German Lessons

[Blondie Bear]

Since the French forum has French lessons, I thought maybe we could have German lessons, too. What I've been doing isn't "learning" German; it's half-assing it so I can pass a reading test. Eventually, I'm going to have to be fluent in German, which will probably mean taking classes, but I'd like to go ahead and get started.

Does anyone feel up to teaching me and anyone else who would like to learn? If so, I'll let you choose where to start, though it seems to me that cases and syntax is the most obvious place.

[Cangel]

Okay, I would like to teach you guys. I'm not sure though I can explain cases so well. For me it's just natural to use them. But I could look online or at our local library for teaching material of any kind.

[Blondie Bear]

I have a "SparkChart" of German grammar, and here's what it says about cases:

Nominative: Articles in the nominative are der (m), die (f), das (n), die (pl). Use the nominative for subjects (the person, place or thing performing the action), predicate nominatives (nouns that don't do anything but refer to the subject of the sentence), nouns of address (ex.: ladies and gentlemen).

Accusative: Articles in the accusative are den (m), die (f), das (n), die (pl). Use the accusative for direct objects (the person or thing acted upon, known, or owned by the subject), nouns following accusative prepositions, expressing temporal relationships, and the expression es gibt (there is/are).

Dative: Articles in the dative are dem (m), der (f), dem (n), den (pl). Use the dative for indirect objects, nouns following dative prepositions, dative verbs, and to indicate personal involvement or reaction.

Genitive: Articles in the genitive are des, -es, -s, -en (m), der (f), des, -es, -s (n), der, -en (pl). Use the genitive for possession, relationships between two nouns, and nouns following genitive pronouns.

That all makes sense in theory, but using them is quite a different matter, especially since so many of the articles are the same. It gives us a place to start, at least.

[Cangel]

okay, I think Genitive is the hardest one, but luckily the less used one these days (people, especiallynot well-educated people, tend to replace it with Dative)
Maybe we should start wih typical sentences for each case?

[kitty-cat]

I'm gonna be your assistant teacher, Social ;-) The cases are not too difficult, especially the Genitive it's quite similar to English. I've tried to explain the cases to an English friend of mine and I hope that it'll help you too...You might want to try to start the way we learn the cases in German. We learned to ask questions for every sentence:

Wer oder was? = Nominativ
Wessen? = Genitiv
Wem? = Dativ
Wen oder was? = Wen oder was?

You have to get the subject as the answer to the question.

The Nominative is the most common one in German.

[Blondie Bear]

KC: Let me make sure I understand. If you turn a sentence into a question and use wer or was to ask it, then the subject is in the nominative case?

(Feel free to smack me if I'm being dumb.)

[Blondie Bear]

Okay, let's try this. The only way to do it is to do it, right?

Ich bin [trying - what the heck is German for "trying?"] gelehrt Deusch. Ich bin sehr schlecht in ihr. Bitte nicht lauchen [at; can't find the right for for this one, either] mich.

So. How much did that suck?

[Cangel]

For your first ry not that bad. Correctly it would've been:
Ich versuche Deutsch zu lernen. Ich bin darin sehr schlecht (oh come on, give yourself some credit). Bitte lacht nicht über mich.

Okay, maybe we should start with syntax. You tend to just use English sentence structures and replace the words. Sadly it's not that simple (believe me; it took me ages to figure out where 'please' went in a sentence)

[Blondie Bear]

Yep, I knew syntax would be an issue. Let's start with simple sentences. In English, we have subject-verb-whatever else. I see from my SparkChart (handy little thing) that word order is dependant upon the position of the verb, which is always the second grammatical unit (which is weird, because I've also heard that the verb comes at the end of the sentence). That doesn't make much sense to me.

[Cangel]

the verb (or modal verb) is at the end of the sentence after relative clauses that start with '...,weil' or something like that.
Simple sentences are easy, really. We use the same SPO structure (Subjekt, Predikat, Objekt) as in English.
For example. I go to school -> Ich gehe zur Schule.

[kitty-cat]

Okay, let's try this. The only way to do it is to do it, right?

Ich bin [trying - what the heck is German for "trying?"] gelehrt Deusch. Ich bin sehr schlecht in ihr. Bitte nicht lauchen [at; can't find the right for for this one, either] mich.

So. How much did that suck?

Okay, I get what you are trying to say, but you should rather say: Ich versuche Deutsch zu lernen. (I am trying to learn German). The sentence structure in German is S P O (subject predicate object). You cannot translate word by word here. This is because in German you often just use the present tense. You tranlasated "am trying" word by word. There is a huge difference in the use of tenses in the two languages. I'm having the same problem with English. I want to use the simple present all the time*lol*.
Okay, the next sentence would be "Ich bin sehr schlecht darin." There are some things you can't just learn with the help of rules, especially the sentence structure and idioms and prepositions. What I did and still do, is watching Tv shows and movies in English and it really helps you, because you actually have to learn so many rules if you want to speak in a very good way. There is no time to think about all the rules of how to form a sentence before you speak. That#s why it should come naturally, you know?

The last sentence would be: "Bitte nicht über mich lachen!" Again, prepositions are hard to learn in every language and practice is the best way to use them right.

But all in all in was actually pretty good. I totally understood what you wanted to say and you were using different sentence types whih is awesome, I think. And the rest will come with practice...

[Blondie Bear]

Ich bin dumm.

Sigh.

[kitty-cat]

Nein, bist du nicht!

[Blondie Bear]

It's kind of overwhelming, how much I'm going to have to learn all at the same time.

Looking at it, though, the syntax seems sort of like Old and Middle English's was. For example, KC, your last comment, translated literally, is "No, be you not!" which is still correct in English, but archaic. Maybe I should start thinking of it that way.

Edit:

This is because in German you often just use the present tense. You tranlasated "am trying" word by word.

For clarification's sake: if I'm in present tense, there's no "to be" verb? Like in English we'd say "am learning," but in German you just say "learn"?

[kitty-cat]

If this helps you, yes. I don't know much about Old and Middle English but it would definitly make sence since both languages derived from Germanic dialects...

You're correct about the present tense in German.

[Blondie Bear]

Yay me! I learned something!

Okay, so we have present simple sentences pretty much down. What about simple past? Is there anything special I need to know about past tense? In English we have, for example, "did" and "have done"; is the German like the present and only have "did"?

[Cangel]

we have two past tenses we use for normal sentences
Like 'I saw a dog.'
You could either say 'Ich sah einen Hund.' or 'I habe einen Hund gesehen.'
I don't really know the difference, but the second one sounds better in this context. I'd have to look up the grammatical rules for that one.

[Blondie Bear]

It looks to me like the first one is (roughly) "I saw a dog" and the second one is "I have seen a dog." Generally (at least in English), they're pretty much the same. I think the difference is in intent. But go ahead and look it up to make sure I'm not talking out of my butt.

[Cangel]

okay, I tried looking it up. In German both mean the same (so nothing about intention) it's just that you use the first one more in written language than German (or when telling a story). And maybe it's just me, but I feel like the second one is a lot more common these days and starting to replace the first one.

[kitty-cat]

"Ich sah einen Hund" is Präteritum, while "Ich habe einen Hund gesehen" is Perfekt. Präteritum is barely used in German nowadays, only in written as Social said...

[Blondie Bear]

Ich habe einen Hund gesehen nicht. Ich habe im mein Büro bin alle Tag.

(Not sure about the habe bin, or the placement of alle Tag, but I did my best.)

[Cangel]

Ich habe keinen Hund gesehen. I war den ganzen Tag in meinem Büro. (or: Ich bin den ganzen Tag in meinem Büro gewesen)

That would be gramatically correct. When you use 'be' in our past tense, you never use 'haben'

[Blondie Bear]

So the "keinen" replacing "einen" indicates negative instead of "nicht?"

I'm working on some online lessons, and things are starting to make more sense (phew!), but can anyone explain to me the use of "denn" in questions and how I know if/where I should use it?

[Cangel]

Do you mean like 'Kannst du mir denn sagen wo du wohnst?' ?
Honestly, if I were you, I'd leave it until you know the basics of the language and get the feeling where to use it. Things you don't have in your own language (and I can't think of an equivalent in English right now) are bound to be tricky (believe me, that's why Russian verbs with their aspects are such a pain in the butt anf also somehting I'll never understand). The best thing to do is look for many many examples how it's used and then in some time you'll get how it works.
Here's the English wiktionary page http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/denn for this word, if you're feeling brave you could also switch to German to try to learn more.
Ah, I'm probably a bad help for learning German, I never know how to explain stuff :(

[Blondie Bear]

Exactly. The lesson page says it's a "flavor word used in questions." From the little bit of work I've done so far, it doesn't seem to translate into English at all--just gets left out of the translated sentence entirely. I wasn't sure how essential it was in German, though.

[XDruX]

Do you mean like 'Kannst du mir denn sagen wo du wohnst?' ?


Vielleicht kann man das so übersetzen:
(Maybe it can be translated as follows)

"Then can you tell me where do you live?"

(though I have to admit that I do not know exactly where to put the then... )

[Blondie Bear]

I PASSED MY GERMAN TEST!!!!!

Though by all rights I shouldn't have. I finished about 65% of it, but since the minimum word count was 300 and he gave me 375, he graded me on the basis of 300, which gave me an 86%.

I'm gonna keep working on it, though, cause now I feel guilty for not knowing it better when I took it.

[Blondie Bear]

Ack, I'm double-posting. But how would you call someone a horse-face or something equally insulting? The reason I ask is cause I'm writing a take on Sleeping Beauty and I want to name the bad faerie something hideous (to help account for her bad disposition).

[Cangel]

I think the literal translation would be 'Pferdefresse' but I'm not sure you should use it, it's really informal.

[InsaneMystic]

Hi there, I only just registered here... Social Suicide commended the board to me. :) I'm a native speaker of German, so if I can be of any help, feel free to ask.

[Blondie Bear]

Okay, here's a few more questions:
1. This is mostly just out of curiosity. Why does German use "haben" for expressing hunger but not other things? I thought it was weird that I'd say "Ich habe Hunger" (which literally translates to "I have hunger") instead of, say, "Ich bin Hunger" ("I am hungry"), BUT you don't say "Ich habe krank," for example.

2. Can anyone explain present and past indicative to me? I'm also working on Old English, and really struggling with these tenses cause Modern English lost them, but it appears German still has them.

Thanks!

[Cangel]

1. That an easy one: 'Hunger' is a noun, ergo, you have it (except when it's a noun you can actually be, like 'Ich bin eine Frau'). 'krank' however, is an adjective. If you wanted to express your hunger with 'be', you'd have to use an adjective, in this case it's 'Ich bin hungrig'.

2.Could you give an example maybe? Do you mean words that you only use in present, or only in the past?

[Blondie Bear]

Present indicative and past indicative are, as far as I can tell, verb tenses. I'm just not sure what they are or when exactly I'd use them, and they affect the endings of the verb. In Old English, for example, a singular verb in first person and present indicative ends with -e ("hopian," or hope, becomes "hopie"). I'm not sure how it works in German; I haven't got quite that far yet.

[Cangel]

Don't you still have that in new English? Like verbes end with -ed in past tense?

[Blondie Bear]

True, but while we have several types of present tense, we don't have a present indicative. Or a past indicative. But it seems, from this (Present tense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_tense)) that German (and Old English) have only one type of present tense? The indicative or simple? Am I reading that right?

[Cangel]

Well I think we only have one present tense.
In English you can say either
He walks to the supermarket
or
He's walking to the supermarket ,
depending on the situation.
The only thing I could understand as indicatives would be adverbs, though. Like if in English I would use -ing because it's happening right now, in German I would have to say something like 'jetzt grade'. I never really think about any of this, we haven't had any grammar lessons in German since the 7th grade (the real ones were in 4th grade) and I talk instinctively anyway. But I think we do have a lot of trouble with tenses in English, and this is exactly why.
Btw., is German hard to learn?

[Blondie Bear]

It's not easy. We don't have as many cases as you guys do (we lost most of them). And the compound words can get hairy.

[InsaneMystic]

Indicative is simply the normal, regular form, the opposite of Conjunctive (which you use mostly for 1) indirect speach or 2) expression of possibilities)... thus English lost the conjunctive and replaced it with the "would"-auxiliary. Btw, exactly the same process is currently going on in German, the formal conjunctive is dying out in spoken language and is less and less used even in written language anymore, you're almost certain to come across as a posh intellectual if you actually speak like that. :wink:

Example:
Formal conjunctive: "Er sagte, Peter hielte das für keine gute Idee."
Colloquial form: "Er sagte, Peter würde das für keine gute Idee halten."
Both translate as "He said Peter wouldn't consider that a good idea."

[Blondie Bear]

That's kind of what I figured; the Wikipedia article (which we all know is the height of reliable information) seemed to indicate that there's really only one present tense in German (and hence Old English), while English has present simple, present progressive, and present perfect progressive.

[Blondie Bear]

Question:
The lesson I'm working on currently says I ABSOLUTELY MUST memorize the declensions of Vater, Mutter, and Haus. Is there a really good reason for this? Are these the only ones whose articles change when they change case?

(If it helps, here's the link for the lessons I'm using. http://learngerman.elanguageschool.net/mod/resource/view.php?id=128)

Edit:

Also: for animals, do I use neuter or male pronouns, or does it depend on the gender of the noun?

[Cangel]

Animals depends...it's die Katze but der Hund...I think it's a bit of what gender we (or probably more our ancestors) associate with that animal .


And these words are important, because cases in German are just a bitca (ask my mother...after 22 years in Germany she still has trouble with the cases from time to time (mostly when she doesn't think about it, and when the word had a different article in Russian)), and well each word has a different article. And these are regular ones, so that means the articles always change, it's not just these words.

[Blondie Bear]

Okay. And one more (this is it for today, I promise): If I'm asking who did something, how do I know what verb ending to use? Cause obviously I don't know if the answer will be male/female/neuter/singular/plural or whatever. (Along those same lines, what verb ending do you use for "no one"?)

[Cangel]

For no one you use singular, the form you would use for he or she.
Example: 'Niemand hat das Brot gegessen.'
ans same for 'who' I think.
'Wer hat das Brot gegessen?'

[Blondie Bear]

On a slightly unrelated sidenote, I was watching The Bourne Identity a few days ago and realized that I had read a few signs and mentally translated a few words without hardly thinking about it. Granted, they were simple things (like a tavern called Die Zwei Hund and a particular swear word), but it still made me feel good about myself. :)

[Cangel]

I know what you mean. That's how I feel with some other languages, Spanish or Frenchfor example (I hardly know any Spanish, and only some French, but still it's always nice to come across familiar things), ohhh, and another classic is of course being able to read something written in Russian. Not a lot of people here know how to do this. Strangely I've never done that with English though...
Well, and as far as German signs or anything else Germa goes in movies...signs are okay, but when people attempt to speak in German it's really amusing. I just remember Cordy saying 'Der Kindestod', and Giles' 'Verbirgt euch nicht hinter falschen Gesichtern' (Gingerbread), it's really funny. And of course there was this Nazi officer on Angel 5x13 who was really supposed to be German. And when he talked all I thought was 'That's how Americans think we talk???'

[InsaneMystic]

Like I wrote in your blog, SS... German is very often used for a little atmosphere, both on TV and in RPG sourcebooks - and most of the time they fail miserably in pulling it off, becoming unintentionally funny. Gee, as if they couldn't afford sparing a few bucks in letting a native speaker glance over it before production, I just don't get it... Like in the written page on screen in Gingerbread, the monk's (was it a monk?) text about "true" Hänsel und Gretel. We both know that was German - not. :lmao:

Btw, I can v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y read the Russian alphabet, but I don't understand anything anymore... had one single 1-semester course "Russian for linguists" at university, pretty much nothing left of that in my brain except the letters themselves.

[Cangel]

Well I learned the Russian alphabet when I was 7 years old, so I can read pretty decently (unlike others who shall remain unnamed).
And well, the German thing is kind of annoying me...I know they want to create this atmosphere, but for me they turn everything just into a huge joke with it.
There was one Voyager episode ('The Killing Game' or in German 'Das Tötungsspiel') that pulled it off pretty well I think. Well, at least the signs were written in grammatically correct german :p

[Blondie Bear]

I can't remember if I asked everyone this or just SS, and if I've already posted it here, I can't find it, but I'm having a bit of trouble with word order on stuff like "nicht" and "jetzt." The lessons I'm using initially said to put these immediately after the verb, but sometimes they have them tacked at the very end of the sentence. For example, we have "Ich gehe jetzt nach Hause" and "Nein, wir gehen nicht nach Hause," but also "Die Leherin verstehet den Schüler nicht" and "Herr Leher, ich vestehe die Aufgabe nicht." Can anyone explain the difference?

[InsaneMystic]

Whoa, one of the things I never thought about... just doing it naturally!

My best explanation is that you put adverbs immediately after the verb if it's intransitive ("ich gehe nicht", "ich warte nicht länger"), but after verb+object(s) if it's transitive ("ich sehe den Mann nicht", "ich gebe dir das Geld nicht"). I can't think of anything disproving that theory atm... but as I said, you just made me think of that for the first time! :)

[Blondie Bear]

Is there a significant difference between da and dort?

I'm beginning to think these lessons aren't the best ever. You'd think they'd explain little things like this.

[Cangel]

I think 'da' means a closer object, and 'dort' one that is further away. Your questions are getting so tough, I've never thought about any of this

[InsaneMystic]

There isn't really a difference except for "da" being more general in meaning (e.g. possibly being used to denoted time instead of place, in the meaning of "and then": "Er hat mich beleidigt, da bin ich gegangen.") You can pretty much always use "da" instead of "dort", but not the other way around.

[Blondie Bear]

Sigh.

What's the difference between "machen" and "tun"? How do I know which to use?

[Cangel]

machen is 'make' and tun 'do' so my idea would be thinking about when you use which in English.
e.g. : To make a cake, einen Kuchen machen
To do the dishes, den Abwasch tun

Well, now that I think about it, there might be a better rule. I think 'machen' could be used whenever you create something, or take influence upon something, while 'tun' refers to something where you rather just participate in something. And also, to me it seems like 'machen' can be used a lot in cases you would normally put 'tun'.

[InsaneMystic]

machen is 'make' and tun 'do' so my idea would be thinking about when you use which in English.
e.g. : To make a cake, einen Kuchen machen
To do the dishes, den Abwasch tun

Well, now that I think about it, there might be a better rule. I think 'machen' could be used whenever you create something, or take influence upon something, while 'tun' refers to something where you rather just participate in something. And also, to me it seems like 'machen' can be used a lot in cases you would normally put 'tun'.
I cringe at "den Abwasch tun"... I would definitely use "machen" in that case.

Originally (as is still easily visible in the words, etymologically) "machen" equalled "to make" (creating smth.) and "tun" equalled "to do" (being active, without a fixed result/end). However, "machen" can nowadays, especially colloquially, be used pretty much always where you would think of using "tun". You're probably on the safe side using "machen" more or less exclusively, while it will always be wrong using "tun" where you'd say "to make" in English.

Actually, using "tun" often may give you a mildly bad reputation with some people, as "tun" is overused by speakers with little knowledge of grammar, as an auxiliary instead of regular conjugation: e.g. "er tut sagen" (please don't ever use sentences like that!! while you do hear this stuff said, e.g. in TV talkshows, it is considered awfully bad German by just about every even semi-educated speaker) instead of the correct "er sagt". Many "education snobs" avoid "tun" whenever possible because of this association with bad grammar.

The only case I can think of atm where I see a clear difference in meaning between "Tun" and "machen" is the questions "Was hast du getan?" vs. "Was hast du gemacht?"
"Was hast du getan?" has a strong undertone of importance, drama and severity (that's what you'd be saying, e.g., when you discover someone has committed a crime, corresponding to English "What have you done?") while "Was hast du gemacht?" is much more neutral, corresponding to "What have you been doing?"

[Blondie Bear]

See, I thought it would be like that--using "machen" when we're talking about creating or influencing and "tun" when it's just a vague doing--but the lessons tricked me again and used "machen" in "What are you doing after school?" That's why I was asking. I'm very confused.

[Blondie Bear]

Here we go. . . . (I haven't learned any tense besides present yet, so bear with me. Also, if you need to correct me, please do it in English! Danke!)

Ich versuche zu sprache Deutsch. Es ist schwierig. Es machst mich fülhe dumm. Bitte lauchst zu mir nicht.

(Good grief, that took forever cause I had to look up almost every word, declension, and case. But I've nearly got the verb conjugations down!)

[InsaneMystic]

I hope I'm not disappointing you too much, but that's still quite a bit off...

Ich versuche zu sprache Deutsch.
With "versuchen", you have to use "zu + infinitive".
If you use a verb with "zu" and it has an object attached, the object must go before the "zu + verb".

Es ist schwierig.
That's fully correct - both the sentence and, sadly, its meaning. ;)

Es machst mich fülhe dumm.
The "make" in "It makes me feel..." shouldn't be translated with "machen". You should either use "lassen" in this case, or go for a slightly different way of wording altogether, using "deswegen".
Also remember that "fühlen" in the emotional meaning is reflexive in German, so it needs a reflexive pronoun to be used with it.
I'm sorry, but the conjugation form of "it makes" is off too. "Machst" is the 2nd singular, you need the 3rd singular.
Also, the word order is the other way around in English than in German with feel + adjective.

Bitte lauchst zu mir nicht.
The German for "to laugh at someone" is "jemanden auslachen". The conjugation is, again, wrong; you need the imperative form here. (Actually, this sentence is rather tricky, I guess - getting the "nicht" at the correct position, since the verb "auslachen" is one of those that will detach its prefix in imperative...)


Do you want to try again with this help, or would you prefer giving you the correct translations directly?

[Blondie Bear]

I think I'm just going to slink over into the corner and smack my head against the wall. Thanks, though.

[Blondie Bear]

*whaps head against wall* I'm never going to actually learn all this. There's too much to think about. Especially with possessives and prepositions. *long sigh*

[Blondie Bear]

Here's yet another question:
When using possessive pronouns, do you go with the gender of the pronoun or the gender of the object being possessed? For example, if you're saying "for his sister," do you use the masculine declension of "his" or the feminine?

[Cangel]

Für seine Schwester. Female. Für seinen Bruder. Male. So the object.
And maybe you should try watching Buffy in German, that might help you with the language.

[Blondie Bear]

Maybe. I wonder if I have German subtitles. . . .

[Blondie Bear]

Ich abschleissen Deutsch Lehrstunde Neun. Ich glaube, ich auffassen et besser. Allerdings, et bleibt schwierig.

I am probably talking like a 2-year-old.

[InsaneMystic]

Allerdings, et bleibt schwierig.
Sorry, but you just almost made me fall off my chair laughing!

That sentence TOTALLY sounds like you come from around my neighborhood! (Nether Rhine region in North Rhine Westfalia) You should say "es", not "et" - replacing the "s" at the end of words with "t" is how people talk in my regional dialect! :lmao:

[Blondie Bear]

I knew that.

But, hey, if that's all I screwed up this time, then I'm doing better, ja?

[InsaneMystic]

Yep, you're definitely improving! You still have to split up the prefix and the stem in the composite verbs, however: "ich schließe Lehrstunde Neun ab", "ich fasse es besser auf".

I just didn't want to start critizing that again immediately, after killing your motivation last time, you know?

[Blondie Bear]

Those are composite verbs?

*sigh*

In my defense, my lessons haven't taught me those words yet; I had to look them up separately. And the dictionary didn't say anything about "ab" or "auf."

Stupid dictionary.

[InsaneMystic]

And the dictionary didn't say anything about "ab" or "auf."

Stupid dictionary.
WTF? Please get another dictionary, fast! "auf" and "ab" are really common words, both as adverbs and as prepositions... and "auf und ab" is absolutely an everyday expression: "up and down", literally.

If it doesn't mention these words, the only use that dic has is as a paperweight!!! *stares in utter disbelief*

[Blondie Bear]

Okay, I just looked at the words again, and I'm getting what you mean. Therefore, the dictionary didn't not mention "auf" and "ab," but, being a dictionary and not a grammar primer, it didn't tell me that those need to be detached and shuffled around. And I haven't yet hit those points in the lessons. I'm just about through with "Book 1" (they're online, so calling it a "book" is a bit silly), so I'm assuming that the people who wrote these lessons find verbs like this a BIT advanced. I'll probably get to them in the next book. Which I should begin within the next week or so.

But in general, some rules that I was REALLY struggling with are starting to fall into place, and when I get something wrong I can usually see WHY it's wrong. So go me.

[InsaneMystic]

Ok, I get what you mean now. And those prefixes are a pain in the ass for foreign learners... because I only just noticed by thinking about it (you know, I usually just do it all naturally) that it isn't even a general rule that preposition-based verb prefixes detach and change position. Some don't detach, ever (e.g., can't really think of any word with "unter-" that would detach); some detach pretty much always (auf-, ab-, durch-, ein- << I think these should be all, or at least most, of them); and some, worst of all, detach in some cases but not others, "über-" being the prime suspect here.

Sorry for our language to be so darn complicated. :sigh:

[InsaneMystic]

some detach pretty much always (auf-, ab-, durch-, ein- << I think these should be all, or at least most, of them)
Add "vor-", "nach-" and "aus-" to the list of those that should always detach.

(Yeah, thinks like this do work on my mind once you set them in motion. ^^ )

[Blondie Bear]

Great. I finally start to understand cases, possessives, and irregular verbs, and you throw something ELSE really confusing at me.

*sigh*

Practice, practice, practice.

[Cangel]

Well my suggestion would be to just learn everything in the order of your book. That way is probably least confusing. So just ignore this until they teach you about it in your book.

[Blondie Bear]

^ That's pretty much the plan. :)