Season 4... shoot me now.

[tearsong]

My whole household is into BTVS and Angel. It's at least an annual if not bi annual thing for us to run the seasons of Buffy, and when I got here at the BB I realized in the 3+ years I've owned all of Angel, I've only watched it through once. Now I am the only one here who has seen every single episode of both, and mu spouse finaly decided he wanted to watch the entire 5 seasons of angel....

We're about to cap of season three and I have been dragging my feet about watching it which was weird... I'm obsessed... and then I realized, that most of season four was nothing but one big depressional black hole. I actually dread watching it. Connor as a baby... yay cute and adorable and since I'm a mom I can get on that bandwagon.... Connor as a seething teen boinking Cordy??? Not so much.

Please tell me I'm making it worse then it really is, or at least lie really well so I can manage to watch for the story's sake....

Is anyone else feelin' me on this???

[white avenger]

Just keep in mind that, no matter how bad it might get, Joss is a cruel, sadistic man who loves torturing his fans just because we're all so devoted to him that we'll just keep crawling back for more. That, and, there WILL be a Season 4, so Season 3 can't be VERY terrible. Does that help?

[JCC]

Season four of Angel was immense.

[thegifting]

You're not really making too much of S4 I don't think.

S3 was the worst, as far as what happens to the characters, and S4 certainly has it's desperation, but it, to me, has a bit of a numb feeling to it. Like, the whooping we took in 3 makes us a bit more capable of dealing with 4 and it's trials, tribulations, and tortures.

[GATEGOD]

My whole household is into BTVS and Angel. It's at least an annual if not bi annual thing for us to run the seasons of Buffy, and when I got here at the BB I realized in the 3+ years I've owned all of Angel, I've only watched it through once. Now I am the only one here who has seen every single episode of both, and mu spouse finaly decided he wanted to watch the entire 5 seasons of angel....

We're about to cap of season three and I have been dragging my feet about watching it which was weird... I'm obsessed... and then I realized, that most of season four was nothing but one big depressional black hole. I actually dread watching it. Connor as a baby... yay cute and adorable and since I'm a mom I can get on that bandwagon.... Connor as a seething teen boinking Cordy??? Not so much.

Please tell me I'm making it worse then it really is, or at least lie really well so I can manage to watch for the story's sake....

Is anyone else feelin' me on this???

I loved season 4. The entire Angelus storyline, seeing gwen again, and seeing Faith for three episodes. Plus the end Jasmine bit with Angel/Fred I loved aswell. Its a really good season.

[Blondie Bear]

This is my least favorite season of Angel, which is saying something since I didn't really get into it at all until S5 (which I loved). It is a seething black hole of despair seasoned with the ICK that is Connor and Cordy and the WTF? that is the late-season twist to Jasmine. Surprisingly enough, I enjoyed the Jasmine storyline (probably because Gina Torres could be in a B movie and I'd love her), but the lead up to it was just all wrong (and I understand that there was a last-second switch due to Carisma's pregancy, but I think they just handled it badly).

[Bangelxx]

I can agree with EVERYTHING you said tearsong because I'm at the moment watching season 4 of angel for the first time and yes, I dread it. I just want to keep going with buffy! It's true, it is just a big black pit of despair! Connor/Cordy uckk i want to shoot them! but, i do like this season, as strange as this may sound! i think i'll get into it more soon though! (I think Angelus is coming back in the next episode)

[kanani]

I pretty much share your opinion, tearsong. And I'd say you're psyching yourself out more than making it worse. Just see it as part of the whole, or, chin up and do it for, yes, the story's sake. :) Even with all it's random painful-to-watch moments, I do think it's worth it. Just for getting us to S:5 alone it's worth it. You can do it, be strong!


S:4 is my least favorite mostly due to the über-annoyingness that is Connor**. That dude took teenage angst to an out of sight level. Yeah yeah, grew up in a hell dimension, poisoned by bias about Angel, I get it, I really do. He's still annoying to the über power.
I also was completely grossed out by the Cordy/Connor hook-up. Granted, I get the how/why, world ending with a beast and a barrage of flaming meteors, etc,etc, but still... *ewwshudderspasm*. Just gross.
And Jasmine's my least favorite of the big bads.

On the flip-side, I loved pretty much everything to do with Wesley. What a freaking journey that character took, eh? And I thought the Lilah/Wesley ship was genius as a story and as a huge benefit to Wesley's personal arc, battle, hell, etc.
I also liked 'On-the-Run Fred'.
Every episode with Faith was just badass. Eliza really did get a gold-glittered writer's wand part with this character. Another journey that is just amazing to watch from her first scene on BtVS to Angel to S:8. Awesome.
Not to mention Angelus for a stint. I love watching him go from the brooding soulful helper of the helpless to... Angelus. Strut it, David.



**Re: Connor/Vincent Kartheiser, I rented Dandelion (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338133/) after I finished the Angel Series cause I wound up liking the Connor that we glimpse in S:5. Heck of a little indy movie and he was awesome in it. I also saw The Unsaid - it was 'eh'. He came off as Connor-in-training in that. To me at least.

[tearsong]

Well, I'm on "The Price". I think this is the last ep of Season 3... I hope I can do this.... my heart re-broke when Connor was stolen.... bawled like a baby.

[alexa]

I think season 4 has some awesome episodes.. as an arc I didn't love it, but didn't seem that depressing to me. This is the only season where I don't like Cordy.. but I guess she's not Cordy. Season 4 has Angelus, Faith, Willow.. and some really cool episodes with Fred and that scene between Wesley and the grasshopper. Anyway it leads to my favourite season, 5.

[Styles Clash]

Joss is a cruel, sadistic man who loves torturing his fans

Quoted for emphasis.

[tearsong]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all about the Faithy-ness of it all... and Jasmine was interesting and kinda cool. I hated Cordy in season 4 myself, and I hadn't felt that way since buffy season 1... the main arc is so danged gut wrenching. Maybe it's the whole mom thing, but to have connor come back with sooooo much hate for his own dad.... OUCH and the Pain..... and the soul ache.... and I FEEL that.....
Sad I guess to get *that* wrapped up, but I do. It's kinda weird, but I don't watch TV, but Joss makes it feel like a book to me.... and there are some books that I love that I won't read too often again because the subject matter is just so dark and heavy it's hard to throw off that vibe after you put it down/turn it off...

[rickmaniac]

This season was one of my least favs because of all the reasons listed above. I loved the idea that Angel and Darla had a child - that was a pretty brilliant and unexpected twist.... but teenage!Connor was way too over the top. He took angst to a level that I though was previously only attainable by Harry Potter..... Cordy also bugged me.... but I suppose that all worked out. Wesley however, was definately the highlight of the season. You truely got to see him grow into a new person, see how changed he became due to unfortunate circumstances....

[palabravampiress]

Chin-up! Season 4 actually had some highlights, if you could just pretend for a moment that the awful Connor and Cordy stuff never happened.

Green Fred! The House Always Wins isn't a stellar episode, but it is fun to see the gang in Vegas and to see Fred dress up in green.

Spin the Bottle! Come on. That's one of the funniest hours of TV that I've ever seen.

Habeas Corpses was delightfully creepy.

Wes' character growth was out of this world amazing!

In the same vein, you get to see a lot of Lilah, which is always fun.

Angelus makes an appearance, and who doesn't love Angelus?

Faith makes an appearance, and she's pretty gosh darn cool.

Willow makes an appearance, and that's also neato.

Darla shows up for like a split second. And even though she's acting very un-Darla-ey, I still love her.

Gina Torres as Jasmine was a delight to watch. She always made me smile.

The W&H twist at the end - with Lilah! - was unexpected and also rather funny.

So, yeah. Chin-up. Plenty to enjoy. Just cling to Wes like he's a lifeline and allow yourself to be buoyed by the guest spots.

[Kana]

If you haven't seen Season 4 (or all of it) look away NOW!















I really liked Season 4. I loved dark Wes. His relationship with Lilah felt believable as well as being engaging. Most of Wes' relationships (barring the Fred one in itself) I find interesting. In all his supposed darkness he actually tried to save Lilah. The feeling estrangment, self loathing and ecstasy all rolled into one leading a beautiful tragedy, whilst steering clear of some of the more maudlin cliches we've been, dare I say burdened with over the years on lesser shows.

I loved the Wes/Gunn/Fred triangle. I think that's more interesting that Wes/Fred and Gunn/Fred respectively. It also ties intricately with Gunn's character arc citing his multi-layer jealousy of Wesley. It also looks at how two men (three if you include Angel) can idealise and wish to protect the girl. Wesley couldn't save Lilah and Gunn couldn't save Fred, not in the way in which he wanted. Fred is a person, her own agent, not an object to be protected. Gunn learns that and Wes learns that in the next season.

Then we have Connor... Say what you will about the boy Slayer but I cannot find him a one note character. His petulence masks a fear of being like his father but it goes further than that. He sees himself in his father. Angel's struggled to find meaning in his existence as a soulled vampire. He struggles with it metaphysically and psychologically. Connor does the same. He shouldn't exist and the teen angst is depicted in this wonderful metaphor to show how a lot of teenagers feel. His competition is with Angel is also funny because as Jasmine says, Angel's is not exempt from blame in their estrangment. Yes Connor slept with Cordy but Angel let his jealousy blind him to his son's fear and pain. His fear of being a monster. Angel can relate, he gets over it in fact so....cue Angelus.

Angelus was necessary for AI distraction. My main complaint is that Angelus lacked the subtlety of Buffy Season 2 (many feel this way) however the scenes in the cage are truly chilling. His naked 'soul' expose on the group brings a yoko factor style fracture underscoring the complexity of the character arcs which are delicately intertwining.

His scenes outside the cage were less chilling and more cheesy however thematically his scene with Faith was poignent, a second act to Sanctuary's first. Attempting to relate and destroy as opposed to Angel's relate and save. His emotional honesty was actually something new (almost Spike like) which added a new dimension. Everything that Angelus said could have easily been spoken by a pessimistic Angel and given the next season, ummm yeah!!!!

Jasmine? Yummy philosophical goodness and wonderful Fred action towards the end. I also liked the Fred and Gunn scene's later on. Again, they felt true.

And Home!!!! Shock Horror!!!!!! What a twist but a good one (not a Spike chip/soul type thing) Vinnie Kartheiser's (Connor) acting was spot on. His hint at Holtz' possible abuse really got to me. We understood his actions, his need to believe in something when nothing felt real. His fear of betraying the man who although abused him, he thought of as his father (ok so some of these themes were not in this ep specifically it makes for Connor's wonderful character arc).

There is just so much in it and I could talk about so much more. Story arc, character arc, philosophy, both ontological and moral. Perhaps the only thing missing was light humour, but this has been in other seasons of Angel in many different shapes and forms. The humour was there incidently, however it was subtle and mixed with the melodrama. Aside from the Spin the Bottle (which gave us more than a quota anyway) Little moments like Connor's creative use of the word 'Sluk' was great and nestled in there.

Cordy? Well it wasn't her. It's like someone like OZ, his absence from a season doesn't make me like him less. It wasn't Cordy in my eyes. Doesn't bother me. Although granted Charisma's acting did lol.

[tearsong]

Thanks ya'll I think I'll be abe to slog through it now with less apprehension:)

[rickmaniac]

I suppose I could learn to love the season lol - what with all the hard work you've all done to show us to good points lol. You can be quite persuasive ;)

[Tranquillity]

I didn't much enjoy season four the first time but subsequent viewing i've really enjoyed it. It get better with multiple viewings.

[LadyLavinia]

I realized, that most of season four was nothing but one big depressional black hole.

Yeah, and I loved every minute of it . . . except for Jasmine possessing Cordelia and Lilah's death.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

I don't like all of season four, but I don't hate it. A lot of it was boring and not as good as the rest of the season, but some of my favourite episodes are in this season, so I'm not gonna say a lot of bad things against it. Though I do think it was one of the weaker seasons.

[LadyLavinia]

I think that Season 5 was the weakest . . . followed by Season 1.

[buffyfanforever]

yeah there still was a few good episodes tho but cordy bad and angel seemed always upset not my fave iv gotta say i loved season 5 tho

[eunsoma]

all i can say is: what is it with season fours???
Actually, thats not all I can say: Connor - Cordy thing... Ew
But hey, who didn't love 'The House Always Wins', the Faith arc, Lilah's attempt at redemption, being ecstatically relieved when we found out Cordy wasn't Cordy, Gwen Raiden!, Manny - lol, Willow, Fred and Angel kissing (hey i suprised myself too!!) and that irreplacable feeling of content when we learn that we don't have to hear from Connor anymore (hits the hardest when Fred asks "Who's Connor?" LOL YAY)
Okay, so season 4 wasn't that bad - you just need to think of it as a not so good season of the greatest show (equal to BTVS) in history - it numbs the pain ;D

[TabulaRasa]

I really don't like season 4. I watch a couple of episodes from it but mostly fast forward thru almost whole episodes. I do love the beast though. He's awesome. Ooh, ooh, and baby Connor. So adorable.

[RockManic]

Season 4 was actually okay but works for me a lot better now that I can watch it at my own pace on DVD, rather than one episode a week.

Why? Spoilers ahead for anyone reading this before they watch it...






It contains the truly excellent Faith arc, the arrival of Gwen, a Willow guest appearance, the continuation of Wesley's amazing growth as a character and hero, Angelus' return and some of my favourite Angel episodes ever, including Apocalypse Now'ish and Spin the Bottle.

Yeah, it could have been better in places and there were aspects that dragged on for too long (the "way too happy people of LA" plot, being one example) but I really think the season gets more negative reaction than it deserves.

[Hello Cutie]

Really REALLY not a fan of season 4 Angel. Infact, it's the worst season in my opinion. The whole storyline was just a little too ridiculous, and I never liked Connor much. Connor and Cordy was completely 'eww incest', because hey, one minute, changing nappies, the next, bonking the baby (okay so he's not a baby, but that's not the point- she's cleaned that backside and other stuff- she shouldn't be boinking it!).

I thought the whole Cordy giving birth to Jasmine and Cordy being evil was so stupid. It really felt like they'd planned out this season then at the last minute went 'Oh my god, Charisma's pregnant, what are we going to do?' 'I know lets make her and the baby evil and create the most rushed, stupid and unbelievably boring season of Angel yet'.

Okay, so there was a big bad, and we didn't 'know' who was evil, or who the Beast was working for (although, the acting in Season 4 by Charisma got worse and worse- the pregnancy was draining her and it showed), but I didn't feel the urgency of needing to know and stop the bad guys that I've felt in previous seasons... it just felt long, drawn-out, and tiresome.

[Angel's Avenger]

Season 4 was my least favourite. The only thing it had going for it was Angelus coming back and Faith...I loved the episode Orpheus.

[Buffanator]

I didn't think season 4 was horrible - in fact, I truly liked it. I LOVED seeing Angelus again, and some of my favorite quotes are from Angelus ("You can kiss my vampire ass!") - and as always, seeing Faith gets a good, strong YIPPEE outta me. ;)

The only thing I didn't particularly like was Jasmine herself. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE GINA! - she's fabulous! - and loved her on Firefly as well! - but the whole "big bad" of Jasmine just didn't get to me. Glory in S-5 of Buffy was way more convincing as a "god" of sorts. However, the idea of *love & happiness* becoming too much bear was a good idea, but I didn't think it played out right. First of all, Jasmine *born* as a full-grown black woman... WTF? It would have been MUCH BETTER to have seen her as a baby, then a child, then a full grown woman - kinda like a clone in super-speed or whatever. I did kinda like the way Jasmine was ended, but I thought it could have been much more *fight* if that makes sense. Maybe to have seen Connor fighting against her, too, and then finally understanding what's so HARD about "being a parent" :rolleyes: - oh, but I digress.

I loved S-4 for the most part. But I really think they could have had a better *big bad* than Jasmine. JM2C

[Superstar]

Maybe to have seen Connor fighting against her, too, and then finally understanding what's so HARD about "being a parent"
Actually, a nice scenario would be for Jasmine as a baby to have been kidnapped and taken away by some mysterious "followers/cult" or whatever plot device would be created to serve the mirroring of Angel and Connor. Then having Connor come to grips with his issues about his own stolen childhood with Angel.

[angelchick182]

Like Tranquility, I didn't really enjoy it that much when I was watching it week to week on the air the first time around. I've watched select episodes on DVD before, but I recently re-watched the entire series, and I got into Season 4 alot more this time around. I actually forgot how many good episodes there were that season, and realized that it was really just the last 6-7 episodes of the season that soured me on it as a whole. Life Buffanator - I think Gina is great! - but I just didn't really dig the Jasmine storyline. The premise was good, not so sure about the execution.

[littlewilly]

I got for the 1st time a few months ago and watched it all in about 3 days, and i loved it, but when i think back on it, there aint as much
stand out episodes(bit like s5) and it just isnt as involving or as memorable as the other seasons. But, thats just comparing it to the high standards of Buffy and other Angel seasons. Its still very good though.