Did Buffy love Spike?

[babyo0ogirl]

In "Chosen" Buffy finally tells Spike that she loves him, but he replies with "No, you don't, but thanks for saying it" (or something to that affect). Do you think that she really loved him? I think she really did for a long time, but was too afraid to let anyone (especially herself) know it. What do you guys think?

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I think there are lots of categories of "love." And while Buffy probably did eventually come to feel something for Spike, I don't see it as being the "You're the one" kind of love that he wanted.

[babyo0ogirl]

I don't necessarily think that she wanted to be with him forever, but like she told Angel, she wasn't ready for that with anyone yet....but I still think she loved him a lot more than she wanted to let on. If that makes sense.

[Starlet]

I believe Buffy did love Spike. I think she started to feel it a long time before, but she didn't want to admit it to herself. In "Chosen" when she tells him that she loves him she looks to me like she was finally realizing it. Of course her feelings for Spike weren't the same as for Angel but this time it was a very mature love. It came from all these things they came through together. They knew each other very well and after all they was always honest with each other. Buffy felt free to tell Spike things she couldn't talk about with Scoobies, like for example how she felt when she came back from the death.

[Vicariously]

I think this topic has been discussed many times over and It seems everyone has a diffrent opinion. I think that Buffy loved Spike but not in the sense of being "in love" with him. I think that she loved who he was. If that makes sense. While I appreciated Spuffy (especially after Riley) I am truly a bangle fan. I believe them to be soul mates and I believe that is where her heart will always be. Sorry for the biased opinion. LOL :P

[bradlee]

I think while she may have loved him, it was more like a respective love. She loved him for what he was doing, and for how he had proven himself a different man. I liken it to after you have a rocky breakup with someone and you find a place where you can be together later on and you still love them. Does that make sense?

[xgirlanachronism245x]

I think she did LOVE him, but was not IN LOVE with him.
There is a difference.

I think that once she came to terms with her life, and with his unlife, she appreciated his love and his resilent nature.
He never left her, like the others, but he didn't take her crap.

But I don't believe Buffy loved Spike in the way he wanted her to. If you remember, Spike showed more restraint and compassion sans soul than any vampire. She constantly compared him to Angel, who had his soul forced upon him to act as a muzzle. But she only expressed her love of him after he got his soul, which tormented him constantly. He tried to prove himself a better man without the soul but realized she would never let herself love a soul-less vampire, even if he proved himself time and time again.

I don't believe Buffy could ever give Spike the love he wanted, which is why he said "No, you don't."

I'm babbling and there is more to this. I just can't seem to get it all out.

[Giants Rule 04]

I agree with most of the people that have replied here. While I think that Buffy loved Spike, it was not the type of forever love that she had with Angel. She respected him and had very strong, loving feelings for Spike, and I think that if they had both lived, there was a chance that it could have turned into a forever type of love.

[LIENDINGES]

I agree with most of you, I also think that Buffy loved Spike. But she was not IN LOVE with him. I think she wasn't ready for loving anyone at that point. But i'm sure Spike got really to her. I believe tthey would never be together but I also believe that what they had was really special and something that you can't find just somewhere around the corner. It was something really touching and special.

[white avenger]

Buffy told Dawn that she "Felt for him," she told Angel that Spike was "In my heart," and asked Willow why she thought that she was "Still in love," with Spike, and told him in what she honestly believed were his last moments on earth that she "Loved him." . That she had feelings for him is a certainty. Whether she felt the kind of love that leads to a long term relationship with him, or anyone else, for that matter, I have honestly begun to doubt.

[PhenixRising]

I can not give an unbiased opinion on Spike because I hate the character and believe that Joss Whedon broke his own canon to keep Spike around. With that said I think that Spike and Buffy had an extremely unhealthy relationship before and after the soul. However it is entirely possible for people to love each other in dysfunctional relationships. I Just do not understand how Buffy would come to love such an unrepentant PoS. Also, I'll take Spike on face value when he tells her that she doesn't love him.

[IdiotJed]

Of course she did. Love isn't black and white, there's so much gray it's not even funny.

[palabravampiress]

I don't know how anyone can think she didn't love Spike.

My brain is all fuzzy and tired right now, so I really don't have the brain power to analyze Buffy on more than a Giles = hot level, so intelligent analysis and critical insight will have to wait for another day. The gist of my usual argument, though, is that I think that of all of Buffy's romantic relationships, Spike was the person with whom she had the deepest, most meaningful connection. They began as worthy opponents, then they became reluctant allies, then friends, then lovers, and then, finally, they fell in love. They knew each other on all levels. They knew each other's strengths and each other's weaknesses. They'd seen the best AND the worst in one another. Over the course of those experiences, they forged a connection. Spike knows Buffy like no one else does. And she knows him like no one else. That kind of love isn't pretty. It's not hearts and flowers and its not for kiddies. But it's real and it's lasting and it'll get you through an apocalypse or two -- literal or metaphorical.

In many ways, their relationship reminds me of the one that I have with my hubby. No - we never tried to kill/rape/maim or otherwise harm each other. I'm just saying that we've known each other since we were kids. We've seen each other through crises. We've seen each other with other partners. We've seen a lot of not-so-stellar moments (okay; most of those were mine). Other men tried to put me on a pedestal. They wanted to love their perfect idea of me and ignore or deny the rest. But my hubby... he loves me warts and all. He can acknowledge my faults and love me not in spite of them, but even in part because of them. And I feel the same way about him. I, personally, am hard-pressed to call any other kind of love "love."

So when someone asks me whether or not Buffy loved Spike, I always think, "how could she not?" You don't bare your soul - warts and all - to someone the way she did with Spike and walk away with your heart untouched. She let him in in a way in which she has never let anyone else in before or since. I'm not saying he was the love to end all loves or better than or worse than certain other loves. I'm just saying that if what I saw develop with them over time and come to fruition at the end of season 7 wasn't love, then I don't know what is.

[IdiotJed]

I don't know how anyone can think she didn't love Spike.

My brain is all fuzzy and tired right now, so I really don't have the brain power to analyze Buffy on more than a Giles = hot level, so intelligent analysis and critical insight will have to wait for another day. The gist of my usual argument, though, is that I think that of all of Buffy's romantic relationships, Spike was the person with whom she had the deepest, most meaningful connection. They began as worthy opponents, then they became reluctant allies, then friends, then lovers, and then, finally, they fell in love. They knew each other on all levels. They knew each other's strengths and each other's weaknesses. They'd seen the best AND the worst in one another. Over the course of those experiences, they forged a connection. Spike knows Buffy like no one else does. And she knows him like no one else. That kind of love isn't pretty. It's not hearts and flowers and its not for kiddies. But it's real and it's lasting and it'll get you through an apocalypse or two -- literal or metaphorical.

In many ways, their relationship reminds me of the one that I have with my hubby. No - we never tried to kill/rape/maim or otherwise harm each other. I'm just saying that we've known each other since we were kids. We've seen each other through crises. We've seen each other with other partners. We've seen a lot of not-so-stellar moments (okay; most of those were mine). Other men tried to put me on a pedestal. They wanted to love their perfect idea of me and ignore or deny the rest. But my hubby... he loves me warts and all. He can acknowledge my faults and love me not in spite of them, but even in part because of them. And I feel the same way about him. I, personally, am hard-pressed to call any other kind of love "love."

So when someone asks me whether or not Buffy loved Spike, I always think, "how could she not?" You don't bare your soul - warts and all - to someone the way she did with Spike and walk away with your heart untouched. She let him in in a way in which she has never let anyone else in before or since. I'm not saying he was the love to end all loves or better than or worse than certain other loves. I'm just saying that if what I saw develop with them over time and come to fruition at the end of season 7 wasn't love, then I don't know what is.

Wow! I'd hate to read what you'd put if you had all your brain power. lol I thought my response was the short, unthought of one. lol
That's what I was trying to say is what you said...

No, my friend, this brain is the one all fuzzy... ::huh1::

[Kana]

The one thing that really annoys me is the infamous "Why does everything think I'm still in love with Spike" line. Many Spuffy fans use this as a life line when arguing about Buffy's feelings about Spike and to be honest, it makes me feel sorry for them.

The first time she admits she loves Spike and it's played out almost as a joke, without sentiment. Believe you me, I'm coming at this from a Spuffy perspective. She could hardly reconcile herself with having loving feelings for Spike and then it's suddenly accepted and is a offhand comment, virtually without sentiment? Bangelists would get more satisfaction from her line in Selfless about Buffy loving Angel more than she'll ever love anything in the world. If this line is legitimate, I feel sorry for hardcore shippers. Spuffy deserves more than that.

[bufbuf]

I think that Buffy's love for Spike had more of an adult feeling towards him, were as Angel was Buffy's first love. Spike was there for Buffy when she needed him and for that she loved him.

[buffy4spike4eva]

I think she did love him for a while in season 6... I really do...When she told Tara about sleeping with spike I don't believe she would of told anyone if it didn't mean anything to her...

[RogueHunter]

Spike had very clear sight. Spike was able to look at things and separate the BS from the truth and he knew how she felt.

[groovygarden]

I think she was in love with him.

By the end I think Spike knew Buffy better than anyone else did, so I was thinking on the train this morning, how come I think she loved him, but he said she didn't?

Personally, I think it's because he knew that she didn't love him in the same way he loved her. He was coming to the end of his journey and knew himself better than he ever had before, and he knew Buffy was the one. In comparison Buffy's journey had only just begun - she was still cookie dough - capable of love, but, perhaps rightly, not yet ready to let herself go completly. And if Buffy was only cookie dough by the end of season 7, she was still raw ingredients during her relationship with Angel.

When I was watching Buffy when it first aired, the Bangel relationship appealed a lot - it was like a fairytale love story. But now I'm a bit older (urgh 11 years!) I find Spuffy more interesting and realistic. It's still a love story, but a slightly more grown up one. It's still romantic, but also complicated and messy at times.

On another note, what do people think happened on that last night before the battle? That scene where Buffy walks into Spike's cellar and they stand opposite each other. In the commentary Joss said he left it like that so viewers can make their own decision what happened, which was very nice of him. Personally I think they slept together, but not in a season 6 kind of way! Completely the opposite in fact.

[white avenger]

I think she was in love with him.


On another note, what do people think happened on that last night before the battle? That scene where Buffy walks into Spike's cellar and they stand opposite each other. In the commentary Joss said he left it like that so viewers can make their own decision what happened, which was very nice of him. Personally I think they slept together, but not in a season 6 kind of way! Completely the opposite in fact.

In the commentary, Joss said that he wanted that fade to black scene with Buffy and Spike the night before the final battle to be as ambiguous as possible in order for each fan to pretty much imagine whatever they wanted there. Did they make love? Did they sit and reminisce about their time together? Did they sit up all night discussing strategy? Did they make plans for the future? Take your pick.

[palabravampiress]

We actually had a thread about that, groovygarden, but I can't find it anymore. Does anyone know where it went?

Anyway, I pretty much agreed with your take on it. I thought that since his pretty, sparkly soul took down Hell the next day, it meant that he had been forgiven. And if you're a poet who does wrong, goes on a quest of redemption, survives the trials, and comes back victorious, yet humble and facing almost certain death in your next battle, what do you get to make the whole thing something other than depressing? The girl, of course. I said it better in that other thread, though.

[Kana]

At first I felt that if they'd slept togther, it would miss the point of the moment but then I realised that whether they slept togther or not is irrelevant. I think Buffy gave herself to Spike in a way she's never done. Whether it was holding hands or more that was really the key. She may have slept with him but the boundaries she's often put up with him were down for the first time that was more than Spike could have asked for.

[Dancing man]

I think Buffy loved Spike but her love for Angel was greater, also I think she was denying herself in a fools hope that her and Angel could get back togther in a realistic circumstance. I dont think Buffy Truly loved Spike, she didnt allow herself to probaly to avoid pain and loss. I reckon she was also a bit annoyed she had fallen for a vampire again.

[palabravampiress]

A lot of people make that argument, Dancing man. They say she loved him, but not "truly." What does that mean, exactly? If you follow the logic there, if you don't have true love what you have must be false love. Is that even possible?

What I see as the main difference between Bangel and Spuffy, at least from Buffy's POV, is that Buffy loved Angel without reservation or restraint. It was an all consuming, no holds barred kind of love. It was also incredibly naive, as a lot of that relationship was built on Buffy's desire to pretend that she was a normal girl and that Angel was a normal boy when, really, they were anything but. The downfall of that relationship was, in many ways, also what made it great: the way they romanticized everything and put their love above all else.

Partially as a result of that experience, she was more careful and more reluctant in all of her future relationships. The only other time she tried to jump in head first again was with Parker, and she got burned again. It was the same story, only in human terms: when you sleep with a gentleman at night, you wake up next to a jerk in the morning. With Spike, she took off the rose-colored glasses, called a Spade a Spade, and was extra careful to refrain from getting entangled again. She went too far in the opposite direction never for even an instant letting herself or Spike forget or romanticize the fact that they were first and foremost slayer and vampire. They were never just woman and man, never just Buffy and Spike. Disaster ensued. The relationship fell apart.

What I see here are two very similar relationships with very similar issues. Both fell apart, though, at least in part because of two equally extreme and yet opposite approaches. Buffy went into the relationship with Angel having faith in the belief that everything would work itself out. She went into the relationship with Spike having faith in the belief that nothing would ever work itself out. I'm not really sure the word "true" describes Buffy's perception of either of those relationships. In fact, if I were going to have to pick "True" or "False" for both relationships, I'd probably call both "False," since I don't think Buffy allowed herself to think of either relationship in a very honest, realistic fashion.

But here is where things get tricky: Spike went out and earned a second chance. Buffy called a spade a spade with Spike, so he went out and became something different. He changed. He became a man, or as close to one as he could become. Angel saw an insurmountable obstacle and left; Spike saw that same obstacle and rewrote the script. In season seven, Buffy didn't have any preconceived notions or expectations. She was very careful never to label their relationship. When she knew how she felt, she said so (Ex: "I believe in you"). When she didn't, she was honest about that, too (Ex: when she said she just wasn't ready for him to be gone). She was honest, sometimes brutally so, such as when she told him that he was weak and that she needed warrior Spike back. In the end, she said she loved him. If any of Buffy's loves are going to be considered "True," I think it should be this second-go-round with Spike. It was the only one that I saw as honest.

That's why, for me, the designation of Angel as Buffy's one "true" love simply doesn't hold water. But maybe it means something different for those who do see Angel as Buffy's true love. So what does that term mean for you?

[girlunstrung]

I think Buffy ended up loving Spike, yes, but not quite... being in love with him. Not in the same life-changing, earth-shattering way as she loved Angel. I think Spike's and her "relationship" was much more mature, anyway, due to the fact that when her and Angel got involved she was an ickle teenager.

[Spikes FFL]

Everyone has some pretty intense and incredible insights into Spuffy.

I am a Spuffy lover, for all the same reasons as everyone else... But did Buffy really love Spike?

I believe she did. And I agree with Palabravampiress, in that Angel was a pure love for Buffy, it was young and naive and pure. Everything was wonderful, until it wasn't. With Spike, everything was more mature. Buffy had grown up quite a bit since Bangel, and Spike made her see things more clearly. She was a Slayer, he was a vampire... It can be no other way. The world is dark, and things get scary, and you can't just pretend that you are normal when you're not. You can't pretend that your "cradle-robbing, creature of the night boyfriend" (What's My Line...Part 1?) is just some dreamy guy that you're gonna spend the rest of your life together.

Spike made all of that clear. Buffy had no expectations of Spike. He was a vampire. He was evil. And that's it. Spike went out of his way to change himself to be "good enough"... to be worth of Buffy, and I think she could sense that, and opened herself up a little more. In the beginning, it was all about the "naughty," but by Buffy saving Spike's life in "Lies My Parents Told Me" she started to accept more that Spike might be something worth more than just "naughty" time.

In "Chosen," I think Buffy was finally admitting to herself and to Spike that she loved him. I think Spike did believe her, but was letting her off the hook. Leaving her open to find another love and not mourn over him once he saves the world. He wanted to go out a hero, and Buffy to be proud of him, rather than sad that she lost a love.

But yes. Buffy did love Spike. She wasn't where she was with Angel, and probably never would be. There are different levels and different kinds, and Buffy felt something different for Spike. It was love... it evolved into love.

[Vampmogs]

I personally don't believe she did love Spike. I think she cared about him a lot but it was never love, or at least the romantic kind of love she shared with Angel and I think could have had with Riley.

The relationship between Buffy and Spike was always fairly unequal in the fact that he'd always care more about her than she ever could in return towards him. I think it was Kana who raised an interesting point on another forum, that Spike and Harmony share a moment in 'Harms Way' where Spike comes to the realisation, his relationship with Buffy was a lot like his relationship with Harmony. Only that this time Spike was in Harmony's place.

I tend to view Buffy's three romantic relationships, as each having their own purpose in the series. I always viewed Buffy/Angel as the big eternal love, the Buffy/Riley relationship as the normal everyday relationship, and Buffy/Spike as a representation of a relationship where as much as someone may want to love the other, they can't. I view each relationship as a representation of a different kind of relationship one can have.

I know there's a strong argument out there that Spuffy was a love that 'evolved' but I think there's a point where if it's that hard for it to evolve, then it can't be that strong. It's just how I feel about their relationship. I most certainly don't think Buffy loved Spike in season six, and pushing her and trying to convince her that she did, as Spike did, did nothing but probably deter her. And if she can't say it in season seven all year, if for some reason she doesn't want to admit it or is ashamed to admit it, then it can't mean that much to her.

Of course I have other reasons as well. I think the episode in 'End of Days' is a good example of Buffy just not being able to love him. She says she was with him there in 'Touched' but when he asks her what it means she asks "does it have to mean something?" That's just not the response I believe she would have gave if she wanted to be in a relationship with Spike or even love him. She then tries to back peddle with "maybe after-" but it's too late by that point, I think that's when Spike got the picture.

I just think her ability to express her feelings towards Angel wasn't necessarily a 'naivety' or something she 'outgrew' because she does it in later seasons as well. All year she doesn't want to get to close to Spike, and as soon as Angel returns in 'Chosen' she kisses him. And with Angel she was able to be open enough to talk about needing sometime being Buffy, whereas she never said that to Spike.

It's just my opinion but I don't think she was ever truly invested in Spike enough to love him. And I think that's fine, I don't think everyone relationship should be about love, I actually think it works best for Spuffy not to be and Bangel to be, they represent something different for me.

[palabravampiress]

I disagree with your opinion, but it was well-argued and I do respect it.

I CAN see each of those relationships as representing three different types of relationships that people can have. The part that confuses me is the part in which you believe that if you have to work for it, it's not love. I don't think love just happens. I don't thing it's either there or it isn't. I think you have to build it. I sort of feel the opposite. If it doesn't evolve, if it just sort of appears, then how do you know it's love?

I guess I feel that way because, while I have definitely been in love, (and still am) I have never been in the Bangel kind of love. The only kind of love that ever worked with me was the kind that was hard and complicated and took a long time to evolve from friendship into something more and then, finally, into love.

It's not the same for everybody. Some people fall in love at first sight. Some people fall in love after a couple of dates or after they sleep together or go through some big ordeal together. Me? It takes all of that, plus friendship and years. I think that's what Buffy's different relationships represent: not love, almost love, and non-love, but three different ways in which people fall in love. It can be all whirlwind and intense, like it was with Angel. It can be sweet and mundane, like it was with Riley. It can also be based on friendship and hard won, like it was with Spike. I think there are a lot more ways out there, too. Really, I think love is a terribly difficult thing to describe. It's sort of like porn; I "know it when I see it." lol. And I saw it with Buffy/Spike.

[Vampmogs]

I disagree with your opinion, but it was well-argued and I do respect it.

Thanks, you too :)

The part that confuses me is the part in which you believe that if you have to work for it, it's not love.

Sorry I don't think I articulated my point well enough, I can see why you'd have gotten that perception from my post. I don't have a problem with people working for their relationship. But I feel to the extent their love had to be 'worked on' in that relationship, to me it felt as if it shouldn't be that hard.

I also think there is a difference between working on a relationship, and working on loving someone. I think the latter should come on far easier than the former, a relationship does take work, but it should be much easier to love someone. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of having to 'work' on loving someone, if those feelings aren't there, they just aren't. At least IMO.

I guess I feel that way because, while I have definitely been in love, (and still am) I have never been in the Bangel kind of love. The only kind of love that ever worked with me was the kind that was hard and complicated and took a long time to evolve from friendship into something more and then, finally, into love.

I understand this and I'm actually in a relationship when I started off as friends with my girlfriend, so I can see what you mean. :)

But to me, I never felt as if the Buffy/Spike dynamic developed in that way. He asks her in 'Dead Things' "do you even like me?" in which she replies "sometimes." And even Spike acknowledges that the reason she was talking to him in the first place during season six was because, "a whisper in a dead man's ear doesn't make it real." I don't think they ever truly were friends.

It sounds like a really harsh thing to say, and I don't mean it to be, but IMO it felt as if Buffy was slowly having to be worn down and grated on until finally she could love Spike. And I don't feel it should take so much effort or be so complicated for her.

I'm still unsure of why exactly if she did love him, she'd feel so ashamed or try so hard not to. What about Spike did Buffy not want to love? Or if she did why was she so ashamed to express it? She's never had that problem before if she feels love. With Angel she was fine with expressing it, and expresses herself again in 'Chosen' with the kiss. And I don't think it has to do with being mature or an adult, she was an adult still in 'Chosen' with Angel, and Willow/Tara and Xander/Anya were all adults when they were able to express their love for one another.

It's sort of like porn; I "know it when I see it." lol. And I saw it with Buffy/Spike.

Heh. I saw porn with Buffy/Spike too! lol, only kidding! :lmao:

I think it's always going to be open for interpretation because Joss left it ambiguous. I know some fans like myself who look at their final scene together in 'Chosen' and interpret Sarah's delivery of "I love you" as if she didn't mean it, that's how she sold it to me. When Spike says "No you don't but thanks for saying it" we interpret that as the final statement on their relationship, he's finally come to accept it, he's grown and seen the truth with his soul. We see the look they share before their hands break a part as a look of understanding.

But there's others like yourself who interpret it very differently, I think I've seen on these boards people believing Spike was trying to let her off the hook, I personally don't agree with that because he kept up the opinion she didn't love him throughout Ats with, "I know I don't have a shot with her ok!" and not denying Angel's "that's why Buffy never really loved you because you weren't me" but it's fine we all have these different interpretations of the scene. I personally believe that was Joss' intention as well.

Though in season 8 if we find out Buffy did love him, then I'll have no problem changing my opinion :)

[palabravampiress]

^ Oooh. I do have a theory about the why Buffy had to be grated on and worn down thing. And here it is:

I see the season 7 episode Get it Done as a major turning point in the Spike/Buffy relationship.

Especially in seasons 6 and 7, Buffy and Spike function as foils. In season 6, Spike was to Buffy what Drusilla and Faith had been in previous seasons. They were her "shadows," metaphorical manifestations of the dark side of her psyche. Buffy spent much of her life as the slayer running from and/or denying that side of her even though, as we discover in the season 7's Get It Done, (the episode in which the Shadow Men reveal the origin of the slayer's power) it is Buffy's dark/demon side that gives her the added strength to fight the dark forces of evil. It's a fight fire with fire thing. I don't think it is coincidence that, in that same episode, Buffy rather harshly tells Spike that she needs that side of him -- the side that he's been denying ever since he got his soul back and the side that she spent all of season six rejecting and hating. In that episode, Buffy comes to terms with, accepts, and values her demon nature... and Spike's. They both come to terms with the fact that demon power does not have to be inherently bad or evil; when used for good, it can be good. Only by accepting that can Buffy begin to fully integrate her shadow (Spike) without fear or disgust.

I'll stick with the Jungian psychology for a little while longer and say that, for Spike, Buffy is his “anima,” or true inner self. In the male, the anima is expressed in the feminine, hence his having Buffy as his foil. This is different from the persona that Spike shows the world. Instead, the anima is the unconscious essence of an individual. Among the things that never changed in Spike, even in his days as a human, were his poet's sensibilities and his capacity for love. His true nature is that of a kind, loving, creative, soul-glowy goodness sort of individual. His true nature is good. So while he is a metaphorical manifestation of her dark side, she is a metaphorical manifestation of his light side. As the attempted rape incident proved, Spike's love for Buffy was unable to come to fruition as long as he was "stuck" in his dark side. He needed his light side. Getting his soul was a pivotal moment. It enabled him to reintegrate his anima. He still needed Get it Done, though, so that he could learn to incorporate both parts of his psyche, not just the light side. He also had to get free of his trigger so that he could realize that he had the power, not the demon or the First or anything evil, and that he could do good with that power.

Basically, before Buffy and Spike could accept one another, they had each to accept themselves. Because they couldn't do this until season 7, their love did not come to fruition until season 7. They each represented opposite and equal aspects of the other. According to my theory, Buffy couldn't love Spike until she could love herself, including the part of herself that Spike represented. Make sense?

[Joyce Summers]

According to my theory, Buffy couldn't love Spike until she could love herself, including the part of herself that Spike represented. Make sense?

Very eloquently and excellently put. I totally agree.

(This post is short because it WAS going to be a karma comment but you were the last person I karmafied so...karma post, haha)

[Vampmogs]

Buffy spent much of her life as the slayer running from and/or denying that side of her even though, as we discover in the season 7's Get It Done, (the episode in which the Shadow Men reveal the origin of the slayer's power) it is Buffy's dark/demon side that gives her the added strength to fight the dark forces of evil

But doesn't Buffy reject that side of her in that episode, choosing to turn down more power from the demon essence in favour for her humanity?

She learns where her power originated from, but I don't think she's ever accepted the idea she's inherently dark. In 'The Long Way Home' during her dream with Xander she says "I'm afraid of the dark" in which Xander replies, "Buffy you are the dark." She's yet to accept that side of her IMO, ultimately rejecting it rather than embracing it in 'Get It Done.' I'd go as far to say she still fears it as she says "that's what I meant" to Xander, before being sucked out of the window.

I still think the dark side of her power isn't fully explored yet. I think 'Get It Done' raises the question of wether or not it was the power that was inherently dark, or those using that power. We know there's so many shades of grey in the verse when it comes to demons, there's so much evidence of this in such characters as Lorne and Angel. We were never told if that demon's essence was actually 'dark' for all we know it was a good demon who was just as pure as Lorne, or just like Cordelia become. The darkness came from how it was forced into the first slayer against her will, by *men* who chained her to the floor.

At the end of the day power is just power, it only becomes dark when one uses that power or exploits ones power for evil purpose.

I like your theory but if Spike did still represent Buffy's dark side or she needed to embrace it, I just don't feel like 'Get It Done' is the best example of this when she rejects more power from this dark source, in favour for her humanity.

[SlayerGirl01]

I say yes in a way she did love him but a different kind of love to Angel.

those 2 will always be my fav couple!

[BuffyBloke]

I don't think she really did love spike as much as did Angel. I think for her if it was love, it wasn't love that she could see having like she did with Angel. I think over season 6 & 7 she came to have strong feelings for him but she definetly put up a front so no one else could see it.

That's what I think anyway. Sorry it's short, I'm stuck with the flue lol.

[Raye]

No, I don't believe she did.

I am a Bangel fan, pure and simple. And their love was the true one. They were soul mates in the purest sense of the word, that kind of first love that you never get over. They would've done anything for each other and would never have hurt each other the way Spuffy did...

And the argument that Angel left and Spike didn't doesn't hold up. Angel knew they couldn't be together without hurting each other, so he made the ultimate sacrifice and left her... Whereas Spike was too selfish to do that, he tried to take her down with him instead...

Buffy and Spike did have some incredible passion in a few eps, but they had darker feelings for each other. They were definitely not soul mates, they hurt each other constantly, they were mean to each other... I don't think this makes their feelings more honest or true or whatever just because they allowed each other to see all aspects of themselves, it just means to me that they didn't care if the other person saw them as they truly were because the deep feelings, as with Bangel, were not there. It was more about gratification with Spuffy.

I do think Spike loved Buffy, as bad as he was at it... But no, I don't believe Buffy loved Spike. And I believe this was cemented in when she tells him she loves him at the end, he says no, you don't, and she doesn't argue with that statement at all...

Anyway, just my two cents :)

[palabravampiress]

^ See last page re: what is true love?

I don't think this is about Angel. Love isn't an either/or thing. It makes no sense to argue that Buffy loved Angel truly madly deeply once upon a time ago and Spike was different, so she couldn't have loved him. Didn't primal slayer babe say Buffy was "full of love?" I'm not willing to doom the girl to teen angst love forever. I mean, Angel, Riley, and Spike are out of the picture in the comics. Does that mean that Buffy can never love again for as long as the Angel and Buffy comics are separated? No! I'll give her a shot. Maybe she'll fall for Satsu or Xander or Dracula for all I know. She says it was love. They shared some intense stuff, especially in season 7. I'll take her word for it and not doom her to her high school love forever.

I'm also not convinced that comparing the feelings that Buffy and Spike shared with those shared between Bangel is really the most unbiased reasoning. I don't wanna use Bangel as the basis for defining what love means to Buffy and compare all future lovers to that so that only Bangel can measure up. That's sort of stacking the deck. If you're going to ask whether or not Buffy loved Spike, I think the answers have to come from within the Spuffy relationship, not from listing all of the negative ways in which Spuffy differs from Bangel (without listing the positives). That's cheating. I think previous relationships are relevant only to the extent that they provide insight.

Speaking of insight, Angel can provide tons of insight into the Spike/Buffy relationship... especially if you look at the Angel/Drusilla/Spike triangle or even the Angel/Spike dynamic. But, again, if you close your eyes to Angelus (who is a part of Angel, albeit a suppressed one) and to anything dark in Bangel (like his tendency to treat Buffy like a kid) and then only look at anything dark when it comes to Spuffy, you're only seeing the part of the picture. Angel wasn't all good and Spike wasn't all bad. To say Spike had dark feelings for Buffy and Angel had light feelings, so one love is obviously superior not only stacks the deck from the beginning, but also fails to take into account a lot of the complexity that existed within both relationships.

I think they loved each other. But even if I didn't think Buffy and Spike loved each other, it wouldn't be because Buffy loved Angel. It would be because of what I saw in the Spuffy relationship.


P.S. Sorry if I come off as grumpy or combative. I'm all sick and sore throaty.

[LadyLavinia]

I think that in the end, it was verified that Buffy had loved both Spike and Angel. But that does not mean that she could not find someone else to fall in love with. There is always the future.

[Buffanator]

Yes, I do believe Buffy loved Spike.

Love comes in many forms & fashions - it's not a one-size-fits-all emotion. She loved Angel intensely & completely (first love) and she loved Riley for his goodness and sweetness, and she loved Spike with that "oooohhhh-a-bad-boy!" kind of love. She got boinky with Angel so seldom, but when she did, it was smooth, easy, gentle.... "making love." With Riley, she was just learning her own way and getting more into what love and commitment & sex was all about.

With Spike - it was very lustful. Did they EVER "make love"? I saw it as just passionate no-holds-barred down & dirty & exciting & yummy sex. Buffy was brought up to be a good girl, but she had that badness (re: evil) in her - the demon side - the fighter. That is a throw-down kind of love that she couldn't have with Angel OR Riley. Spike was just bad enough to give it to her the way she wanted to "let go" - but she couldn't, because she was too busy "being good." With Spike, she could let out her bad side, and that is acceptance, and acceptance is what love is all about.

[LadyLavinia]

Yes, I do believe Buffy loved Spike.

Love comes in many forms & fashions - it's not a one-size-fits-all emotion. She loved Angel intensely & completely (first love) and she loved Riley for his goodness and sweetness, and she loved Spike with that "oooohhhh-a-bad-boy!" kind of love. She got boinky with Angel so seldom, but when she did, it was smooth, easy, gentle.... "making love." With Riley, she was just learning her own way and getting more into what love and commitment & sex was all about.

With Spike - it was very lustful. Did they EVER "make love"? I saw it as just passionate no-holds-barred down & dirty & exciting & yummy sex. Buffy was brought up to be a good girl, but she had that badness (re: evil) in her - the demon side - the fighter. That is a throw-down kind of love that she couldn't have with Angel OR Riley. Spike was just bad enough to give it to her the way she wanted to "let go" - but she couldn't, because she was too busy "being good." With Spike, she could let out her bad side, and that is acceptance, and acceptance is what love is all about.



I don't think that Buffy's feelings for Spike were all about lust. They certainly weren't in Season 7.

[Buffanator]

I don't think that Buffy's feelings for Spike were all about lust. They certainly weren't in Season 7.

Sorry - that's not what I meant. Let me try to explain better. Buffy's ABILITY to 'let go & feel all the passion' - wrong or not - she was able to do that with Spike. It was somehow "ok to be bad" because he was bad. She didn't have to explain herself; her actions. Spike didn't care; he wanted Buffy just the way she was - he even enjoyed when they fought. Remember his speech "...when I say I love you it's ...got nothing to do with me. It's about you, how you fight. How you try..." (that's not a direct quote, btw!)

Spike helped Buffy accept the darkest part of herself - and she loved him for that. But she just couldn't admit it to herself until the end. The tears in her eyes weren't just because Spike was dying & no longer going to be around, but also because the fact that he WAS doing it! -being a champion. He'd CHANGED. Truly changed. And so did she.

[Pulse]

I think Buffy loved Spike. To be honest i cannot imagine Buffy growing old with anyone, but I think it would be more likely Spike than Angel

[Ysma]

I agree, I think Buffy did loved Spike. But with Angel, he's always in her heart.

[Raye]

If you don't think this is about who loved who more, then why are you defending the Spike/Buffy relationship so fiercely? LOL

I liked each of Buffy's relationships for very different reasons. And I have experienced each kind of love myself - that first true love like with Angel, that normal safe kind of love like with Riley, and that hot and heavy kind of thing like with Spike. In my experience, the one that has always stood out above the rest is the first true love one - the rest pale in comparison lol.

And Buffy never says it's love. Never. She says it at the end, to which Spike responds with "No you don't, but thanks for saying it." And she does not argue with him, proving that she does not.

And bringing Angelus into it is hardly fair. He is not Angel at all and Angel should not be punished for his crimes. Otherwise, Spike should be punished for his stuff from when he didn't have a soul... After all, how do you try to rape someone if you love them? I don't want to get into all that stuff, but seriously, Angelus and the rape thing with Spike should both be disregarded in this discussion as neither involved souls in the first place...

I simply don't believe Buffy loved Spike. I believe he loved her, even more than he loved Drusilla. But she never gave it back, she always held it back since Angel :)

[Kana]

The thing I find funny is that Angel, Riley and Spike all put words in Buffy's mouth.

Riley:

He said that Buffy didn't love him. She admitted only that she could have opened up to him more, but never did she say in hindsight that she never loved him.

Spike:

Spike said the infamous "No you don't" line but again, Buffy never actually agreed with this statement, it was his assumption.

Angel:

Angel assumed he was getting the brush off for Spike in Chosen when she told him she wanted him to work on the second front. She actually said he's not getting the brush off.


I think this is sometimes what 'shipper's do. They place words in the characters' mouths to make it fit their theory. I've never heard Buffy say that she loves Spike/Riley/Angel the most. I've never, subsequent to Chosen, heard her say she didn't love Spike, Angel or Riley respectively. Nor did she say her relationship with Angel simply highschool naivity, nor did she say her affair with Spike simply about distructive passion etc. Anything else as far as I'm concerned is more what I want to believe rather than what is fact...

[Raye]

"Anything else as far as I'm concerned is more what I want to believe rather than what is fact..." - Kana

Ok, I have to reluctantly agree with you on that point. I think that's what's so fantastic about the way Joss writes Buffy. He has always been very careful to leave it up to the viewer to believe what they want. This is why he leaves most storylines and relationships up to the viewers' own interpretation.

As a Bangel shipper, I watch that end scene with Buffy and Spike when she says she loves him and he says she doesn't. I see that as Buffy not disagreeing with him so she doesn't love him.
A Spike shipper sees it as she meant it and he wouldn't accept it.

So as for who Buffy ends up with, Joss wouldn't say either way the entire time and even in the last episode...
He wanted each and every fan to believe in the ending they wanted...
I wouldn't want it any other way... :)

[littlewilly]

I think she did 'love' him but i dont think she was 'in' love with him. Not like the way she loved Angel.
All those times in s6 when she was telling Spike that its never gonna happen, imo, she was just
in denial. She just couldnt admit she loved him, i mean, her friends would never approve.
She just thought she could never love someone like Spike, with his attitude and history, but thats when she
discovered that you dont pick and choose who you love, it just happens.

[Lillie]

I don't think she ever loved spike, she had an understanding for him though and they we're kind of always on the same page. Understood each other in a special way, but I would say no to love!
(I'm a huuuge Bangel fan though)

[angeldarla]

well i dont think buffy loved spike as she loved angel. its complicated, i think she just wanted to have fun and to forget about all the problems. its a new different world for her and I guess she just wanted to stay dead and in heaven. but she could'nt so she had to enjoy the has, and spike was part of the fun. if it was angel dying in the hellmouth i dont think she could bare the lost. so in my opinion she didnt love him

[palabravampiress]

I don't know why I feel such a need to defend this ship. I don't think Buffy and Spike are endgame. I'm a Buffy/Xander shipper for that. But I'm still a Spuffy in that I feel that what happened between them was important and meaningful and definitely qualifies as love.

I guess I just get annoyed by all of those die hard Bangel fans compare Spuffy to Bangel, list all of the ways in which it is not like Bangel (ignoring the positives of Spuffy, the negatives of Bangel, and the ways in which it is like Bangel), and so conclude that it wasn't love. That just seems like stacking the deck to me. I mean, it wasn't Bangel. But why does it have to be Bangel in order to be love? Why does she have to love Spike in the exact same way that she loved Angel for it to be love? That doesn't apply to real people, so why does it apply to Buffy? I think that's very limited and not fair to our heroine. I think there is room in her heart for Spike, just as there is room in her heart for Joyce, Giles, Dawn, Xander, Willow, Angel, Riley, etc. etc. I don't think it's at all fair to say she only gets her first love or that only her first love counts. Her first love was cursed; it wasn't all that and a bag of chips! I honestly don't think she's found "the one," yet. Maybe she never will. But that doesn't mean that the other loves in her life are somehow less than love. Buffy's got room in her heart for Angel and Spike and whoever else comes along and touches her heart in some lasting, important way.

I don't think Spuffy was love because of the ways in which it was like or unlike Bangel. In the end, I think Spuffy was love because Buffy said it was. I think Spuffy was love because of the way it ultimately strengthened both characters. I think it was love because of the way in which they both bared their souls and shared something meaningful that changed them both for the better. I don't think they're endgame. I don't think they're like Bangel. But that doesn't mean it wasn't love.

[Raye]

I agree with most of that - except for the part where Buffy says it was love. The only time she said she loved him, he replied with, "No, you don't. But thanks for saying it." She did not argue with this either, she kept her mouth shut. In my opinion, this means she didn't love him and was only saying it cause she knew he'd wanted to hear it for so long and he was about to die... so why not make him feel better in his last moments... Also disagree about the Buffy/Xander stuff... ew lol.

Just for the record, I don't only think it wasn't love because of Bangle either.
It wasn't love because she said she loved him yet didn't mean it...
It wasn't love because they treated each other so badly...
It wasn't love because ultimately they were just convenient for each other...
It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...
It wasn't love... :)

[percepto girl]

Oh my. I don't agree with what you've written, but I'm only going to concentrate on this:

It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...

That is just completely wrong reasoning, I'm sorry. It's like saying that Willow wasn't the same Willow after she became bad. Buffy has ALWAYS been Buffy; she changed, yes, but she was still herself. That much was even established in Dead Things (I believe) when she thought that she'd come back wrong and it turned out she didn't - she wasn't 'wrong', she was depressed. The period from her resurrection to the series finale is such an important part in Buffy's development as a person that I cannot accept it being dismissed as 'not being real'.

My two cents.

[Tranquillity]

I avoided this discussion for so long....

Just for the record, I don't only think it wasn't love because of Bangle either.
It wasn't love because she said she loved him yet didn't mean it...
It wasn't love because they treated each other so badly...
It wasn't love because ultimately they were just convenient for each other...
It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...
It wasn't love...

Does Spike rejecting the words make them not true? I don't think so, I think it says more about Spike's state of mind than Buffy's. I maintain that Buffy is not the kind of character who would say 'meaningless nothings' just to make someone feel better, even in the face of death. OK, so Buffy didn't argue with him - well, can you blame her; the hellmouth was caving in and she knows what it means to give your life for a greater purpose (as in The Gift), she respects that. I think her not arguing shows that she respected Spike and what he was doing not that she didn't love him. Earlier in the season in 'Him' the message came through loud and clear that 'no guy was worth dying for' so it is hardly surprising she doesn't stick around to be crushed to death beside the man she loves - god, wouldn't that be melodramatic (and it 'ain't my idea of love...)

Also, you can't judge a statement made at the end of season seven (as in "I Love You") just with season six evidence - that's not fair and of course it would be difficult to prove the case of love!

When did they treat each other badly? Season six, yes but in season seven all I saw was progressive development in their relationship that saw Buffy forgive, help, believe in and trust in Spike. Their was friendship, there was affection, there was mutual trust and respect. There was also the odd angry word but those were few and far between and all for the purpose of getting Spike to be a better man, pushing him along on his journey to championhood, when he thinks he's nothing but a piece of crap.

When did Buffy treat him like a 'conveinience'? Season six, yes, but in season seven she relied on him - Giles sees it, Buffy says it, and I don't think its out of conveinience at all.

It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...

Splainey???

For me, love is about actions. Like the old saying says - 'actions speak louder than words'. It is possible say words and then not back them up with actions or you can show love through actions. Maybe this works for me because i am not the sort who says 'i love you' a lot but i know for a fact that my kids and husband are in no doubt that i love them because of the relationship we have. It is not the words that matter - it is the actions. And when i look at Buffy and Spike in season seven I see love in action. I see forgiveness and concern and trust and belief and freindship and companionship and respect and....LOVE.

Buffy says the words, I believe her.

[white avenger]

Judging ONLY from the relationship between Buffy and Spike in Season 7, ruling out everything that had gone on in the past between them, judging both Spike AND Buffy as "changed" people (Spike with his soul, Buffy no longer completely devastated by being torn out of heaven by her friends), I would say that love most definitely developed between the two. Given another season or two, I honestly believe that the two would have been full time, out in the open, madly, sloppily, and completely unashamedly in love and to hell with what Giles, Xander, or anyone else thought about it. But I really don't think that they were all the way there at the end of Season 7.

[InsaneMystic]

Does Spike rejecting the words make them not true? I don't think so, I think it says more about Spike's state of mind than Buffy's. I maintain that Buffy is not the kind of character who would say 'meaningless nothings' just to make someone feel better, even in the face of death. OK, so Buffy didn't argue with him - well, can you blame her; the hellmouth was caving in and she knows what it means to give your life for a greater purpose (as in The Gift), she respects that. I think her not arguing shows that she respected Spike and what he was doing not that she didn't love him. Earlier in the season in 'Him' the message came through loud and clear that 'no guy was worth dying for' so it is hardly surprising she doesn't stick around to be crushed to death beside the man she loves - god, wouldn't that be melodramatic (and it 'ain't my idea of love...)
[...]
Buffy says the words, I believe her.
I absolutely agree on this. Even if she had had the time to start an argument (with the Hellmouth collapsing and Sunnydale going "holey"), it would have shown lack of repect for the sacrifice Spike was making. You don't start arguing with someone who's busy with doing the noblest deed of his whole existence - that would be awfully immature (while I could imagine an early season Buffy doing it, Leader!Buffy of S7 I could not).

I'm not even entirely sure that Spike meant the "no you don't" part. Firstly, it's just so "Spikey" making a bantery quip even in a moment like this; and second, he probably was intent on shooing Buffy away from the collapsing area as quickly as possible. Both of them knew that the ultimate danger zone is not the right time and place for a long, honest, emotional heart-to-heart - and this short dialogue is, IMO, their way of acknowledging it. It's more Spike's personality than anything else that made this scene different from the key scene of "Becoming II", I could otherwise have imagined it much the same.

[Raye]

Ok, I had to reply again lol.
I know you don't agree about the Buffy/Spike love stuff, but I am stating my opinion just as you are stating yours.
You say that apparently Buffy didn't argue because the hellmouth was collapsing and so on, but that is simply your hope for what was happening - based on no facts whatsoever, and neither are mine. Mine is opinion and I have stressed on that from the beginning. Now I am well aware this site is overtaken by Spuffy lovers lol, but I aint changing my opinions because others are just as passionate as I am about our couples lol.

I believe Buffy would say she loved him even if she didn't quite know in herself whether it was true or not. And I do believe Spike meant it when he said she didn't - the look on his face was, in my opinion, quite obvious.
She had time to argue with him, to say yes, I do love you! But she didn't, she just held his hand and then ran out. And I did not say for one moment she should've stayed there and died with him!

And yes, season 7 didn't have anywhere near as much bad stuff between them. Their relationship did grow, but I still don't believe it could ever be love.
Mainly because of their history.

And how can you ask me to explain what I meant about Buffy changing after she died? Everyone knows she did. She became darker, not quite the perfect 'good' champion she always was before. She darkened, which is what opened her up to the Spike relationship in the first place.

Yes, love is about actions. I don't say it a lot either, to anyone! And yes, Spike showed his love extraordinarily, but once again in my opinion, Buffy didn't.

Buffy says the words, Spike disagrees, Buffy doesn't argue, I believe Spike :)

[Buffanator]

She had time to argue with him, to say yes, I do love you! But she didn't, she just held his hand and then ran out.


I respect your opinion, because you're right - we all are stating *our opinions*... but IMHO you have completely gone "shirty" if you truly believe she had TIME to stand there & argue with him about her confession of love.

My arguement here has nothing to do with the fact that I am a Spuffy shipper (I was also a Bangel shipper... LOL... I'm both!-how weird is that?) - it has to do with the timing of the event that was actually taking place at that particular moment. FACT: Spike had risen above his evil nature & SOUGHT OUT his soul. He WANTED IT, even when he WAS evil. FACT: Angel - when he was Angelus - made it perfectly clear that he hated his "filthy soul" & fought to keep the "Angel" part of him deeply buried. Loving Buffy actually CHANGED Spike. It made him WANT to be a better man - and what is love if not that? Love changes you.

When Spike said "No you don't, but thanks for sayin' it" my understanding was that he WAS hurrying Buffy out of there - to save HER as well as the world. After all, there was that *ONE MOMENT* when they looked at each other & she had those tears in her eyes, & for just ONE MOMENT I think he did think about running out with her... but he couldn't. He had a job to do, and he WAS the champion for that brief moment in time. Spike FINALLY respected HIMSELF & trusted himself to do what was right; what needed to be done.

Another point: when Giles said "What did this?" and Buffy replied "Spike" - the look on her face was one of pride. She felt pride in Spike for being the champion she knew he could be. Remember when Buffy told Giles "he can be a good man; I know it" ? Well, he was. In the end; he was.

Plus that blonde chick that had heart failure & died... she told Spike "Someday, she'll tell you." It all fits rather nicely when you look at it from several episodes worth of dialogue. :D

[The Kinslayer]

Plus that blonde chick that had heart failure & died... she told Spike "Someday, she'll tell you." It all fits rather nicely when you look at it from several episodes worth of dialogue. :D
She did, and of course it´s the way it was supposed to be played out. But saying it doesn´t mean she actually means it. That´s why we can have this discussion. It´s not like it´s unheard of that guys (mostly) tell girls they love her so they can have what they want.

In my opinion it´s like this:
Does Buffy love Spike? Yes
Is it the same way as with puppy love Angel? Of course not

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

hmm i actually kind of agree with "She could have protested what he said" thing. it doesnt take more than acouple of seconds to do so, if we are being so literal with time. But does it mean she knows he was right, or does it mean that she is secure enough that she loved him that she didn't feel the need to defend her case?

I don't know how i feel about the whole thing. I'm not sure it was the romantic love she had with Angel, i do think she loved him as a person, which is amazing for Spike seeing that for a long time she just saw him as a "thing". Now she was acknowledging he was a PERSON, and a good one at that, someone who was deserving of love.

[Tranquillity]

It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...

And how can you ask me to explain what I meant about Buffy changing after she died? Everyone knows she did. She became darker, not quite the perfect 'good' champion she always was before. She darkened, which is what opened her up to the Spike relationship in the first place.

I just found the first statement a bit weird - It says she's not the 'real' buffy so therefore it wasn't love. I understand that she changed after she came back from the dead but I don't understand how this precludes her from loving ever again.

And I do believe Spike meant it when he said she didn't - the look on his face was, in my opinion, quite obvious.

I agree with you, i don't think Spike believed it - but the fact that he doesn't believe it doesn't make Buffy's words untrue.

[Blondie Bear]

I always read the "No, you don't, but thanks for saying it" like I read Han Solo's "I know" after Leah told him she loved him. It was entirely in character, kept the moment from being too sloppily cheesy (like Cheez Wiz), and to truly understand his intentions, you have to look at his face.

[Raye]

Yes, she had plenty of time to say the words, "Yes, I do..." so I don't see why you would say I'm being 'shirty'... unless you're just trying to be mean now...

You say other people ignore the bad angel stuff and only focus on the good, yet what are doing with the spuffy stuff?! The exact same thing... Sounds like a contradiction to me...

Anyway, I'm done with this convo. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. :)

[ashleey]

I think somewhere along the season Buffy actually did love Spike.

[Buffanator]

Yes, she had plenty of time to say the words, "Yes, I do..." so I don't see why you would say I'm being 'shirty'... unless you're just trying to be mean now...

You say other people ignore the bad angel stuff and only focus on the good, yet what are doing with the spuffy stuff?! The exact same thing... Sounds like a contradiction to me...

Anyway, I'm done with this convo. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. :)

you think I'm being *mean* because I called you "shirty"? :lmao: Sorry, it was a JOKE, you know, because Spike said that to Buffy & Buffy replied "What is *shirty* anyway, that's not even a word!" Heh.

Oh, & I don't ignore any of the bad stuff about Spike. He was bad/evil/wrong on many occasions. But that's part of what I like about him. :hehe:

[VisionGuy]

Buffy said she loved him, so she loved him. *shrugs*

[Buffanator]

I don't know how i feel about the whole thing. I'm not sure it was the romantic love she had with Angel, i do think she loved him as a person, which is amazing for Spike seeing that for a long time she just saw him as a "thing". Now she was acknowledging he was a PERSON, and a good one at that, someone who was deserving of love.

That's been my point all along. Buffy DID love Spike, but very differently than she loved Angel - same with Riley... DID love him, just differently. Not all love has to be romantic & roses & butterflies & chocolate truffles. Some love is raw, wild, and not always good for us.

I once heard that romantic love is a fire that keeps you warm, whereas wild love is a fire that consumes you. I think Buffy's love for Angel WAS romantic, & her love for Spike was consuming. She even said as much herself, to Spike, nonetheless, as in *consumes* ... "until there's nothing left."

[palabravampiress]

Note: "shirty" is one of those British English words that Spike sometimes throws in just to remind you that he's British. lol. Basically, it means "grumpy." I write a couple of Brits in another RPG, and I often use this (http://www.effingpot.com/index.shtml)site for the purpose of getting my slang right. The other day, I happened upon the word "shirty" and thought: "Huh. So Spike did use an actual word."

From the "Slang" (http://www.effingpot.com/slang.shtml)section of the site:

Shirty - "Don't get shirty with me young man" was what my Dad used to tell me when I was little. He was referring to my response to his telling off for doing some terrible little boy thing. Like tying my brother to the back of Mum's car or putting my shoes in the toilet. It meant I was getting bad tempered.



That said, I just wanna add... I disagree with the notions that: A.) The truth of Buffy's final statement to Spike is dependent upon his acceptance or rejection of that statement and B.) Buffy wasn't Buffy after her resurrection, and so the effect that that traumatic experience had on her interpersonal relationships is somehow invalidated.

First of all, love isn't dependent upon the other person's response. It is possible to love unrequited. If Buffy says she loves Spike and then Spike rejects that love, it doesn't render Buffy's words a lie. SHE probably still loves Spike. All Spike's reaction does is shed light onto his feelings on the matter. Whatever his feelings might be, they certainly don't control hers. Buffy's feelings are her own, not Spike's to validate or invalidate.

Secondly, to apply the logic that Buffy came back somehow altered, and so the love that she claimed she felt for Spike was not really love means that you have to do a couple of kinda weird things: A.) You have to ignore the episode in which Tara confirms that Buffy did not come back wrong and B.) you have to invalidate the rest of her interpersonal relationships, too. So Buffy's relationship with Dawn isn't real. Her rift with Giles isn't real. Her friendship with Xander isn't real. Her distance from Willow/trust in Tara isn't real. Her cookies talk with Angel isn't real. I mean, if you believe that the main character's interpersonal relationships are unreal and carry no weight or meaning due to the circumstances of her resurrection, doesn't that sort of take away a lot of the impetus for emotional investment? If I thought nothing Buffy did after she came back mattered, then I would probably have found seasons 6 and 7 to be pretty darn boring. For me to care about the last two seasons, then I need to think that Buffy's growth as a person matters just as much as it ever did, and that includes all of her relationships -- even Spike.

[Keanoite]

Really there should be 5 different variations of this thread...it has far too much scope.


Did Buffy love Spike?

To quote a certain Slayer but Gee could ya vague that up for me?


Like many other people have said already there are different types of love, it isn't necessarily a romantic relationship that we are discussing. This I think is true of Buffy and Spike.

I agree with Palabra, we can't just dicount what Buffy says becuase we don't like it. I think Buffy loved him, I don't think it was romantic, not just because I'm a Bangel but because they had a totally different vibe in those last few eps. I think Spike was Buffy's best friend, much like Cordy was Angel's.

[white avenger]

Really there should be 5 different variations of this thread...it has far too much scope.


Did Buffy love Spike?

I think Spike was Buffy's best friend, much like Cordy was Angel's.


I think Spike was Buffy's comrade in arms, something that goes far beyond mere friendship. Was she in love with him? Everyone has their own opinion on that matter, but I don't think that anyone can doubt that she trusted him with her life, and the life and welfare of her family and friends, even after the events of "Seeing Red." She believed in him completely, even after she thought that he had gone back to killing humans. And he was the one who did not betray her when things started going bad.

It's a lot like the relationship Mal and Zoe have in "Firefly." They've shed blood together. That makes them closer than friends, closer than family, and closer than lovers. He was the one she trusted to cover her back when it really mattered.

[xgirlanachronism245x]

Buffy said she loved him, so she loved him. *shrugs*

And I do not believe that I could have said it better. =]
Woot woot.

[JCC]

If I say I am a turtle, am I a turtle? Regardless of how sincere I seem to be when I say it, it's quite apparent that I am not a turtle.

Buffy may have said that she loved Spike merely to sate him before he died.

Edit:

(Sorry, I can't figure out how to edit posts.)

In response to white avenger, I don't think that Buffy was lying completely, I think that she was exaggerating her feelings for Spike, but there were definite feelings there. She just didn't love Spike.

[Lauryn Summers]

I've never heard Buffy say that she loves Spike/Riley/Angel the most.

In Season 7, Episode 5 "Selfless", Buffy and Xander are arguing about killing Anya and Buffy says, "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with—I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life, and I put a sword through his heart because I had to."

I take that as a declaration of her love to Angel and how it really is deep enough to "trump" the others (I was trying to put that more delicatly, but I really had no idea how to say it). Granted, one could argue that Spike isn't in "this life"...but from that quote, I always thought it meant that Buffy had one love and that was Angel.

I don't think Buffy ever *really* loved Spike, or fell in love with him. I think she loved him for changing and how he treated her (for the most part, naturally) but I don't think she was IN love with him ever.

[NympHadorA]

Yes, in the end; she loved him at last... She refused the possibility of loving Spike, but in the last season, she realised that she loved him... She allways protected him and wanted to be with him in the last season, because she saw that he has a real soul...:)

[bufsum]

Buffy and Spike’s relationship has many levels, or skins… like an onion… thank you Shrek. Let’s put this question into perspective with a roll down memory lane, in order to answer the question on the recent past, it seems relevant we look into the not-so-recent:

Season 2: Mortal enemies, Spike and Drusilla enter as the season’s big bad, aided later by Angelus.

Season 3: (heck if Lover’s Walk can earn Spike a picture on the Season 3 DVD set, it is surely going to be included, here) Spike comes back to Sunnydale, after being kicked out by Drusilla… supposedly because Drusilla thinks Spike is in love with Buffy at this point, but Spike sure doesn’t act like it… (sorry for the continuity rant)… he comes back to reek havoc, and does so by kidnapping Willow and Xander, but gives up the jig so that Buffy can save her friends in the nick… and, the love’s bitch speech provides perspective for Bangel, and their relationship.

Season 4: Spike is back as a witless foil, causing more havoc… no love for Buffy, out to kill her… halfheartedly

Season 5: Spike finds an obsession in Buffy; he still wants to kill her… but thinks she would be a good “taste” as Spike says in FFL. At this point Buffy has no reason to see Spike as anything but a demon that she is too good for. Then Buffy dies. This seems to solidify the fact that Spike will be apart of the group, he finds a place with the Scoobies.

Season 6: Buffy comes back from the grave. Although she is not “changed” as in the fact that she is a demon, or less human than she was when she sacrificed herself. Coming back from the dead can’t not change you. She comes back lost, unable to deal… and finds solace in Spike. She screws him stupid, in order to feel like she is apart of this world. And Spike… likes it, and hates it. After getting what he wanted he still does not have her… not in the idealistic version he would like to. Certainly not like Angel had Buffy. This was new, it was adult, and it was a symbiotic relationship of user and user. Beat. Spike gets himself a soul, to atone.

Season 7: Buffy and Spike begin to heal their wounds (respectively). They have been through so much together… they have fought to the death, known the deepest parts of one another (that sounded less sexy in my head), and confided in one another things they would have told no one else. They have moved on to a different sort of relationship, one filled with trust and love. There’s the word… the word this thread was created for. Love. Of course Buffy and Spike saw things in one another that allowed them to find respect in a post destructive relationship way. There were awkward moments, shifting in the doorway, misspoken words… naturally. They are champions together, and Buffy relies on Spike. Buffy gives Spike the amulet, she dooms him to die. And she loves him. This time she killed the man who is in her heart she did not kiss and kill. She grabbed his hand, told him she loved him… and left to live another day. In the commentary for Chosen Joss says that he told (paraphrasing here): Sarah to tell Spike she loved her, and mean it, and have James deliver his line and mean that he loves her, too.


Just for the record, I don't only think it wasn't love because of Bangle either.
It wasn't love because she said she loved him yet didn't mean it...
It wasn't love because they treated each other so badly...
It wasn't love because ultimately they were just convenient for each other...
It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...
It wasn't love... :)

I think we need to have a dividing line between Spike pre-soul, and post-soul. There is a continent between Angel and Angelus, and Spike’s character deserves the same respect. I know that Joss wants Spike to be light grey with a soul, and dark grey without, but let’s not forget that without a soul Spike is a bloodthirsty beast, no matter how suave and “in love with” Drusilla/Harmony/Buffy he claims to be.

So, while I agree with the fact that Spike and Buffy cannot be in love when he is soulless, he chooses the journey (in large part for Buffy).

In Season 7, Episode 5 "Selfless", Buffy and Xander are arguing about killing Anya and Buffy says, "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with—I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life, and I put a sword through his heart because I had to."

I take that as a declaration of her love to Angel and how it really is deep enough to "trump" the others (I was trying to put that more delicatly, but I really had no idea how to say it). Granted, one could argue that Spike isn't in "this life"...but from that quote, I always thought it meant that Buffy had one love and that was Angel.

I don't think Buffy ever *really* loved Spike, or fell in love with him. I think she loved him for changing and how he treated her (for the most part, naturally) but I don't think she was IN love with him ever.

Buffy does love Angel. I believe a big part of her will love him passionately until the day she dies. However, Spike and Buffy do grow into love, at that point in the season… five episodes in… Buffy relates to Xander on the fact that she may have to kill Anya by telling him that she killed the thing that she loved most in the world. That does not mean that Buffy cannot, did not, and does not love Spike, as well.

But… that doesn’t mean I don’t think Bangel are going to have beautiful little hell spawns of there own running around, someday.

[palabravampiress]

I just rewatched Spike's sacrifice in Chosen. Honestly, it got me a little choked up. I gotta say... take your shippiness out of it for a second, and what do you think? Whether you like Bangel or Spuffy or Briley or even Batsu doesn't matter. In that moment, Spike was radiant and selfless and literally burning to do the right thing and save the world. He was effulgent, just like he always wanted to be/knew he could be. He was meeting his destiny as a champion. In that moment... he was beautiful. He was transcendent. Heck, in that moment, even I loved him, and I know he's not real.

Buffy is the only one (aside from Dru with her visions) who ever thought he had it in him. She was the only one who believed in him. She's the only one who saw that spark. She knew, even when the rest of the scoobies and many of the fans doubted, and she never gave up on him. When he dies closing the Hellmouth, those feelings are vindicated. Her faith in him is proven right. That has got to be a powerful motivator.

I can't watch that scene without believing Buffy because, honestly, it's just so darn poetic and moving and beautiful that I don't know how anyone could stand in front of him in that moment and, knowing what he once was, not love him for what he became. Had Angel been there, I think even Angel would have loved him (and not in their normal love/hate sibling rivalry way, either; in a great, big, awe-inspiring, swelling music, single tear sliding down the cheek kind of way). Spike had a beautiful, heroic, poetic soul and, in that moment, it was on display in all of its wonderful glory. Having seen that and felt that (when they held hands) and lived and saved the world because of it, I think Buffy would have had to have been crazy not to have loved him. Maybe it was too little and too late, but it was definitely love.

For all of his faults (and they are many), Spike was, in the end, worthy to be loved. He was always the vampire with the capacity to love. It is only fitting that, in the end, his sacrifice makes him more than a dirty, flawed thing. His sacrifice is the sort of thing about which people tell stories. Those stories become legend. Those legends become myth, inspiring religious fervor and amazement in millions. It's better than poetry; it's the sort of thing about which people write poetry in the hope of barely scratching the surface of its magnitude and meaning. Maybe I'm just getting all soppy about it, but man... it's just wonderful. I don't know how anyone, least of all Buffy, can watch that scene and not love Spike.

I feel kinda soppy like that about all of the characters who fought (and especially those who died) in Chosen, but the thing with Spike's soul... man, that was amazing.

[Buffanator]

I just rewatched Spike's sacrifice in Chosen. Honestly, it got me a little choked up. I gotta say... take your shippiness out of it for a second, and what do you think? Whether you like Bangel or Spuffy or Briley or even Batsu doesn't matter. In that moment, Spike was radiant and selfless and literally burning to do the right thing and save the world. He was effulgent, just like he always wanted to be/knew he could be. He was meeting his destiny as a champion. In that moment... he was beautiful. He was transcendent. Heck, in that moment, even I loved him, and I know he's not real.

Buffy is the only one (aside from Dru with her visions) who ever thought he had it in him. She was the only one who believed in him. She's the only one who saw that spark. She knew, even when the rest of the scoobies and many of the fans doubted, and she never gave up on him. When he dies closing the Hellmouth, those feelings are vindicated. Her faith in him is proven right. That has got to be a powerful motivator.

I can't watch that scene without believing Buffy because, honestly, it's just so darn poetic and moving and beautiful that I don't know how anyone could stand in front of him in that moment and, knowing what he once was, not love him for what he became. Had Angel been there, I think even Angel would have loved him (and not in their normal love/hate sibling rivalry way, either; in a great, big, awe-inspiring, swelling music, single tear sliding down the cheek kind of way). Spike had a beautiful, heroic, poetic soul and, in that moment, it was on display in all of its wonderful glory. Having seen that and felt that (when they held hands) and lived and saved the world because of it, I think Buffy would have had to have been crazy not to have loved him. Maybe it was too little and too late, but it was definitely love.

For all of his faults (and they are many), Spike was, in the end, worthy to be loved. He was always the vampire with the capacity to love. It is only fitting that, in the end, his sacrifice makes him more than a dirty, flawed thing. His sacrifice is the sort of thing about which people tell stories. Those stories become legend. Those legends become myth, inspiring religious fervor and amazement in millions. It's better than poetry; it's the sort of thing about which people write poetry in the hope of barely scratching the surface of its magnitude and meaning. Maybe I'm just getting all soppy about it, but man... it's just wonderful. I don't know how anyone, least of all Buffy, can watch that scene and not love Spike.

I feel kinda soppy like that about all of the characters who fought (and especially those who died) in Chosen, but the thing with Spike's soul... man, that was amazing.


Sometimes I just really LOVE you, & for a minute I think I might like to stalk you, but then I think, "Nah, she probably wouldn't appreciate that." :D

[KhaoticLove]

I think Buffy loved him more than love but not fully in love with him. I believe if she might have accepted him fully into her life and let everyone know they were together, they're love would grow to her being in love with him.

[LifeIsJustThis]

The one thing that really annoys me is the infamous "Why does everything think I'm still in love with Spike" line. Many Spuffy fans use this as a life line when arguing about Buffy's feelings about Spike and to be honest, it makes me feel sorry for them.

The first time she admits she loves Spike and it's played out almost as a joke, without sentiment. Believe you me, I'm coming at this from a Spuffy perspective. She could hardly reconcile herself with having loving feelings for Spike and then it's suddenly accepted and is a offhand comment, virtually without sentiment? Bangelists would get more satisfaction from her line in Selfless about Buffy loving Angel more than she'll ever love anything in the world. If this line is legitimate, I feel sorry for hardcore shippers. Spuffy deserves more than that.
Amen. I want to believe she loved Spike. I really do. Yet, I'm just not sure yet. I'm still thinking about it.

[Tranquillity]

Lifeisjustthis wrote:
Amen. I want to believe she loved Spike. I really do. Yet, I'm just not sure yet. I'm still thinking about it.

here's a little something i made to help you make up your mind:)
YouTube - Buffy Spike: Season Seven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NVC6pYksg)

[Buffanator]

Lifeisjustthis wrote:


here's a little something i made to help you make up your mind:)
YouTube - Buffy Spike: Season Seven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NVC6pYksg)

OMG that was beautiful, Tranquillity! just beautiful! sooo beautiful.... *sniff*....

[VisionGuy]

Buffy loved Spike!!!

*leaves thread and slams door*

[Blondie Bear]

*opens door and yells into thread*

So there!

*slams door again*

[Lyri]

Did Buffy love Spike?

YES!

Next question please.

[Entiel]

AWMAGAD!!!I LOVED THAT VID!!!

[DarkAvenger]

yeah, me too. Really, that vid was fantastic :)
btw.. she totally loved him. :D

[Urgent Power]

Amazing! It was sooo beautiful!

[UnKle]

here's a little something i made to help you make up your mind:)
(URL to vid I can't re-post til I prove I'm not a spam bot)YouTube - Buffy Spike: Season Seven(/URL)
...something... in my eye...

Really good vid. :)

Buffy loved Spike. Yep. I think she wanted to be close to him, and I think he understood her on levels nobody else could come close to. And I think she wanted to trust him again, at the end. And by then, well... when your squeeze is about to burst into flames, things are kinda rushed.

But in love? I'm not so sure Buffy thinks she can be in love with anybody, or that she's worth loving. Her uttering the ILY's might not have been right for that moment. And really, she doesn't just say it to anybody. But she knew this was it for him, and gosh, how do you say everything you need to say in 5 seconds or less? So, ILY meant the most. She said it. She meant it. But not the way he wanted it.

[fly on the wall]

Simply put, no, I don't think she did.

I didn't think as much before, but then I remembered something in S4 (I believe it was....sorry, I can't remember which episode). Tara and Willow were discussing The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Tara said something along the lines of (not a direct quote, but I'll do my best): "It couldn't have a happy ending, because everything Quasimodo did was selfishly motivated. He had no sense of right, no moral compass, everything he did was out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back. Plus, you can tell the story's not going to have a happy ending when the main character is all bumpy."

Now, who does that sound like? Spike. He did good things to impress Buffy, to prove to her he was worthy of her love (fighting demons, taking care of Dawn, etc etc). AND we all know he has a bumpy face. :) Maybe I'm looking too much into it, but that (as well as other evidence) tells me Buffy never truly loved Spike, and I don't think she would ever be able to truly love him.

[Urgent Power]

Simply put, no, I don't think she did.

I didn't think as much before, but then I remembered something in S4 (I believe it was....sorry, I can't remember which episode). Tara and Willow were discussing The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Tara said something along the lines of (not a direct quote, but I'll do my best): "It couldn't have a happy ending, because everything Quasimodo did was selfishly motivated. He had no sense of right, no moral compass, everything he did was out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back. Plus, you can tell the story's not going to have a happy ending when the main character is all bumpy."

Now, who does that sound like? Spike. He did good things to impress Buffy, to prove to her he was worthy of her love (fighting demons, taking care of Dawn, etc etc). AND we all know he has a bumpy face. :) Maybe I'm looking too much into it, but that (as well as other evidence) tells me Buffy never truly loved Spike, and I don't think she would ever be able to truly love him.

Well, first, it was season 5's episode "Crush".

This scene was indeed about Spike and his love for Buffy. And I think it was true, except it was only true for this season. Later on things changed. For example, Spike looked out for Dawn not only because he wanted to impress Buffy. He truly did care for Dawn, and he did it, and he helped the scoobies even after Buffy died. So I think that proves that Spike has really changed after this episode we're talking about.

[fly on the wall]

Well, first, it was season 5's episode "Crush".

This scene was indeed about Spike and his love for Buffy. And I think it was true, except it was only true for this season. Later on things changed. For example, Spike looked out for Dawn not only because he wanted to impress Buffy. He truly did care for Dawn, and he did it, and he helped the scoobies even after Buffy died. So I think that proves that Spike has really changed after this episode we're talking about.

Yes, I agree that Spike changed, but I don't think the "a woman who would never be able to love him back" changed. ('Never' is a pretty loaded word.) Or the happy ending for the bumpy guy.
I think Buffy cared about him, and I think she wanted to give him something during his last moments alive, but I don't think she was ever truly in love with him.

[Ripper 08]

this is something i've never been sure of.i wasn;t a fan of buffy and spike together when it first happened but as there relationship grew it was about passion, fire and to be quiet frank sex.did buffy love spike i'm not sure she did to beggin with, yes there would be feelings there but i dont think we ever really new with them.personally i think we got are answer in the season 7 finale when spike was about to go up with the sun light and that moment they shared was magical and so sad! buffy said she loved spike and he replied no you don't but thanks for sayin it (not sure on exact words). to me i always took this as buffy finally realising she did truely love him and spike said what he said to make it easier on the both of them(to get buffy to leave),despite loving her too.

i think originally spike just wanted to get with buffy as he knew it would give him ammo to annoy angel with,thing is it turne into an obsession and then love

does any one agree or disagree?

[Urgent Power]

Yes, I agree that Spike changed, but I don't think the "a woman who would never be able to love him back" changed. ('Never' is a pretty loaded word.) Or the happy ending for the bumpy guy.
I think Buffy cared about him, and I think she wanted to give him something during his last moments alive, but I don't think she was ever truly in love with him.

I look at season 5 Buffy and Spike, and season 7-end Buffy and Spike. I think you can clearly see how much Buffy's feelings for Spike have changed during the last season.

[Ripper 08]

i truely beleive when she saw what he was about to do/happen in the sence of the sun comin i on him,that her true feelings emerged and she realised the love for him, and as i said in turn he said no you don't but thanks for saying it,to make it easier on them both lol

[Urgent Power]

I like that theory :lmao:

[UnKle]

Well, in S6, their thing was all about stuff that doesn't have anything to do with love, and everything to do with selfishness, abuse, sex, anger, frustration, self-loathing, and so on. Yunno... a relationship. Well... the relationship you get when you've got a vampire without a soul screwing a dead slayer who hates herself. But I digress.

S7 made an enormous change in their relationship, for obvious reasons. Learning to trust him again... well, it was a different kind of trust than their relationship was founded on just a year prior. Big, big changes in how they felt about each other, especially for Buffy by the end.

[tinomars]

I think Buffy loved Spike, not in the way she loved Angel. But she loved him very much!

[LifeIsJustThis]

In "Chosen" Buffy finally tells Spike that she loves him, but he replies with "No, you don't, but thanks for saying it" (or something to that affect). Do you think that she really loved him? I think she really did for a long time, but was too afraid to let anyone (especially herself) know it. What do you guys think?
Marti Noxon (in the "Chosen" commentary) did say that Buffy loved Spike. Watch it. It's really interesting.

[caritas08]

I think Buffy loved Spike, not in the way she loved Angel. But she loved him very much!

I completely agree. Buffy loved Spike in a more adult, mature kind of way (not to lesson the depth of her love for Angel. I love both Angel and Spike).

[sk73]

In the last few episodes in season 7 I think you can notice that maybe Buffy has some kind of feelings for the new Spike.
Besides that I can't see it at all.

But I am gonna trust Spike on this.
- No, you don't. But thanks for saying it.
He has always shown that he knows about this stuff (more than I ever will)

I can admit that Ripper 08 has a point a few posts up though... :)

/SK

[LifeIsJustThis]

Lifeisjustthis wrote:


here's a little something i made to help you make up your mind:)
YouTube - Buffy Spike: Season Seven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NVC6pYksg)

Nice vid.
I did watch the Chosen commentary and I'm starting to change my mind after what Marti Noxon said....

Edit:

This is such a difficult subject for me. I mean, actions do speak louder then words often - and buffy did do many things for Spike - she protected him and confided in him, and later on, she trusted him. I feel maybe she did love him yet could not say it until she faced the thought of losing him. Her love for Angel was right off yet her love for Spike took time. I do have more to comment on this but I think I have t forget about it first. I was convinced for a long time that she did not love Spike. Now that i'm reconsitering my stance....I have to think for a while....

[raine4rose]

i have thought it long time ago and as I watched it over again something came up on my mind....
Buffy's love for Angel is a First Love which means forever "First love never dies" that what they say....
But for Spike is different She loves Spike for many reason and yet she only revealed it in the last epi of S7. Spike died as a Hero for saving the world and that Buffy would never forget it.
I had watched Angel before and if I recall it Spike dont like Buffy to know that he is alive again coz he wants Buffy to know that he's a Hero for saving the world tell me if i was wrong on it....
Forgot to say there's a teenager who told Buffy that his shirt was gonna stain and that girl had a pyschic power I guess when Spike help her that girl told Spike "Someday, she will tell you" I guess what she will tell is "I love You" and Buffy told Spike at the last moment

Sry for the long post

[LorneyTunes]

Well I think that Buffy did love Spike in the sense that hes a good man and a warrior not in a I love you way but more of a I respect and honour you for all the great things you have done , a warrior love almost is there such a thing???? (hehe)

[palabravampiress]

^ What's the difference?

Not being snarky. I genuinely want to know. A big part of this debate sort of focuses on defining love and separating it into kinds.

To me, romantic love is a combination of friend love, family love, and lust. So when I see Buffy invite Spike into the family unit even when he doesn't deserve it, treat him as a confidante when her other friends have kicked her out, and wake up next to him in her lingerie the night before the big battle, then I kind of get the impression that she is declaring the romantic kind of love there in the end. To someone who has a different definition of love, however, something in mine might seem lacking. so that's why I want to know what "warrior love" would entail (obviously fighting of some sort) and how it would differ from "I love you" love.

[MozYa]

Well I think that Buffy did love Spike in the sense that hes a good man and a warrior not in a I love you way but more of a I respect and honour you for all the great things you have done , a warrior love almost is there such a thing???? (hehe)

Sounds an awful lot like kyrumption to me :)

[DrusillaRox]

I really think w=that whether what they said is true or not is irelevent, what really matters is the way they saud it, I mean, they could've said goodbye(which in a way, they did) and it wouldve been just as meaningful and this probably wont make any sense when post is coz my thoughts are all jumble-ey but I guess what I'm trying to say is it had the same degree of sadness as Angel, season 1's "I will remember you" (cannot begin to express how much i HATE that episode)

[white avenger]

In the commentary for the "final night/fade to black" basement scene, Joss said that he wanted to leave it as ambiguous as possible as to just what actually happened between Spike and Buffy, and I believe that he continued that same tone through the final "I love you/No you don't..." scene. As has been pointed out, Spike could have taken the Han Solo tone and said simply, "I know," but Spike isn't Han Solo, and that answer simply isn't true to his character, any more than it would have been if he had said something like, "It's about time that you realized it. I've been trying to convince you of that for years." He could have said, "Three years of denial, and finally NOW you decide to tell me?! Talk about pi** poor timing!!" but that would have been the wrong tone for the moment, and, again, simply not what the new improved model Spike would say. What Spike DID say goes back to what he said almost exactly what he said two years earlier. "I know you'll never love me..." That was completely within character, especially now that, with a soul, he has finally realized just how much of a monster he actually had been.

"No, you don't, but thanks for saying it" was Spike's "I finally figured it out..." speech. He had at last found the job that he was meant to do, that he was the only one who could do, and he was saying, like Buffy said before, that he wanted her to live for him, just as she had told the gang to do for her. Ironically, Spike is the one who ends up in hell, instead of heaven, the way Buffy did, and he doesn't have anyone searching on his behalf for an Urn of Osiris.

Then again, he DOES have a former hell god who at one time had the power to travel between dimensions. If that power could be somehow restored, if only for a short while... Imagine an updated version of "As you were," with Spike showing up at Slayer Central unexpectedly, accompanied by a very possessive and protective Illyria, and toss Satsu into the brew just to add a little spice. (Potential for really great cat fight there!) Now, THAT would be one hell of an 8th Season finale and a lead in to Season 9, which would center on rescuing LA from hell.

[Veyron]

Personally I think at that particular moment when she said "I love you" she meant it - prior to that she'd of considered the concept of loving Spike as a huge no-no.

Spike was making the ultimate sacrifice - his own immortal life. He'd already made his feelings known to any Big Bad's plans for the end of the world as we know it as there'd be no walking fast food for him and the other vamps.

Of course we know that Buffy and Spike slept together (lucky fella) and even though Buffy didn't acknowledge the fact until it accidentally came out we never heard her deny or confirm the fact (or did I miss that?) - but as we know (well, most of us anyway), love and sex aren't the same thing.

[DrusillaRox]

Ok I am watching episode 2 of angel s5 and I have to say that she did!!! 10 minutes made me a spuffy fan, I cried when I watched him die.....spikes fantastic!!

[Fake Shemp]

Buffy - Why does everybody in this house think im still in love with spike?

- First Date -

[Veyron]

Buffy - Why does everybody in this house think im still in love with spike?

- First Date -

Probably coz you are...

Buffy too :)

[DrusillaRox]

The Bangel Bubble I have been living in for he past 11 years just got burst oh no!

[pernilleborup]

This is something that forever will be discussed between Bangel and Spuffy fans. Bangel fans will say she loved him, but not like she loves Angel. A different kind of love.

Spuffies will claim she did love him. Like love love. And if we look at the overall picture, Spuffies are right.
On the commentary Joss says Buffy should love him when she said it. Truly love him.
The first asked Buffy why she didn't sleep in her dead lover's arms. Highlight lover, and Buffy's reaction to that.
We also saw how she caressed Spike's arm while he was asleep. Buffy had gained her trust and love for Spike in the last couple of episodes.


So in the overall picture: She loved him.

[xgirlanachronism245x]

The Buffy/Spike dynamic is one that probably will be debated forever and ever and ever... you get the point. But instead of looking just at the couple as a unit... we have to focus on both parties involved... and how their characters have progressed.

Spike has always been a special case, when it came to being a vampire. He had more "humanity" without his soul than any vampire we've seen. Season Two and he arrives, not with a plan to end the world... but to save it and live in it because he *liked* humans. As a meal but *liked* them all the same. Buffy, circa Season 2, was teenage lovestruck by her Angelkins. She was developing the mature love she came to have for Angel and that, in some form, will always have for him. The dynamic between Buffy and Spike then wasn't anywhere near as combative/hostile as her interactions with "normal" vampires... it was more of a competition than a real rivalry.

Skip to Season 4, and Spike becomes a muzzled but still not wholly evil snarky male-form of Cordelia. Buffy and the gang feed him, keep him in blood and weatabix, and include him... so to speak... in the Scoobie happenings. Spike grows to have a fondness for Willow (already expressed in Season 3's interaction with her after the Dru breakup) and Tara... even Anya. His character progresses beyond the "happymeals on legs" state of mind and he becomes, essentially, an integral part of the Scooby dynamic. Buffy, coming down of the Angel breakup and entering a new phase of her life with Riley... and college, is even less hostile with Spike than in Season 2... treating him like an annoying nuisance instead of a vampire.

Why hasn't she staked him yet? Because she's grown attached... even if she doesn't want to be.

Here's the part where the relationship gets tricky. Buffy has grown up, learned from her mistakes and progress forward. So has Spike. Buffy's used to having him around them... and he's gets used to being around them. When, in Season 5, Spike professes his love for Buffy... that's where things get crazy. I personally don't think that Spike could have loved her at that time because their relationship hadn't formed anywhere beyond resigned tolerance. I thin he jumped the gun, and because he did so, Buffy freaked out. After the Angel mishap... Buffy, and her friends...Giles included, where very wary about relationships forming between vampire and slayer. It wasn't pretty with Angel (even though it was a completely different situation... and Angel definately isn't as evolved sans-soul as Spike is) so therefore it will be bad with Spike. Though, he did carry out his infatuation a little too far with the Buffybot, he inadvertently assisted with taking Glory down... and with the aftermath of Buffy's death.
But, progressing past the bot... Spike stands up to Glory, protecting Dawn and helping Buffy, even though he didn't have to, wasn't getting paid, wasn't getting anything out of it. He proves time and again that he has become something more than just snarky and sarcastic. He has something to contribute to Buffy and co... and to the world.
Buffy, on the other hand, has dealt with Spike's crush...allbeit not very directly... and grows as a person, assuming the role of mother when hers passes. She becomes more adult and with Riley's departure, she has learned more about what makes a slayer work... and what makes her as a person work. She culminates in sacrificing herself for Dawn and the good of the world... showing that she knows how to love selflessly and loving isn't weakness... it's strength.

Spike works beside the Scoobies in summer preceding Season 6, becoming a main part of the group and a major asset to them. He didn't have to because Buffy wasn't there to see him and he grows to truly love her in her absence. Because she was gone, I believe it gave Spike a chance to branc out and grow as a person while learning about the person Buffy was, and coming to love who that was. He saw selflessness and strength... and he essentially become that and showed that he could love selflessly because he loved Dawn. Maybe not in the way he loves Buffy, but it shows that he has the capacity for it... even without a soul.

So, I may be being longwinded and involved at this point, but the fact that so many of BBers have replied to this topic and given me points to go off of, makes me want to express how I feel about it... and maybe persuade others to look at this topic from a different perspective.

Season 6, Buffy is yanked from warm lovely Heaven by her unknowing friends. People she trusted. She is thrust back into her grave (to dig herself out) and is thrust back into the world she left behind... only now things are more difficult. Money issues, Dawn issues, Willow misusing magic, Giles leaving... all of that piled ontop on mental confusion and lack of motivation... ontop of being a slayer who is supposed to save the world on a daily basis.
She turns to Spike, the one person she knows will love her, she knows this. Even though she says differently, she understands him, even if she is coping with dying and coming back and lashes out at the one person who will be there for her.
I think Spike saw, but didn't really grasp what she was doing when she was sleeping with him. Many people turn to sex as an outlet for emotion