Angel's Last Stand

[white avenger]

Am I the only one who thinks that Angel should be feeling at least a little more remorse than he seems to in Season 6? After all, his "taking a stand," as he so eloquently described it, is directly responsible for Los Angeles being plunged into hell, resulting in untold property damage and the loss og hundreds of thousands if not millions of human lives. You can argue that the Senior Partners would have done the same thing at some time in the future anyway, but that argument holds no more logic than would a murderers argument that killing someone was excusable because "everybody dies eventually, I just took a stand and decided to get it over with now."

In one fell swoop, Angel has killed far, FAR more people than Angelus, Darla, Spike, and Drusilla combined.

[Allycat]

Actually, I don't think it's comparable to someone just murdering someone else. Angel didn't kill anyone, nor did his actions directly and purposefully cause those deaths. The Senior Partners are directly responsible for LA being in Hell and when they put it in hell, they knew this would cause the death of a lot of people. The actual deaths are ofcourse done by the demons such as Burge and his son.

If you want to draw a comparison think about it like it's 1939 and the Brits realise what's happening in Germany and they try to attack it. They fail and as a result, all of Europe (including Great-Britain) is even more easily invaded.

If you wanna spice the conversation up, was Angel's action of taking a stand against evil and then causing nothing but pain and misery perhaps a metaphore for America taking on Afghanistan and Iraq? Perhaps being in hell is a not-so-subtle comment on those wars?

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. I don't blame Angel.

[palabravampiress]

I think I'm somewhere in the middle between Allycat and WA, but leaning toward Allycat's side.

On the one hand, Angel's General Custer approach was sort of reckless. Even making the attempt required him to lose a little bit of his soul (killing Drogyn and the way he orchestrated the offing of Lindsey via Lorne) and do some things that I, personally, wasn't comfortable with watching him do (OT: Anyone think maybe that's what signing his soul away was about?). I mean, he knew (or should have known, as the CEO of one of their branch offices) how much firepower W&H was really packing. He knew they'd pull out all the stops in retaliation. He knew it was basically a suicide mission. Angel declared war. and in war, there are casualties. I don't think he knew how many innocent people he'd take down with him, but I think he knew he'd take down some. I think that, like Custer before him, his hubris led him to put more faith in his team and in thinking he was right than in an enemy that outmanned and outgunned him. I don't think he escapes all culpability here. You'd think Mr. Broody Pants would really latch onto this one and give himself a good wallow.

On the other hand Allycat is right. Angel is not directly responsible for the deaths that occurred after the descent into Hell. The demons doing the killing are responsible. W&H, which sent the demons to do the killing, are responsible. People (and demons) have free will. You can't blame one for the actions of another, no matter how connected the two may be. Furthermore, I really like the metaphor for America's current muddle idea.

[alexa]

So the opposing argument is that Angel should have sat back and done nothing to prevent the coming apocalypse? He should have let the Circle continue to plot the end of the world?

And you're not just blaming Angel, you're blaming Spike, Wesley, Gunn and Lorne. They also chose to go down this road, and I don't see why they should be free of any responsibility just because it wasn't their idea. It's like not giving a harsh sentence to a murderer because hey it wasn't their idea, someone told them to. Not that I see their actions in the same way.

Anyway I really think Angel blames himself enough for everything else going on, do we really need to remind him to brood now? He mentions in #1 how it's his fault that these people are in hell. I admire Angel for getting on with the mission and not wallowing in his own pity.

And uh, I still love you WA. Incase this post came out way harsh :p I may be channeling myself from another forum, where the Spike looovers like to attack Angel at any possible time ;)

[Spike Angelus]

All very interesting and well thought out points. Now, if I may put in my 2 cents, blaming Angel 100% for W&H sending L.A. to Hell because he took a stand is like holding GM responsible for a car wreck because they built the car. Sure, it could have been a factor, and in Angel's case, the big factor, but what would have happened if he didn't fight back? If even more people had been sent to Hell via W&H, would we then be blaming him for NOT fighting back? Seems to me Angel's in the old adage "damned if you do. Dammed if you don't."

[palabravampiress]

Yeah... I don't know what else Angel could have done. But... is it really fair to say at least he did something when that something made things a lot worse for the average Joe? I mean, LA wasn't in Hell before Angel pulled his stunt. Now, it is. Also, Gunn has been turned into that which he spent his entire life fighting, Lorne is a murderer, and Wesley is a ghostly agent of Hell Incorporated. I'm having a hard time finding the silver lining. I agree that the whole team is to blame to some extent, not just Angel. While what the demons and W&H do ultimately fall on the heads of the demons and the senior partners, I don't think our heroes should necessarily get a free pass just because they tried to help. I mean, those actions had consequences. I think that by rushing into what was ultimately a bad plan meant to accomplish the symbolic victory of stopping the wheels of change for a couple of minutes, Angel and his crew may have unwittingly scored one for the opposing side. If that's the case, then I'm not sure the intention matters quite as much as do the consequences.

I just don't see why he had to rush to confront the enemy head on. Didn't he say the apocalypse was ongoing? Didn't he say the Black Thorn's apocalypse was the kind of thing that has been in the works since even before he was born and would still be in the works several centuries into the future? If that is the case, then I'm not sure he needed to go in guns blazing one fateful night. I think he and the team could have taken the time to figure out a better plan. Maybe they could have amassed an army -- perhaps a slayer army with the help of a certain super hero both Angel and Spike used to date -- and come up with a not just an assassinate-the-world-leaders plot but also a plot to replace those leaders with more benign types? Or maybe he could have used his affiliation with the Black Thorn to, you know, spy for a long time? Maybe he would have uncovered some intelligence that would explain how the planned apocalypse would go down (and then use that info to stop THAT). There just seems to be a lot of room for planning and watchful waiting here.

I kind of feel like Angel pulled a Spike. He went in all half-cocked instead of coming up with a more intricate plan. In addition to my general distaste for the consequences, it also feels kind of out-of-character for Angel. He's usually big plan boy. Spike's the one who's all fists and fangs.

[Keanoite]

Angel didn't do anything that he did in those final days with the knowledge that L.A. would recieve a one-way ticket to Hell, like Allycat says that was done by W7H not Angel.

I do feel however that he he speaking in a very un-Angel but very Buffy way. Has anyone noticed his extreme quippyness? That ain't Angel! sure a joke-a-month her and there but nothing like in the comic.


And Allycat the history nerd in me cannot resist this, the UK was never invaded by Germany. It was bombed in the Blitz but they were never invaded. ( I know that was totally irrelevent but I couldn't NOT say it):D

[Allycat]

Damn, I even make mistakes in my karma-comments. Obviously, that's meant to say Great-Britain instead of Germany.

[white avenger]

Angel didn't do anything that he did in those final days with the knowledge that L.A. would recieve a one-way ticket to Hell, like Allycat says that was done by W7H not Angel.

I do feel however that he he speaking in a very un-Angel but very Buffy way. Has anyone noticed his extreme quippyness? That ain't Angel! sure a joke-a-month her and there but nothing like in the comic.


And Allycat the history nerd in me cannot resist this, the UK was never invaded by Germany. It was bombed in the Blitz but they were never invaded. ( I know that was totally irrelevent but I couldn't NOT say it):D


Maybe the thought of losing Buffy to the Immortal threw him into another one of those "don't give a damn" moods like he had with Darla at the end of Season 3. Between losing Buffy AND Cordy, he just might have been in a big enough suicidal rage to be completely oblivious to exactly what the ramifications of his act might be. I still say that at some point, he's gonna have to own up to forcing W&H to do something that they hadn't planned on doing anytime in the near future, thus denying the good guys a whole lot of time that could have been used to set up a more powerful counterforce, possibly a counterforce capable of containing the battle more effectively.

[palabravampiress]

Angel didn't do anything that he did in those final days with the knowledge that L.A. would recieve a one-way ticket to Hell, like Allycat says that was done by W7H not Angel.

I do feel however that he he speaking in a very un-Angel but very Buffy way. Has anyone noticed his extreme quippyness? That ain't Angel! sure a joke-a-month her and there but nothing like in the comic.


And Allycat the history nerd in me cannot resist this, the UK was never invaded by Germany. It was bombed in the Blitz but they were never invaded. ( I know that was totally irrelevent but I couldn't NOT say it):D

I'm not saying that Angel knew exactly what the bad guys' counterstrike would be. In fact, that's part of my criticism. He was the CEO of Hell Incorporated and on the Board of Directors for Armageddon, Inc. If he didn't know exactly what the bad guys would do or how, shouldn't he at least have had some clue about the the magnitude of the attack? I mean, was the President of the United States completely in the dark about what would happen when the U.S. dropped the big one on Hiroshima? He wasn't a scientist and, sure, the exact ramifications of such an act could not have been foreseen by anyone, but the President knew it was the biggest baddest weapon in the world at that time. Similarly, Angel was at the helm of the forces of darkness. If he didn't have any idea of the possible ramifications of his actions, then he clearly wasn't paying enough attention to his job. The fact that he didn't know... well, that's what bothers me. He had access to the information; he just chose to ignore it and go all High Noon on us.