Annoyed with Angel [any anti-bangel people?]

[TrueVengeance]

Anyone else majorly annoyed with Angel this season (well I'm always annoyed with him from day 1 lol)?

He goes and spies on Buffy...which to me is creepy. I know he was just trying to protect her and all that jazz, but it's still creepy. She has a right to know. And to let all her friends know as well, but not her? Major reason why I don't like Bangel :p

Then he comes and beats up Riley. He is against Buffy dating him, yet he sees new people in his own show? What the hell. So he's allowed to date whoever he wants, but feels Buffy should be alone. *shakes fist*

Okay rant over now :p

[babyo0ogirl]

I'm obviously not anti-bangel, but I too thought it was creepy how he was spying on her & didn't want her to know he was in town. I suppose he was just trying to make it "easier" for her, but like Buffy, I would have wanted to know if he was in town. I thought it was hilarious when he beat up Riley, but that's just b/c I can't stand Riley. But I think its wrong that he can date other people and she can't (in his eyes).

[Kana]

Well to explain the behaviour (but not excuse it) I'll look at what happened in the season.

Angel has a history of making decisions for Buffy without consulting. The disturbing part is the fact that he is treating her like a child.

As for his feelings when he comes to Sunnydale? He still remembers the emotions and heartache of I Will Remember You. His rant to Buffy in Sanctuary was no doubt following on from that.

"...You moved on, I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again and it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me..."

At this point Angel doesn't know he can move on and is still reeling. He comes to Sunnydale and he gets attacked by soliders then the guy who gets to have everything he's always wanted but had to give up (for the world and for Buffy's life) turns up. Angel's pounding on Riley was getting his frustration out but Riley's macho attempt to (and I have to laugh) "protect" Buffy from Angel doesn't make him much better. Buffy should have put them both in hospital.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

I'm anti-bangel, but I don't find it creepy. He wanted to check she was safe - with a darned good reason since she dies next season - it makes sense, he never wanted to leave in the first place, so sure he'd wanna check how she was.

[JCC]

I think part of this storyline was a metaphor for the stalker ex-boyfriend who's posessive. It was an interesting angle to play, for sure, but to be honest, I thought that Buffy was FAR more out of order and irritating in this series of episodes. I mean, when Buffy hits Angel and then is surprised that he hits her back, throws it in his face that she's seeing someone and feels the need to emphasise his superiority over Angel, with a bunch of other annoying stuff too.

[babyo0ogirl]

See, I haven't seen the Angel episodes that go with the Buffy episodes yet, so I think I"ll have to watch them to have a better all around perspective of what was going on.

[white avenger]

In defense of Angel, he never really "dated" anyone, except for a Charlton Heston double feature with Fred, until Season 5 with Nina, and that was after Buffy had moved on past Riley AND Spike (is thinking someone that you profess to love because he incinerated closing the hellmouth "moving on?") into a state of celibacy in Scotland.

As for being jealous of and beating the crap out of Riley, I don't really think he had that right (it should've been Spike, for all of the bullying he had to take due to the chip). Leaving Buffy was his choice, not hers, and he compounded it by the events in "I Will Remember You," whatever his imagined reasons might have been Being "unable to protect her" was completely invalid, considering the fact that he was never around to do any protecting in any case, plus the fact that there are perfectly capable demon fighters who are quite able to protect anyone that they choose, from Giles and Xander through Wesley and Gunn. Being a super powered "champion" was more of an ego trip than anything else.

Finally, as for his sneaking around in the shadows, spying on his FORMER girl friend, not by her choice but his, that was just plain lurking, something a vampire with a soul should never have done in the first place. There are prisons full of people who do that.

[Angel's vision]

I do not think it was creepy to spy on Buffy like he did, I get fed up of people (don't take it the wrong way folks!) insinuating that, what I feel happend was Angel got a message from TpTB via Doyle's vision, he goes to Sunnydale, and watches Buffy in order to rescue her when the danger comes, he didn't know when it would strike, the visions are vague so he watched for the time when it would come, enlisting her friends help, without her knowlege, in order to not upset her by being there, ok that bit was double standards because he was willing to get upset seeing her again but she wasn't, having said that he should of told her why he was there knowing how she would react, and her friends should of too, don't forget it wasn't just Angel who was secretive. I feel it was a little childish rather then creepy, and he was immature along with Riley for fighting over her, Buffy's lecture was spot on, asking them wether they were twelve hee hee!

And Angel is a loner not very good at conversation so he does things the only way he feel's comfortable with, making decisions by himself. His "Stalking" is his way of keeping himself apart from the person, or Buffy and doing things on the quiet.

[palabravampiress]

Showing up in town to "protect" the perfectly competent slayer, involving Giles, and hiding from Buffy was just poor form. If Angel wants to go to Sunnydale to, I don't know, bask in the mystical convergence rays of the Hellmouth, then that's cool. No heads up necessary. If he wants to go butt into Buffy's life, well then, a hey-I'm-here is kind of polite. Why'd he have to get all lurky? Why couldn't he have just told her about the visions and being sent to help? Lurking in the shadows and being all secretive instead of being up-front about the danger was, well, creepy. Coming back around later and acting all jealous and and then beating up her new boyfriend? That was beyond creepy.

Angel's actions in this little arc clearly indicate that he's not yet over Buffy, but that the love he feels for her doesn't outweigh other considerations like fear of turning back into Angelus or his desire to do his duty as a champion (even when it's no longer his appointed duty). Basically, he's having a hard time living with the consequences of decisions - decisions that were entirely his to begin with. He made the decision to walk away not once but twice. But as soon as she starts to live life without him, he gets jealous. Cuz that's what happens when you make decisions based on what you think is best for another person instead of working through your issues like adults. He didn't want to be with Buffy, but he didn't want anyone else to have her, either. His resulting actions were creepy. You can explain his actions and even sympathize with him, but you can't justify what he did. It's never right to break up with someone, leave town, come back and stalk her, and then beat up her new boyfriend. Not right. We might have the inside info about the day that wasn't, but Buffy doesn't. It's not fair for Angel -- who made that decision for her, too, I might add -- to throw that baggage onto her when she has no idea it even happened.

And that's why I don't like Bangel. When it comes to romantic relationships, Angel has the emotional maturity of an adolescent boy raised in a highly patriarchal household. His word is final and not to be gainsaid, but hers is flexible and not to be taken too seriously. Angel treats Buffy like a child. Maybe, someday, if he grows out of that and shows her some respect, I'd give them a second chance. But as long as Angel acts like a caveman in a cool coat, I'm firmly out of the Bangel camp.

[Kana]

The end scene was interesting between Buffy and Angel, and it's probably the reason some Bangelist have hope in their heart. Angel "I don't like him" line really intrigues me because Buffy merely laughs at it and Angel says it comically. Maybe I'm looking too far into it (or maybe not far enough) but it seems there is an implicit understanding between the two. Angel understands Riley's perspective but now Buffy is beginning to understand Angel's in more ways than one. She doesn't know what happened in that 'Perfect Day' but she at least knows that Angel's feelings remain. Angel openly told her in Sanctuary.

Dispite Angel's anger (at Riley and maybe a little more at Buffy in some ways) he still loves Buffy. I can relate to this sentiment but it doesn't mean he was wrong in the first place about the deal with Faith and now Buffy is getting that. This is really what I'm saying in a nutshell. The common argument of the anti-bangelists is that Angel is a stalker and that's plain wrong rather than looking at the intention (sorry to repeat your point Angel's Vision). Buffy's anger in both situations is not only understandable but justifed in my opinion (Pangs and the Riley beating) however she's still appreciative of what he's done. It means a lot to her that he still cares. She saw past the folly and looked into what it meant to see her to apologize when he really didn't need to. He says he doesn't like Riley and Buffy smiles and understands. Either she appreciates Angel's honesty about the fact the anyone who is with her he's not going to like or it's a true compliment that he actually believes it's true love (oucy for Angel) or it's merely humour between to people who dispite everything care about each other. Whatever it means, it shows understanding.

[palabravampiress]

The end scene was interesting between Buffy and Angel, and it's probably the reason some Bangelist have hope in their heart. Angel "I don't like him" line really intrigues me because Buffy merely laughs at it and Angel says it comically. Maybe I'm looking too far into it (or maybe not far enough) but it seems there is an implicit understanding between the two. Angel understands Riley's perspective but now Buffy is beginning to understand Angel's in more ways than one. She doesn't know what happened in that 'Perfect Day' but she at least knows that Angel's feelings remain. Angel openly told her in Sanctuary.

Dispite Angel's anger (at Riley and maybe a little more at Buffy in some ways) he still loves Buffy. I can relate to this sentiment but it doesn't mean he was wrong in the first place about the deal with Faith and now Buffy is getting that. This is really what I'm saying in a nutshell. The common argument of the anti-bangelists is that Angel is a stalker and that's plain wrong rather than looking at the intention (sorry to repeat your point Angel's Vision). Buffy's anger in both situations is not only understandable but justifed in my opinion (Pangs and the Riley beating) however she's still appreciative of what he's done. It means a lot to her that he still cares. She saw past the folly and looked into what it meant to see her to apologize when he really didn't need to. He says he doesn't like Riley and Buffy smiles and understands. Either she appreciates Angel's honesty about the fact the anyone who is with her he's not going to like or it's a true compliment that he actually believes it's true love (oucy for Angel) or it's merely humour between to people who dispite everything care about each other. Whatever it means, it shows understanding.

I agree with your assessment of Angel's feelings and of your assessment of Buffy's acknowledgment of those feelings. I just don't think intent overrides action. I can sympathize with Angel's feelings. I can see where he's coming from and why. I just can't take that and say "it's okay because he loves her enough to still care." I can't take the very human emotions behind the actions and use them to make the actions justifiable. Regardless of his reasons, he's still doing that Angel thing that I hate, and that's making decisions for Buffy instead of with her. As much as I might sympathize with him, I can't say I think that's good or healthy for Buffy. That's not the relationship in which I want to see my favorite heroine. I want to see her in a relationship with someone who makes decisions with instead of for her.

[ndrocksteady]

I think part of this storyline was a metaphor for the stalker ex-boyfriend who's posessive. It was an interesting angle to play, for sure, but to be honest, I thought that Buffy was FAR more out of order and irritating in this series of episodes. I mean, when Buffy hits Angel and then is surprised that he hits her back, throws it in his face that she's seeing someone and feels the need to emphasise his superiority over Angel, with a bunch of other annoying stuff too.

yeah, i agree... i was annoyed by her behavior in that episode...

as for angel 'stalking' her lol.... yeah, it was kinda creepy, and if i were buffy, i would have liked to know, but i guess i see angel's point too... so i dunno

[LadyLavinia]

I agree with your assessment of Angel's feelings and of your assessment of Buffy's acknowledgment of those feelings. I just don't think intent overrides action. I can sympathize with Angel's feelings. I can see where he's coming from and why. I just can't take that and say "it's okay because he loves her enough to still care." I can't take the very human emotions behind the actions and use them to make the actions justifiable. Regardless of his reasons, he's still doing that Angel thing that I hate, and that's making decisions for Buffy instead of with her.


For me, this attitude had its worst manifestation in the ANGEL Season 1 episode, "I Will Remember You".

[Bangelxx]

I'm OBVIOUSLY not anti-bangel so I'm just here to defend them!:p:) LOL

[Jules]

I loved Angel going all Season 1 stalkerish again. It was how their relationship started out; Angel skulking in the shadows protecting Buffy. Fair enough that at this stage in their relationship there shouldn't have been this amount of secrecy, but I can see where Angel was coming from. He didn't want the heartache of talking to Buffy again, it was hard enough just watching her and he was trying to spare her at least that. I don't think he did it just for her though. I do think that he was trying to keep distance between them without actually keeping distance between them (if that makes sense :))

And to defend the Riley fight....Riley had no right being there. Angel says that he got jumped by some guys obviously the Initiative, so Riley comes running to the rescue when it was not his business. Angel came to apologise to Buffy, he did not come to fight with Riley. Riley forced that confrontation. And true, Angel was a little smug with his replies to Riley but so what, what ex-boyfriend and current boyfriend get on without the occasional snide comment :)