Wow, most of them suck =/

[Clem Rocks]

Ok so i was sitting here the other night and i realise, must of the characters in Buffy and Angel suck, i mean really, think about it.

Buffy - Meh, she was ok at times.
Willow - She had her uses sometimes i suppose.
Xander - Well he was just a prat, why they even had him in Buffy is beyond me.
Giles - The first actual good character on Buffy, always there for a good laugh and had the potential to be an even bigger character.
Dawn - One of the best out of all the characters, extremely underrated.
Faith - Should have been the main slayer, was way more entertaining than Buffy.
Anya - Someone should have said "Bunnies" repeatedly to her on her first appearance until she left and never came back.
Tara - Did she ever become more than just scenery? She wasn't even good scenery. =/
Oz - C'mon, Oz was an idiot, i assume he was just there to make the others look better
Andrew - Had his uses, mostly just for us to laugh at and give Xander someone to talk to.
Riley - Oh god, don't even get me started on him!
Spike - Ok, let's be honest, how many of us watched Buffy just to see how awesome Spike was?

Atleast Angel had better characters

Angel, Spike, Wes, Fred, Illyria, Lorne - All brilliant, not a bad thing about any of them
Gunn - Was always inbetween boring and cool
Cordy - Why, WHY, was she ever in either program? All she did was whine, bitch and moan =| The only character i can think of worse than Cordy is Darla D=
Harmony - Always hilarious, should have been in it since season 1
Lindsey and Conner - Eh, atleast they became good in season 5



So guys, discuss, why we all love Buffy and Angel when most of the characters suck? and which characters can you absolutely not stand and wish were never in Buffy/Angel?

[The Chosen]

To be honest I think this is your biased opinion. There are plenty of people that could and are going to disagree with you. I could walk down the street and say something like, "The world sucks because the grass isn't green in some places!" and others could agree with me. Some won't. I'm not trying to be pissy but just because you have an opinion doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. You're sort of implying that everyone agrees with you, or at least that's what I got from this. Correct me if I'm wrong!

But on the other hand, you are kinda right. I wouldn't flat out say they all suck, though. Just a few of them do. :nod:

[nerd4hire]

Ok so i was sitting here the other night and i realise, must of the characters in Buffy and Angel suck, i mean really, think about it.

Ok, I really thought about and I decided you're wrong. :)

[Clem Rocks]

To be honest I think this is your biased opinion. There are plenty of people that could and are going to disagree with you. I could walk down the street and say something like, "The world sucks because the grass isn't green in some places!" and others could agree with me. Some won't. I'm not trying to be pissy but just because you have an opinion doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. You're sort of implying that everyone agrees with you, or at least that's what I got from this. Correct me if I'm wrong!

But on the other hand, you are kinda right. I wouldn't flat out say they all suck, though. Just a few of them do. :nod:

I'm not trying to imply the everyone agrees with me, those are just my opinions on the characters. Sorry if it seemed like i thought everyone felt that way

So, which ones do you think suck?

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah I would disagree, I definitely wouldn't agree that Spike would be one of the non-sucky characters.

He was brilliant was a bad guy, good when he got the chip. But was hacked away until he was boring and just annoyed the crap outta me.

[Joyce Summers]

Whoa, witness my non agreement. Haha

Buffy - I admit sometimes she was weight-of-the-worldy but hey, she was carrying the weight of the world. I love Buffy, she's one of my favorite characters. Despite all she's gone through she keeps going and tries to be upbeat where possible. And she's loyal, cares about the little guy etc. Plus she's the nucleus, she's the one who inadvertently made the others all realize they had something in common, that they could be a group.

Willow - Willow's quirkiness could bring light to the darkest scene. Or just humor in the most random way. And what made it even better was she acknowledged her randomness; 'Sometimes I'm callous and strange', 'Which is a weird image and you should all just forget it..'. Plus the Wicca thing? She showed that you could still kick butt as the side kick and without slayer advantage. She was such a sweetie. Except when, you know, evil.

Xander - Xander? A prat? Nay! He was great as average joe guy and I loved his humor. Plus his sweet never-failing loyalty made him so cute. I crushed on him for the entire seven years because pf his attitude and personality. And how about his speech to Dawn in Potential? That was SO not prattish.

Giles - Yes. I agree. Giles was excellent. Let's say no more.

Dawn - Dawn is an underrated character, I agree, and you really have to delve through the layers to reach her potential.

Faith - I like Faith; she was interesting, multilayerd but as the main Slayer? Personally, I think it would get boring. She was great to play off Buffy and the others but as the center character and main Slayer the entire theme of the show would have changed and personally, I don't think it would have been as good. We needed Buffy to be the main Slayer because she is so obviously good, while Faith always walks the border.

Anya - Get. Rid. Of. Anya? No way, she was wonderful. First just there for an episode plot line in season 3 and then comic relief in season 4 and most of season 5 but as the character grew she became so much more than that. Sure she still had the comedy, but there was so much heart to her and through her bluntness she could help the other characters realize some things about themselves and she was shown to always care about them. You saw her grow more human every episode and it was just great.

Tara - Tara was way more than just scenery. Without her we wouldn't have had a season 6 finale. Dawn wouldn't have had a mother figure in season 6. Buffy wouldn't have had anyone to turn to. She was integral to the group, just subtley so because that was Tara; subtle.

Oz - Oz? An idiot? He was one of the most sensitive guys we've ever had on the show, and Veruca mishap aside, the most romantic too. The way he was with Willow and his defensive, protective attitude whenever she was in danger- come on, he was the guy every woman dreams of having. The one who'll say 'I'm willing to wait when you're ready because I love you so much'. Plus is larconic and satirical humor? Perfecto, hehe.

Andrew - I kind of agree with what you said about Andrew. But I still enjoyed his character.

Riley - I liked Riley. I will say no more than that because half this site will disagree with me. Haha

Spike - Okay, I liked Spike, he was great, but I didn't ever just watch the show for him. He's another one that while great, was suited as the side-man because too much of him like in a 24/7 sense would have driven me insane.

At least Angel had better characters

See, I always thought the complete opposite. I love the show Angel but I always thought the characters that came only from the Angelverse lacked the background, depth and detailed character history the Buffy characters had. I mean the characters I liked the most on Angel were Angel, Cordy and Wes. All from Buffy originally. Of course I also adored Fred and Doyle but despite how much I loved them, you have to admit we never knew much about their life history before Angel or about their family (only brief glimpses). And that, IMO, always made it just that little bit harder to reach the characters in the same connective way you do on Buffy, even if I do like the guys on Angel

Cordy? How could you question the value of Cordy? She was great as the high school Cheerleader, the mature growing-up twelth grader, the warm figure in Angel S1, the self-sacrificer, evil, the big picture girl, everything. No matter what development character wise Cordy was going through it was enjoyable to watch (though also painful when she went evil...).

Needless to say, I disagree with your post Clem. Haha. :)

[Senior Watcher]

at first i wasnt even gonna reply to this ridiculous thread, but then i thought to myself, "self, if you do respond, you will have the backing of pretty much everyone on the board.....so go ahead."

clem rocks, if you dont like the characters, why are you here? thats just like me saying, "i hate ben and jerrys ice cream, but the next time im at the market, im gonna buy a pint."

i cant help but wonder if you just need attention and decided to post something that thought would get people riled-up.

peace and monkey grease.

[TabulaRasa]

I'm with Senior Watcher, well, I'm always with SW.

Clem Rocks, you need to realise that each of these characters are true to life. Each and everyone of them is someone on this board, someone in this world. We identify with them. Even if you don't think they matter, they do to many other people. Xander may have been pointless to you, but how many people on this board are completely like him? I could make more valid points but I don't think I need to as many other people on this forum know that your opinion doesn't mean anything to them. 'Them' being the ones who feel quite opposite to your opinions.

It's ok to have your opinions, but the way you stated them was kind of stating them for everyone.

[WickedWillow]

Ok, I really thought about and I decided you're wrong. :)

Put the best way so far.

Kind of harsh to say such things about the cast and imply we all feel that way CR.

[definition of insane]

Ok here's me slightly agreeing here but hear me out....Yes there are a bunch flaws with all the characters but here's where I stick in that whole humanistic argument. I mean, if everyone was fantastics, life would be boring and no-one would have a single bit of decent creativity. If everyone on Buffy and Angel were fantastic and awesome all of the time, I wouldn't have watched it as much as I did/do/have/whatever.

So in my opinion...yes, sometimes they suck...sometimes we all suck (although some may beg to differ :p) but hey, that's what makes it interesting.

[FeastOnScraps]

Well actually what keep me glued to both shows is how interesting, complex and engaging the characters where. They all had such a unique scene in both there humour and drama.

[Clem Rocks]

at first i wasnt even gonna reply to this ridiculous thread, but then i thought to myself, "self, if you do respond, you will have the backing of pretty much everyone on the board.....so go ahead."

clem rocks, if you dont like the characters, why are you here? thats just like me saying, "i hate ben and jerrys ice cream, but the next time im at the market, im gonna buy a pint."

i cant help but wonder if you just need attention and decided to post something that thought would get people riled-up.

peace and monkey grease.

I'm here because i love the programs, just not most of the characters, and the reason i posted this was because i thought it would make an interesting topic. But you lot seemed to have missed the point

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

Of course I also adored Fred and Doyle but despite how much I loved them, you have to admit we never knew much about their life history before Angel or about their family (only brief glimpses)

i agree with this about doyle. after all, he died after 9 episodes! :( fred, however, i think we got a good amount of background from her. we saw her parents a few times. in 'supersymmetry' we learned a little about her being in LA the first time at UCLA, and what her school experience/"favourite" teacher was like. there was the flashback in 'a hole in the world'. of course, five years of her life were in pylea, and we knew about that. plus, there was just a lot we learned from what the characters said. i think we knew less about cordy's background (just one example) pre-buffy/angel than fred's! in my opinion, we got a lot about fred's.

in addition, though it is cool to know the background of the characters, we dont want to know every interesting aspect and adventure of their life story pre-the show, or we'd want to watch a show about that. we want to see what is happening to them now. plus, there are some things which it is cool to just let our imaginations wander about, and/or create fanfic about what might have happened :). we do like the background, since it helps build who they are now, and can contribute to interesting plots which come from things that happened to them in their past, but we dont want the whole thing. does that make sense?

EDIT: and just to be a bit more on topic, i guess everyone has different opinions about who they like and hate. i guess thats one of the cool things about BB that people keep talking about; we can talk about who we like and hate with no vicious disagreement (well, except on rare occasions, and then the mods put a stop to it ;)). personally, i like all of the characters on ClemRocks' list, side of riley and connor. in a tiny nutshell, i think they all had interesting personalities that made for good tv, were just really cool people who you could either relate to or would want around, and had great contributions to make to the show.

[edb]

I will admit that probably all of the characters have at some point in time annoyed me, but to my mind that's what makes them good characters - even the ones I didn't like at all. :)

They all have positive & negative points but to me that made them more 3D and more interesting to watch. If they were absolutely perfect it wouldn't seem right - I mean, who would want to be that perfect? ;) Plus, I think that everyone sees something different in everybody, you know, otherwise we'd all be drawn to the same people.

I think they had the right mix of characters on both shows, and I wouldn't have changed the recipe they already had.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :D

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I'm here because i love the programs, just not most of the characters, and the reason i posted this was because i thought it would make an interesting topic. But you lot seemed to have missed the point

Maybe it would help if you made the point a little more clear: if you dislike most of the characters, what is it you love about the show, since it's pretty much all about the characters? "The characters all suck" doesn't give much for anyone to discuss as opposed to just contradicting (or agreeing with) the opinion; "I dislike the characters but I love the show and here's why" might actually offer something to discuss.

[Cangel]

It's interesting how somebody can just take all the characters he doesn't like and assume the whole world feels the same.
Seriously, you've named about 80% of my favourite characters as useless. And on the other hand, you named characters I loat he (like Harmony) as so brilliant. I'm just really glad you didn't get a say in who was in the show and who wasn't.
And of course ylou never like all the characters. Everyone is different and likes different things. There's probably NOTHING in the world that everybody loves.

[Vicariously]

I was going to add a lengthy two cents to this post but having read everyones replies, everything I had to say has already been said. I do however, have a question for Clem Rocks. How is it that you like the program at all if over half of the characters you watch (especially the main three Buffy, Xander and Willow, face it they are in EVERY SHOW throughout the entire series) you claim are uninteresting? You must have found them interesting else you wouldnt have watched...I mean, I guess you would have to explain what made the show interesting to you that kept you watching if the characters obviously didnt.

[sosa lola]

I disagree. :)

And I didn't watch the show for Spike. I started watching it because I liked that brave, smart-ass kid who doesn't have superpowers and yet sticks around to give any possible help he can afford. So, yep, didn't think Xander was pointless, neither did I think that about the other characters.

Buffy would never have made it this far without all the characters you had presented. Funny how Spike, Giles and Clem, your choices, hadn't stuck around for Buffy. Clem fled before the big fight, Giles left Buffy when she most needed him, and Spike preferred fighting with Angel over going to Buffy. The ones you thought were pointless are the ones who still stuck around by her side, just my opinion. :)

Btw, I love all the characters ;)

[Clem Rocks]

Maybe it would help if you made the point a little more clear: if you dislike most of the characters, what is it you love about the show, since it's pretty much all about the characters? "The characters all suck" doesn't give much for anyone to discuss as opposed to just contradicting (or agreeing with) the opinion; "I dislike the characters but I love the show and here's why" might actually offer something to discuss.

The point was clear in the first post. The thread is for discussing what characters you think suck, and why you still like the program despite those characters

[Joyce Summers]

The point was clear in the first post. The thread is for discussing what characters you think suck, and why you still like the program despite those characters

No offense but I think that's an entirely pointless point to a discussion.
Even when characters annoy you slightly you never say 'I think that character sucks' because the next minute they do something amazing. That's what the Buffyverse is about- the character make you think different things about them constantly.
And with such avid fans I don't think you would ever get a particular positive response to 'which characters do you think suck?' because I don't think it's possible to answer.
I mean I hated Warren but I didn't think he sucked.

[Vicariously]

The point was clear in the first post. The thread is for discussing what characters you think suck, and why you still like the program despite those characters

Dont you think the word "suck" is a little harsh to use in refrence to characters that a board is devoted to?

I mean people would be more inclined to answer your question if you used the phrase "which characters could you have lived without" or "Which particular charcters did you dislike"

"Suck" is just well...I dunno I agree with Joyce here, people are gonna be a little defensive rather than answer your question.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

The point was clear in the first post.

No, it really, really wasn't. This:

Ok so i was sitting here the other night and i realise, must of the characters in Buffy and Angel suck, i mean really, think about it.

...and this:

So guys, discuss, why we all love Buffy and Angel when most of the characters suck?

...takes for granted that "most of the characters suck" is an objective fact that other viewers agree with. And with one or two exceptions, none of the examples you list below give any reasons why you think those characters "suck." I also notice that, as far as "Buffy" is concerned, the only characters you think don't suck are those who are antagonists rather than protagonists - with the lone exception of Giles, and even there you relegate him to the role of "comic relief", which he decidedly was not. I don't think the rest of us here are the ones missing a point...

Willow - She had her uses sometimes i suppose. The show was very nearly as much about her journey as it was Buffy's.

Faith - Should have been the main slayer, was way more entertaining than Buffy. Speak for yourself. While I liked the drama that Faith brought to the show, I never liked Faith until Season Seven. Buffy would have been well within her rights if she'd killed Faith in Season Three or Five, except that then we'd have missed the chance to see Faith actually set herself on the path to redemption.

Tara - Did she ever become more than just scenery? She wasn't even good scenery. =/ :rolleyes:

Oz - C'mon, Oz was an idiot, i assume he was just there to make the others look better Well, you know what they say about "assume."

Spike - Ok, let's be honest, how many of us watched Buffy just to see how awesome Spike was? Spike was a good character, but "awesome"? Not hardly. And certainly not good enough for me to watch the show just for him. I might have watched the proposed Spike spinoff just to get my Buffyverse fix, but it would have had to have been more than a one-character show to hold my interest.

Atleast Angel had better characters Not as far as I'm concerned. I even pretty much lost interest in the ones who moved over from BtVS.

and which characters can you absolutely not stand and wish were never in Buffy/Angel? Connor is the only one I can say that about.

ETA: The characters are what drew me into the Buffyverse and kept me there. If I'd hated them, I'd have dropped the show after the first couple of episodes, because for me, fiction is all about the characters. If I don't care about the characters, I don't care about the story.

[UlaGan]

Adding another voice of disagreement: upon re-watching the series for so many times, I came to conclusion that nearly every character served their goal well for the story. Even quite-an-extra-in-my-eyes-Dawn made Buffy mature finally and gave her strength to sacruifice herself for Greater Good, all the boyfirends on this show shaped up, molded the personality of Buffy/Willow, even Xander helped Cordelia to overcome her egoizm and snobbish attitude. Angelus, Parker taught Buffy the lesson of thinking carefully before giving up herself entirely. Also, there were so many talks about Joyce's, Tara's untimely deaths, and we can go on and on here.
As it was already stated above: Why I enjoy this show, despite knowing it by the heart, and watching it for so many times over and over - is it's very realistic portrayal of its characters.
If you think they suck, think just what else would this story be about without them? Would it be worthwatching?

[TabulaRasa]

I am still stuck on how someone can watch a show when to them most of the characters sucked. I don't watch charmed because I don't like it or characters etc, I don't watch How I Met Your Mother because I don't like it or characters, etc. A TON of people love those shows, love the characters. But just because I don't like them I don't think I could ever go to a place where people love those shows and say, HEY, these suck! I have mucho better things to do with my time.

Just try wording it differently next time CR. It could have been a very interesting debate/conversation if we all wouldn't have felt offended. Or felt like you were speaking for us. Truly your post made me feel like we all thought that way of these characters.

[Clem Rocks]

I never tried to offend anyone, and i never tried to make it anymore than my opinion, i don't really see how you lot thought that in the first place =/

[Rowan Hawthorn]

When you can't see/hear the person you're talking to, phrasing is everything. Admittedly, I'm kinda quick to take offense, because at a rough guesstimate, probably 98% of the people who post on the internet/usenet really do assume that their opinions are gospel and/or intend to be offensive. Makes it rough on the other 2%, I guess. But I'm being serious when I say that I really can't understand liking a show where I either hate or can't relate to the characters, because in that case, what is there left to like?

[Joyce Summers]

Your poll also makes it seem as though you are forcing your opinion onto us. You're asking us 'what would Buffy been better as' which is implying that we all think how the group was done was terrible, which isn't the case at all.

[Clem Rocks]

Your poll also makes it seem as though you are forcing your opinion onto us. You're asking us 'what would Buffy been better as' which is implying that we all think how the group was done was terrible, which isn't the case at all.

If you don't like the choices of the poll, you just don't answer it ;)

I thought the last option would make it clear that the poll was just for laughs anyway...

[Bangelxx]

um, I love all the characters (excpet Riley)! I can't believe that you dislike so many of them! and thats your buisness of course but I just thought I'd mention that I think most of the characters are brilliantly made!

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

hm...maybe we should just use this thread (or if not, start a new thread) to give reasons why we think each of the characters on ClemRocks' list were important or unimportant. it was interesting reading the opinions in the lists thus far, such as those of Joyce Summers and Rowan Hawthorn. plus, it gives people the option to explain why they like the characters if they disagree with this thread (which we've kind of been doing anyway :p).

[~angelic slayer~]

I personally love the characters of BTVS, can't really picture the series with anything different.

I mean don't get me wrong, as I re-watch the episodes I can't help but think "aww! Buffy's such a biatch!" one second, but then a few episodes later I'm just as in love with her character as before.

I think one of the things I've loved about the characters from day one is that they AREN'T perfect. They ARE flawed, the DO make mistakes, and sometimes you want to grab them by their shirt and toss them across three countries because they're so damn frustrating.

They're human.

Take any gang of people and there's some that are bound to stand out more than others. There's only so much air time, and with such a large cast I think they did a good job of giving everyone some camera time. So maybe Tara only had a couple episodes exclusively focused on her ("Family" being a big one), but isn't that how life goes? I mean is there really a day when you're the sole centre of attention among your friends? And I try to imagine what seasons 4-7 would have looked like had she not been there, and I really can't figure it out. Same with a lot of the other characters-- would Faith have really stood out as much as she did if the cast had been only say Spike, Giles and herself? In every group you'll have stronger characters and those that kind of fall into the background; which is something I always thought Joss and the team used to their advantage. I'm sure that if the show had been based mostly on the minor characters (Harmony, Dawn, Tara, etc), we'd be having the same arguments about them as we are having now.

And again, sometimes I throw up my arms and totally "give up" on some characters as I'm watching the show, but to me that's how life is. I could rhyme off the sames of dozens of people that I just want to slap up-side the head sometimes. People react badly or just plain wierd to situations sometimes, sometimes they even go totally against anything you would have ever guessed they would have done. Like Buffy cutting her hair randomly in s6, for example. It was a stupid thing to do, wasn't going to solve ANY of her problems, and was pretty much plain old wierd. But she did it anyway. It was her way of dealing.

This is all just my take anyway, I think the cast was so disfunctional that they somehow all fit together. A fit that I don't think I would change if I could have (despite my occational "I hate dawn!!" arguments ;)).


And as a side note.... see Spirit Of Fred's post, she phrased it much better than I! :)

[JCC]

I don't get why everyone's getting so worked up about this.

It's just an opinion on some TV characters.

[Blondie Bear]

Cause it's an opinion on TV characters that everyone loves very much or else they wouldn't be here talking about it and they come here to talk about them because they get laughed at for talking about them out in the "real" world and here is a place where other people like these characters too and it makes them kind of mad when someone here in the safe place starts bashing the characters.

[Senior Watcher]

after my "ranting" post to CR, i decided to follow up with some positivity.

i love pretty much every post in this thread (remember, i said "pretty much"....not "all"). i never really thought about it too much, but one of the reasons i come here is for fellowship with other whedonverse lovers. what i mean is, i have noone at work to talk to about how awesome buffy is; if i did, i might get moved into the basement just like milton from the movie office space.

i love everyone here for their love of whedon-shows and their ability to express their opinion about it.

[palabravampiress]

Like a lot of the other folks, I pretty much loved all of the characters. There are some (like Angel) whom I love to hate and others (like Giles) whom I love more than is normal or appropriate. I feel generally indifferent to some characters, but when I think about them, I tend to realize that they're brilliant (like Riley). lol. Some characters filled me with joy every time I saw them (like Fred). Some characters always made me laugh (like Harmony). All of the characters managed to either make me think or to make me feel something. Many even did both. That's impressive.

Basically, I think they all add something important to the show. I watched Buffy for the characters. I loved the way they interacted with one another, even when one character would make me angry. I loved how much they changed and grew over the years. I loved the absolute transformations undergone by some of the characters. I think the casts of both shows were wonderful. The characters were almost always beautifully written and very believably performed. In terms of character development, I have very few complaints. I have seen few casts of characters that can hold a candle to those in the Buffyverse.

[JCC]

Cause it's an opinion on TV characters that everyone loves very much or else they wouldn't be here talking about it and they come here to talk about them because they get laughed at for talking about them out in the "real" world and here is a place where other people like these characters too and it makes them kind of mad when someone here in the safe place starts bashing the characters.
That's ridiculous. Clem Rocks is here for the exact same reason, and his opinion is that while the show is great, the characters aren't likeable. That doesn't mean that he's mocking you for liking the show, it means that you all take it for granted that people like the characters and become increasingly hostile when someone disagrees with it.

Plus, it's not like you can't talk about Buffy in the 'real' world. Most of my friends love Buffy, and even if they didn't, I still wouldn't get so worked up.

Most of you act as if Clem Rocks has insulted you personally. He hasn't, he stated an opinion about a television show, the same way that I could say "Ah, the lighting in 'Normal Again' isn't up to standard. Bad director, baaaad!"

[TabulaRasa]

That's ridiculous. Clem Rocks is here for the exact same reason, and his opinion is that while the show is great, the characters aren't likeable. That doesn't mean that he's mocking you for liking the show, it means that you all take it for granted that people like the characters and become increasingly hostile when someone disagrees with it.

Plus, it's not like you can't talk about Buffy in the 'real' world. Most of my friends love Buffy, and even if they didn't, I still wouldn't get so worked up.

Most of you act as if Clem Rocks has insulted you personally. He hasn't, he stated an opinion about a television show, the same way that I could say "Ah, the lighting in 'Normal Again' isn't up to standard. Bad director, baaaad!"

Uh yeah when he made it seem like we all felt that way, it was an insult.
Do you even read these posts or just scan for things you want to read?

And you can't like a show if you don't like the characters. Reason you ask? It's the characters the make the show what it is. You can have a great storyline, but have a crappy actor/character, it just won't make that story great. It goes down the tubes with the characters.
Education is key. Don't skip school people.

[JCC]

Education is key. Don't skip school people.
You assuming that I am uneducated sums up everyone's ridiculous reaction to this thread. Did you need to demean yourself to the level of petty name-calling and insults? I'm not stupid, or sub-literate, nor do I have any mental impediment. You need to learn to put up with differing opinion.

Plus, a show can still be good if you don't like all of the characters.

[Blondie Bear]

Plus, it's not like you can't talk about Buffy in the 'real' world. Most of my friends love Buffy, and even if they didn't, I still wouldn't get so worked up.


Just because YOU have friends in the really real world who you can talk to about Buffy doesn't mean everybody does. You're lucky. Most of us don't. Most of us are considered freaks by our real friends because we like a weird Fantasy show with a girl whose name is Buffy and runs around killing vampires cause *valleygirl scoff* how lame is THAT? I'm lucky in that most of my friends are freaks about other stuff (one of my friends is so into Anime that she dresses like an anime character most of the time) and so don't laugh at me about my Buffy lovage, but again, most people don't have this. So they come here, because they know they won't be laughed at. So, yes, people take offense when someone says all the characters suck, because the characters MAKE the show. Saying all the characters suck is slightly different than saying that you don't like the lighting in a specific episode. The characters, en masse, are so integral to the show that many people probably took CR's statements as saying the SHOW sucks. And no, that's not a popular opinion here.

[TabulaRasa]

You assuming that I am uneducated sums up everyone's ridiculous reaction to this thread. Did you need to demean yourself to the level of petty name-calling and insults? I'm not stupid, or sub-literate, nor do I have any mental impediment. You need to learn to put up with differing opinion.

Plus, a show can still be good if you don't like all of the characters.

You assumed I directed that at you? See why education is key? Try to relax man. That was actually sarcasm. And until you can know someone you shouldn't assume.

[JCC]

You assumed I directed that at you? See why education is key? Try to relax man. That was actually sarcasm. And until you can know someone you shouldn't assume.
I can never know you. You're text on my screen. I judge you by how you act, and it's pointless to say "Ah, if you could delve into my mind, you would see that I am different."

If you don't want people to think that you're being unreasonable, think about what people see when you post. They don't see your brainwaves, they see your writings. But I'm sorry for misinterpreting anyway.

[TabulaRasa]

I can never know you. You're text on my screen. I judge you by how you act, and it's pointless to say "Ah, if you could delve into my mind, you would see that I am different."

If you don't want people to think that you're being unreasonable, think about what people see when you post. They don't see your brainwaves, they see your writings. But I'm sorry for misinterpreting anyway.

You can still get to know someone by the text they write.

Anyways, let's try to get back to the real topic eh?
I will go so far as to admit Xander is not one of my favorites. Not even in my top 10, but I don't hate him. I don't think he is pointless in anyway. I don't know what it is about him because most people love him.
I guess he just does things sometimes that makes me want to throw him across the room. Kind of like my neighbor, although I like Xander much, much more.

[Vicariously]

wow so this thread has really done nothing but start problems! If people can't see why most at this board where offended by Clem Rocks' bashing of more than HALF of the charcters on the show, when this message board is devoted to those that love the show in its interity, than I really don't know what to say about that.

Its kinda like joining a Christian message board and then saying... "I Don't know, I love being a Christian but that Jesus? I mean what was the point in him?!"

Obviously not too that extreme, but you get the picture? What's worse, is that I am actually inclined to post in this utterly useless thread to defend my love of the show.

Clem Rocks is entitled to his opinion. He doesnt have to love every character, but to basically take the enitre cast and call them useless, well it just make you wonder with that much distaste for virtually the entire cast... how is it that they can even bring themselves to enjoy a single episode? Let alone be a fan? It just doesn't make sense. And to then imply that we all agree is well...obviously we don't!

Besides its not like we condemed him for his opinion, just questioned how he could seriously consider himself a fan?!

[JCC]

wow so this thread has really done nothing but start problems! If people can't see why most at this board where offended by Clem Rocks' bashing of more than HALF of the charcters on the show, when this message board is devoted to those that love the show in its interity, than I really don't know what to say about that.

Its kinda like joining a Christian message board and then saying... "I Don't know, I love being a Christian but that Jesus? I mean what was the point in him?!"

Obviously not too that extreme, but you get the picture? What's worse, is that I am actually inclined to post in this utterly useless thread to defend my love of the show.

Clem Rocks is entitled to his opinion. He doesnt have to love every character, but to basically take the enitre cast and call them useless, well it just make you wonder with that much distaste for virtually the entire cast... how is it that they can even bring themselves to enjoy a single episode? Let alone be a fan? It just doesn't make sense. And to then imply that we all agree is well...obviously we don't!

Besides its not like we condemed him for his opinion, just questioned how he could seriously consider himself a fan?!
Where did he say that you all agree with him? This thread was never about the members of BB.

"OMG HE BASHED CHARACTERS NOOOO"

-Xander has been really annoying on more than one occasion.
-Reiterate previous sentence but insert any character name there.

"OMG CHRISTIANITY METAPHOR"

-Fail. This is a television show, not your pseudo-salvation.

"HOW OH HOW CAN HE BRING HIMSELF TO ENJOY THE SHOW?"

-Because the storylines can be good even if the characters aren't likeable for him. We all see different things in different people.

Edit:

I wasn't being rude. The people who are being rude are the ones who are attacking Clem Rocks because he doesn't like some fictional characters.

[Old Master 3.0]

Okay guys and gals, let's knock it off, shall we?

While we all can appreciate that most of us feel passionately about our Buffy and Angel shows, and have a right to our opinions, board discussions cannot be allowed to degenerate into these mud-slinging contests, which I can see is starting to happen with THIS discussion.

You want to scrap, well hey, that's fine by me. But take it outside the Board. Resolve it outside the Board, and leave it out there.

However, if you want to have a nice civil discussion, then by all means, please do so.

Bring this thing back on topic, people. And be cool, if you please. This continues down the path it's started to take, and the thread gets closed.

Be at peace, folks.

[Vicariously]

Out of respect for you Old Master III and the rest of the board I wont post the original response to the questions asked by "Mr. JCC" from my previous post. And I will do my best to avoid further discussion in this thread. It will only further annoy me anyhow and its not worth my time. So I will go back to the rest of the boards and celebrate "the buffy love".

[Buffy obsessed fan]

Whoa there, let's apply the break and check our rear and side view mirrors (Well, can't have a dramatic entrance without at least ONE Buffy quote, can I? ;)) Anyway, back on topic, I get that you won't like all the characters, but half the things you said were not only biased but rudely un called for.

First off, Xander wasn't a pratt, he was one of the best characters in the show, okay, so he didn't posess any powers, but that's no reason to say he sucks, all the characters you seem to like have powers or are demons, just because Xander didn't, he was the closest to real life character on the show, in my opinion. Next thing, okay, Anya's my favourite character but I'll try not to be biased, but there's really nothing wrong with her, basically you implied that you don't like her 'cause she has a bunny phobia? I had a terrible fear of them between being 6 and 10, and that didn't effect who I was, and there's nothing else you really commented on about her, so yeah...Now, the thing that got to me most, was what you said about Tara. Usual piece of scenery?!? Am I watching a different show here? Tara was one of the most important characters in the show between seasons 4-6 without her, the show wouldn't have taken the turns it did, they wouldn't have had enough people to bring Buffy back, she wouldn't have been able to help Buffy with her Spike problems, and she would have never died, Willow would have never gone evil, making a much suckier season six finale and a much suckier season seven. And Cordy? How did she whine all the time? In season 1 and 2 of Buffy, sure, but then getting into season three, she changed, and in Angel, whoa, big change, she became a higher being for frigs sake. Most of your opinions were completely biased, and the only one I agree with was about Riley.

[Crazy Flakes]

Well, Clem Rocks, even though I disagree, you're entitled to your opinion...

But am I the only person who thought the Angel characters were much less entertaining and layered than the Buffy ones? I mean, they're both really great shows, but I like Buffy more because I'm much more drawn to the characters.

[Joyce Summers]

But am I the only person who thought the Angel characters were much less entertaining and layered than the Buffy ones? I mean, they're both really great shows, but I like Buffy more because I'm much more drawn to the characters

Crazy Flakes- you have just voiced EXACTLY how I feel about the Angel characters. I completely agree. I mean I love Angel and every character but they never reached me on the same level the Buffy people did. With Buffy characters you always seemed to know their history, their likes, their dislikes. Whatever action they did, no matter how crazy, we understood why because we knew the characters extremely well and so understood them also.

Angel characters were great but never seemed to have that same depth.

[Bad Boy Irish]

Why would you even waist your time in thinking about such a thread let alone making, why do you think people watch the shows or join forums like these unless they like there characters from each show. Sure each character has ther flaws, but that is what makes them and the shows so great, they should have never cancled ANGEL!! it was jsut getting better, although i have to agree with you about Cordillea i was hated her, the only good thing about her was when she got kicked off the show and they wouldnt take her back huray!!!!!!!!

[nerd4hire]

I don't know Joyce Summers, and Crazy Flakes. I don't want to sound mean here, but I can't help thinking if you're making a connection between ease of personal connection and character depth, or character layers, life either has some unpleasant surprises for you, or it has already served you a few.

People like politicians, con men, and car salesmen make a living out of being able to make such easy connections. The fact you like somebody doesn't imply depth, or layers to their character. Angel characters are possibly darker than Buffy ones, but that in no way implies they're shallow.

[Joyce Summers]

People like politicians, con men, and car salesmen make a living out of being able to make such easy connections. The fact you like somebody doesn't imply depth, or layers to their character. Angel characters are possibly darker than Buffy ones, but that in no way implies they're shallow.

No, no I didn't mean the characters themselves were shallow. Not at all. I thought the characters on Angel were just as full of depth and meaning as they were on Buffy. All of them had many, many layers (Most particularly Wes who was like an utter onion. But the yummy kind. Haha). What I meant was, we didn't get the in-depth history behind the characters as we did on Buffy. The only person whose history we knew in detail on Angel was well...Angel. And for me to feel a deeper connection with a character I personally like to feel like I've taken their life journey with them, I know that much about them. I mean I feel like I've known Willow since her yellow-crayon-breaking days and her and Xander during the we-hate-Cordelia club, that I knew Buffy before L.A...and that's what gives me a deeper connection to the characters. That sense of...well, family-like history.

On Angel I never felt I got that. But I definitely didn't mean I thought the actual characters had a lack of depth. The characters themselves were very depthy. As I said; many layers.

I hope that explanation made sense...I may have babbled. A lot.

[eunsoma]

Go Cordy woot for Cordy

[TheHeartist]

Ok so i was sitting here the other night and i realise, must of the characters in Buffy and Angel suck, i mean really, think about it.

Buffy - Meh, she was ok at times.
Willow - She had her uses sometimes i suppose.
Xander - Well he was just a prat, why they even had him in Buffy is beyond me.
Giles - The first actual good character on Buffy, always there for a good laugh and had the potential to be an even bigger character.
Dawn - One of the best out of all the characters, extremely underrated.
Faith - Should have been the main slayer, was way more entertaining than Buffy.
Anya - Someone should have said "Bunnies" repeatedly to her on her first appearance until she left and never came back.
Tara - Did she ever become more than just scenery? She wasn't even good scenery. =/
Oz - C'mon, Oz was an idiot, i assume he was just there to make the others look better
Andrew - Had his uses, mostly just for us to laugh at and give Xander someone to talk to.
Riley - Oh god, don't even get me started on him!
Spike - Ok, let's be honest, how many of us watched Buffy just to see how awesome Spike was?

Atleast Angel had better characters

Angel, Spike, Wes, Fred, Illyria, Lorne - All brilliant, not a bad thing about any of them
Gunn - Was always inbetween boring and cool
Cordy - Why, WHY, was she ever in either program? All she did was whine, bitch and moan =| The only character i can think of worse than Cordy is Darla D=
Harmony - Always hilarious, should have been in it since season 1
Lindsey and Conner - Eh, atleast they became good in season 5



So guys, discuss, why we all love Buffy and Angel when most of the characters suck? and which characters can you absolutely not stand and wish were never in Buffy/Angel?

Erm...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...no.

[Entiel]

since you hate all characters why do you watch the show?:s
I love them all(others more others less but all nevertheless)
I just couldn't understand the meaning of a post that criticizes without actual facts some characters in a site that is made by those who love 'em...anyway your opinion and your free will so I guess that's all..hf

[Hello Cutie]

Wow. So you watch Buffy and Angel because?? Don't tell me, the wit and catchy one-liners.

But seriously, you're entitled to your opinion. But you're wrong. Sorry, you just are.

Also, I just feel like if you dislike the characters this much, you're on the wrong forum, love. This is for fans of Buffy and Angel... not the 'we hate all the characters in the Buffyverse because they are pointless, meaningless and rubbish, except Dawn who is argueably the most annoying of the lot anyway' forum. Infact, I don't think that forum exists, but you're welcome to try and find it! :)

Maybe I'm just not seeing your point here, but how can someone be a fan of a programme where you hate the majority of the characters?!

[Blondie Bear]

Who resurrected this thread and why?! Let it die!!

[littlewilly]

Clem Rocks? Im suprised at how much you dislike quality characters, but your favorite is.... Clem.... that just says it all.
The main best thing about both the shows is the fact most of the characters are amazing.
If i take away the ones i hate, which would only really be Illyria and Gwen, almost everyone else in the Buffyverse were, for whatever reason, very interesting.

Edit:

Haha, great thread, just been reading through it there. Some people are too funny, getting seriously worked up and stuff.
I mean, who dosnt love reading these sort of threads, its better than everyone agreeing with each other.

[Dlou444]

I don't know, I can see SOME of where you're coming from. At least as far as being helpful in a crisis. Anya, Oz, Dawn, Cordy, Xander...none of them were overly helpful when it came to the nitty gritty dirty work. But, they did have their place. If only in the amusing banter. In fact, most of Oz's lines in general give me the giggles. Which IS something important, even if it's not in demon killing.
But I think that the fact that none of them were SUPER and all had flaws (except maybe Illyria) was part of their greatness.
I don't think it would have been nearly a good show if everyone kicked butt all the time!

[JollyApe]

But of course they sucked. That's why we are here. Flawless superheroes seldom get cult-followings, or well they do, but for other reasons.

Though some of your opinions might be a little personal there is definitely some truth to it. Tara was definitely an underdeveloped character that was mainly only used as eye-candy and a plot-device. Xander was in many was a selfish prat, but that's what made him human. That said there really aren't any characters I can't stand. I'm actually rather fond of the show as it is, with flaws, humanity and everything.

[LorneyTunes]

Well to be Honest without the boring character which i think there are hardly any the more lively ones would not stand out.

I love them all ,without a boring character theres no one to hate or laugh at how dull they are x

[Buffanator]

I think all the characters had their positive/negative moments. The point of BtVS and Ats (IMHO) was to show the differences of all us - how no one is "entirely good" or "entirely evil" - but everyone has their mix of good & evil.

For example, Buffy - who we all know as "good" of course - what about when she wanted/tried to kill Faith in order to save Angel? I understand that her love for Angel & her anger at Faith were deeply intertwined. But killing a human? As Buffy said about Warren: "Being a Slayer doesn't give me a license to kill. Warren's human... the human world has its own rules for dealing with people like him." And the way I see it, Buffy was not just trying to save Angel... she was also looking for revenge on Faith.

Angel/Angelus... it doesn't get any more good/evil than that! And the flashbacks, where we get to see Liam, Angelus, and Angel BEFORE he met Buffy - man, what variety! LOVE IT!

Willow - oh, our beloved Willow! - anybody who watches the show knows the many layers of Willow. In fact, Willow was my favorite character (until I met Spike :hehe: ) and I loved her quirkiness & dorkiness & geekness... and I equally loved Dark Willow! - I loved seeing her exact revenge on Warren, but I know some people didn't like seeing her evil like that at all.

Xander - Also one of my fav characters in the beginning. Every hero needs its clown/grounder. Xander was both. Always with the jokes - which, if you look deep enough, you figure out that Xander joked mostly to hide his pain & fear. And he was the "True Blue" friend - so loyal, always there to help, even if he couldn't really "help" that much. And he grew into a strong man - not just helping with the good fight, but keeping his friends from falling apart (as they so often did.)
And as it was noted in S-7, he was the "seer" - nuff said.

Spike - IMHO, the most changing character on the show. And yes, he IS my favorite, all thru his "big bad" days, his chipped Spike, buffy-loving Spike, souled Spike, and finally (on Angel) ghost Spike... but I can run amok on every character.

I think about the "other characters" such as Oz... how hurt he was to see Willow kissing Xander... but then the next season, he screws another werewolf.

And Cordy... from bratty cheerleader on Buffy to "I'm Cordelia, I don't think, I know" on Angel. Her character grew in all sorts of ways.

Fred? - OMG, Fred! - from crazy Pylea cow to help-the-team with her brain lover of Charles, to demon fighter to demon... she too, grew in all sorts of ways.

Even the characters I didn't particularly like (Dawn/Connor) I still had respect for them. Dawn's whiney "pay attention to me!" brattiness got on my last nerve, but MT played her brilliantly. And she was awesome in OMWF.

And Connor - I loved the whole idea of his existence, his special powers coming from his parentage, "the child who shouldn't have existed but he did" ... but god yes he pissed me off everytime Angel TRIED to help him & he just went halfass psycho on him. (I'm not a fan of "troubled teens" stories...)

Still - even the flawed characters were a part of the show(s) that I loved AND STILL LOVE so much. The show wouldn't have been as good without the protagonist & antagonist layers of each character. Seeing them forced to grow... as Sweet said... "Now THAT'S entertainment!"

And I apologize for the length of this post! ;)

[Dlou444]

Spike - Ok, let's be honest, how many of us watched Buffy just to see how awesome Spike was?

I'm sorry, but there are just not enough comments on how funny this line in the original post was!

(Even I had trouble remembering with that line about Cordy)

Clem, buddy, you gotta make your other lines less so that the ones like this stand out and we can all laugh our butts off. We need a little more snickering in our lives!

[JollyApe]

The point of BtVS and Ats (IMHO) was to show the differences of all us - how no one is "entirely good" or "entirely evil" - but everyone has their mix of good & evil.

Except for Wes, who was evil all the time.

[Ripper 08]

i think you've been a little harsh i think every character had something wrong with them but lets face it who doesn't no body is perfect no body.even though eache character had something wrong with them there where also many good side to each and every character.i'm sure i'm not the only one who will say this but i think everyone can relate to pretty much every main character in buffy/angel in one way or another,this helped us feel part of the show as we have experienced similar things and it helps to no how people deal with them fictional characters or not it helps.

to say all the characters sucked is wrong without the characters/actors and atrecsses used i don't think the show could or would have been where it is today!

everybody sucks in someway, and perfection is something everybody strives for and sadly will never be met,don't just focuss on the sucky bits as there's more to everthing than that

[The Ferg]

@Clem Rocks: You sound like you can't stand any character that has any depth in them. Any character that isn't, obviously, good or evil.