one since it basically means that Faith will inevitably fail no matter what she does and is a bad leader unlike Buffy herself. It's unfair because Faith hadn't actually promoted herself as the leader and still Buffy started blindly throwing such mean comments about her skills. Even so, she ignores the fact that she had just returned from leading everyone into a disaster herself. Of course it's a very natural thing to do, start blaming others as self-defence, but her comment must've stung Faith pretty hard in that situation. I also think the line embodies the way Buffy has become, instead of "The Slayer Who Has Friends", "The Slayer Who Has Lots Of People Living In Her House".

And while talking about Faith, I don't think for a second the others were suggesting that her right to be the leader was just as big as Buffy's was because they were ready to accept her as the leader. It was simply a way to prop up their criticism of Buffy, to have something concrete to stand up to her with.

As for the lack of apologies later on, I don't think the situation called for them. They might've not been completely okay with each other but I think Buffy had as much to apologize as the others, and so they could pretty much call it even since I believe that both parties started to understand what they had done wrong." by Arana.

[Fake Shemp]

yeah it was harsh but buffy needed that to happen to her, she would never have gotten over herself and moved forward otherwise imo

[Joyce Summers]

I think I would have ended up being compromise-y girl.

Buffy, in my opinion, was making the most sense. I'm a fighter by nature (not in a 'i'll pop your eyeballs for no reason' kinda way....haha) and so what she was saying reached me. It did make sense that there was something there and the only way they could turn everything round, get the upper hand, was to go there and get it.

However, last time she tried the go-get routine several of them died and poor Xander lost an eye, so I understand why they'd be so reluctant to go in guns blazing yet again.

So I would have stood up for Buffy when everyone started trying to out her, because she knows what she's doing, she is experienced, and like Xander said about how 'if you don't trust her then you can ride the little bus to battle'. Buffy is a leader, *the* leader in fact and following what she has to say is rarely the wrong thing to do.
But as Buffy was raring to go straight away I would have probably been like 'okay, so we do this but let's think this through properly'. Devise a strategy before going attacking all willy-nilly. Hehehe.

But I do think it was definitely a feel-good 'aha!' moment when after they kicked her out she's the one that saves their butts from the UberVamps with the shiny new axe-stake thing. Hehe

[Aussie]

I think I am a wimp and would have been long gone from sunnydale before any of this happened!

[bob6666]

first buffy was getting child sorport for dawn
second she lost her job xander and maybe giles where paying the bills


you in charge becouse we want you to be, we dont want you in charge you not. that is how leadership works.

she want to go to the vien yard becouse she wanted to kill calab for hurting xander, who plan was supid, and they only kick her out becouse she said i wont stay if i not in charge.

[Allycat]

When this episode first came out, I was at a point were I sort of disliked the character of Buffy, so I cheered very hard when this happened. When I rewatched the whole series in like a month, I grew to love the character more and more, and I began to feel that what happened here was extremely unfair. The Scoobies hadn't the right to do it, because even if she'd made a wrong judgement call before, she'd been right about what to do so often and she had saved their lives time and again, that they just needed to have a little faith and give her the benefit of the doubt. The Potentials, not having been there very long and barely having any experience in the matter, shouldn't have a say in the matter at all.

[Joyce Summers]

The Potentials, not having been there very long and barely having any experience in the matter, shouldn't have a say in the matter at all.

That was my feeling. I mean I don't the situation would have escalated there as much as it did if it wasn't for the Potentials. If it had just been Buffy and the Scoobies they would have probably just ended up talking through it all, the problems, the disagreements etc. But the Potentials almost seemed to be egging the situation on, especially Rona. And I was thinking throughout the entire scene 'Hello? You've been here like three weeks. You're of no help whatsoever except for complaining, whining and getting scared. Only one or two of you can hit anything, Buffy and the others have been doing this way longer than you and know what they're doing so just shut up!'. Whoa, I really tuned into how I felt watching that scene then. But yes, it did get me very annoyed.

[Hello Cutie]

Ahh see this is where I get torn in two...

I mean, yeah Buffy was being a total B.I.T.C.H. and stuff, yet, its kinda her job.... she's not asked for everyone to rely on her, she's always been forced to lead, since day 1, so she takes it on and does the best she can... and yeah she was being hard on them, and maybe not necessarily taking their feelings into account and stuff, but thats what a leader does, separates themselves in order to lead better... being too emotionally involved clouds your judgement in cases like that.

But, saying that, if I was actually there (lets pretend for a moment I'm a potential, and so its my ass on the line here) I'd have probably kicked her out. In this senario all I'd be seeing is how she didn't care whether we lived or died, not really, at it was all about throwing us to the wolves, as it were, while we're scared of dying and everything that's out to get us.

Also, removing myself from it for a moment, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and throwing her out was probably one of the best things they could have done for her.. and ultimately for themselves!

The one other thing I have to add though, is I was totally disgusted when Dawn told her to leave... that girl is the most irritating character in Buffy... she's whiney, wimpy and altogether annoying... and then she goes and kicks her out... im sorry, who pays for her to live in the house?? Who's house is it really?? Cuz it sure as hell ain't Dawn... if I was Buffy, that'd be the worst bit of the whole thing, that her own little sister told her to leave, and her best friends and mentor didn't stop her.

[Blondie Bear]

first buffy was getting child sorport for dawn
second she lost her job xander and maybe giles where paying the bills


you in charge becouse we want you to be, we dont want you in charge you not. that is how leadership works.

she want to go to the vien yard becouse she wanted to kill calab for hurting xander, who plan was supid, and they only kick her out becouse she said i wont stay if i not in charge.

Okay, I had to do some deciphering here, but let me react to what I think I hear you saying.

"First, Buffy was getting child support for Dawn. Second, she lost her job; Xander and maybe Giles were paying the bills."

1. When does anyone say that Buffy's getting child support? Where would she be getting it from? I don't see Hank paying any child support; he's too busy "living the cliche" as Buffy said. And even if she was, that still doesn't mean that DAWN is contributing to household expenses.

2. By the time she lost her job, there was hardly anybody left in town to collect on bills, and again, we NEVER heard that Xander and/or Giles were pitching in to help with the expenses.

"You're in charge because we want you to be; if we don't want you in charge, you're not. That's how leadership works."

No. It's not. Any Poli-Sci class will teach you that.

"She wanted to go to the vineyard because she wanted to kill Caleb for hurting Xander, which was a stupid plan, and they only kick her out because she says 'I won't stay if I'm not in charge.'"

1. She wanted to go to the vineyard because she knew Caleb had something there that was important, NOT because of anything having to do with Xander.

2. She didn't say "I won't stay if I'm not in charge," she said, "I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster." Buffy knew Faith. How many times did we see Faith leap first and look later? She knew that Faith would do the same thing even with the Potentials, because Buffy had been leading them as if she was alone, too. Buffy KNEW it would be horrendous if Faith was given the reins, and she didn't want to see it happen. Dawn was the one who decided that meant Buffy had to leave.

I'm not saying Buffy was right about everything, but I AM saying that she didn't deserve the treatment she got from the Potentials, the Scoobies, and especially Dawn.

[Keanoite]

I was recenetly in a situation like this...ok so I wasn't trying to stop the apocolypse (thats next week;)) but I was in a position where I had to fall in line with a leader who in my opinon wasn't being very leadery at all. In fact several of us felt that she was totally abusing her power, that she hadn't a clue what she was doing, refused to listen to any and all suggestions and basically was shite!

Thing is, she wasn't any of those things. She was actually doing everything that she was supposed to do. Making the hard decisions, working the long hours and generally busting her arse off. She was being a leader, that was her job and it was Buffy's too.

I have said it before and I will say it again what happened in that episode was mutiny, plain and simple. Buffy had earned their trust and so much more and her friends and family left her down. They should have had her back not stuck knifes in it. They allowed the Potentials hysteria develope into something that very nearly killed them all.

I would have been with Buffy, same way I stuck by my leader-type-person in real life. I may not have liked the sitiation at the time but I knew its was the right thing to do. Buffy always always gets the job done. The scoobies knew that but they left her be hung out to dry.

[Kana]

I thought I'd posted here. I think I would have been on Faith's etc side. I wouldn't have been as vocal as say Rona but I'd have voiced my concerns. I've done that in recent times, in fact I was raised to think like that. I think Buffy did her best but that doesn't mean I'd necessarily follow her simply out of loyalty.

The great thing about Buffy in this episode is that, although some people think she was simply 'kicked out' or that she 'kicked herself out', I actually think there was something noble in Buffy stepping aside. She could have been really spiteful to Faith but she wasn't. This proves to me that Buffy really was thinking about the mission. She made mistakes, sure and I think on some level she couldn't even reconcile herself with her actions. Buffy is great hero but she's also a young human being and an emotional one at that. She's not perfect and this was a stressful situation. I cannot blame the others too much for the same reason. Those who didn't know Buffy didn't know if she could get them through alive. Those who did either wondered if Buffy's 'style' could cut it or werw worried that Buffy's instincts (her prime asset) were failing her now. I'd have to say I wouldn't be against Buffy as such but I'd be worried that her 'gut feelings' were in the best interest of the group.

[white avenger]

Miss K and I might not agree about some relationships within the Buffyverse, but on this issue, we are complete agreement. I would go so far as to point out that this was a military situation, everyone had accepted Buffy as their commander long before this episode, and mutiny under fire is a crime.

[Kana]

I'm not sure if it's as simple as that. It's not strictly speaking a military situation as I understand it. The Scoobies work in as a part of an 'informal organization'. Eversince Buffy quite the council, even though they have seemed to accept Buffy as the leader, there have been some issues with authority as Buffy has have never been formally appointed as a leader with strict insistence of the adherence of some kind of jurisdiction. This is not only an issue with the scoobies, what about Angel vs Buffy in Sanctuary? The only people who decide what is a 'crime' is the organization as a whole. Willow actually argued that Buffy being Slayer does automatically make her the boss. The issues of leadership were never straight foward or ultimately decided. Maybe they should have been, (like AI in a way). So it makes things a little murky.

[Keanoite]

Buffy had esteblished herself as leader of the Sunnydale crew, I really doubt anyone can argue that. I too would see it from a miliatry frame of mind but even if you don't a leader is still a leader, whether that be in an army or just a chairperson of a book club! Someon has to be incharge and make the decisions that nobody else is willing to make. Up until that point they had all taken orders from Buffy and worked off her cue. To me that shows thatb she was THE leader of that group and their dissent insiode that room was a mutiny, I can't call it anything else. The Potentials and the Scoobies made Buffy walk the plank.

[Bangelxx]

Believe it or not, I agreed more with the scoobies. Don't pounce on me here. She just was being too hard on the rest of the gang and it wasn't fair to them. as anya said " You're not better then us, you're just luckier than us." which is so true, in my opinion. Buffy seemed to think that she was in control, and that she didn't need to take into account, the feelings of others.
I also thought that the scoobies and Buffy could come up with more of a comprimise. I thought Buffy could accept the fact that others could lead as well. they didn't need to kick her out.
I really enjoyed this episode because it reflected real life in a lot of ways. Like fights with friends for example, which i can understand very well.

[white avenger]

This si getting to be argued almost as Bangel vs Spuffy, and with even less chance of ever being resolved. Okay, are we all in agreement that up until the moment in question, call it rebellion or revolution, it really doesn't matter, Buffy was accepted as the protector, the provider, and the person in charge of organizing and training all of the Potentials as Giles gathered and delivered them? (Nod your heads here. Thank you) Now, can we all agree that there was a real, honest to goodness war going on in Sunnydale between the forces of the First Evil and the defenders of all that is good, embodied by the aforementioned Slayer and her friends and charges? (Nod again here, please.) We're all in agreement so far, right. Good.

Now, by definition, a group of fighters joined together to fight a common foe constitute an army. Okay? (Another nod at this moment would be appreciated) Also by definition, the person responsible for and in charge of such an army is called the commander. Do you see how cleverly I have worked this around to supporting my argument? (Another nod, but you may begin to grumble a bit now) When an army rebels against or refuses to follow the orders of its commander, the act is, by definition, mutiny. In time of war, which it has been established that this is, anyone who commits mutiny may be punished by up to and including death.

That is the situation in "Empty Places." An army rebelled against the legal orders of its commander. Legal orders do not include any guarantee that everyone will come home alive, or even that anyone will come back. Legal orders are simply the orders that advance the cause for which the army fights. Leonidas gave legal orders when he ordered his men to hold the pass at Thermopalae. William Barrett Travis gave legal orders when he ordered his men to man the walls at the Alamo. Buffy Summers gave legal orders when she ordered her troops to follow her back to the vineyard. Commanders lead armies. Committees debate. Armies get the job done. Debaters do a lot of talking but do very little.

When Buffy left, her army deteriorated into a committee, and only succeeded in getting people killed or injured unnecessarily. Ironically, of all of the greatest critics of Buffy's command, the leaders of the mutiny, were safely back at Slayer Central when all of the death and destruction took place. They were probably still debating the situation. (There are scattered nods, a small amount of applause, and several staunce detractors most definitely grumbling. I even hear a growl or two.)

My rant is finished.

[CharmedSlayer85]

I don't know what I would have done cause I wasn't there, however I must say that I think the way they reacted was a little natural, afterall they followed Buffy to the vineyard and many of the potentials died and Xander lost his eye and she wanted to run back to that same location again, so of course the gang was a little taken aback, however of course you can say in hindsight she ended up being completely right, but I think her initial way of going about it was wrong.

[white avenger]

I don't know what I would have done cause I wasn't there, however I must say that I think the way they reacted was a little natural, afterall they followed Buffy to the vineyard and many of the potentials died and Xander lost his eye and she wanted to run back to that same location again, so of course the gang was a little taken aback, however of course you can say in hindsight she ended up being completely right, but I think her initial way of going about it was wrong.



The way that they felt was most certainly "natural," and I would even go so far as to say understandable. No sane person goes into harm's way willingly just for the sake of going. Those who do so go because of duty, the same duty that had compelled Buffy to do that exact same thing every day for the past seven years, almost always alone or with a single partner. The Potentials and Buffy's friends had for the most part sat safely at home while she did all of the fighting and took all of the risks, including a the time when she was almost killed by the Turok Han. Even after that, except for Spike, no one stepped up to say, "I'll cover your back," even her friends, who were experienced fighters.

One of the greatest detractors among the Potentials literally owed her life to Buffy going out, once more alone, to save her from the First Evil's Bringers. Remember, "Ding dong, the witch is dead"? More accurately, Rona might have said, "Ding dong, THE GIRL I OWE MY LIFE TO has been betrayed."

An army does not abandon an objective simply because the enemy repels the first assault, they attack again, and again, and keep on attacking until they are successful or until their commander adopts a new strategy. Yes, people may die, they almost certainly WILL die. That's where that thing called "duty" comes in. Were those Potentials too young to have to face such a fate? Buffy wasn't. Remember, at the tender age of 15, she did exactly that. She went, ALONE, to face a monster who she KNEW was going to kill her, because of that "duty" thing. It just keeps popping up.

The ultimate argument, of course, is that the betrayed commander was vindicated when she went back to the vineyard ALONE AS USUAL, and got what she was looking for.

Once more, I return to the single, final argument: armies are lead by commanders, not committees, and a military group is most certainly NOT a democracy.

[Bangelxx]

Yeah, I also agree with what WA said. When Rona said "ding dong the witch is dead" I just wanted to take an axe and chop off her head! Buffy saved her life for god's sake! Couldn't she be the least bit grateful for that?!

[bob6666]

the first think you have to remember she said know is watching my back. excempt spike i would be piss that the person i spent the last 7 years fighting with said that to me.

buffy did not know shit. she thought there was something at the vienyard. the fact the calb told her "i have somethink of yours" and then dare her to attack him after xander eye the scobies were right it was a trap.

it was stupied for them to go back there. with faith in charge or not.

buffy was not listening to anyone but spike. so they either kick her or or everybody leaves. i think they were hoping she would stop acting like the leader and talk to them. there only win when they are togeter.

those that say buffy right so much buffy **** us all the time. she is only right when she works with her friends

S1 xander saves her life
S2 spike, willow and xander lie save her life
s3 xander help when
S4 xander gile and willow and buffy beat adam
S5 xander willow spike giles and buffy beat goly
S6 xander

how many fight did they show where some save her life, so this i am alone crap is just wrong. faith is her equal is power willow is the most power witch in the world, giles has 40 years of deamon knowagele and anya has 1000 to not at least listen is stupid.

and yes it is true you lead becouse we want you to. if we belive you are makeing a bad desion we have the right that leader ship away. there have been many time in history a king general, or army leader had his men turn on him becosue is plan was so stupid they had know choice. what good is a leader when know will follow.

if buffy would have talk to them before hand it would never have good this far.

[Xin Rong]

I would have sided with the scoobies, one because I personally don't like taking orders and would especially hate to not have my opinion taken into account ever. I think many people have idealised buffy and thats why they think she was in the right, people are forgetting that shes human and can be fallible, shes not omnipotent.

Also in my eyes Giles should have had a more important role, he was the oldest and most knowledgeable about all thinks demonic, strategy etc etc afterall that is what he was trained to do. Afterall buffy may have had the most experience leading the scoobies against your run of the mill evil beings but in the past they always contributed and usually had pivatol roles to play and some great ideas, whereas as in this season buffy doesn't value their input at all and dismisses them regularly.

However the situation in series 7 was completely different, everyone was out of their element, buffy had no experience in leading such a lage group of people against an enemy as powerful as the first, no one did. But at least giles would have been intelligent and would have had necessary knowledge and training in leadership, at the very least he should have been considered more important in an advisory capacity, especially over someone like spike.

Also I think it was something that needed to happen, buffy had gone so long without being challenged and followed so readily that she had forgotten that a leader needed to be respected and that respect has to be earnt. You can't really blame the potentials for not immediately following her lead when all they knew of her were stories and to be honest she didnt really give them that much attention.

Buffy was behaving in the same way she had once hated the council behaving. She expected her authority to be recognised and conceded to because that was the way it had always been. And she saw the potentials and her friends objectively as tool and not as real people. I know everyones going to go mad at this but these are my thoughts and I personally think they are valid, well naturally lol

[white avenger]

Okay, when Buffy said that no one was watching her back, that was a poor choice of words. Everyone was watching her back, usually from a safe distance. Spike, on the other hand, was PROTECTING her back, helping her fight. Giles was usually away hunting other Potentials, Willow and Dawn were doing research, Xander was taking care of household repairs, and the Potentials were training and bitching about it.

As far as Buffy not knowing what was at the vineyard, you are right, she didn't, and she had no business bringing a bunch of inexperienced girls into that situation. Whose idea was that in the first place? Robin's, not Buffy's. After the first battle at the vineyard, Buffy realized that there actually was something there, otherwise the Bringers and Caleb would not be there guarding the place.m She was right. That's where the Scythe was. If she had not returned when she did, the First's people would have had it, and the rest of the season would have been us watching Caleb and the Bringers slaughter the Potentials, the Scoobies, the Watcher, the Slayers...I think you get the idea.

I halfway agree with your next statement. The dissenters should have left if they didn't want to follow orders. It was HER home, not theirs. They were guests, and guests can not evict the owner. And she was not ACTING like the leader, she WAS the leader.

As for how many times Buffy's life has been saved by her friends, she has saved each and every one of theirs at least a dozen times, so I think that the scale still tilts way over in her favor.

Faith MAY be Buffy's equal in power, but most certainly is NOT her equal in experience. Buffy has been on the hellmouth fighting evil for seven years, and at least a few months prior to that in Los Angeles. Faith was there for less than one year, and spent the rest of the time in prison. No Slaying experience there.

Giles and Anya might have had more knowledge of demons than Buffy, but they never used any of that knowledge for anything but research. They left the fighting to Buffy.

And, yes, I must agree with you again concerning the incidences of soldiers rebelling against their commanders. If their decision was right, they were called heroes and patriots. If they were wrong, they were called traitors. Buffy was right in believing that Caleb did, in fact, have something of hers at the vineyard (the Scythe, which, with the amulet Spike wore, won the battle). So, let's see, Buffy was right, and her army rebelled against her. I guess that makes them traitors, doesn't it?

And finally, Buffy DID offer to talk to the group, to discuss strategy and tactics, but they refused. Once again, there's that "traitor" thing...

[xgirlanachronism245x]

So I'm flipping through this thread and I see a lot of great points. But I think the thing about situations like this is that there aren't really sides to be on.
Both the Scoobs and Buffy had their points, what with Buffy's detachment and Faith's history, but I feel that the entire matter was approached and dealt with in the wrong way.

Since Season One, with Jesse getting turned and such, Willow, Xander, and Giles have all followed Buffy's lead with little questioning. She is, after all, the Chosen one. The one with the skill and the strength alone to... you get it. That line right there gives her superiority, because she is Chosen by the Powers-That-Sit-On-Their-Butts to be the ONLY one who can make the tough choices and save the freaking world. I think somewhere along the lines the Scoobs forgot about that. The only reason Faith is even in the picture is because Buffy died, as did Kendra. On the Scoobies watch mind you. So they aren't exactly known for having the best laid plans.

Neither is Buffy, though. But I really think the conflict here starts long before the threat of Caleb and the First even popped up. The Scoobs were constantly questioning her judgement in later seasons, a la Season 5 and 6. We see a lot of that there.

Buffy was put in a situation that was a considerable amount of pressure to her. She had never led this many people before, and in fact, she was never meant to. She was supposed to be alone, with no one but her watcher(who hasn't made a lot of good decisions in the past) to constantly save the world, and when she died another took her place.

The Scoobies were right to confront her, she wasn't thinking clearly, but they shouldn't have questioned her birth-right in front of the potentials and such. In fact, a private Scooby meeting should have been held. Chaos could have broken out so easily, because in how they did confronther, she was left open for the potentials to chime in with their two cents about things they didn't even know. Those who do not like it, do not have to stay. It is not thier duty, it's Buffy's. They Scoobs presented her with help, that was not equal but aided to her own strength and skill. They presented her with inferior help, so she assumed the superior role. Such is life. Buffy was accustomed to being followed with little questioning and getting the respect she deserved. Seven years is a mighty long time to be dealing with being a Slayer and a "normal" friend. I'm surprised it didn't happen in Season 4, or earlier.

My point really is that both sides had it's points, but ultimately Buffy was made the leader when they brought her back from heaven. That was them saying, "We can't do this without you. We need a leader." They got what they asked for, before they realized what it entailed. They put themselves in the position to be her "army", but mutinied against her when they suffered casualites. In my opinion, they were begging for it.

Side notes:

Faith, in my opinion, will never be equal to Buffy in strength or experience. She will always be second best. Now I adore her, but Faith is too much of a loose cannon to take on the role that Buffy was forced into.

Buffy sacrificed her LIFE to save the world. The least the Scoobs could do was to not make her look like a fool in front of the potentials.

Dawn? The nerve! Buffy jumped from a tower to save her butt and she kicks her out? Sisterly love my... you get the picture.

And the word traitor is used too generally. A mistake was made, albeit on that could have resulted in disaster, but it was rectified. But not completely. I don't imagine the relationships between Buffy and the gang will ever be quite the same... but I haven't read the comics yet...

Forgive me. I'm still fresh from seeing Season 7 for the first time. :)

[sosa lola]

I don't imagine the relationships between Buffy and the gang will ever be quite the same... but I haven't read the comics yet...:)

Only Buffy and Xander have a tight friendship, which I think it was there in S7 (see kitchen scene in End of Days and they way they held each other's hands and looked at each other in Chosen), but Buffy's friendship with others isn't the same again, as you said.

[bradlee]

I think I would have been the 'lets think rationally people." person. I don't think it's wise to kick Buffy out but I do think that maybe we need to slow her down and get her to think clearly.

[sizzle-sozzle]

ok so ive just watched this epsiode earlier for about the millionth time and i still find the scene where they kick buffy out hard to watch.i think everyone had a valid point and if they had just lstened to eachother and not given an ultimatum to each side they could have made an agreement on something.i think buffy was unwilling to listen to other peoples ideas on how to approach things,but i also think the others just gave up on buffy and had made their mind up on not wantin to listen to buffy,but i think it was totally unfair for them to even try and kick her out let alone actually suceed in it,its like the last 7 years meant nothing to the gang,and they've all been through tht they could just do that.

[nerd4hire]

I would soooooo have been on Buffy's side. Something people too often miss in all this. Buffy turned out to be right.

I would have held Spike's coat for him when he smacked out Faith. I would have helped Faith up though.

[Xin Rong]

I would soooooo have been on Buffy's side. Something people too often miss in all this. Buffy turned out to be right.

I would have held Spike's coat for him when he smacked out Faith. I would have helped Faith up though.

She was right in the sense that something at the vineyard, but would have been wrong in taking the potentials to their deaths once again, force wasn't needed as she proved it was stealth

[sosa lola]

She was right in the sense that something at the vineyard, but would have been wrong in taking the potentials to their deaths once again, force wasn't needed as she proved it was stealth

I agree. Buffy was right that something was there, but I think her plan to get it sucks. The Scoobies were right that they needed a better plan, but the way they gave up on Buffy sucked.

[PhenixRising]

This si getting to be argued almost as Bangel vs Spuffy, and with even less chance of ever being resolved. Okay, are we all in agreement that up until the moment in question, call it rebellion or revolution, it really doesn't matter, Buffy was accepted as the protector, the provider, and the person in charge of organizing and training all of the Potentials as Giles gathered and delivered them? (Nod your heads here. Thank you) Now, can we all agree that there was a real, honest to goodness war going on in Sunnydale between the forces of the First Evil and the defenders of all that is good, embodied by the aforementioned Slayer and her friends and charges? (Nod again here, please.) We're all in agreement so far, right. Good.

Now, by definition, a group of fighters joined together to fight a common foe constitute an army. Okay? (Another nod at this moment would be appreciated) Also by definition, the person responsible for and in charge of such an army is called the commander. Do you see how cleverly I have worked this around to supporting my argument? (Another nod, but you may begin to grumble a bit now) When an army rebels against or refuses to follow the orders of its commander, the act is, by definition, mutiny. In time of war, which it has been established that this is, anyone who commits mutiny may be punished by up to and including death.

That is the situation in "Empty Places." An army rebelled against the legal orders of its commander. Legal orders do not include any guarantee that everyone will come home alive, or even that anyone will come back. Legal orders are simply the orders that advance the cause for which the army fights. Leonidas gave legal orders when he ordered his men to hold the pass at Thermopalae. William Barrett Travis gave legal orders when he ordered his men to man the walls at the Alamo. Buffy Summers gave legal orders when she ordered her troops to follow her back to the vineyard. Commanders lead armies. Committees debate. Armies get the job done. Debaters do a lot of talking but do very little.

When Buffy left, her army deteriorated into a committee, and only succeeded in getting people killed or injured unnecessarily. Ironically, of all of the greatest critics of Buffy's command, the leaders of the mutiny, were safely back at Slayer Central when all of the death and destruction took place. They were probably still debating the situation. (There are scattered nods, a small amount of applause, and several staunce detractors most definitely grumbling. I even hear a growl or two.)

My rant is finished.

To begin, I disagree with your assertion that she was the provider of the household. I doubt that she could afford to pay for her and dawn to live in that house. Of course we can agree to disagree on this point because there is no way that Buffy and Xander could support that many people. It was one of those annoying things about season 7. IMO, Gilies should have just said that as one of the last remaining Watchers in the world he has been given access to the Watcher treasury. It'd have taken up about 1 min to pull that off.

And your army analogy is interesting but I fail to see the parallels. In season 7 they are a gang not an army. Buffy's statements that they are an army doesn't make it so. Also, please do not attempt to compare the Spartan warrior culture to a diverse group of girls who are plucked out of their lives to face certain death in an apocalyptic battle. The Spartan culture prepared its warriors to die in battle. Buffy has merely made speeches that essentially says that these girls are all cannon fodder for the First. I haven't exactly heard a speech talking about sacrificing for the greater good etc etc.

Do you realize you are comparing trained military men in an actual battle for survival with 15-19 year old girls? Also do you not realize that Buffy just walked into a trap against the advice of her 'advisors'? Have you also forgotten that Caleb has just killed 3 girls, gouged out Xander's eye, and beat down two slayers while giving a sermon. And earlier in that episode he could have easily snapped Buffy's neck but chose not to do it. The best plan of action is to lay low and regroup before you take the last potential slayers into battle against Caleb. If I'm Caleb I don't even bother with Buffy or Faith. I go after every and any potential in the room and thin the herd.

A decent plan would be for her, Faith, and Spike to go against Caleb the next night. Maybe they are easily beat again but RESEARCH leads the other Scoobies to figure out the location of that mythic weapon. But I really did enjoy it when Buffy got the boot. I would have really liked it if Xander went off on her and talked about all the times that the Scoobies helped her form a strategy or even defeat a big bad.

Now this could get me into the entire concept of using the last of the slayer line in combat. Its really not a smart battle plan.

O and about your last point. When Buffy was in charge girls needlessly died when she walked into a trap. At least the girls had a say in their demise when Faith was in charge. I'm not exactly a fan of following the words of a blind mute lackey but thats just me.

And obviously I would have led the charge against Buffy. However I would have nominated Giles as the leader.

[PhenixRising]

o well, too bad I can't edit. i felt like seeing if I could get a rise out of someone. I agree w/ the military analogy but I'm not a fan of how the writers put it out there but maybe that was their intention. Who knows. Anyway, i felt like having a decent rhetorical argument :) I still like my plan though and I do think that Buffy was a terrible or reluctant or just poorly written general. The final battle plan was all based on our emotional response not in any actual plot development. Cant fault the Buffster there.

[white avenger]

(I tried to reply to your post last night, but my new router kept messing up. I'll try again now)

First off, it WAS Buffy's household. It was her house, she provided shelter and protection for the Potentials and, eventually, the entire gang once it became too dangerous for the forces to be divided. Who bought the groceries was irrelevant. (On that note, Giles was no longer a Watcher, so he had no access to Watcher funds, and he never did. Whatever money he ever had was his own).

As to the age of Buffy's force (call it an army or a gang), wars have been fought by even younger fighters than that. Ask any Viet Nam vet. And on that note, Buffy was the leader because they had accepted her as such from the very beginning. By the point of the mutiny it was already an established fact. Certainly the girls were frightened, certainly some of them had been injured or killed by Caleb, but the Potentials should have realized by that time, or it should have been explained to them, that standing and fighting was their only choice. They were surrounded and cut off from any form of rescue. Separating or scattering and trying to escape would have only made Caleb's job easier. And, incidentally, if you look back, Robin Wood was the one to suggest taking the girls into battle in the first place, not Buffy.

Actually, I agree with you that Buffy, Spike, and Faith alone would probably had a better chance against Caleb without the Potentials along to have to protect. Their mistake fighting him was to fight "movie style," best illustrated by the Chop-Sockey movies of the 80's and 90's: surround a single fighter, then attack him one at a time. They should have used a coordinated attack, keepikg him off balance and never allowing him time to do any real damage to ani single fighter before someone else was coming at him from another direction. Even if his strength was truly titanic, he could not fight in three directions at once.

As for risking the entire Slayer line in battle, there wasn't a whole lot of choice there, simply because they were all in one place, surrounded, and they had no real option besides to fight (as we know after the fact, of course, the Slayer force actually numbered in the thousands, not dozens).

Finally, the girls who followed Faith to the arsenal and died had no more choice in the matter than Buffy's force did, they just had a different leader. They did, however, react better when everything went bad, and I have no option but to give credit to Kennedy for that. (Come on, we can take one of these things," might have been no more effective than the mouse giving the hawk the finger, but on the other hand, it sure beat covering their heads, screaming, and being slaughtered like cattle.

(Is that enough argument for you? I tried to answer all of your points, but if I missed any, feel free to point out my omissions.)

[Kimz]

i would of sided with buffy (and spike)
for the pure fact, she was their friend and leader, and she had stopped numerous apocolypses and saved their lives and sacrificed her own in the past, there was no reason why they shouldnt trust her to do the right thing. like spike says 'theres always casualties in a war' - think they were very harsh on buffy, and i find it hard watching that scene to be honest.

[nerd4hire]

She was right in the sense that something at the vineyard, but would have been wrong in taking the potentials to their deaths once again, force wasn't needed as she proved it was stealth

But that assumes we know what her plan of attack was. We don't. We only know her strategy of find out what's in the winery was correct.

Who knows how she planned to do that. A diversion? A rocket launcher attack? Who knows? And it wasn't just stealth that allowed her to snatch the scythe. It was luck.

[RogueHunter]

Lets be honest here people. This was the wrap up to our beloved show and the writers were trying to do a big story with a small budget. It was nice they went out with a bang, but it was far removed made the characters so much fun was their human failings. The potentials should have been stuck from reality. This relies heavily on suspension of disbelief.
The reality should have went something like: "Potentials, get outside, you don't need to hear this. Giles, you've been a punk rocking demon worshiping Watcher with very little command experience. Faith, a convicted murderer and recovering psychotic, Willow, an addict and control freak, Xander, you're an indecisive buffoon, Robin, you suffer from an over developed sense of vengeance.
The answer was borne out in the plot by havign them fail miserably. They mutinied and paid for it, but the mutiny shouldn't have happened. Rona and Kennedy needed a dose of STFU or go fight an Ubervamp.

[RogueHunter]

I think it was a very good representation of how humanity at large is hesitant to call evil, that which is clearly evil, let alone stand against it.

[Dlou444]

This one is a tough call.

On one hand, I've NEVER liked how Buffy could get all "high and mighty" when for years she couldn't have done squat without the help of Giles, Xander and Willow. All the speeches and rambling on and on, when we all knew she was just as clueless as everyone else unless and until she got help.
And I didn't like how she'd just throw these "plans" out at meetings. Sure, maybe the potentials didn't need to be in on plan making, but a "sub-meeting" between her, Willow, Xander, Dawn, Anya, Giles, Spike...maybe even Robin would have been ever so helpful. And I think THAT was her big mistake. If she had let the "big players" into the loop, the ones she'd been working WITH for years and let them have some input I don't think it would have gone down the way it did. It's something that has always bugged me.

On the other hand, I would have had a hard time tossing the Slayer out of the loop in the midst of all that was going on. Even (maybe especially) with Faith there.
I think it all could have been handled better by both sides.

I think Buffy should have been making plans WITH her trusted buddies from the get go. Perhaps Giles wouldn't have let Robin try and take Spike out if he had felt like Buffy wasn't pushing everyone away EXCEPT Spike. I'm not sure I would have felt horribly comfortable with that situation if I were Giles either.
I also think, the whole showdown should have been shut down from the get go with Giles, and the Scoobies taking Buffy to another room to discuss things or have discussed their issues with her earlier.

But, I will agree that the BIG GANG UP with an entire room of friends and potentials against her was a bit too harsh. And not really anyone's real style. It all seemed very out of character for everyone...except maybe Kennedy.

[RogueHunter]

Thats the kind of idea I was getting at but apparently not very effectively.

[willow23]

I woulds so have sided with Buffy. The potentials were acting like petulant children and when Willow sided with them I nearly cried. The fact that they lead a mutany after having been aware of their callings for such a short time is ridiculous. They didn't even know Faith and the fact that they put her in charge is also ridiculous. The girl who has been traitorous and childish throughout the series, suddenly in charge. Then again, they didn't really have the full story which is probably why they chose Faith, out of ignorance. Buffy was totally in the right.

Spike was also completely right when he berated Giles and Faith. I agree with everything he said to them as well. I second his beating up of her to the enth degree.

[littlewilly]

everyone going against buffy was pathetic and what spike says to them about being ungrateful was true.
I think Buffy should have said ''Sorry Willow, but i HAVE to do this'' then proceeded to kick that little petulant brat Kennedys ass all over town : )

[amandakins18]

i completely agree. her family shouldnt have done that. leadership was thrust upon her and they looked to her to lead they should have listened to her.

[LadyLavinia]

If I had been disatisfied with Buffy's leadership, I would have rejected her, as the Scoobies had done. I don't think she really knew what she was doing. Around that time, she was no more leadership material than Faith. No one had ever taught her to be a leader. And being the leader of a gang of friends is a lot different than heading an army. On the other hand, Buffy should have insisted that everyone - with the exception of Dawn - leave the house. SHE was the one to blame for allowing herself to get kicked out in the first place.


i completely agree. her family shouldnt have done that. leadership was thrust upon her and they looked to her to lead they should have listened to her.

I don't think so. I don't think it is a good idea to follow the lead of someone you have no faith in. That is a disaster in the making. And at that time, Buffy was not doing a very good job as a leader. I sense that most people believe that the Scoobies and the Potentials should not have rejected Buffy, because she was the series lead. I don't agree. If Buffy seemed to act as a poor leader, I think they had every right to reject her.

I don't believe in blindly following someone's lead.

[angelchick182]

This was a very emotional scene for me, and while I believe that Buffy got a little over-the-top throughout Season 7, I would've totally sided with Buffy in this instance.

First thing I want to say - just to get it out of the way - I've never been a fan of the character of Kennedy, and I often felt myself wondering who she thought she was weighing in like she did. Secondly, despite who was paying the bills or whatever, who in the world had the right to kick Buffy out of her own house?

Lastly, I'm not convinced that anyone in the room had the right to pass judgement on Buffy. She spent her teenage years and her entire adult life as The Slayer, The Chosen One, the one person on whom the fate of the world is supposed to rest. And while there have been others to help in the fight, many with great powers - it's not the same as being The Slayer. The Slayer has this life and overwhelming responsibility thrust on them, often at a young age. She never had the option of walking away, and has always had put her obligation above everything else - something that everyone in the group may understand, but I don't think could ever fully comprehend. Faith is the closest one that could understand it all, but she and Buffy have always been worlds apart as to how they view their calling. Everyone is due the opportunity for redemption, but given Faith's past, I can understand Buffy's reluctance to put the group in her hands. Faith has plenty of experience as a Slayer, but none as a leader.

Again, I see all the sides of this discussion, but in the end - I have to come down on Buffy's side.

[Nikkolas]

I'd side with Buffy. I cite a post of mine:

"It's war. Questioning your leader, the strongest person there who has the best chance of keeping you alive, is pretty stupid.
Then again, all the Potentials were morons.

A leader doesn't have to connect. I don't know the President or my high school principal...that gives me the right to defy their authority?

Buffy was better than anyone there with Willow being all anti-magic. She could kill every person in the room. That's power. She has it and they didn't. (well Faith be tough but Buffy would win again).

Faith definitely was used but some of the blame does go to her because she was "the popular mom/teacher" who despite being an authority figure, will be cool with their charges and let them do things. Problem is, you can't let them do those kind of things in these dangerous times. What if Caleb turned up at the club and killed them all? What if that cop had just decided to fire and blow off the Potentials' heads?

Fact is, we saw very clearly how incompetent, worthless and stupid the group was in the end:
"Ding dong the witch is dead."

Oh yes, the anti-Buffy side is filled with intellectuals.

Oh and how about Kennedy:
(to Willow) "Why are you always standing up for [Buffy]?"

Um...does anyone else have to laugh at the idiocy that is Kennedy here? Why does Willow stand up for Buffy? Hm. i dunno. Maybe it's because Buffy has been her closest friends for over half-a-decade, saved her life, saved the lives of her freinds, saved the world and well...hm. Is that good enough reason to stand up for Buffy yet? But I'm sure Ms. "I'm a skank with no experience or power in these situations" knows more.

This quote sums up the whole thing best. It's from a character amed Kain.
"Conscience?! You dare to speak to me of conscience? Only when you have felt the full gravity of choice should you question my judgment. ...To know that the fate of the world hangs on the advisedness of my every deed, can you even begin to concieve what action you would tak ein my position?"

Fact is, Buffy has power, experience, knowledge...more than anyone there. So what right do they have?
And I answer myself: none at all."

[littlewilly]

Exactly. Buffys proved herself a very worthy leader year after year. Willow wouldnt have power at all, had she not met, and been accepted by Buffy and to be honest, i was suprised at Xander.anyhow, after all Buffys done and proved, these idiot potentials just show up out the blue and start questioning Buffy? and her friends join in! fools.(and Buffy was right in the end)

[hyperballadbrad]

I would totally side with Buffy.... like others have mentioned already it is war, and Buffy is the strongest and obviously most consistent figure in battle.

Even though there are many potentials, it doesn't mean they are automatically strong, they need that extra something to cement them together to make them a force and that was Buffy!

[OldSwede]

Buffy would get my vote of course! The best thing with this thread is that it has shown me that there are fans out there who actually thought they did the right thing to kick her out. So maybe the writers didn't mess it up as hard as I thought. When I saw the episode, my reaction was that especially Willow and Dawn acted so much out of character that the whole scene was totally unbelievable. Kick friend and family out of her own house - come on! I can see how the writers tried to work up to this mutiny over time, but I just do not think they did a good enough job.

[Entiel]

I think the hole scene was kinda extreeme...like the writers wanted her to be out...never liked the scene anyway although spike's loyal come back was neet :)
anyway after the vinegard incident I would be dissapointed but I surely wouldn't kick her out...

[sosa lola]

While I do see the Scoobies' point, the writers failed big time with that scene. Even if Xander, Willow and Dawn didn't agree with Buffy's plan, they'd never side with someone else instead of hers.

[littlewilly]

^^yes they would, if the situation arose, they'd have too, they aint stupid

[KhaoticLove]

Buffy shes the best leader there, got them threw everything else.
Funny how they turn on her and how Spikes the bad one when he stuck up for her.
Pretty sad when the "bad guy" is better than your friends.:P

[Werewolf]

I would tottaly have taken buffys side!

[Superstar]

For Buffy fans there's only one question you have to live by to answer this:
What Would Buffy Do?

[sosa lola]

xgirlanachronism245x agrees: I don't think so. Remember Angel? Xander never really sided with her on that.

I said, he may not agree with her, but he'll always take her side, I'll add, when it counts. In Dead Man's Party, Xander didn't agree with her choice to run away, but when zombies showed up, he was by her side fighting.

Here, he was not agreeing with her plan, but why didn't he argue against throwing Buffy out? (Even though she asked for it herself)

"I won't sit here watching her leading you to a disaster," Buffy said.

"Then don't," Dawn replied.

[RockManic]

I said, he may not agree with her, but he'll always take her side, I'll add, when it counts. In Dead Man's Party, Xander didn't agree with her choice to run away, but when zombies showed up, he was by her side fighting.

Here, he was not agreeing with her plan, but why didn't he argue against throwing Buffy out? (Even though she asked for it herself)

"I won't sit here watching her leading you to a disaster," Buffy said.

"Then don't," Dawn replied.

Have to agree with this. There is a big difference between disagreeing with Buffy and totally going against her. There are ways and means to dealing with the situation they had there and the way that played out never felt right to me. The least that the other Scoobies should have done was to take the conversation to a more private place. Sure, the potentials deserved the truth and a say in what happened but at the end of the day they were all newbies in the demon slaying game and Buffy was their leader, up until that point. She deserved not to have her oldest friends turn on her and throw her out in some public humiliation scenario.

Xander may not have been in the best emotional place at that time but he still really should have dealt with the situation in a better way. As should Willow, Giles and the other Scoobies. Because of that the scene often feels very forced to me.

[LadyLavinia]

I think Buffy should have been making plans WITH her trusted buddies from the get go. Perhaps Giles wouldn't have let Robin try and take Spike out if he had felt like Buffy wasn't pushing everyone away EXCEPT Spike. I'm not sure I would have felt horribly comfortable with that situation if I were Giles either.


I'm getting sick and tired of fans making excuses for Giles' actions. Yes, Buffy made mistakes. But so did he. Isn't it about time that people realized that Giles was NEVER the perfect mentor who knew everything? Because he wasn't.

He WAS THE MORON who insisted that Buffy lead the Potentials and everyone else, without bothering to teach her how to become a leader. He was the one who panicked and allowed himself to be drawn into a plot to kill Spike behind Buffy's back. He was the one who insisted that Buffy grow up, yet at the same time, tried to keep her down and under his control.

Two, I'm getting sick and tired of fans insisting that Buffy had to spend every moment of life with the Scoobies. If the First Slayer had all of that within her - Hand, Heart, Spirit and Mind - then Buffy should have inherited that from her . . . and taken out Adam on her own. The fact that she used the Scoobies help her only told me that she was afraid of summoning all of that within her to deal with Adam and that she was still clinging to the Scoobies and her adolescence. The First Slayer had been right about her.

Yes, there are times when you need your friends or some kind of help in certain situations. There are times when you have no choice but to act alone. I get the feeling that most BtVS fans wanted to keep Buffy regressed between 16-18 years old, in which she would always have to depend upon the Scoobies . . . and stick with them forever.

Buffy had to grow up. Even if it meant making mistakes. She could not stay the way she was when the series first began. And that meant having a life outside the Scoobies and not getting involved with certain men who want to view her as a perpetual adolescent. I had been thrilled when Andrew revealed to Spike in "ANGEL" S5 ("Damage") that the Scoobies had scattered to the far corners of the world to start new lives, and yet still retained their friendship. Then Whedon screwed that up by bringing them back together for his new comic series that picked up after Season 7. It now looks as if Buffy will remain forever static, clinging to the Scoobies for the rest of her life. And considering that she is still a Slayer only tells me that she has yet to take control of her life or create one for herself.

[bob6666]

one it was a trap, when faith went to the vienyard there was a bomb trap

two; she told them now one was watching my back but spike, xander lost his eye, part of that reason was he went to help buffy at the vienyard he could have left. (to trust spike like she did when he was under the first control not that long ago was not the best idea)

every for that she make a buch of mistake in the last week and was geting worse. they were trying to get her out of it. (they did it the wrong way)


three, they had time to plan anya was a thousand year ond demon, guiles spent 40 years study demons faith was a slayer xander has a way of finding the right answer at the right time and willow was the most powerfull witch in the world she would not lessen to anyone they tried let think about this, we think you are makeing a mistake and maybe faith should be in charge (with is beyond stupid) dawn kick her out becouse she would not let any one else lead. all she would have to say was lets talk about this and that would be the end of it.


I wish xander would have said this to buffy " you can not defeat the first, you have never defeated the big bad alone" then smile gave her a hug "remember the master we save you, adam together we kick ass, gloly, we killed a god. you have never been alone, and togather we beat this reject ghost, but you have to let us help you please buffy let us help you.

she won becouse she let them help willow with her magic xander just being xander guils anya faith and spike.

[Kimz]

i so would of sided with buffy...like spike said, 'theres always casualties in a war' plus faith led them into a situation just as bad as the one buffy led them into.
buffy was the leader, and had more experience. plus she came out on top with what they essentially needed in the end, like u knew she would.
i was quite disappointed that the original scoobies didnt side with her its not like shes ever let them down in an apocolypse before, shes always come through and shes always saved the world...plus dawn had a bit of cheek making her leave considering she sacrificed herself for dawn to save the world before...pffft...that scene really annoys me LOL can ya tell!

but yeah i would of sided with buffy....plus the potential slayers really annoyed me in this scene especially kennedy and rhona. lol

x

[SC7 Fan]

I would have definetly taken Buffy's side. As much as I love Faith, I would have been with Buffy. If she still got kicked out after I had argued my case I would have gone with her.

[Ripper 08]

i'm not afraid to admit i love both slayers and i'm sure i'm not the only one,i would have loved to have sided with buffy and stuck up for and with her! however we have to remember there was a large group there against her,so this brings peer presure into this situation.would i have voiced my opinion of being on buffy's side,with so many people aroung me wanting to appoint faith the new leader.

thats a hard thing to answer i would like to think i would,but wouldn't no unless i was in that situation!

but ye i would have liked to side with buffy :P

[EveryNiteISaveU]

I just watched this episode again and it boiled my blood to watch them all turn on her like that! I dont even think that she had been out of line at all, during ANY of the episodes. She was making the hard calls and giving out the tough love speeches...which they all needed to hear bc most of them were whiny little twits (the potentials). I found it VERY odd that even Willow and Xandar jumped on the mutiny bandwagon. I could see it building up to this with Giles, but not with those two. But, even though as Buffy walks away and relinquishes her power as commander as they all wished, Im sure she knew that things would fall apart without her. And, they did.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

actually, watching it again i would've sided with the group. Buffy was getting way too head strong after so many years, and seriously, the way she was acting iwould've punched her in the face.

and as for Xander not standing up for her... he lost a friggin' eye, i think that would hold some weight in his decision.

[BASBritt]

I probably would have stuck up for Buffy.... I think the others were just feeling the pressure and wanted to lighten up but Buffy knew they didn't have time for that and she was trying to keep them all focused. They were too hard on her.

[Atren]

I hated this episode as it sole purpose for me seemed to be to separate Buffy and Spike and it was not done well at all. Of course they were made to be right side so to speak. Altough on long run it was best outcome as if they had gone in force there would been casualties and if they had gone at once then the axe would still been in that big rock invisible for Buffy to see it even. Overall i just ignore that subplot :P

Now about the arguement itself, i am more on scoobies side than Buffy. Her arguement was that why is not the First henchmen guarding the seal. Umm, let me see i am big bad the first and i really really should be guarding the seal that keeps my army locked, because you see if someone were to open it and release my army that would be bad for me....wait a minute?

[sosa lola]

I actually think Buffy needed it. She was too caught up on her Heartless General role that she forgot what had gotten her this far: the team work with her friends. She didn't get them this far by herself and we all know that, but it seemed that Buffy had been taking her friends' help for granted, too caught up in "The slayer is always alone" gig. Therefore making stupid mistakes and losing the respect of those around her.

She stubbornly said that she won't sit around and watch Faith lead, in which Dawn sated "then don't." Buffy had said that they needed to be together on this (which in Buffy's mind means that they have to fall in line like robots with no feelings or opinions of their own.) Dawn simply said that Buffy isn't playing with the team, she's like Will Smith in that episode where Carlton joined the basketball team. The one where Will Smith arrogantly plays solo and doesn't share the ball with his other teammates. Once Buffy figures out how to be a leader, she's welcomed back.

Buffy needed to be out of the action to perform better and as you can see, she came back better than ever. She learned that her way was wrong and that she needed to include the others into her decision making plans. That she needed to give Faith and the others a chance to express themselves and show what they're capable of.

The Scoobies were also wrong in the fact that they discussed the matter with Buffy among strangers. They needed to have a private discussion and come to a good solution on their own, not in front of those who did not share the experience of seven years fighting.

I have to say that the Empty Places scene was very badly written. It's like the writers wanted us to root for Buffy through hating the Scoobies, make Spike the hero who understands and the others the ungrateful betrayers. Kinda like reading a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old. The Scoobies appeared very OOC in that scene and Touched.

In S2 Innocence, Xander and Willow were enraged that Giles wouldn't look for Buffy because she had disappeared all night. Giles wasn't put in a bad light in that scene, just a watcher who believes in his slayer. Xander and Willow didn't appear badly in that scene, just two friends concerned for their friend. This is a good scene with two different points of view but both parties are sympathetic and have a point.

Sadly Empty Places is obviously favors Buffy's side over the others, which means bad writing.

[Kana]

I actually think Buffy needed it. She was too caught up on her Heartless General role that she forgot what had gotten her this far: the team work with her friends. She didn't get them this far by herself and we all know that, but it seemed that Buffy had been taking her friends' help for granted, too caught up in "The slayer is always alone" gig. Therefore making stupid mistakes and losing the respect of those around her.

Totally agree.

She stubbornly said that she won't sit around and watch Faith lead, in which Dawn sated "then don't." Buffy had said that they needed to be together on this (which in Buffy's mind means that they have to fall in line like robots with no feelings or opinions of their own.) Dawn simply said that Buffy isn't playing with the team, she's like Will Smith in that episode where Carlton joined the basketball team. The one where Will Smith arrogantly plays solo and doesn't share the ball with his other teammates. Once Buffy figures out how to be a leader, she's welcomed back.

Yep and extra points for the Fresh Prince anology.

Buffy needed to be out of the action to perform better and as you can see, she came back better than ever. She learned that her way was wrong and that she needed to include the others into her decision making plans. That she needed to give Faith and the others a chance to express themselves and show what they're capable of.

As you've said, one of Buffy's strengths were her friends and her feelings for her friends. The FE did their homework and this is why they attempted to divide them.



The Scoobies were also wrong in the fact that they discussed the matter with Buffy among strangers. They needed to have a private discussion and come to a good solution on their own, not in front of those who did not share the experience of seven years fighting.

I this was the result of an extreme circumstance. I think both Buffy and the Scoobies were not thinking straight.

I have to say that the Empty Places scene was very badly written. It's like the writers wanted us to root for Buffy through hating the Scoobies, make Spike the hero who understands and the others the ungrateful betrayers. Kinda like reading a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old. The Scoobies appeared very OOC in that scene and Touched.

A few people have said that, but I never really got it. I only accept OOC when there is no explanation of why a character is acting the way they are, but we have a virtually a whole season leading up these events. As for Spike? I didn't agree with the things he said in the next ep, well not all of it. He is compasionate and caring, but he can also be emotional and one sided. It would be out of character for Spike to stop and look at both sides of the story in this situation, he followed his heart, as we expected. This shouldn't however mute his support of Buffy in the bedroom scene, I just see this as the strengths and weaknesses of Spike rolled into one, kind of like Buffy of yore.

In S2 Innocence, Xander and Willow were enraged that Giles wouldn't look for Buffy because she had disappeared all night. Giles wasn't put in a bad light in that scene, just a watcher who believes in his slayer. Xander and Willow didn't appear badly in that scene, just two friends concerned for their friend. This is a good scene with two different points of view but both parties are sympathetic and have a point.

Agreed.

Sadly Empty Places is obviously favors Buffy's side over the others, which means bad writing.

Oddly enough, I never even got this before I went onto the forums. I've always seen both sides from the get go. Maybe I missed the point.

[NIX]

I would have stuck with Buffy and left with her due to my chances of survival being stronger with her!!

[sosa lola]

A few people have said that, but I never really got it. I only accept OOC when there is no explanation of why a character is acting the way they are, but we have a virtually a whole season leading up these events.

I agree. But sadly only you and I see this because we look at the situation objectively. Other fans don't and I don't blame them. The writers did a good job showing us how hurt Buffy was by the turn of events in Empty Places, how alone and betrayed. But they didn't even bother to show us how the Scoobies felt. I can't believe they didn't write ONE scene with Xander, Willow, Dawn and Giles wondering how Buffy is, is she okay? Where did she go? That seemed OOC for me. Only when Faith tells them to check on Buffy, they go looking for her. These are not the Scoobies I know.

As for Spike? I didn't agree with the things he said in the next ep, well not all of it. He is compasionate and caring, but he can also be emotional and one sided. It would be out of character for Spike to stop and look at both sides of the story in this situation, he followed his heart, as we expected. This shouldn't however mute his support of Buffy in the bedroom scene, I just see this as the strengths and weaknesses of Spike rolled into one, kind of like Buffy of yore.

Spike's feelings were captured perfectly and nothing about his reaction was OOC. Of course, he'll take Buffy's side. I don't agree with everything he said, especially about Giles, but he was written well. Can't say the same about Xander, Willow, Dawn and Giles.

[pernilleborup]

Seen in the light of what just happened to them all (Xander's eye, potentials killed) I can't blame them. Buffy forgot about one thing: Those girls were potentials, but not slayers! No matter how much you train them, they are only as good as a normal young scared girl can get: NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

She was being a bitca, a selfish one! And when she needed to be kicked out. She needed someone to stand against her for once. To set things in perspective.

I would have kicked her out, even if she was my fraternal twin!

[xgirlanachronism245x]

He WAS THE MORON who insisted that Buffy lead the Potentials and everyone else, without bothering to teach her how to become a leader. He was the one who panicked and allowed himself to be drawn into a plot to kill Spike behind Buffy's back. He was the one who insisted that Buffy grow up, yet at the same time, tried to keep her down and under his control.

I agree with this point.

Giles thrust ths job upon her without lending a hand to help her, without giving her any training to lead an ARMY of whining teenage girls with no grasp for what they were turly facing. As for the Spike thing, Giles pulled an Angel... and that made me hate him. He tried to do what was "best for her" without consulting her... without trusting her not to let him go crazy. He left her in Season 6 to make her stand on her own... yet he still does stuff like that... hypocritical? Very much so.

-----

Buffy doesn't NEED the Scoobies... but she trusted them to help her, to make her struggle easier, and to be her friends throughout the pain and the heartbreak and the war. They betrayed her here, but she didn't have to leave her own house. What surprised me, and made me hate this episode the most, was Dawn. Dawn, who is her sister, who she saved, who she gave her life for... forcing her from the scoobies ranks.


Buffy happened to be right. She went on her own and proved she was right. But I think that was the moment she realized that Spike has always been right, because he was the only one who understands what it is like to HAVE to be alone, to have to grow up and take the pain alone. But he was alone with her... and that made her less alone... if that makes sense.


A slayers's job is to fight the war between good and evil... its her job... not her friends. They chose to be there, they chose to follow, and after six years of following... after all of the things they've been through, for them to pull this when she NEEDED them... It wasn't the SLAYER needing them. The SLAYER was LEADING them. Buffy NEEDED them. The girl behind the slayer. And they walked away from her.


It makes me sick.

[atticus]

I would have sided with Buffy. She's not always right, but she deserves their loyalty. It was their choice to stay by her side all these years. Willow could have gone to any college she liked, Xander was the most successful.
career wise, he could have left sunnydale. They felt it was a good fight, and they stuck by her.
It really pissed me of, when Anya got on her case. Hey bitch, remember that reality without Buffy in it. Xander, Willow, Cordy and most of sunnydale are dead and you're still a big veiny demon. None of them would be around, their lives were better for having Buffy in it. They may not remember it but she should, why not tell them what happens when buffy's not in their life, before you boot her out. Ungrateful scoobies.

[sosa lola]

I would have sided with Buffy. She's not always right, but she deserves their loyalty.

You're right, but just because she's my friend I don't have to follow her like a blind lap dog. No one was convinced on her plan. They didn't want things to go to the point of "kicking her out". But Buffy's bossy and superior attitude was wrong, it didn't give her any favors. She needed to be out of the picture for awhile. Learn to be the effective leader she used to be. Learn that she's surrounded by people with minds of their own and limited strengths. Learn to hear suggestions and ideas.

You know why Buffy led them to a disaster in Dirty Girls? Because she didn't listen to her friends. Because she chose to be arrogant. If she knew how to listen and value other ideas and suggestions, she wouldn't have found herself in the street. And you know why Faith led them to a disaster in Touched? Because she, too, was an arrogant leader who only wanted to hear her voice. She made the exact mistake as Buffy.

I know that Buffy has been into a lot of pressure and she desperately wanted to lead everybody to victory. But that fight in Empty Places had two sides in which both were right and both were wrong. No one was right and no one was wrong.

[Blaze]

I don't think that anyone was 100percent wrong in what had happenned in that scene. I mean, if it was the apocalyspe and I was almost sure to die, I would act a little crazy to. I think the scoobies were wrong about kicking Buffy out but I can sort of understand why they did it.

So I guess I don't really know which side I would have taken, I love Buffy, but you know, if I would be one of the scoobies or one od the potential, I guess I would just be scrared. Of course, kicking Buffy out isn't exacly the best idea but people always do a least one stupid thing in their life.

[Pink Slayer]

Ahh god this scene was awful! I am going to say that I would have sided with Buffy. True she was acting a-bit irrational but she still know's what she is doing, and I always remember thinking "it's her house!" well kinda lol I loved it when Spike went back and stood up for her.

[itsxpaperdoll]

In this case I too would have gone for the experience of Buffy, and not for the pragmatism of Faith (if you can call it like that) It would be hard, given the situation, and I would be tempted but Buffy just had the hardest time of all so it is sortof logical that she is a bit edgy. it's very immature of everyone, really, to confuse edgyness with arrogance or even incompetence.

[thephoenix]

I think people miss the point that in war (as this obviously was) you do what you have to in order to win; not what's fair. The people who are argue on side of friendship and fairness are exactly the people who should NOT be leaders. the potentials and scoobies' actions were disgraceful and cowardly. Sure it's human to not wanna die or feel like cannon fodder (however true that title may be). But feelings don't equate in a war. True warriors have to shut this function off, temporarily at least in order to do what needs to be done. Which is what Buffy was doing. The other people didn't switch into warrior mode. They were too worried about being heard and feelings. Their installing Faith as leader provoked human reaction from Buffy. Faith is obviously a sore subject for Buffy and her reaction however harsh in hindsight can be understood. Just as the group's fear can be. Both reactions were uncalled for, but it doesn't matter. Buffy said she would talk strategy (which she didn't even have to do) but the end game was going back in. Instead of stepping up to talk strategy everyone made the error of desolving into panic. Panic kills you quicker than anything.

The potentials were in panic mode and ignorant and inexperienced. The Scoobies were plain cowards; no excuse for them.

Buffy was being a leader.

In all honesty, I think it was Faith that got screwed in the deal. And she stated the deal very succinctly: I'm your boss. I make the rules and go in first. Which is pretty much what Buffy was saying, but in a different way.

[Ripper 08]

as i said in my earlier post i'd like to think i'd vote buffy as thats who i'd want as my leader but with the peer presure i don't no wether being surrounded by others voting against buffy wether i too would vote faith.

so i wondered what would you have done if you were there and had voted for buffy, the rest of the scoobies and potentials still vote faith though, so would you leave the house with buffy?

as i said in my earlier post i'd like to think i'd vote buffy as thats who i'd want as my leader but with the peer presure i don't no wether being surrounded by others voting against buffy wether i too would vote faith.

any way if i did have the coruage to vote buffy i would have left the house with her but think i would feel akward around her even though i have backed her all the way

look forward to your opinions

[thephoenix]

Were it me: Buffy would not have left that house at all, or if she (we) had to, at least not alone. Right is Right.

[Queen Mum]

I personallt felt that this 'mutiny' was a little bit contrived. It didn't seem to me as being a thing that normally happens. Okay, you normally don't face certain death, but when looking at similar events throughout history, people tended to stick with their commanders. Henceforth I would have stuck with Buffy. I can't exactly remember what the reasons were, but i doubt that they justified a mutiny. I think it was something that had to do with the unability of the characters to talk their problems out. I find this something very striking about American television shows and I wonder, whether this is an actuality among Americans, but I have got no real knowledge about that. Anyway, so buffy it would be.

[hannahfngrl26]

Yeah so I never really got this whole twist of plot. I think the house was just being super bitchy. None of them could ever really understand what Buffy was going through and if I were her I would have kicked all their asses just for being so stupid, especially the scoobies that did not stick up for her.

[hazzard]

i would have sided with buffy. just thinking about the speech she and faith overhear xander saying to the potentials in an earlier episode--about how he's seen buffy's heart (and this time not literally) and she's earned their trust--convinces me. she has saved them all and sacrificed herself for dawn, her only blood family left, and even dawn said she had to leave. i thought it was the ultimate betrayal.