I was thinking today...

[babyo0ogirl]

and I got to thinking about how I read some where that Angel was never supposed to come back after he was sent to hell in the Season 2 finally. How different do you think that would have made Buffy, both the character & the series? Obviously, we would have never had Angel the Series, but I think that it would have also shaped the character of Buffy differently, if she had to live with sending her lover to hell for all eternity. What do you guys think?

Also, what do you think that they would have changed about Season 3 if Angel was not around? More of the Mayor, or given Buffy a new love interest?

[Blondie Bear]

Good question. She did seem to be moving on when he reappeared. It's possible her relationship with Scott would have lasted longer, but probably not--or I hope not; I didn't like him. I would have liked to see more of Faith, personally. As far as that arc, though, I think Buffy needed Angel to keep from becoming Faith; he was part of her anchor.

There's lots more I could consider and write about, but I need to get some more work done before bed.

[palabravampiress]

You know, with Angel well and truly dead forever, I sort of think Buffy and Xander would have ended up together.

I've got no good reasons to back that up, of course. In the early seasons, I always got the impression that Buffy and Xander were end game. Of course, that changed when Angel came back. After that, I felt like they didn't really know what to do with Xander, who I believe was originally supposed to be the leading man. I felt like Angel and Cordy were supposed to be those idealized romances that you have when you're a kid, but that inevitably fail and that Buffy and Xander were supposed to those friends-turned-lovers that usually do so well in the longevity department.

It's sort of a classic formula. I mean, look at My-So-Called-Life and tell me Jordan and Angela were end game over Brian and Angela. Literature, too, is rife with those who are burned by the exciting guy and find their soul mate in the friend who was there all along. Sense and Sensibility comes to mind big time.

I think Angel coming back changed that. And Joss being Joss, he was happy to change the formula and write what grew naturally from the characters and the fans. I think him coming back and getting his own show, basically becoming almost Buffy's equal in the verse that bears her name, made Angel end game. Ugh. Yes, that's right. Quote me, Keanoite. I may not like it, but that's where I think the story's going.

So even just in terms of romance, I think Angel coming back changed a lot.

Of course, now that we have the comics and Buffy and Angel are still separate, who knows? Everything is up in the air again, and I think that's great!

[Tranquillity]

it certailnly would have changed Buffy as a character. She would have had to live with the sending Angel to Hell thing but not the Angel leaving town thing at the end of season three which i always think had the bigger impact on her. I mean yes, she was devistated by what she had to do at the end of season two and it had a big impact but she was beginning to deal with it just when he got sent back - it was something she had to do as part of her calling and for the good of the world. But when Angel left at the end of season three that really had a lasting legacy. After that She specifically chooses not to 'fall in love' with anyone (until Spike, but that's another issue). So i think that had Angel not have come back she still would have been cautious with love and relationships but not perhaps to the extent that she was. i think Pala is probably right about Xander being the originally preferred suitor for buffy. Even in early season four there is some hints that the possibility of that relationship was still on the cards. The fact that her boyfriends and people who love her 'leave' has been a huge part of her character development and indeed gets touched on in season 8 #11 A Beautiful Sunset.

[babyo0ogirl]

I haven't seen past Season 4 yet, so I really don't have a whole lot of insight into her character development after Angel left. In Season 4, I think she's still hung up on him to some extent (I refuse to believe she really loved Riley :P). I do think that her abandonment issues probably play a big role on her & Angel leaving like he did at the end of Season 3 was not easy for her character to deal with, but I wonder if they had kept Angel in hell, if they would have brought him back perhaps in dreams/nightmares for her to deal with, causing her more guilt and/or pain.

[FaithyFivebyFive]

Even though we probably wouldn't have been updated on Cordelia's life, imagine how different hers would've been. Angel had a big part to to do with her becoming a better person than what she was in Sunnydale.

[caitaintdead]

I think Buffy's romance with Spike would have grown a lot more then it did if Angel wasn't alive (figuratively). Hmmm but then again... maybe she would have been more wary of getting involved with another vampire. Thoughts on that? Now that I'm thinking about it I can't really decide!

[IdiotJed]

Hmm... Cordy probably would've stayed in Sunnydale, for one. Which is something that would've completely shifted what we know now. Different relationships, perhaps. Xander getting in the forefront in a relationship with Buffy, and perhaps more triangles between everyone essientially.

I think for the show to go in the direction that it did, Angel had to come back.

[white avenger]

It might have gone something like this:

1) Xander and Cordelia reconciled, eliminating the character of Anya.

2) Faith would never have gone evil, she and Buffy would become better friends and make a good fighting team.

3) Buffy's relationship with Scott could have ended when he died/left town/fell in love with with Harmony/etc.

4) Trick and Kokistos could have lasted longer, working with the Mayor right up to the Assention, possibly with several confrontations between Faith and K throughout the season.

5) The whole Mayor Wilkins/Assention plot would have progressed progressed up to the final battle, after which Faith would leave, either to set up her own territory and have a recurring role throughout the series or to have her own show with crossover episodes occasionally.

That would take care of Season 3, allowing Seasons 4 thru 7 to pretty much go the same way that they already have, with maybe Faith returning in Season 5 to help with the Glory final battle, adding enough extra muscle to the good guys force to eliminate the need for Buffy to jump and die.

Spike's "I know you'll never love me," statement could have awakened Buffy to the idea that just maybe, she really could, sparking a somewhat destructive relationship between the two of them in Season 6, inspiring Spike to still go off in search of his soul in order to be a better man, leading into Season 7 about the same way it was, except that Robin Wood would wear the amulet into the hellmouth and be burned to a crisp.

A final scene with a triumphant Buffy, one arm around Spike's shoulders and the other around Faith, hugging them together while Xander, Willow, Cordy,and Andrew dance around in the background singing, "We did it, we did it..." and a battered Giles pointing out that there is another hellmouth in Cleveland just before Dawn and Kennedy dump a cooler full of Gatorade over his head.

Buffy looks back at the crater that was once Sunnydale, tightens her grip on Spike and Faith, as the latter says "I'm gonna stay in bed for a MONTH!" Buffy smiles a wicked smile, looking straight into the camera. Fade to black...

[Jules]

Personally, I think if Angel had died then the Spike/Buffy relationship wouldn't have taken off. I think she would have chosen human partners instead of vampires. I think she'd have had a successful relatioship with Scott (not love of her life relationship but just nice), they would have gone to different colleges, she would never had slept with Parker and just moved straight onto Riley. That would have worked because she wouldn't have been comparing him so much to Angel and then she never would have looked at Spike. Her life would certainly lack passion (yes, I can admit, even as a bangel, that spuffy was very passionate). In the romance department I think she would have played it very safe and boring.

As for season 3, there would be less tension between the Scoobies, they wouldn't have had that huge fight in the library about Angel coming back. Faith would have felt like part of the group because Buffy wasn't excluding her from things, so Faith would never have gone evil.

It would have been very boring if he hadn't returned.

[Atren]

Hmm, from my personal PoV saddest result probably would been Anya had stayed 2 episodes only.

Faith to evil would have happened anyways, but perhaps with reconciliation at end and she leaving Sunnydale to escape the memories of her actions. If she had been up for spin-off i can't really imagine anyone from Sunnydale aligning with her altough.

Scott might have lasted a lot longer than he did and had better relations with Buffy. Cordelia and Xander would have stayed friends after initial backslash over cheating her and then perhaps slowly working back.

[Superstar]

How different do you think that would have made Buffy, both the character & the series?
Interesting question.
Buffy went away, dealt with it and came back. Started to get her life back in order, move on and be happy.
Then WHAM!
Sort of reminds me of the abusive boyfriend and the girl who just couldn't say no that Angel helped in his series.
I think the parallels there were a bit glaring.

Cordy probably would've stayed in Sunnydale
Nope. Angel had nothing to do with Xander/Willow smoochies.

Even though we probably wouldn't have been updated on Cordelia's life, imagine how different hers would've been. Angel had a big part to to do with her becoming a better person than what she was in Sunnydale.
Actually, we were shown what her life would have been - star actress with her own show.
Better person is relative.

For all intents and purposes, Angel/Angelus was a destructive force to everyone he was close to.
List of damages after his return (not counting ones before he went bye-bye):
Buffy - additional heavy emotional baggage
Doyle - dead - but then his lifestyle would have probably gotten him that same result anyway
Cordelia - derailed from her actress future and now effectively dead
Wes - dead - would have remained a rogue demon-hunter otherwise
Gunn - now a vamp = undead or if you discount After the Fall; dead - previous lifestyle probably dead sooner
Fred - dead/turned demoness = undead - otherwise trapped but alive in another dimension
Lorne - murderer and now has no club business - otherwise happy as a clam
LA - sent to hell - not much difference except the demons are more conservative

Connor and Darla are separate issues since they wouldn't exist unless he had come back.

Crazy Flakes agrees: Don't forget the part where Kennedy jumps into the crater and gets eaten by some leftover Hellmouth beasties.
LMAO! Jumps or is pushed? I'm sure there's a joke there on taste.

[palabravampiress]

Dru: Would not have re-vamped Grandmummy or been burned alive by Daddy, poor dear.

Spike: Would not have had the amulet in Chosen. That means he may still have somehow gone out a shiny-souled hero (because it makes sense for his arc), but probably would have remained dusty rather than ghostified (and then corporealized) in L.A. His end would have been an actual ending.

The apocalypse: The slow apocalypse stopped for a moment by Angel & Co. at the end would have kept going, unnoticed, as planned by the Black Thorn. That means that, among other things, Drogyn would still be alive (but probably unknown to us).

Jasmine would not have tried to take over the world (or, alternatively, maybe souled!Spike and Dru would have had the have-a-souled-baby story and Connor/Buffy would have produced Jasmine? *Shudders.*).

Most of the people saved by Angel during the course of his series would have died (or undied). While, ironically, many more W&H lawyers would have lived (or unlived), especially the folks that Angel allowed to die at the party. Also, Lindsay would never have lost his hand.

Nina would not have learned how to control her wolfiness.

[Violette]

It would've been different, Buffy would've lived with the guilt of killing Angel (despite her duty of saving the world). And season 3 wouldn't have been as awesome (I'm a huge B/A shipper).

[Superstar]

palabravampiress agrees: Wow. I knew there was a reason for which I disliked Angel. You just reminded me of several!
Here's the funny thing; you (or others) might get the mistaken impression that I don't like certain characters when I seemingly criticize them.
I do like them. It means I have an invested interest in the character(s) and their stories.

In Angel's case (as this is the topic here) he is written as a deeply flawed character emotionally.
The things he does and the reactions resultant in his environment reflect this. It doesn't make me like the character less.

Picture-perfect characters and fairy-tale relationships are boring and unrealistic.
They might be every schoolgirl's dream, but that has it's own emotional problems to analyze.

[palabravampiress]

^ I agree with you. I like Angel as a character. I like the conflicts and relationships that his character created, resolved, or influenced on both shows. I liked his show. I just dislike him as a person. Does that make sense? You can like the way a character functions within a given piece of art without feeling warm-and-fuzzies toward him. I tend to be highly critical of Angel. In the long-run, though, I like the effect he has on the show. He infuriates me, but in a good way. I love to hate him. lol.

[Primal Slayer]

Interesting question.

Actually, we were shown what her life would have been - star actress with her own show.
Better person is relative.

Cordelia - derailed from her actress future and now effectively dead
exist unless he had come back.



That life that we were shown for Cordelia is also if Angel had lived and were given the visions. If Angel had stayed dead in S2 of Buffy, it wouldve changed things in S3 so much that Cordelia most likely wouldve stayed in Sunnydale or would end up going back to Sunnydale.